What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

fintail

I assume mostly trucks or SUV/CUV things. Their diesels don't play well in the developed world. They are outsold massively in Europe, and their diesels don't exist in any real numbers at all in NA.

ruking1

In terms of both consumption of 1. barrels of oil & 2. finished gasoline products, the eco cons make huge & defacto siren calls for much MORE oil & gasoline consumption rather than less! In fact when you add EV realities & mandates, they require even more coal & natural gas!?

Indeed because diesel has far more areas where stocks can come FROM, in addition to less consumption per gal: (33 mpg vs 20 mpg= 65% more) gasoline consumption is far more, than even far more!

Again this gets back to the refinery ratios of a barrel of oil: (EIA.gov) gasoline 19 gals/ ULSD 12 gals. So if 19 gals of gasoline are produced & used from a barrel of oil & if 12 gals of ULSD is not consumed, by a diesel car for example., where do the anti diesel folks think that it goes?

So for example: 20 mpg versus 33 mpg, using the refinery output of 19 gal gasoline /12 gals, ULSD uses LESS fuel & goes MORE miles (380 miles vs 396 miles) So, ...for 1 barrel of oil, a gasoline and diesel cars can go 776 miles. It will take TWO (2) barrels plus of oil for a gasoline car to go THE SAME (776 miles) so now it's easy to see why EU is more than 50% diesel/gasoline! The diesel/gasoline ratio consumes WAY LESS barrels of oil!

ULSD can also be produced from natural gas, & a plethora of recycle process waste steams. This decreases further the demand for barrels of oil. It also puts to work huge huge huge volumes of natural gas that is normally flared off in oil production processes.

So the huge question that the environ cons really want you to stay off of: why our US market consumption is more like 95% plus gasoline engines? A 50/50 gasoline/ULSD would literally & figuratively decimate barrels of oil consumption by @ least half, & for even more miles! Keep in mind the eco cons defacto are saying burning far more is BETTER than burning far less!

henryn

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-volkswagen-scandal-anniversary-1002-biz-20160929-story.html?ref=yfp

Scandal vehicles on average have been on the market for 396 days.
In contrast, nonscandal VWs on average have been on the market 91 days, which itself is about 16 percent longer than the average of 78 days for a control group.
"So while dealers are raising prices on scandal vehicles, the scandal cars still aren't selling," Klein said. "Nonscandal VW vehicles, while selling slower than the average, are still turning over at a reasonable clip."

Am I missing something here, or is this just nonsense? The “scandal vehicles” cannot be sold, period. That renders the above nonsense to be …, well, complete nonsense.

texases

You're right - complete gibberish.

ruking1

It certainly can be gibberish! One almost has to know make & model, etc. to get the $$'s amounts, PRE EPA/CARB approvals.

Right now the buyback option are $12,975. The option to keep the 2009 Jetta TDI will be $5,100 & two, tbd amounts. Emissions TBD fixes with 120,000 miles emissions warranty. round out this option.

ruking1

Either I've missed it, or they are putting the finishing touches on it : but 2016 TDIs will probably be retrofitted and sold as new,used, or leftover new inventory. Jj

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Either I've missed it, or they are putting the finishing touches on it : but 2016 TDIs will probably be retrofitted and sold as new,used, or leftover new inventory. Jj

When I leased my Jetta 6 weeks ago, my dealer was hoping to release the TDIs they had on the lot for sale once the agreements were in place.

Of course, the dealer is going to get somewhere between $1-2 million for the inconvenience..

ruking1

Coal will (in all likelihood) remain part of the energy mix (40% or more) http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/world-s-largest-carbon-capture-plant-to-open-soon/?ref=yfp

Diesel cars will remain part of the mix, currently @ 3 to 5% of the PVF. In 2014 that was 274.8 M.

The refining of a barrel of crude (42 gals) yields ULSD 12 gal , gasoline 19 gals., per EPA.gov info. Very clean ULSD can be refined from many sources: like coal, & natural gas.

