What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited May 2011
    The 1.2L Bluemotion Polo is rated 91.1 MPG UK highway. That is 75.86 MPG US. And a 67.2 MPG US combined. The 1.6L TDI in the Polo is rated 65.36 MPG US on the highway. You know the Polo is about 8" longer than your Mini. Mini does offer a snappy 2.0L diesel that will do 0-62 MPH in 8.5 seconds. And still get you 67.2 MPG on the highway.

    Talking about Golf Sales. I think the fact that the Golf was selling 36% more than last year is the direct result of diesel sales. The new Touareg TDI is doing very well. Touareg sales are up 42.9% for the year to date. According to VW:

    Volkswagen’s high-mileage, clean diesel TDI models accounted for more than 23 percent of all April sales.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2011
    I'll check out some of the longterm tests in the European magazine to see what the MPG claims are.

    I don't think many Americans would buy the 1.2L as that is not acceptable for US road conditions. 0-60 is about 13 seconds, and really, you'll be downshifting at every hill and killing the fuel mileage.

    I doubt VW would send that tiny engine over here.

    Looks like from what I'm reading the 1.6 TDI comes in two HP ratings 75 and 90 HP, is that right?

    Also I'm seeing MPG ratings of 67.5 combined for the 1.6L, but that's an imperial gallon, so "real world", optimally, would be about 54 mpg US

    Given that most cars fall somewhat short of the optimum, and given that we'd probably get the stronger engine, I'm thinking that about 50 mpg for the 1.6 w/ 90 HP would be realistic for us to expect over here.

    That's not bad for a pretty peppy car that drives German.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I'm trying to figure out why American roads are so much more demanding than European roads; I mean, for crying out loud, I once rented a Fiat Uno Diesel with a whopping 35 horse power and drove that sucker nearly 90 mph on the Autobahn (managed to break 100 down-hill one time). My bet is that a 1.2 liter Polo would literally suck the doors off that old Uno.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2011
    Well first off it's how Americans drive---most of us really aren't well trained in stickshift driving and so would be very unhappy with a 1.2L car; also we just aren't used to buzzy little motors working overtime to climb hills, and we certainly don't like 0-60 in 13 seconds---that'll get you killed on L.A. freeway ramps. )It would also be the slowest car sold in America BTW). There's a lot of road rage over here, monster SUVs and pickups, tailgating, uninsured motorists---it's just the wrong world for the 1.2L Polo if you ask me.

    Added to that, the high cost of diesel fuel, the fact that diesel isn't at every gas station---I just see a very very tiny group of Americans going for the 1.2L TDI.

    It's doomed, really, if it came here.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Do I smell a friendly wager? ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited May 2011
    I think in a lot of ways it is the naught to 60 brain washing that has been instrumental in attitude formation. When you combine that with the concept of "AUTOMATIC", then in a lot of ways the collective brains shuts off. I use the example of the Civic for a purposeful application, daily commuting. One really does not need a 4 second naught to 60 mph to merge easily and correctly.

    However, I will agree with you that the small car numbers are small (percentage wise). The segment is @ 25%. Most of that segment are really LARGER small cars. Diesels to me are a viable way to have bigger cars that Americans seem to want, while getting easily 20-40% better mpg. I think smaller displacement TDI's are cool because if you truly want a small car there is a TDI that will accomodate.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2011
    Exactly how I think about it. Small cars are already a small segment here in the USA, and remember we are a very mature market with little room to grow, so a 1.2 TDI is a very limited appeal option in an already small-ish segment.

    It's quite true that we are brainwashed with this 0-60 business (thanks, McCahill) but having driven 13 second cars in recent memory (Mercedes 300D) and 9 second cars in even more recent memory (Scion xA), I personally feel that round 9 seconds is the comfort range. I'm now in the 6.5 second range and that is PLENTY, more than enough.

