What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

Soooooo.... IF it gets there, do you think it might trigger a GermX it t? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel

fintail

No doubt upset not because of actual losses incurred, but because someone else is getting more. These are the same people who will laugh at the US for being too litigious, of course.

houdini1

ruking1 said:

Soooooo.... IF it gets there, do you think it might trigger a GermX it t? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel

ruking1 said:

Soooooo.... IF it gets there, do you think it might trigger a GermX it t? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel

It is certainly possible. You know the cash hungry EU is thinking they have a "fat hog" in VW/Audi.

ruking1

IF Brexit was a shock to the US news, it's proof positive "We" don't see near what is really going on in the EU.

gagrice

Audi has admitted that its 3.0 liter V6 diesel engine was fitted with emissions-control software, deemed as illegal in the United States where the scandal has engulfed VW."

Isn't that where the debate rests on the 3.0L TDI? It is legal as it protects the engines when they are cold. At least that is my understanding. If that is disabled will my TDI be damaged during cold weather? If that is something that VW cannot get around I would expect them to buy back my vehicle and pay dearly for their mischief. If something else I have read is true, many gas engines do the same thing to protect the engines until they warm up. Which explains why our Mazda failed when I took it to the smog station a mile from the house. Then when I drove it for about 15 minutes to another station it passed with flying colors.

gagrice

stever said:

I think drivers in the EU are a bit upset after seeing what VW has agreed to pay owners here.

"The EU Commission has decided that Volkswagen “violated consumer protection laws in most of the EU member states,” Commissioner Věra Jourová said." (Forbes)

No surprise there. The EU is run by nothing but crony capitalist con men. If Germany is smart the will Exit the EU and tell those crooks to pound sand. VW bankruptcy could bring Germany to its knees. The EU is a huge waste of money. Who benefits from it except the over paid pols? The UK will do far better without that albatross around its neck.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html

stever

My smog guy in Boise told me to drive about 15 minutes to get the car warmed up before getting it tested.

Isn't the issue kind of the opposite with VWs? You pass IM because the software recognizes the test and whenever you are just driving around, the emissions controls are disabled. The ICE warm-up before testing isn't a cheat, but is more reflective of normal driving conditions, so you'd have emissions being controlled 99% of the time..

Apple and kites.

fintail

I think a lot of those warm up material in diesels is about moisture in the exhaust and emissions systems. So, the engine will be fine, but the junk behind it may fail prematurely, at least per the makers of the warm up software. If the maker can show that moisture is a legit issue, then the greenie weenie hypocrites have nothing, and can go back to ignoring coal fired power plants and rare earths-based pollution.

Regarding the EU, I suspect Germany profits from it more than anyone - it is the German domination of Europe, this time finally without military idiocy. Its days are numbered, too - too many economic issues and demographic disasters just around the corner.

gagrice

The 2.0L TDI cheats when being tested. The V6 defeats emissions when the engine is cold. That is what I am reading. Same for several other auto makers. Two separate issues from what I have read. The question that has to be resolved on the 3.0L TDI, is the legality of defeating to protect the engine when cold. I think the media went for the throat as soon as the story broke on the cheat. It all got dumped together. VW has kept it separate, as it is two separate issues.

Your smog guy is correct. Most gassers put out far more pollution until they get warmed up. Where is the EPA/CARB when you need them?

stever

It's a 1% issue.

(you can apply that to just about any post in the last 20, LOL)

texases

gagrice said:

The 2.0L TDI cheats when being tested. The V6 defeats emissions when the engine is cold. That is what I am reading. Same for several other auto makers. Two separate issues from what I have read. The question that has to be resolved on the 3.0L TDI, is the legality of defeating to protect the engine when cold. I think the media went for the throat as soon as the story broke on the cheat. It all got dumped together. VW has kept it separate, as it is two separate issues.

Your smog guy is correct. Most gassers put out far more pollution until they get warmed up. Where is the EPA/CARB when you need them?

No, it's much more than 'defeats emissions when the engine is cold':
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a30301/even-more-emissions-cheating-software-reportedly-found-in-vw-diesels/

ruking1

Regardless, VW does not yet have a portal for affected (85,000 ) 3.0 L TDI's.

gagrice

texases said:

gagrice said:

The 2.0L TDI cheats when being tested. The V6 defeats emissions when the engine is cold. That is what I am reading. Same for several other auto makers. Two separate issues from what I have read. The question that has to be resolved on the 3.0L TDI, is the legality of defeating to protect the engine when cold. I think the media went for the throat as soon as the story broke on the cheat. It all got dumped together. VW has kept it separate, as it is two separate issues.