But at the moment, there is a HUGE glut of (refined & stored) gasoline! I can't wait till the prices fall past $1.99! The local prices are $2.65 ULSD, $2.67 RUG.

stever

I filled up yesterday for $1.99. It was likely a dime cheaper at my usual spot. Last time I looked, diesel was around $2.19.

xwesx

Sadly, Tok (a little village on the Alaska Highway) was only five cents less than Fairbanks when I went through last week.

Michaell

With OPEC agreeing to restrict production, won't prices eventually creep up for all types of fuel?

texases

Nothing will happen until November, when the actual agreement is supposed to be hammered out. But my bet is that no real reductions will occur, they're already arguing about what the starting point is for reductions. We've seen 'agreements' come and go many times with OPEC.

And even if they do agree, there's a huge amount of extra oil in storage. Price increases will be slow to come, is my guess.

stever

Surprised that Tok isn't on a par with Canadian prices, @xwesx. My bud is heading out in a couple of weeks but may just fly this trip. I never can seem to have a good free block of time to ride along anyway.

Re OPEC, I bet the idle frackers are talking to their bankers already.

[edit] Not only that, but 2.4 billion bbls of oil were just discovered off Alaska. It's boom times again baby. (WSJ)

xwesx

stever said:

Surprised that Tok isn't on a par with Canadian prices, @xwesx. My bud is heading out in a couple of weeks but may just fly this trip. I never can seem to have a good free block of time to ride along anyway.

Re OPEC, I bet the idle frackers are talking to their bankers already.

Canada is always higher, but not by much this time. I would estimate that the price we paid in Haines Junction was about $3.20 per gallon (in US dollars). I want to say it was ~1.15 CAD per liter.

Prices we paid in Oregon and Washington really weren't much different than Alaska pricing. We may have paid as much as $0.30 less per gallon in some places, but paid the same as Alaska (or more) in others.

ruking1

Refineries pretty much run @ some level of full capacity. Currently, there are 141 with 2 idle for 139. http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pnp_cap1_dcu_nus_a.htm

TMI or perhaps more instructive might be "local" refineries.

On other related interests the " gas" might be leaking out? http://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-auto-sales-fall-september-134101112.html

ruking1

Gasoline/ULSD fuel EIA.gov tidbits. http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

The following are purely my ?'s & conjectures.

The EPA/CARB directed buybacks are based on 475,000 (US market, ballpark affected) TDI's. EPA/CARB sets goals of 85% buyback (403,750). There are literally zero, zip, nada information, articles, words from VW on what will happen to the buybacks.

What will (the collective) THEY do with the buybacks? The most logical actions seems to be slap on the various TBD emissions recalls. Offer them then for resale.

Shooting them in the (diesel) head, then sending them to the bone yard will be 12 years to 25 years AVOIDABLE environmental disaster ! This is not even to mention the utter waste of $$'s, etc.,etc.

If the EPA/CARB buyback goals are realized; on app 403,750 units, the various governments, government agencies will NOT receive the plethora of monies: title, retitle fees, sales taxation, registration , smog test revenues, and probably a whole lot of other things that I'm probably missing.

ruking1

A mere coincidence there are all these diesel activities @ Ford, Chrysler & now GM? Here is a 2017 GM 910 # ft of torque...MONSTER!! https://www.yahoo.com/news/torque-war-gm-fires-back-141231905.html

Recall that fully 6.87 M (50% of the 5% diesels, 2014 274.8 M) of the PVF are diesel "light trucks"

ruking1

Slow diesel news day! I've used up almost all of two $500 VW dealer only cards (sans$70.00). I need to get on the stick, to use a remaining VW debit $500) Visa card (expires in 1/17).

Still not a peep on how EPA/CARB-VW intends to settle affected VW Touareg TDI's! It (mine) would be another KEEPER, unless the settlement terms are significantly better (monies & % wise) than the 2.0 L TDI's "steal" back.

So for example, The VW (gun to the head offer) is NOT an unreasonable offer (2009) IF one were planning/wanted to buy a new/used car this year or @ the settlement date, ...anyway. Essentially, (2009) one gets $5,100 emissions penalties & TBD amounts, OVER KBB @ 9/2015.

