What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

stever said:

The "people" shut down the Port of Oakland's plans to open a coal terminal there. There's one in Seward Alaska that generates a good deal of controversy (and, supposedly, dust). (East Bay Times)

Did SB1277 really block the coal transport or just the proposed increase in coal transport? Looks to me like the state law may be in direct conflict with Federal Interstate Commerce laws.

But Oakland city is now under threat of litigation from the port developers, who say they have a contractual entitlement to move whatever legal commodity that makes economic sense.

And Utah leaders are accusing Bay Area communities of violating the Constitution's Commerce Clause by trying to dictate what commodities may pass through.

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3773403-155/california-lawmakers-enter-the-fray-over

ruking1

Too funny! From what I know of it, both have a more than good chance of winning!

fintail

Today's diesel smoker - local Transit Authority Ford shuttle bus smoking in a manner that would make my fintail blush. Darn all of those Passats and Jettas and Golfs to heck

stever

Good coal link @fintail - the arguments remind me of those up in Seward that my bud up there tells me about (that coal pile is located near the cruise ships, but the dust blows on the small boat harbor). The town is mostly split on the issue near as I can tell, and about the time the greens convince a bunch of people to shut 'em down, another volcano blows and dumps gray ash on top of the black dust.

The arguments also remind me of the crude transport by railcar brouhaha in Oregon.

gagrice

The biggest battle now are the Indians trying to block the Dakota pipeline. This could get ugly as the Feds have approved the pipeline and the Indians are saying it is too close to Indian land. Not sure how they are supposed to get Bakken oil to the refineries?

Washington tribes stand with Standing Rock Sioux against North Dakota oil pipeline

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/washington-tribes-stand-with-standing-rock-sioux-against-north-dakota-oil-pipeline/

http://www.ketv.com/national/5-things-to-know-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline/41448850

ruking1

Are these guys just another example of "political rent"? Pile regulations upon regulations to pass out booty? http://www.wsj.com/articles/regulation-vs-the-american-people-1471645217

stever

Couldn't read pass the headline but looks a bit off-topic and political @ruking1 - and in my experience the ones writing the regs are the ones being regulated.

But that ties in nicely with this downunder headline:

Australian Regulator Sues Volkswagen Over Diesel Cheating (Consumerist)

And this:

"A federal judge gave final approval Thursday to Volkswagen’s agreement to pay $86 million to the state of California for costs related to the automaker’s cheating on emissions tests from its diesel vehicles." (SF Gate)

ruking1

$86 M are for costs??? Most of those $$'s seems like fluff?! I would submit a lot written is at best, not adequately researched! Case in point: how much in cost "reimbursement" did that independent contractor receive, who did the original tes (VW, BMW, etc) that EPA/CARB didn't conduct?

But even more egregious beyond comprehension is that climate change can't even be proved in court!! ?? Even false prosecutorial dishonesty can't even prove the case! ? http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-the-exxon-case-unraveled-1472598472 Now, the smartest thing they did (after being SO stupid) was not bring it to trial verdict. Why? Because if they had lost, it could be then be used as precedence!!

How can you come up with a fluff article like this, https://www.yahoo.com/news/america-turning-away-cars-215300872.html, when (in arrears, 2014) the PVF is the highest ever??! .

I suspect that when the 2015 & 2016 ( registered vehicles) figures come out each will be the highest ever?! http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

fintail

I am sure some of the compensation at CARB can justify 86MM in "costs". That's another question the victims of this heinous crime haven't touched, where is the money going to go? Funny to see Oz jumping in on the gravy train too, might as well, that economy needs diversification/

stever

Car sales go in cycles and it's been a long (~7 years) buying cycle. The sales numbers are getting ready to fall from what I read. And yeah, the last two years have set records.

ruking1

While those sound like logical conclusions, the actual figures (registered vehicleshttp://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx ) do NOT let those conclusions pass even casual scrutiny. In particular, the yearly auto salvage (destruction) figures ( unknown) work in favor OF those conclusions.!?

2009 new car sales were 10. M, 2016 sales are projected to hit 17.5 M. According to figures NON registered vehicles are unknown.