Your smog guy is correct. Most gassers put out far more pollution until they get warmed up. Where is the EPA/CARB when you need them?

No, it's much more than 'defeats emissions when the engine is cold':
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a30301/even-more-emissions-cheating-software-reportedly-found-in-vw-diesels/

Anything that protects my engine is fine by me. Who cares about a couple extra No Oxen floating around in the air? I still contend it is a lot of to do over nothing. Just another diversion to keep the news off our horrible economy and downward spiral.

ruking1

I would agree with your 4 points.

Point #4 with WAY cheaper fuel prices has failed to add many more miles, as the eco cons have feared! Nor has it got the economy moving towards real growth. Anyone can look at the numbers! 2014's is only 2.33% above the 2009's CRASH! ? /5 years is .00467 % miles growth per year! http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

Does anyone remember the BHO administration's Dr. Steven Chu's advancing the administrations $10 per gal US RUG/PUG? FF to 7/8 years in office. Even the POTUS took credit for $1.99 per gal gasoline with much over that being an unfair tax, even as the policies were designed to cut the industry off at the knees!!

gagrice

ruking1 said:

I would agree with your 4 points.

Point #4 with WAY cheaper fuel prices has failed to add many more miles, as the eco cons have feared! Nor has it got the economy moving towards real growth. Anyone can look at the numbers! 2014's is only 2.33% above the 2009's CRASH! ? /5 years is .00467 % miles growth per year! http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

Does anyone remember the BHO administration's Dr. Steven Chu's advancing the administrations $10 per gal US RUG/PUG? FF to 7/8 years in office. Even the POTUS took credit for $1.99 per gal gasoline with much over that being an unfair tax, even as the policies were designed to cut the industry off at the knees!!

I remember Dr Chu very well saying the solution to our addiction to fossil fuel is $10 per gallon gas. Chu also said that coal was his worst nightmare. I also remember when he left the administration he took a high paying job in the coal industry.

Many energy and climate researchers believe that CCS is vital to avoiding a climate catastrophe. Because it could allow the globe to keep burning its most abundant fuel source while drastically reducing carbon dioxide and soot, it may be more important—though much less publicized—than any renewable-energy technology for decades to come. No less than Steven Chu, the Nobel-winning physicist who was US secretary of energy until last year, has declared CCS essential. “I don’t see how we go forward without it,” he says.

https://www.wired.com/2014/03/clean-coal/

gagrice

For those deniers in the audience.

Inventys Thermal Technologies has announced that former US Energy Secretary Dr. Steven Chu has joined its board of directors.
The Vancouver, Canada-based firm is in the process of commercialising an innovative technology for carbon capture and storage (CCS) that significantly less costly than other CCS technologies.
Inventys' technology is based on a ceramic material on a drum that rotates inside smokestacks to capture carbon dioxide from flue gas streams. Dr. Chu, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist, told the New York Times that alternative CCS technologies based on amine adsorption were too expensive.

http://www.modernpowersystems.com/news/newschu-joins-board-of-ccs-firm-4149844

“To mitigate the risks of climate change, we will need to capture carbon from all localized sources, especially coal and natural gas power plants, and also from cement, steel, fuel, and petrochemical plants,” says Inventys Board Member Dr. Steven Chu, former US Energy Secretary and Nobel Laureate. “Inventys is developing technical advances that should dramatically reduce the cost of carbon capture so that it can be deployed worldwide. If successful, our technology could revolutionize carbon capture.”

http://inventysinc.com/2016/05/24/leadership-changes/

ruking1

OMG, "reduce costs" for the down stream(C02 capture) burning of coal natural gas & other sources! ? What a concept ! We had it nailed on this thread some years ago! IF it is worked correctly, Russia, China & any area with coal fired plants can be customers!

Would an 11 speed A/T trans be a good TDI match?http://finance.yahoo.com/news/honda-taking-transmissions-level-madness-174902835.html

3.0 L TDI news !https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/audi-to-suspend-r-d-chief-over-dieselgate-scandal-report/

gagrice

Not sure I can see much advantage to more than the current 8 speeds in the Touareg. As much as I like my Touareg, the closer I get to 4 years and the end of the warranty the more I think about changing vehicles. So I hope they get off the dime. I am sure dieselgate would make trading now a big losing proposition. The $427 O2 sensor they replaced under my extended warranty was a wake up call for me. 11 more months and that would be an out of pocket expense. I hate those.

stever

Chu is an interesting guy who "warns that global warming could wipe out California farms within the century." (Wiki)

There go your heirloom tomatoes.