The monies in (to be) both cases do NOT address the reason/s why either to both cars were bought: to solve (my) transportation tasks.

In the "macro" of things: natural gas prices ? http://www.wsj.com/articles/what-natural-gas-prices-are-telling-us-1475685957 Natural gas auto products make all the sense in the world, especially for a pre-calculated route.

For the foreseeable future and hopefully the life cycle of the product, I'm glad for a natural gas dryer!

No gasoline, E85, ethanol, hybrid, EV or etc., etc., joy? http://m.fleetowner.com/blog/big-rigs-big-costs

New Big Rig 2017 sales might hit a record low, from a 2016 29% decline. The 2016 sales is projected@ 230,000 units. http://www.wsj.com/articles/truck-orders-sink-in-september-1475686897

ruking1

C&D's latest take? http://blog.caranddriver.com/emission-checks-majority-of-2-0-liter-tdi-owners-sign-up-for-settlement-yes-already/

ruking1

Everybody's (Takata) doing it (bankruptcy filing) http://www.wsj.com/articles/air-bag-maker-takata-weighs-u-s-bankruptcy-filing-1475841507

texases

ruking1 said:

C&D's latest take? http://blog.caranddriver.com/emission-checks-majority-of-2-0-liter-tdi-owners-sign-up-for-settlement-yes-already/

It's hard for me to see why an owner wouldn't sign up. They still can decide whether to keep it, or get the buy-back money. It'll be interesting to see how many decide to keep it.

ruking1

When all the required documentation is gathered & uploaded, affected TDI sign up takes all of 2 mins, 5 mins tops.

The stated EPA/CARB goals are 85% buyback (403,750 units), with 15% keep.

I'm guessing the real world keep percentage will be much higher. Essentially the affected TDI's are great cars.

It's not the buyers business & fault that one side was asleep @ the regulatory wheel with some lower to upper level VW types pulling the "Hogan's" antics. It's not our business also that now the Justice Department wants to scam huge amounts & %'s of money from VW corporate (nations/states/ unions/ pensions ownerships).

The "B" snit dramas are really between (DOJ) EPA/CARB with VW Corporate (& big $$ lawyers).

Cheap CA state USED EV's, speaking of prices dropping like the proverbial rocks? http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/cheap-electric-vehicles.html/

The STILL "unacceptable" issues are the EV's 13% loss (fuel) of equivalent mpg, after a period of a year to 3. & logistics. Suffice to say, incrementally greater electrical grid consumption keeps COAL all the more viable and for many more decades, if not generations. Electrical grid products, as well as solar & wind producers have HUGE HUGE HUGE inefficiencies!! So they would have us more dependent on greater known inefficiencies?

It is almost needless to say, because this is a diesel thread that; diesel haters would find 13% losses totally unacceptable. IF diesels lost 13% equivalent mpg in a year to three. In my affected cases, that would be: 40/34.8 mpg & 33/28.71 mpg. I'm unclear why these equivalent EV fuel losses are not the basis for successful lawsuits.

Might I jog memories of the 2004 Toyota Prius gas hybrid brouhaha. This brouhaha triggered with 14% or less mpg losses.

andres3

Hmmm.... Does the EV become more inefficient with time, or simply become lower capacity. In other words, does the maximum charge and use of the battery go down (equivalent to a smaller gas/diesel tank). Or is it really using up the same amount of energy with less range.

ruking1

Actually those are good questions. From what I've read it's more about diminished range due to the batteries not being able to hold a full charge when new. It does also use same amounts of energy.

C&D posted this very detailed article. http://blog.caranddriver.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-vw-diesel-emissions-scandal/?ref=yfp

ruking1

http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/8-cars-40-plus-mpg.html/

8 "gasoline" cars that get 40 (+) mpg. I'm not sure of the logic of why two diesels!?

gagrice

ruking1 said:

http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/8-cars-40-plus-mpg.html/

8 "gasoline" cars that get 40 (+) mpg. I'm not sure of the logic of why two diesels!?

Just to show, you can have luxury, performance and high mileage, just not using gasoline.

ruking1

The 2009 VW Jetta TDI had a check engine light go on. The engine went into limp mode. Drove to the dealer where they found the air actuator malfunctioning.

