What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

Yeah, I was going to say as soon as you sign, the new vehicle loses over 20%. So if I did the math correctly, 1yr/first yr (3 mo in your case) is 19.64%.

Just these two examples, really illustrates that EPA/CARB are doing the upmost to demonize, vilify and eliminate the TDI markets: to ZERO/nothing/ non measurable PVF !!

While its not my place to tell you what you should do, I'm keeping mine. There is no doubt in my mind the TDI drivetrain is capable of 360,000 miles. It's going strong very near its first major tune @ 120,000 miles . R

stever

Heh, in the good old days the rap on NAPA was that their values were inflated since they marketed heavily to banks, and banks wanted high values to justify giving higher loans for used cars. Ditto insurance companies so they could charge higher premiums on higher book values.

Likely stuff of urban legend but it makes for good conspiracy theories.

ruking1

Another diesel advantage ! Diesel models, while well equipped are normally a step below a decked out (like model) gasser. I'm probably in a minority, but I want the option to order far less, than far more in a gasser (and diesel).

The sub prime auto loan sector has always been dodgy to sketchy at best. It is even more risky given the depression (some would say depression "like", I'd called them over optimistic) US economy. Even you have recently noted the millenniums are cutting down on new auto purchasing. It begs the question: why the lack of following of a far more active & far bigger segment: used autos?

World wide, there is truly an over capacity. Those that fail to tighten up will get hanged by it. While it is probably more than apparent VW was more than fashionably late to the party, they certainly have gotten a bit more religion shoved down the gullet than they wanted.

stever

Easy asset to repo though. Unlike a house.

ruking1

Wel,l your comment certainly dovetails into what I said. And we want to repossess a new or used car, why?

stever

So we can flip it to the next sucker and make a bunch of loan origination fees in the process.

stever

Most VW diesel owners want the buyback, not a modified car (greencarreports.com)

"A buyback may seem like the more sensible option, given that Volkswagen hasn't managed to get any modifications for the 2.0-liter TDI cars approved by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and California Air Resources Board (CARB)."

I think it's the money myself.

stever

And in a case of two wrongs may make a right:

"What the two companies have in common are failures in developing technology to clean up diesel engine emissions. In 2012 Navistar finally gave up on coming up with its own clean-diesel technology and fired the CEO who had led the company down that path for nearly a decade."

Will Volkswagen Diesel Engines Save Navistar? (247wallst.com)

stever

Alzheimer's 'is linked to diesel engine fumes' (Daily Maul, er, Mail).

(And no, I'm not getting paid by the post. )

ruking1

Yes, & life causes death! Let's face it, ya can't die, if ya haven't lived!

To me, all those diesel that have caused even Lucifer (Satan) to stray, needs gas, gas hybrid, EV, E85, ethanol, etc. baselines. Without those baselines, it may as well be published by the National Inquirer. Do you like the stories on space alien sightings?

I mean really, if you're going to start assigning $$'s to hypothetical diesel caused deaths, you should assign $$'s penalties for hypothetical deaths, due to other mentioned transportation fuels.

fintail

A population of 37, and "could". Yep.

I think it's just soothing the greenie bent had by the new generation of Eurodrones, and their inborn desire to ban/censor/regulate.

ruking1

stever said:

And in a case of two wrongs may make a right:

"What the two companies have in common are failures in developing technology to clean up diesel engine emissions. In 2012 Navistar finally gave up on coming up with its own clean-diesel technology and fired the CEO who had led the company down that path for nearly a decade."

Will Volkswagen Diesel Engines Save Navistar? (247wallst.com)

I didn't catch the 60% spike in Navistar. So sad.

houdini1

fintail said:

A population of 37, and "could". Yep.

I think it's just soothing the greenie bent had by the new generation of Eurodrones, and their inborn desire to ban/censor/regulate.

Yes, and it is also true that I "could" win the next $500 Million lottery.

stevedebi

andres3 said:

Offer on our '15 Sportwagen that stickered over $30K is $22,500 plus restitution.

We paid $28K+taxes and fees. No matter how you calculate it, that's a big percentage loss at $22,500, even for a full year. Fact is, we just had it about 3.5 months though. I feel like we are eating a year's worth of depreciation in 3.5 months thanks to NADA colluding with VW.

I probably wouldn't be complaining if they didn't claim to use "pre-scandal" values. That claim makes me question my question above!

I know I know, we can keep it 2 years basically free of charge. The problem is nothing is free. Keeping it another two years adds additional risks, not the least of which is some negligent driver totaling your TDI prior to buyback. If that happens, I don't want to be the poor sap taking on the Insurance industry to pay off at full buyback value rather than "book" value.

22,500 plus around 6K? That isn't bad for a couple year's ownership.

ruking1

+ $ 6,000!... That changes the %'s where did that come from?

andres3

That's restitution the $6K. It is actually more like 7.5K. We'll get just under 30K out the door. But remember, this is in CA, land of the very high sales tax, registration fees, licensing fees, and more.