My roof is already painted white.

ruking1

I've not met Dr. Chu personally, but GO Bears!

CA has been working very hard to relentless over a LONG period of time killing agribusiness! Most places with agri jobs have 25% plus unemployment. The absolutely over abundant harvests are almost hateful to eco con types. They do not want to be the "bread basket" to the world anymore, which was what it was, when I was a child. So there are loads of radical shifts. I think UC Davis will remain the wests "Harvard" of agricultural studies! Go Aggies!https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Davis

gagrice

stever said:

Chu is an interesting guy who "warns that global warming could wipe out California farms within the century." (Wiki)

There go your heirloom tomatoes.

My roof is already painted white.

Worst year out of the last 5 for heirloom tomatoes. I have dumped all my growing pots out and mixed it with cow or chicken manure. Will see if that helps next year. Lots of Plums, pears and apples this year. Plus good zucchini and cucumbers. Oh, and a decent crop of figs.

ruking1

gagrice said:

Not sure I can see much advantage to more than the current 8 speeds in the Touareg. As much as I like my Touareg, the closer I get to 4 years and the end of the warranty the more I think about changing vehicles. So I hope they get off the dime. I am sure dieselgate would make trading now a big losing proposition. The $427 O2 sensor they replaced under my extended warranty was a wake up call for me. 11 more months and that would be an out of pocket expense. I hate those.

I also really (still) LOVE the 8 sp A/T Aisin (Toyota Co), after app 60,000 miles.

I'm unsure as to how, what rpm, speeds & conditions, the up/ down shifting would proceed on an 11 sp triple clutch "DSG". This might be a tough comparison, but it would have to outperform a 6/7 sp M/T & & an 8 sp A/T.

I can't say I blame you ! But on the other hand, I've had more O2 sensor changes on TLC's and other gassers than on any to all (my) diesels.(393,000 miles) Now, that is no guarantee that I won't have the issue in the future, on any to all diesels.

ruking1

Nobody's slapping the CUFFS on this Warren Buffett's stock favorite. Nor is BH likely to sell its stake! Nor are they calling for its "big bank" status' demise. http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2016/09/20/wells-fargo-ceo-faces-senate-grilling-live-analysis/ Even as the CEO admitted he's known of fraud since 2013 ? They literally have thousands (5,300) of people that have committed felony banking fraud ! (That's a lot of cuffs & shackles) The head got 20 M bonuses for 5 years $100M for exceeding her goals! WFB is being fined $185M. Not a SOUL as been arrested!

In contrast, another clue that they trying to kill diesel ! (Nuclear cruise missiles fired into empty tents)

Yup, so far 1 hapless engineer! Yes he's probably ruined for life. The CEO popped a $60 M golden parachute to then ...leave.

So does anyone think Wells Fargo Bank is going to get fined anything close to $14.7 billion ? Most in Congress will do a Barney Frank imitation, flog the air with wet noodles. Then it will disappear into nothingness....Then in some obscure bill, they will refund the WFB any of the fines that were levied.

gagrice

I have read some of the scandal at WFBs. Did Liang claim upper management pressured him? To me stealing people's money from a bank account is FAR WORSE than putting a bit more NOx in the air.

Wells Fargo (WFC) employees have said they were pressured to meet unrealistic sales goals and that they opened the bogus accounts so they wouldn't lose their jobs.

It seems the worse the crime the higher the payout?

He addressed the outrage over Carrie Tolstedt, the head of the division where the fake accounts were created who is set to walk away with $124 million in stocks and options, when she retires later this year.


Same Justice dept, who is going to prison from WF?

Stumpf has refused to step down, despite calls for him to do so.
Stumpf reiterated that "managers and managers of managers" were fired, and for the first time said at least one "area president" was also terminated.
The Wells Fargo hearing inspired a rare burst of bipartisanship from Republicans and Democrats who teamed up to hold the hearing.
"You have done something I've never seen in 10 years: You have united this committee -- and not in a good way," Sen. Jon Tester told Stumpf.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/20/news/companies/wells-fargo-ceo-apology/

ruking1

Lol ! Apologies for under reporting the compensation by $24 million! Or 24% Let's see, 5,300 folks or more involved and ZERO whistleblowers amongst them ?

stever

So, is anyone trying to buy a diesel car out there?

ruking1

I think there were windows of opportunities before and during the Sep 2015 panic to have bought diesel cars. So we shall see what oems will bring more than a symbolic # of 2017 to 2018 MY diesel products to markets. Right now the MB 2.1 twin turbo seems to be the hot diesel.

andres3

I wouldn't mind the 3.0 TDI in A6 form if someone wants to trade one for my Kia.