We also changed the DSG filter & oil for app 60,000 miles per change (40,000 miles recommended) .

It now seems back on track. We used up all the VW GW cards.

ruking1

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bad-news-chevy-ram-sales-133500055.html

No gas hybrid, EV or E85 joy for the PU "light" truck segment! ? Why? To state the obvious, NONE of those combinations moves the mpg needles near enough to the 2025 mpg goal. The segment is one of the most profitable. GM is ONE of the biggest world auto OEM's The projected 2016 sales = 17.5 M .

Even ISIS doesn't use a lot of American made PU trucks.

ruking1

http://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-sales-decline-2016-10?ref=yfp

This article's reasoning might be another reason why EV might be dying. This is another advantage diesel, whomever steps into it.

fintail

Unless we have a quantum leap in battery tech, EVs are going to need serious public sector subsidy to become dominant.

ruking1

This is just one of many examples, but police vehicles, fed, Indian, state, county, local are gassers . (Ford Explorers, large sedans). I'm sure the mpg is 20 mpg or less. They are seriously "upgraded" for grueling range of operations. It is absolutely NO accident, they do not specify hybrid or EV.. So not even the governments want gas hybrids, EV, E85.

Washington DC (city operations) biggie wiggies are almost always seen (on TV) in bigger than Tahoe sized gas vehicles !

gagrice

ruking1 said:

CA police vehicles are gassers (Ford Explorers). I'm sure the mpg is 20 mpg or less. They are seriously "upgraded" for grueling range of operations. It is absolutely NO accident, they do not specify hybrid or EV.. So not even the governments want it.

The local sheriff's bunch hang out at one restaurant. Three to five Explorers will be out there idling while they have a meeting. Keeps all the electronics going and the vehicles cool. I doubt they ever get close to 20 MPG. They should have Grand Cherokee diesels.

ruking1

Yes! In 2009, the building inspector came by the house to meet with my contractor. I personally didn't think his sign off it would take long. But, I was surprised to see him keep the city car idling! One hour & 1/2 later, he left. Sign off took all of 2 mins.

A friend, I have known since childhood used to drive & body guard the SF police chief.. Getting him started on operations could take several hours!

ruking1

One can draw many inferences from this article. http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/10/09/gas-mileage-automakers-now-victims-own-success/91819038/?ref=yfp

Interesting was the avg price of a 2016 vehicle @ $34,000 vs (2004 Honda Civic) sub $12.5k ($12,364) a difference of $21,500/13 years=$1,654 per year.! Or 13.2% per year!! Inflation year to year was not even close to that!

Now keep in mind in 2004, the avg age of a Honda Civic owner was 44 years old. Since that time, we have hardly been through a "steam rolling" economy.

Interestingly enough, not that there were no gasser improvements (power or mpg) improvements, but TDI improvements were even better! The MB 2.1 L engine puts out 369# ft of torque. Depending on which (luxury) auto platform application can easily put out 36 to 50 mpg. Again, advantage diesel.

texases

Why compare the average price to a Civic? Civic vs. Civic would be the right comparison.

ruking1

In the diesel mpg context, it makes sense. There are many more inferences that can be drawn ! You can, you know draw others! Again, advantage diesel.

For one, the article talked of average price. Two, Hondas are known for good (gasser) mpg. Just looking at the latest fully.com, with current 2016 Civic mpgs being good indeed: mpg are not much better than my more historic (12/13 years/180,000 miles) 38 to 42 mpg, with torque virtually unchanged. All this is despite pretty "tweaky" upgrades, i.e., normally aspirated engine to turbo, etc. The verdict is still out on the CVT.

Well, then do! You've got the 2004 Civic #'s!