VW diesel news! http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagen-wont-attempt-to-regain-diesel-leadership-in-u-s-many-tdi-models-may-never-return/

xwesx

No surprise there, but still disappointing. The limitations of electric are so vast; I hope to never own one. I think the Californicators forget (or, more likely, just don't care) that we don't all live in congested cities with 20-40-mile commutes. Or, perhaps they are fully aware of this, and their jealousy drives them.

stever

ruking1 said:

While those sound like logical conclusions, the actual figures (registered vehicleshttp://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx ) do NOT let those conclusions pass even casual scrutiny.

I guess the real question of interest around here is what percentage of the fleet will be diesel powered. My guess is that trucks will stay about the same, while the passenger fleet options will remain in the low single digits with no or slow growth (meaning, throw out any VW sales that may be in the percentage before 2015).

@xwesx, you just love the smell of napalm in the morning.

ruking1

Even with the commutes you mentioned, TDI's are vastly superior! (36/37 mpg on 15.6 gal= 577 miles, 33 mpg on 26.4 gal = 871 miles, tanks)

What goes unreported EV's are like having gasser/diesels with fuel tanks DESIGNED to LEAK!!!

So for example, one may want to brag that one has a 300 mile EV range, but depending on many factors, not applicable to gassers/diesels, you might be lucky to have 200 miles on a"300 miles" fill up.

ruking1

stever said:

ruking1 said:

While those sound like logical conclusions, the actual figures (registered vehicleshttp://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx ) do NOT let those conclusions pass even casual scrutiny.

I guess the real question of interest around here is what percentage of the fleet will be diesel powered. My guess is that trucks will stay about the same, while the passenger fleet options will remain in the low single digits with no or slow growth (meaning, throw out any VW sales that may be in the percentage before 2015).

@xwesx, you just love the smell of napalm in the morning.

Indeed that is a good & germane question!

Few entities have ever seemed to published real PVF diesel figures &/or %'s!! Even NHTSA does not publish what % diesels are of the say 2014 Registered Vehicles.

I have guessed those TDI figures to be between 3 and 5%. Of a 2014 274. 8 M PVF,= app 8.244 M to 13.74 M units. These % 's (3 to 5%) are far short of the 10% that was targeted for the alternate fuel category. The ethanol option has been, is, remains a huge disaster! I think most know ethanol are drink able spirits that are chemically poisoned! I doubt the C02 produced in "conversion" iare factored as pollution. How many breweries/ ethanol producers have C02 recapture& sequester systems?

Defacto this is really a trumpeting for increased gasoline use!!!! Like model app 74% MORE! ( 2014 VW Touareg 19/33mpg/ 18,000 miles = 947 gal vs 545.5 gals) so I guess the best way to put it is why do you want to use minus- 42.4 % less when you can use 73% MORE??

25 to 50% diesel % PVF would REALLY drop crude oil demand!

stever

And the overall US diesel passenger fleet? 2% iirc. Maybe pushing 5% with the trucks.

xwesx

ruking1 said:

Even with the commutes you mentioned, TDI's are vastly superior! (36/37 mpg on 15.6 gal= 577 miles, 33 mpg on 26.4 gal = 871 miles, tanks)

What goes unreported EV's are like having gasser/diesels with fuel tanks DESIGNED to LEAK!!!

So for example, one may want to brag that one has a 300 mile EV range, but depending on many factors, not applicable to gassers/diesels, you might be lucky to have 200 miles on a"300 miles" fill up.

I wasn't suggesting that electric was superior in this (or any) scenario, just that they at least *work* under those conditions. Range, speed of recharge, practicality in extreme weather (i.e., anything less than reasonably ideal), etc., are all real concerns for many (and not a minority of) drivers.

xwesx

A little roadway humor..... I saw this on my way home last night:

ruking1

Is that one of "Arnold's" diesel truck conversions?

gagrice

I think Ahnold had the Real Deal H1 Hummers. I know one he had converted to LNG/CNG. I think they used that funky GM 6.2L V8 diesel that killed the diesel market in the USA. May have been improved by the 1990s.

xwesx

ruking1 said:

Is that one of "Arnold's" diesel truck conversions?