I don't consider the restitution payment for the car. That is payment for the inconvenience of having to deal with all this mess and/or ruin your car with some lame tune to make it truly green.

gagrice

I would have to get a very good pri

stever said:

Most VW diesel owners want the buyback, not a modified car (greencarreports.com)

"A buyback may seem like the more sensible option, given that Volkswagen hasn't managed to get any modifications for the 2.0-liter TDI cars approved by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and California Air Resources Board (CARB)."

I think it's the money myself.

I would have to get a very good price for my perfect low mileage Touareg to sell it back. I would rather get a slightly diminished engine power and a fat check, maybe $10,000 and just keep mine. Hopefully they will have it all settled before my bumper to bumper warranty is up next August. Like someone mentioned TTL in CA is a big chunk on a new vehicle.

ruking1

With or without approved EPA/CARB "fixes", the CARB biannual inspection will pass the VW TDI's for the foreseeable future! Some to most states will not even smog test them, let alone require retrofits.

So for example, there are app 60,000 CA affected TDI's. A 85% EPA/CARB targeted buy back would leave 9,000 CA affected TDI's on the road. I've read articles where (presumably nationwide) 40% have signed up for buybacks. So IF that is true in California, that would leave 36,000 units. Of the $$'s numbers presented on this thread, none have made sense. Or at least the (mine) 2009 Jetta TDI's did not. Now, it's one thing IF I want to sell it earlier than I had planned. It's a different thing if the FED/State "force" me to sell due to ZERO fault of mine: because they don't like it (a form of eminent domain).

TMI: There seems to be NO official position on disposition of the affected TDI buyback units.

ruking1

Lower gasoline prices? WSJ's more macro view? http://www.wsj.com/articles/driver-led-oil-rally-in-peril-as-stockpiles-grow-1473210829

These aren't the correct numbers, but 3 T miles (past 12 mos) / (2014) 274.8 M PVF = only 10,917 miles per car AVERAGE. People are actually traveling LESS!! (down from 12,000 to 15,000 miles average) IF the 2016 PVF is higher, (say 2% @ 280.3M, the average miles per car are LOWER!

stever

My miles are down this year - work at home, haven't done any road trips for a while, spend hours and hours on the devices. If I lived in town, the car would sit idle even more.

Wait till VR devices get the bugs out. You'll be able to visit Yosemite without the travel hassle.

And the roads are so crowded when you do leave the house (even though no one is driving - the Yogi Berra effect), the average mph is way down and you get better mpg at 50 than at 70.

I don't think the disposition buyback question is TMI. That question should be on the front burner since it may affect what people do with their TDIs. If I'm a committed enviro-con who got a VW diesel to be green, and VW is going to slap a fix on the buybacks and resell them, or worse, send them to Mexico without a fix, maybe I'll keep mine and do an EV conversion on it.

kyfdx

They are restricted from exporting vehicles that don't meet US standards. That's in the settlement.

stever

So it's fix or scrap. That same green is going to be suspicious of the "fix", just as the enthusiast is going to be suspicious of the performance after the fix.

kyfdx

stever said:

So it's fix or scrap. That same green is going to be suspicious of the "fix", just as the enthusiast is going to be suspicious of the performance after the fix.

I'll guess they don't come up with an acceptable fix..

ruking1

The statement really does not answer the question/s of the disposition/s.

On the 2009 TDI fix, the going forward addition of Ad Blue, catalytic emissions systems & software upgrades will probably shave off 1/2 mpg. Torque values going forward, seemed to be relatively unaffected.

Some articles indicate an up to 90% of standard fix. The longer the approval times, the more the days drift into 2019. Another bi annual smog (2018) puts that (my) fix into 2020. That will make the 2009 TDI 12 years old. That (mine) will add a projected 80,000 to 90,000 miles.

fintail

If the greenies practiced what they preach (lololol), they'd be just as critical of the scrap. What a waste.

Still no mention where the money will go either, of course. Those bennies don't fund themselves.

ruking1

fintail said:

If the greenies practiced what they preach (lololol), they'd be just as critical of the scrap. What a waste.

Still no mention where the money will go either, of course. Those bennies don't fund themselves.

That's the good news! If you take the Tesla, the icon of the new EV age, I've read articles where 85 % of those ($75,000 to $130,000) machines will need massive (chassis) replacement @ 60,000 miles or LESS!! How environmentally good can that be when a "cheap" ( my case, $12,360) Honda Civic is designed for @ least 100,000 miles or the first major tune up. It still gets 38 to 42 mpg (this surprises even me) Its on its 2nd 100,000 miles!

stever

Guess you'll have to ask Volkswagen that. (WSJ, may be a paid link)

ruking1

I'm hoping a lot of (scared) folks put 1 to 5 yr old diesels on the market, so I can get a few & keep them 29 years or so. In addition, selling gasser TLC's with app 250,000 miles, seems in retrospect...wasteful. I will try not to make the same mistake with my diesels. Oh that's right, I already have them.