In SLOW diesel news, I just heard in Norway, app $10. ULSD per gal.

ruking1

This article, https://www.yahoo.com/news/powersteering-2017-honda-accord-review-222242507.html on an absolutely excellent 2017 Honda Accord midsized sedan might explain the US market shift to CUV's. This is good/might be bad news. Of course, I'm sure VW knew this before they decided to make the segment even more competitive with the 2012 VW Passat (Am product, & assembled in Chattonoga, TN)

So one note, IF a Honda Pilot/Acura MDX gets 1 mpg less.(@20 to 22 mpg)...., it's almost a no-brainer trade off, IF a CUV fits one's lifestyle better. It may further explain (one reason) why a CUV TDI (one @ 33 mpg, another @ 36 mpg) might really occupy a sweet spot in the ongoing shift TO CUV's, from a serious DECLINE in the midsize sedan segment. This might also make a used MB "d" midsized sedan a great buy. Not that a new one isn't.

I think it's also telling that there are no to very few published articles about the composition of the passenger vehicle fleet, 75% large cars to " light "trucks, 25% "compact cars". Indeed so called "compact" cars have'nt really been "compact" for decades. I wouldn't be surprised if the compact segment has shrunk, i.e., less than 25% of the PVF.

Here might be one reason why electric vehicles EV delivery vehicles have not caught on ? (VW) (union opposition) Why are delivery vans important: EV range=repetitive routes? It's funny how enviro cons never take on unions?....
..."DHL has a tailwind of sorts because electric vehicles only require about 10 percent of the manpower for assembly that conventional vehicles do because of the relative simplicity of an electric drivetrain."...
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/10/10/vw-angry-dhl-make-own-electric-delivery-van/?ref=yfp
& OUTSOURCING

stever

Honda's CVTs have a good rep - better than Nissan's although Nissan seems to have gotten the bugs out of theirs finally.

UAW link for you.

ruking1

Are you getting the shaft (extra) from VW? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/cvt-versus-automatic-transmissions-whats-better/article584943/

Cheaper than CVT too!?

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091112073550AALoePY

ruking1

Some next generation EV's. http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/5-electric-vehicles.html/

The ranges (186 to 200 miles) for commutes (ours-15,000 miles per year) vs 2009 Jetta TDI (40 mpg-550 to 580 miles) , puts fueling @ 81/ 75 vs 28/26 stops. (188% more EV fuel stops)

EV logistics are not new habits that I would like to get into, not to mention the extra time & costs. Many folks on this thread used to complain that diesel fuel stations were like looking for a needle in a hay stack.

I'm not sure of the exact point when the EV 12.5% fuel range degradation kicks in. When it does, the metrics change from 81/75 to 92/86 fuel stops. This is not even counting the "environmental" conditions degradations. (winter, spring, summer, fall: desert to city, etc.)

Well this is moot, if the cities that I happen to travel to will let me put in solar arrays & batteries 2 @ $30,000 each = $60,000.

One of my South Tahoe, CA neighbors is a developer/building contractor. We were talking one day, I asked them about how much it would cost to put solar arrays on each of our properties. and he just about had a coronary ( Barney Frank lead in). So.... how about them Cubbies? Of course, there are the 4 story tree issues...

andres3

ruking1 said:

Some next generation EV's. http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/5-electric-vehicles.html/

The ranges (186 to 200 miles) for commutes (ours-15,000 miles per year) vs 2009 Jetta TDI (40 mpg-550 to 580 miles) , puts fueling @ 81/ 75 vs 28/26 stops. (188% more EV fuel stops)

EV logistics are not new habits that I would like to get into, not to mention the extra time & costs. Many folks on this thread used to complain that diesel fuel stations were like looking for a needle in a hay stack.

I'm not sure of the exact point when the EV 12.5% fuel range degradation kicks in. When it does, the metrics change from 81/75 to 92/86 fuel stops. This is not even counting the "environmental" conditions degradations. (winter, spring, summer, fall: desert to city, etc.)

Well this is moot, if the cities that I happen to travel to will let me put in solar arrays & batteries 2 @ $30,000 each = $60,000.

One of my South Tahoe, CA neighbors is a developer/building contractor. We were talking one day, I asked them about how much it would cost to put solar arrays on each of our properties. and he just about had a coronary ( Barney Frank lead in). So.... how about them Cubbies? Of course, there are the 4 story tree issues...