Nope, looked like a stock gasser to me. I chuckled at the license plate, and felt it was a good addition to this thread because it is sort of diesel's antipodal in terms of fuel efficiency!

gagrice

The H2 gasser is your basic 16 MPG gas hog. Have a friend with one that traded his Accord in on it. He really likes it.

ruking1

There is a 30% shipping capacity shipping glut!? There is hardly a word from the envio cons? http://www.wsj.com/articles/hanjin-shipping-bankruptcy-further-consolidation-unlikely-to-help-industrys-capacity-glut-1472841698

ruking1

Old & outdated statistic, but 16 container ships emissions = 800 M cars (the emissions of ALL the worlds cars) ! @ that time 7 years ago, there were 100,000 container ships! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html

There is a glut of app 30,000 ships!!!

EPA /CARB are literally going after a drop in a bucket in a Hurricane Katrina scale like flood!? (425,000 affected VW TDI's/274,800,000 US PVF .00155 %. Total insanity comes to mind. Defacto they make the case that .00155% of the PVF is causing ALL of the N0x emissions?

If the worlds cars are included : .00053%.

henryn

Volkswagen Won’t Attempt to Regain Diesel Leadership in U.S.; Many TDI Models May Never Return

http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagen-wont-attempt-to-regain-diesel-leadership-in-u-s-many-tdi-models-may-never-return/

Hinrich J. Woebcken (pictured), president and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, told us, “I wish to make clear that the push for diesel for the brand is done” in North America.

ruking1

I've said many posts back, that the TDI's lead was VW's to lose! Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is normally a head scratcher.

But then,... Is this a EU payback/get back scheme? http://www.wsj.com/articles/europes-apple-tax-ambush-1472599362

Is Apple's $14.5 B close to VW 's $15.3 B ? USA's flagship vs EU's (Germany) ? Aka, there is no EU without Germany, should the UK be successful in divorce?, As a UK leader is supposed to have said: "sooner or later you run out of someone else's money"

So, could this be one structural reason why NEW car sales might be soft in the future? http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-idle-army-americas-unworking-men-1472769641?mod=trending_now_3
(2016 NCS projected to be 17.5 M 2009 NCS 10.4 M )

..." In 2015 the work rate (the ratio of employment to population) for American males age 25 to 54 was 84.4%. That’s slightly lower than it had been in 1940, 86.4%, at the tail end of the Great Depression. ".

Aka, unemployment in 25 to 54 year olds are 15.6%!

The other being 42% of the US population are not employed?

So, are 2% points MORE all that separate us from the "Great Depression" & this 2016 "robust" economy?

gagrice

Very sad day that diesel is no longer available. The Millennials will never have that to look forward to. They will get the torque and have to stop every 100 miles and find a charger. Figure at best 1.5 times as long to get where you are going. Provided you can find a charger when you need it and it works. No more freebies for Tesla and no more buyback either. Now for the fun part. China is the largest maker of EVs. They will soon be selling here in an attempt to dominate the market. So how much pollution will the added cargo shiploads of EVs contribute to CA ports????

To Beat Tesla, China Plans To Boost Electric Vehicle Sales 10-Fold
In doing so, they will wipe out 95 percent of domestic EV makers.

https://thinkprogress.org/china-to-boost-electric-vehicle-sales-10-fold-211053eb032b#.bp1b04rrn

ruking1

Yes, I do like my TDI's ranges! !

It's really a case of enviro cons EPA/CARB : be careful what one wishes for!? Or the US didn't fight the war in Afghanistan for nothing !? (CIA estimates 10 trillion in EV rare earth minerals....) I probably should not leave out the yearly opium supply. Then as you say ship the EV car jobs to ... China!

They say EV is cheaper? They present ZERO figures to back it up. So for example, I pay $.24 or so per kWh (kilowatt hour, in the CA penalty box . ) this does not include the installation of a home/s EV charger/s.m

..."For a 2012 Nissan Leaf, its average rated efficiency of 99 MPGe translates to 34 kilowatt-hours per 100 miles. Just multiply that by your electric cost."...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082737_electric-car-efficiency-forget-mpge-it-should-be-miles-kWh

So to do my 210 miles RT (420 miles diesel @ $ 2.33 @ 33 mpg = $29.65/420=) .07 cents per mile driven . 3 /6 hrs

While a Nissan Leaf is not apples to apples: (420/100= 4.2 * 34 kWh = 34.27 .082 cents per gal plus 1 to 2 days of waiting added to an 6 hr RT! It makes no sense! I'm sure the equivalent size EV CUV would consume much more electricity. So if I lose 100 miles of a 300 miles fill up, the loss for the 420 miles trip is 140 miles. This raises the cost per miles driven to .1088 cents. from .082 cents. The cpmd: EV is 55.4 % more than diesel.