But truly the WORLD has consolidations afoot! Here is but one canary in a coal mine sample http://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-franchisees-are-going-out-of-business-2016-9?yptr=yahoo?r=UK&IR=T:

So with 1.1 B WORLD's PVF, EV volumes (1.5M optimistic) & %'s are not even close! They are barely measurable (.001363) %'s.

It is WORSE ( 335,000 units, wiki) in the US markets. We have (2014) 274.8 M, = .00121905 % of PVF are EV? So what % of US yearly sales are EV ? OMG ... a math question!)

A person can get VERY old..."Waiting For...Godot!" (My sic)

fintail

That waste doesn't count, because it is EV.

I like the VW building EVs in China link - production of each of those in that bastion of environmental and social responsibility will probably result in more pollution than a cheater VW would emit in its lifetime.

ruking1 said:

That's the good news! If you take the Tesla, the icon of the new EV age, I've read articles where 85 % of those $75,000 to $130,000 machines will need massive (chassis) replacement @ 60,000 miles or LESS!! How good can that be when a "cheap" ( my case, $12,360) Honda Civic is designed for @ least 100,000 miles or the first major tune up. It still gets 38 to 42 mpg (this surprises even me)

ruking1

That is very true! They want folks to think glossing over your point gives EV ZERO pollution! ?

China also has Afghanistan's rare earth mining contracts, ESSENTIAL for EV production!

The US et al., didn't invade & devastate that country without "good reason" In addition to app $ 10 T in essential EV & other minerals, Afghanistan grows sustainable organic OPIUM !

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

The statement really does not answer the question/s of the disposition/s.

On the 2009 TDI fix, the going forward addition of Ad Blue, catalytic emissions systems & software upgrades will probably shave off 1/2 mpg. Torque values going forward, seemed to be relatively unaffected.

Some articles indicate an up to 90% of standard fix. The longer the approval times, the more the days drift into 2019. Another bi annual smog (2018) puts that (my) fix into 2020. That will make the 2009 TDI 12 years old. That (mine) will add a projected 80,000 to 90,000 miles.

Those are pretty bold statements on performance and MPG. If it were that easy, why did VW cheat, particularly for the Passat and other urea equipped systems? My wife really wants to keep hers, but we also want to ensure it is the same driving experience. Plus, what are the effects of any changes on longevity. VW (like most German engineering) designs their engines with certain conditions in mind.

texases

One explanation I've read for why they cheated the DEF TDIs was to greatly increase the range between DEF fills, to ~10k, from the expected ~5k without the cheat. The 10k interval would match up with the oil change interval, right?

If that was the main cheat, the 'fix' will have very little impact on driving, just the fill interval. But it could be more than that...

ruking1

Actually, those are normal statements . 2 mpg off 40 mpg= minus - 5%. I also want ZERO mpg/power losses. For me the question is\ remains at what price? at what loss mpg/hp/torque?

The mpg progression has been explained in many articles about " new era of diesels" starting with the MY 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, aka, mpg continued to get better in small increments, while 236 # ft torque has been consistent.

stevedebi

texases said:

One explanation I've read for why they cheated the DEF TDIs was to greatly increase the range between DEF fills, to ~10k, from the expected ~5k without the cheat. The 10k interval would match up with the oil change interval, right?

If that was the main cheat, the 'fix' will have very little impact on driving, just the fill interval. But it could be more than that...

Man, if I could confirm that, we would be one of the only people keeping our 2014 TDI!

And yes, standard maintenance interval is 10K. The def is supposed to last about 18K in the current design.

xwesx

I would be happy to add urea more often. The operating cost of that stuff is practically nil (on a per-mile basis, as I know ruking1 has enumerated a time or two previously), and would remain so even if the fill frequency was twice, 3x, or more what it is now. I think the real question there is.... what effect does urea injection have on the rest of the system components, and does increased use have adverse effects on these?

texases

I don't know, but given that it all occurs in the exhaust system, I don't see how added DEF use would affect the 'upstream' parts.

henryn

All of this, of course, is presupposing that you already have a diesel car that uses DEF. A lot of the affected TDIs do not use DEF, at all.

xwesx

texases said:

I don't know, but given that it all occurs in the exhaust system, I don't see how added DEF use would affect the 'upstream' parts.

No, I was thinking exhaust system, not anything with the engine (or prior). There are expensive parts in the exhaust, though, so effects there could still be significant.

ruking1

I was really one article that said as part of systems upgrade, the catalytic converter (2009) was one expensive component that will be replaced.