Speaking of South Lake Tahoe, do they still have the ludicrously under-posted speed limits on I50 at like 50 MPH? I could take those curves at 50 MPH during a blizzard; let alone getting a ticket the last time I was there on a sunny Summer Labor day weekend. This was on the 4-lane section east of South Lake Tahoe; not west. I want my money back from the Nevada Highway Patrol. It was so cheap, it wasn't worth fighting. About 1/4th the cost of a speeding ticket in CA.

ruking1

The answer is still yes. We use that route a lot, pretty much year round. Did it happen in the twisties, (hiding in blind curves w/radar gun) or in the long straight down hills (overlooking Carson City or Costco ) ?

ruking1

While this is not diesel related, way bigger R/D fish to fry, it might serve as the backdrop to what is actually happening IN diesel. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-12/toyota-explores-research-and-development-partnership-with-suzuki?cmpid=yhoo.headline&yptr=yahoo

I'm guessing the EV efforts has to start the China mining efforts in Afghanistan ?

andres3

ruking1 said:

The answer is still yes. We use that route a lot, pretty much year round. Did it happen in the twisties, (hiding in blind curves w/radar gun) or in the long straight down hills (overlooking Carson City or Costco ) ?

Not sure exactly where it was, but it seemed like it was right after the last twist just before a long straight going uphill to the highest crest in the area, and then there's downhill a long way after that. Oddly, they were at the top nabbing people going 70 uphill. If I get tickets for 70 MPH on a 4-lane highway I'll get tickets all day long. My radar detector would have prevented the stop, but someone in my passenger seat decided to unplug it to charge up the navigator unit. Needless to say, I stopped by the local Radio Shack shortly thereafter to buy a 2 plug conversion from 1 car adapter power port.

50 MPH makes sense on that road during a snow storm; it is indefensible on a nice sunny dry day.

ruking1

Yes, those areas were what I was trying to nail down . Sorry to hear they gave you a ticket there.

But you are another that has an idea of the environments that make up the 40 mpg- 09 Jetta TDI/36 mpg- 14 MB GLK 250 BT/33 mpg- 12 Touareg that I post.

"As good as that is" over like gasser competitors, it's a no brainer to do even better. Without getting into TMI : 5 mph under the speed limit (65 mph) is one answer.

But I really like "driving the torque" @ ... optimum engine rpm!!! To ...slightly above!! The speed of corse falls in concert.

xwesx

Haha; those stories remind me of the one time I was in that area. we came up to the lake using some sort of little two-lane road that was, I think, south of the main artery you guys describe. On the way home, though, we took the main road. It was about 0100, the whole place was deserted, and I was simply left scratching my head as to why the SL was 50. But, I wasn't driving at that point, so I just laid my seat back and closed my eyes.

stever

ruking1 said:

Yes, those areas were what I was trying to nail down . Sorry to hear they gave you a ticket there.

If not there, then somewhere. This is @andres3 we're talking about.

ruking1

I feel another ROAD trip coming on!

andres3

stever said:

ruking1 said:

Yes, those areas were what I was trying to nail down . Sorry to hear they gave you a ticket there.

If not there, then somewhere. This is @andres3 we're talking about.

The most frustrating thing besides finding out the speed limit was 50 after being stopped (I was like are you kidding me?), was that it was preventable had the detector been plugged in. I mean they were just sitting lying in wait, the perfect scenario for a detector to work best.

The officer was not happy when I snapped photos of his motorcycle and the scene where I had pulled over after being handed a ticket. He seemed surprised I was questioning his authority or judgement in having issued me a ticket. If I knew the ticket was only going to be like $130 I'd have not bothered taking some photos. I'd love to pull the 85th percentile survey on that stretch of road; not sure if NV has the same speed trap protections as CA.

Anyway, after a couple of scowls and mean looks, a question or two, and a comment or two, he left me alone.

stever

Haven't looked into it, but California is the only place I can recall reading about that has limits on speed traps.

Other than governors putting up billboards outside of small towns in Georgia.

We are thinking of heading out to the west Sunday and get some camping in, not sure if we'll make it as far as NV or CA.