EIA numbers indicate IF the diesel PVF was 23%, crude oil demand would drop a MINIMUM of 23%.http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=23&t=10

But, on the other hand...http://www.forbes.com/sites/timdaiss/2016/09/02/worst-oil-crash-in-a-generation-when-will-it-end-2/3/#24c9b38317c1

$1.65 RUG & ULSD? YEE haw !

ruking1

But wait!!! Are negative interest rates coming? http://finance.yahoo.com/news/feds-janet-yellen-mulls-negative-interest-rates-183711629.html

gagrice

I think one of the big German banks have started charging people to keep their money safe. There is a glut of cash. People are afraid to start businesses. We don't live in a business friendly world any more. The US extorting from VW, the EU trying to extort from Apple. Does not look good.

ruking1

Before I started a small business, 40 years ago. The SBA ( gov agency) as I remember, cited that 75 % of all small businesses failed within 5 years. FF to 2016, I was reading an article that said SBA now puts that statistic @ 84% of all small businesses failing within five years. Well, they (goverment) ought to know, they after all, generate most to all the crushing regulations!
More diesel related : I had read another article saying that there are roughly 60,000 CA affected VW TDI's . So if 85% are mandated to be bought back, theoretically that leaves about 9,000 affected TDI's running around in the state.

For my 2009 VW Jetta TDI, I'd be getting $5,100 over KBB, whether I keep the vehicle, VW doing the TBA/TBD repairs or do the buyback.($12,975, as per VW web site) Repaired TDI's are to receive extra TBD compensation made up of two components.

Essentially, there are no tax compensations/ credits for the affected TDI vehicles. Probably more importantly, if buybacks are done, no tax exemptions or credits to buy the replacements.

The replacement vehicle will probably cost more & a higher tax & probably higher % rate will have to be paid & @ a far quicker interval. For those that don't like the logic here: no harm, no foul. For me, its a loss & in effect " insult to injury". So even with the worst case scenario: loss of power/MPG, after approved modifications, we still need "a" commute car.

For the best case scenario, 1.no mpg/power loss 2. emissions will be warranted 120,000 miles 3. Still have a diesel 4. No CA taxation @ up to 10% due 5. consume $$'s already spent on consumables: alignment, tires, brake pads, rotors, struts, oil, oil filters, etc. 6. we still like & keep the car!

fintail

In terms of emissions regs vs normal passenger cars, I think the eco types have been very business friendly Probably some money flowing under the table. Maybe that glut of cash is the result in broken trickle down economic BS that has brought us so much in the past 30-35 years.

I'd wager a lot of young businesses fail not due to regulation, but because they are simply bad/unsustainable ideas.

houdini1

...or not willing to work their butts off.

kyfdx

Reasons 1) and 1a) there..

Some people have trouble with math (revenue vs. expenses), and others just aren't desperate enough to make their business their #1 priority.

stever

Others fly across the country to buy a used TDI, drive it home (maybe across another country doing so), just to flip it in a few months for $3,000.

fintail

Bootstraps!

I wonder if anyone out there is doing multiple cars. If someone had the idle cash, imagine cashing in like 20, might not be the worst ROI.

ruking1

fintail said:

In terms of emissions regs vs normal passenger cars, I think the eco types have been very business friendly Probably some money flowing under the table. Maybe that glut of cash is the result in broken trickle down economic BS that has brought us so much in the past 30-35 years.

I'd wager a lot of young businesses fail not due to regulation, but because they are simply bad/unsustainable ideas.

Folks might not be old enough to recall (mid 1970's) diesel was given a "free pass" when the lead for passenger gassers was mandated to R/P UN leaded gasoline! If diesel was as bad as they are now whining about, ( it is not) the EPA/CARB giving diesel a free pass was a HUGE mistake. Forty one years ago, they should have mandated 0 to 15 pm ULSD! They could have given adjustments to ithat mplementation along the way.