Michaell

andres3 said:

I wouldn't mind the 3.0 TDI in A6 form if someone wants to trade one for my Kia.

My doctor has one. He's mentioned to me about getting rid of it.

gagrice

stever said:

So, is anyone trying to buy a diesel car out there?

I plan to go take a look and maybe a test drive of the Jeep GC Summit diesel when my local dealer gets one in. So far no 2017 diesels on his list. Out of 51 new GC models in stock, only 3 are diesel and they are all RWD. Who in their right mind would buy a RWD JGC????? Only 8 4X4 in the bunch. I can't find a 2017 GC Summit diesel anywhere in the USA. Of the 16,184 JGC in the US right now, none are diesels. I hope diesel gate has not made the other auto makers gun shy. Still a few GLE 300d models floating around the Country.

ruking1

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

I wouldn't mind the 3.0 TDI in A6 form if someone wants to trade one for my Kia.

My doctor has one. He's mentioned to me about getting rid of it.

What year is it?

I'm not sure exactly when this happened, but in checking the VWGoA online claims portal it is now asking for photos (& upload) of specific documents for the processing of affected TDI's.

VW investors seek $ 9 B? http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-investors-seek-8-2-billion-euros-damages-085740103--sector.html

It was a VERY VERY VERY good couple of days that year!

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

I wouldn't mind the 3.0 TDI in A6 form if someone wants to trade one for my Kia.

My doctor has one. He's mentioned to me about getting rid of it.

What year is it?

I'm not sure exactly when this happened, but in checking the VWGoA online claims portal it is now asking for photos (& upload) of specific documents for the processing of affected TDI's.

VW investors seek $ 9 B? http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-investors-seek-8-2-billion-euros-damages-085740103--sector.html

It was a VERY VERY VERY good couple of days that year!

The A6 is only a year or two old.

ruking1

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

I wouldn't mind the 3.0 TDI in A6 form if someone wants to trade one for my Kia.

My doctor has one. He's mentioned to me about getting rid of it.

What year is it?

I'm not sure exactly when this happened, but in checking the VWGoA online claims portal it is now asking for photos (& upload) of specific documents for the processing of affected TDI's.

VW investors seek $ 9 B? http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-investors-seek-8-2-billion-euros-damages-085740103--sector.html

It was a VERY VERY VERY good couple of days that year!

The A6 is only a year or two old.

Does he want to sell his DEFECTIVE ( ) TDI?

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

I wouldn't mind the 3.0 TDI in A6 form if someone wants to trade one for my Kia.

My doctor has one. He's mentioned to me about getting rid of it.

What year is it?

I'm not sure exactly when this happened, but in checking the VWGoA online claims portal it is now asking for photos (& upload) of specific documents for the processing of affected TDI's.

VW investors seek $ 9 B? http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-investors-seek-8-2-billion-euros-damages-085740103--sector.html

It was a VERY VERY VERY good couple of days that year!

The A6 is only a year or two old.

Does he want to sell his DEFECTIVE ( ) TDI?

I haven't talked to him about it in a few months.

stever

Volkswagen least polluting diesel car brand in Europe, study shows (rt.com)

"The report revealed that under the new European exhaust emissions standard called Euro 6 rules, German manufacturer Volkswagen was selling among the cleanest diesel vehicles.

“Volkswagen is not the carmaker producing the diesel cars with highest nitrogen oxides emissions and the failure to investigate other companies brings disgrace on the European regulatory system,” says Greg Archer."

ruking1

As I said some time ago, the auto industry wants to keep it narrowly focused to VW ONLY! I've also been saying that the majority of the pollution (N0x in this context) has been, is, & will remain being caused by gassers & others! All the other (US market) players want to keep the spotlight so away from themselves! One year of news later, cracks are starting to show.

The same disgrace should be equally applicable to EPA/CARB. I'll be damned if I will sell my cars because EPA/CARB completely & utterly FAILED to do their jobs! It should have been apparent to all blind oem's that EPA/CARB would NOT check. Indeed for gassers, that has been the SOP for years ! You could see it as far back as 2004 Toyota Prius mpg fiasco! (60 C/50 H mpg vs 43/40 mpg)

They appear to want to shame/blame TDI owners not wanting to sell. The truth is if they were actually checking, THEY wouldn't have this problem. I say if they want fairness, buy my "affected" car for FULL prices paid & taxes incurred on the next car!

stever

There was more in the article - "Only a recall of all harmful diesel cars will clean up our air and restore credibility in Europe’s legal system,” said Greg Archer, clean vehicles director at T&E."

ruking1

stever said:

There was more in the article - "Only a recall of all harmful diesel cars will clean up our air and restore credibility in Europe’s legal system,” said Greg Archer, clean vehicles director at T&E."