A VW recovery story? http://www.fool.com/investing/2016/09/02/volkswagen-resorts-to-big-discounts-to-offset-the.aspx

aka, discounts!

Michaell

ruking1 said:

I was really one article that said as part of systems upgrade, the catalytic converter (2009) was one expensive component that will be replaced.

A VW recovery story? http://www.fool.com/investing/2016/09/02/volkswagen-resorts-to-big-discounts-to-offset-the.aspx

aka, discounts!

I used those discounts and incentives to lease a Jetta SE 1.4T a couple weeks ago.

Got just over 27MPG on my first tank; hard to keep my foot out of the throttle with that mighty-mite engine.

ruking1

The gassers 27 mpg is how much better than the 2015 Jetta TDI's 43 mpg (fuelly.com) ? So sad the 2009 Jetta TDI (mine) gets 40 mpg. I must have misplaced the memo

Wow, imagine that, the 2025's 58 mpg standard is closing in the next heart beat. Hot dog, the best selling FORD F150 posts 16/17 mpg!Yup! It's a great time to be in gassers! Ford's HELPING ! Not to state the obvious, Ford could have come out with the F 150 EV.? It makes one wonder: if the gas hybrid was so "wonderful" ( iteration being the Prius) Why did Ford not make a F150 gas hybrid?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/2017-ford-f-150-gets-engine-transmission-110030930.html

andres3

If you are averaging 40 MPG on the TDI you are either driving like a Prius or have an over-performing TDI?

I don't think my Wife gets 40 unless it is all highway.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

The gassers 27 mpg is how much better than the TDI's 43 mpg (fuelly.com) ? I must have misplaced the memo Yup! It's a great time to be in gassers!

Wow, imagine that, the 2025's 58 mpg standard is closing in the next heart beat. Hot dog, the best selling FORD F150 posts 16/17 mpg!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/2017-ford-f-150-gets-engine-transmission-110030930.html

Most of my driving is in town - not much highway for me. The 1.4T is rated at 29/39 - weren't the TDi's rated at 30/42? Not much difference from the feds, though I know real world numbers can be different.

ruking1

Neither, We get more like 42 mpg on freeways (80 to 85 mpg) . 40 mpg is on one of the most grueling commutes in the nation. 27 miles one way typically taking 75 to 90 mins . I've calculated & posted the avg stop/ go traffic speeds in past posts.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Neither, We get more like 42 mpg on freeways (80 to 85 mpg) . 40 mpg is on one of the most grueling commutes in the nation. 27 miles one way typically taking 75 to 90 mins .

But will you get the same mileage after the "fix"? That's the $64,000 question.

ruking1

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

The gassers 27 mpg is how much better than the TDI's 43 mpg (fuelly.com) ? I must have misplaced the memo Yup! It's a great time to be in gassers!

Wow, imagine that, the 2025's 58 mpg standard is closing in the next heart beat. Hot dog, the best selling FORD F150 posts 16/17 mpg!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/2017-ford-f-150-gets-engine-transmission-110030930.html

Most of my driving is in town - not much highway for me. The 1.4T is rated at 29/39 - weren't the TDi's rated at 30/42? Not much difference from the feds, though I know real world numbers can be different.

Well not to belabor the obvious, but the diesel would also be better "in town" , aka, proportionately.

andres3

Well, in a grueling commute one has not choice but to drive like a typical Prius

ruking1

I think you may have missed the sound of the other hand clapping (42 mpg freeway speeds?). If I was interested in bamboozling you, I'd go 5 mph under right lane traffic (50 mph) & report that way better mpg @ dizzying freeway speeds. Come on guy! But really, don't miss the diesels better RANGE over gassers in the full range of engine/vehicle operations.

Plus the car does not commute in a sea of Priuses. It would be interesting to know what other popular cars got under the same conditions, including Priuses. I've posted this more than once on this thread, so nothing new. It's just another boring diesel snap shot in time.

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

I think you may have missed the sound of the other hand clapping (42 mpg freeway speeds?). If I was interested in bamboozling you, I'd go 5 mph under right lane traffic (50 mph) & report that way better mpg @ dizzying freeway speeds. Come on guy! But really don't miss the diesels better RANGE over gassers in the full range of engine/vehicle operations.

Plus the car does not commute in a sea of Priuses. It would be interesting to know what other popular cars got under the same conditions, including Priuses. I've posted this more than once on this thread, so nothing new. It's just another boring diesel snap shot in time.

My wife gets about 42 on the road at 70 MPH, and around 31 in town on our 2014 Passat TDI. I can't imagine how folks are reporting lower than that on the Jetta, which is a lot lighter.

henryn

My 2013 Passat TDI does around 47 on the highway, at 70 to 75 mph. Mixed driving, maybe 35 or 36. My commute, which is not fun, sees maybe 30 or 31.