    I mean, I think I could manage quite well with a 1.2D myself, because I know how to shift gears, I know what a tachometer is and what it's for, and I know diesel engine characteristics---but you take your average person, who wants an automatic transmission, doesn't really "use" a tachometer beyond keeping it out of the red zone, and may not be one of those anticipatory drivers that work well with under-powered cars (pick your slots, plan your moves, accelerate before the hill, change lanes before you get stuck behind a truck, etc)----well that person is going to have a bad day in a 13 second car...or worse a 13 sec. car with an automatic transmission.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited May 2011
    Indeed then it is really not a stretch to say that ("extreme") mpg is not a high priority for the MAJORITY of drivers and certainly the legislators and regulators (@ all levels). Case in point being the Prius mpg results. Prius's are an extreme extremely small minority group !!!!! They have become the ICON for eco/green blather. They average between what 44 to 48 mpg? Now do not get me wrong, but given the choices, that is EXTREMELY good. But without all the bru ha ha and having to change the EPA standards, I have been getting app 48-52 mpg (in a TDI) with little to no effort. If I drove the TDI like one has to drive a Prius, those (TDI) figures would be far better. If I drove a Prius the way I drove the TDI, the (Prius) figures would be FAR worse.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Sure if you're a good driver you'll beat the averages....some of your good habits might even be unconscious. I mean, you and I could probably easily spot those drivers on the road who are getting the low end of the MPG average just by following them for a few miles.

    They run up to stoplights, then slam on the brakes (rather than coasting while the light turns green, thereby not having to start from 0 each time). They run up the right lane on the freeway trying to pass but get stuck behind a truck halfway up the hill. They let their cars "warm up" for 5 minutes using their nifty remote starters. They rev past the power band (especially common on diesels). They don't have a steady foot---they speed up, slow down, speed up. They buy the cheapest possible gas they can find.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited May 2011
    I am not sure how to say this, but yes, "STRUCTURALLY" mpg would increase (20-40%) good/bad driver with the TDI choice.

    I am sure you would agree that a diesel choice would not necessarily make one a better driver or (in category) improve one's mpg.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well driving a 1.2L diesel would certainly make you a less aggressive driver---you'd have no choice, unless you enjoyed tailgating UPS trucks.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Noticed tonight that one station in town has regular and diesel selling for the same price. $4.09.
  • imaginaryimaginary Member Posts: 62
    Yes, turbo even more so with higher altitude. There are diesel versions of vehicles I'd love to test drive but they're just not sold in the U.S. It'd be nice if automakers could just try to seep in the diesel vehicles slowly if they're worried about a low market for diesel.

    I thought a while back when the recently new VW TDI first made an appearance (or reappearance; I'm not up to date on VW history) every single person buying the TDI paid MSRP since the cars had trouble staying for long at dealers. Everyone was buying them off so quickly.

    I really wonder where automakers think that diesel market went. I'm pretty everyone wants better MPG if they can help it so bringing the diesel counterparts to their current line up in the U.S. seems such a simple task to most of us. I'm sure it's more complicated than that though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The issue is making California happy with the diesel emissions. I am sure every manufacturer would bring their diesel models over if they were not subject to CARB rules. Remember Honda tried with theirs and could not pass the very strict test. So far the Germans are the only ones building diesel cars and SUVs clean enough to pass THE TEST.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary - it's a matter of WILL.

    You think for one second that the Japanese engineers haven't figured out how to pass that TEST? Don't be thilly, you thilly willy.

    Of course they can pass the test.

    But can they pass it and make it profitable ENOUGH to go through the process of marketing a whole new line of engines, which in itself is not cheap?

    The test they are scared of, still, is WILL WE SELL ENOUGH OF THEM TO MAKE MONEY?

    That is the main issue - not the CARB test.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They are probably spooked by our past diesel sales history. I think the best diesel car penetration ever in the history of US sales was something like 8%, whilst in Europe they have hit as high as 53% a few years ago (it's sagging over there, too, I'm told).

    It's the same old story I think --- **Americans don't like diesel cars**

    I just don't think those of us who know and appreciate the attributes of a turbo diesel passenger car, represent the typical American buyer.

    I did see thought that BMW is fielding some rather glamorous TV ads for its new diesel sedan, so maybe over time these attitudes will change.

    Here's a lineup of diesel offerings for the USA in 2011 (a bit outdated but still accurate I think)
    2011 Diesel Cars Available in the USA