Again, the logic is structurally practically deficient !

In US markets emissions studies in the most polluted place in the (US market). nation, Southern California shows/demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt, that most N0x emissions are caused by gassers, (being 97 to 95% of the PVF.) A fair amount to a large # &% of N0x emissions are also caused by government exempted caveats ! It is widely acknowledged that even IF the PVF, passenger vehicle fleet caused ZERO N0x emissions, the government CAVEATES will EFFECT N0x NON compliance . N0x standards will STILL NOT be met!!!!!!

stever

I understand the diesel passenger fleet is something like 2 to 3% gasses, 5% tops. Any idea on the diesel/gasser ratio there?

SoCal'a air quality is a lot better than it was in the 60s and a lot of that can be attributed to cleaning up gassers.

texases

Europe's more like half, isn't it?  Much bigger issue there. 

fintail

I have this funny feeling that overall, French diesels are the most noxious (many of them will be little vans and small commercial vehicles which are known to belch smoke) - and I have to be leery of any statement from a member of a "campaign group". Sounds like another slimy hypocritical NGO most intent on keeping compensation healthy for its leadership, and not being willing to sacrifice its own energy use while calling on others to give it all up, And of course, trucks and ships will continue to get a pass for the infinite future. RT is also kind of an iffy source, unless one likes Stalputin and Manafort

ruking1

stever said:

I understand the diesel passenger fleet is something like 2 to 3% gasses, 5% tops. Any idea on the diesel/gasser ratio there?

SoCal'a air quality is a lot better than it was in the 60s and a lot of that can be attributed to cleaning up gassers.

For the discussion @ large that is both telling and totally irrelevant ! Why is it telling? Emissions are NOT cured are they ? They STILL FAIL standards horribly, don't they? There are more gas/ethanol, gas hybrids, E85, EVs than there EVER were, aren't there??? These are only a few examples. The proof is in the pudding, not in the rhetoric?

stever

texases said:

Europe's more like half, isn't it?  Much bigger issue there. 

It was 58% in India. Most of the diesels in small cars are being phased out there it sounds like. (India Times)

ruking1

Why do we discuss India/EU when US markets diesels are the only ones that can be sold here? It would be a way different story if the US market adopted world/EU standards! Just that alone would make diesels here far cheaper than they already are ! My guess, the TDI population would NOT be too much higher. All would be fine with me. The cost of US TDI compliance has to be spread over WAY lower # of units & %'s. Just these little known facts alone are Grand Canyon chasms...... HUGE!!!!!!!

Is there anybody out there that seriously doubts this? I have absolutely no problem with that amount of incredulousness. All I need you to do is to pay for and let in my next EU specification TDI order from the German factories & subsequent operations fines, etc. for the next ...30 years ! Not so incredulous after all eh? Imprisonment is a probable outcome also. You could be my proxy!

ruking1

From time to time, we have talked about the real gross polluters, which are given total government emissions & many other exemptions, by the way. Some entertaining things have been happening! http://www.wsj.com/articles/as-hanjin-foundered-former-chairwoman-abandoned-shares-1474451928 ignorant housewife my A---! Anybody else notice that those kind of folks totally outlast the smarter dead people ?

Poor ports of Long Beach & Loz Angelez! -4.3 % imports http://www.wsj.com/articles/imports-decline-at-southern-california-ports-1473965514 yay+ 10.5% exxports !

She's doing the Sergeant Schultz ?

stever

India probably doesn't have much effect, but we were already getting spillover diesels from the EU. If those dry up, then it's really going to be unlikely that the US gets more diesel passenger cars.

(India does make Jags and Land Rovers via Tata, but the factories and maybe the R&D are mostly in the EU still).

ruking1

Ignoring the main point, U S market TDI's?

stever

Are there any new TDIs currently on sale? Not much of a market.

Hm, be interesting to see analytics here on how many people are researching diesel vehicles. Usually the most heavily researched vehicle is the CR-V and I never dug much deeper than that. The F-150 is second, iirc.

ruking1

Do you want to sound like you are surprise? It's apparent to even people who don't follow diesel that they are trying to kill diesel!

stever

You say that like it's a bad thing.