Actually, the folks going out of "young" businesses ' were the ones who REALLY made & continue to make those wagers!? ( for bad/unsustainable ideas)

henryn

fintail said:

Bootstraps!

I wonder if anyone out there is doing multiple cars. If someone had the idle cash, imagine cashing in like 20, might not be the worst ROI.

I read over in a different forum about a guy who has 5 ready for the buyback. I myself wanted to do two, but by the time I made up my mind it was too late to score a second one.

kyfdx

henryn said:

fintail said:

Bootstraps!

I wonder if anyone out there is doing multiple cars. If someone had the idle cash, imagine cashing in like 20, might not be the worst ROI.

I read over in a different forum about a guy who has 5 ready for the buyback. I myself wanted to do two, but by the time I made up my mind it was too late to score a second one.

Still pondering a high mileage Passat in Indianapolis. Could clear $3500-$4000. Assuming it's still there.

ruking1

Yes! They are fairly straight forward calculations ! In the case of the 2009 VW 2009 Jetta TDI, get it @ KBB $$'s (or less is better) on Sep 2015 values & VW will give KBB values & $5,100. (* however many one gets)

houdini1

What I don't understand is why the used car dealers (non-VW) don't hang on to these cars and take the profit before they sell them...or even why one of their employees don't scoop them up.

kyfdx

ruking1 said:

Yes! They are fairly straight forward calculations ! In the case of the 2009 VW 2009 Jetta TDI, get it @ KBB $$'s (or less is better) on Sep 2015 values & VW will give KBB values & $5,100. (* however many one gets)

If you bought the car after September 2015, you only get $2550 extra

ruking1

Well, given a couple of posts, one reason might be VW would rather let ( VW & non dealers, not part of 650) clear as little $$'s as possible. Another might be, they do not wish to create intentional/non intentional opportunistic money making scenarios due to "diesel- gate".

ruking1

kyfdx said:

ruking1 said:

Yes! They are fairly straight forward calculations ! In the case of the 2009 VW 2009 Jetta TDI, get it @ KBB $$'s (or less is better) on Sep 2015 values & VW will give KBB values & $5,100. (* however many one gets)

If you bought the car after September 2015, you only get $2550 extra

Right you are! You are confirming what I'm saying, in the post after yours! To get $5,100, you'd have to have bought @ least $2,550 under KBB! !

Indeed, short windows opened/ close. BEFORE & after the so called diesel- gate brouhaha broke were the worst/best of times.

So realistically, I am VERY grateful to Edmunds.com for this thread, after the news broke!

Further, "invisible" boundaries seem to indicated a (HUGE) great degree of PRIOR planning went into $$ damage control. ( Even before the news broke)

So, ... if I keep the 2009 VW Jetta TDI : I still have a commute car. I got (new) an $1,300 IRS tax credit. Loan was close to zero %. I get $5,100. I have until Sep 2018 or later, to get TBD EPA/CARB non/approved modifications done. (Ad Blue system, catalytic converter & continued software upgrades, etc.) Emissions mods then should then have 120,000 miles warranties. If I keep it to the end of the warranty, I will have app 265,000 miles. I may or may not lose mpg/torque. VW road assist= app $300 per year 3 yrs=$900. $1,000 = $500 debit/$500 dealer. There are some other (tbd) compensations composed of two parts. What's not to like, ...so far? ((min of $8,300)

I'm also NOT spending CA/FED ST of app up to 10% prematurely (app $2,500) !

What shall we do: get $5,100 up front (plus low KBB) vs $8,300 to 10,800, with car in title, on the road? Older car insurance, registration is cheaper. There is slower depreciation on a 8 year old car.

I can't wait till the 3.0 L VW TDI fixes are announced! Sadly, there was NO zero IRS tax credit. (Violins here) So far, we've got the $1,000's and the additional VW road assist (app $300 * 3 yr). We are loving the ZERO down, ZERO % loan.

Maybe for the next 3.0L VW TDI, there will be negative interest rates %'s & VW credit will pay us the negative interest rate % up front to take the deal?

But then, on the other hand, it's scary to think they are listening to threads like ours/these! ? http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/09/05/brussels-explosive-dieselgate-decision-can-bankrupt-volkswagen-for-starters/#3961263d3b26

The article reminds me of Alex Karras as Mongo in "Blazing Saddles" ..." Mongol, only pawn in the game".

IF serious, could this be a reason for (now) Germany to leave the EU?

The U.K. left because governance came form Brussels (FED, for lack of not following this closely). Defacto, it's death governance by thousands of cuts.

On a more "diesel" topic, VW is not letting moss grow? http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-to-take-19-9-stake-in-navistar-1473089215

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

...

For my 2009 VW Jetta TDI, I'd be getting $5,100 over KBB, whether I keep the vehicle, VW doing the TBA/TBD repairs or do the buyback.($12,975, as per VW web site) Repaired TDI's are to receive extra TBD compensation made up of two components.
...

Actually, when I registered out 2014 Passat TDI, they gave figures for both repair and buy back. The repair option had a bit higher payout than buyback (we have a loan on ours). Is there some additional compensation I've not read about? Or does that apply to Jetta and Beetle only?

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

...

The article reminds me of Alex Karras as Mongo in "Blazing Saddles" ..." Mongol, only pawn in the game".

Sorry, Bazing Saddles fan here. It is "Mongo only pawn in game of life". Mongo, not Mongol.

Sad story, Alex, I think he died young. Just like Dan Blocker (Hoss on Bonanza), now that I think of it.

ruking1

stevedebi said:

ruking1 said:

...

For my 2009 VW Jetta TDI, I'd be getting $5,100 over KBB, whether I keep the vehicle, VW doing the TBA/TBD repairs or do the buyback.($12,975, as per VW web site) Repaired TDI's are to receive extra TBD compensation made up of two components.
...

Actually, when I registered out 2014 Passat TDI, they gave figures for both repair and buy back. The repair option had a bit higher payout than buyback (we have a loan on ours). Is there some additional compensation I've not read about? Or does that apply to Jetta and Beetle only?

I'm really not sure if those compensations apply only to Jetta/Beetle.

While there are some category groupings, the tables are complicated and different for each. . I got the two options figures for the VW Jetta TDI & posted it. You seemed to post the 2014 VW Passat TDI. The additional compensation mentioned were in the 2009 Jetta TDI table and may/not apply to another.

On a certain level, the compensations are a head scratcher. In theory, the 2009 is probably the one needing the most modifications & have been in operation longer. (8 years, 115,000 miles in my case) It should yield more $$'s for the emissions (sin) side than a newer one, than say the 2014 Passat TDI. I would guess a 2014 MY driver does not have near the mileage.

So for me, it hardly makes sense to sell ($12,975), still needing a commute vehicle, because EPA/CARB are in a snit with VW. VW with VW dealers, etc. The CARB, (in my case) bi annual tests will pass the 2009 VW Jetta TDI every time!

Now, when they want to buy me a new TDI $25,000) (must have awaken from a dream) that would make a little more sense!? I'll pay the tax (@ 10% app $2,500) if the IRS gives me a like or more amount tax deduction.

andres3

IN my view the '15 owners are getting cheated the most, as the NADA trade-in values are especially low for '15 models, as some of those probably were only a week to 15 weeks old at the time of the start of the "scandal."

ruking1

It would be good to quantify that. So given the KBB $7,875 for the 2009 VW Jetta TDI over 8 yrs. it's lost $12,125/$20,000 = 7.58 % per year AVG. so if the buyback offer $12,975 is taken, the loss is 4.39% per yr

andres3

Offer on our '15 Sportwagen that stickered over $30K is $22,500 plus restitution.

We paid $28K+taxes and fees. No matter how you calculate it, that's a big percentage loss at $22,500, even for a full year. Fact is, we just had it about 3.5 months though. I feel like we are eating a year's worth of depreciation in 3.5 months thanks to NADA colluding with VW.

I probably wouldn't be complaining if they didn't claim to use "pre-scandal" values. That claim makes me question my question above!

I know I know, we can keep it 2 years basically free of charge. The problem is nothing is free. Keeping it another two years adds additional risks, not the least of which is some negligent driver totaling your TDI prior to buyback. If that happens, I don't want to be the poor sap taking on the Insurance industry to pay off at full buyback value rather than "book" value.