    It's interesting that the American automakers have zilch to offer in the passenger car line.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    The 03 TDI Jetta ( US/European version, there are of course others) might be an interesting example. Indeed it costed ( probably) thousands more to in effect dumb down the US vs European version. The bottom line is the European version got 2 mpg BETTER than the US version. The European version got bigger injectors (.205 vs .184 US .). Upshot being more power, 177# ft/110 hp. and a 6 speed manual vs 155# ft/90 hp 5 speed manual. EPA ratings were 42/49 mpg. So + 2 mpg would have posted 44/51 mpg.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    I can certainly understand why you could come to that conclusion. After all, Honda came out with their natural gas powered vehicles. Now I was not, nor am privy to all the in's and out's of car certification, but having a fleet of what less than 4,000 per year with little to no supporting infrastructure, on the face of it would not be profitable. They also came out with Civic Hybrid: and with a manual transmission. Again similar modus apprendi.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    I was also reading that the 2009 VW Jetta (first so called "clean diesel", bogus but that is my .02 take) literally and figuratively needed to use an American made DPF. Curiously, the DPF was made in Senator H. Clinton's state (NY state). Seems also at the time they needed HER vote on the issue. (among others of course)
  • 773cat773cat Member Posts: 1
    Also the BIG secret about diesel fuel, as I was discussing ironicly this morning is that..."You can mix it with strained used cooking oil to strectch it"...Willy Nelson discovered it and now owns biofuel diesel station. You can see him and his family deep fry a turkey, add a white powder to it and pour it directly into his E class 330.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    And you can watch him void his engine's warranty at the same time! :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think Willie used a bit of license with that. He does sell what is call Willie Biodiesel. It is B20 that is available at a lot of truck stops. Not totally a trouble free product. His Mercedes is in Maui last I heard and he does run it on B100 from Pacific Biodiesel. Which is a highly refined product. Frying chicken and dumping the grease in your tank will not make for a happy modern diesel engine. Maybe some old farm tractor will handle it ok.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Here's a good website on BIODIESEL that pretty much answers all questions:

    BIODIESEL FACTS
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    VW ( which happens to be the oem in the US markets with the most volume and percentage TDI products) strictly prohibit anything above B5 in their (2009? +) TDI's. No doubt the regulatory agencies are holding a "gun to their head" so to speak. (don't call HLS) So even if they wanted to be able to recommend use OVER B5, it is MAD (mutually assured destruction) for them to do so. (look at the multiple and repeated gauntlet/s running they have put Toyota through and it is FAR from over) However, having said that, I think they were directed (kicking and screaming IMO) to certify B5.

    My take is very simple, let the legislative and regulatory bodies MANDATE a category of (passenger diesel fleet) diesel engines that are fully certified to run up to B100. This way if VW (or any other oem) does not want to part of the fray, they can opt out: or as I think they will, ... opt in. My further op/ed is that anyone who blames VW for this is "shooting the messenger", which is what the legislative and regulatory agencies intend.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is a good informative site.

    Here is what is going on in Hawaii and Oregon with waste oil being refined to Biodiesel. A common sense approach to alternative energy.

    http://www.repoweramerica.org/wall/#/view/14124
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think a good portion of the US climate would make running B100 pretty tough---drivers will have to learn to use blends as the weather turns cold on them.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    Really !! The only thing wrong with plants like these it that it makes TOO much sense and actually ATTACKS and solves the problem !!!!!

    The local economic benefit is literally totally the opposite of taking money out of the community. Indeed any local state, county ,or city planning/economic type (knowledgeable that is) can tell you: 1 LOCAL dollar gathered and spent in a community has a ration of 1 to 8 dollar ripple effect in the local economy and that is almost at any level you care to discuss !!!

    The other UNwelcomed, unintended consequence/s is/are almost any manufacturing operation has the POTENTIAL to product productive WASTE. Even municipal and even privately run sewer/waste treatment plant has the "potential". Indeed if you "grow" the correct crops on the unused portions of highways and roads right of ways, there is potential for biodiesel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Willie Nelson fills his fresh-off-the-boat, brand new, Mercedes CDI on B100 from the pump at Pacific Biodiesel this morning!

    image

    http://www.biodiesel.com/

    Biodiesel is a good alternative. IF you do your homework. DON'T dump the bacon fat out of the frying pan into your tank and expect the diesel engine to like it. You will likely void your warranty.

    http://www.kettlebrand.com/about_us/sustainability/
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    Well that is not true. However the neatest thing about this is it is TOTALLY scale able !!!! This impact or lack there of is really hard to "wrap ones arms around" (HEAD actually)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think a good portion of the US climate would make running B100 pretty tough

    That is absolutely correct. That is part of the homework. I worked with a guy that lives in South Dakota. His local Farm Coop in Brookings sells B20. That is all he runs in his 2003 Ford Super Duty. No problems so far. B100 will gel down near freezing temps. Do your homework is my advice to anyone thinking about using biodiesel. Manufacturers will try to void your warranty if they can prove the fuel caused any problems.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    I was surprised to find (some years ago) a (literally main street US) bio diesel station in Durango, CO. it was literally 20 degrees. As an aside, it was not even close to WINTER. With wind chill it was more like 10-15 degrees. For sure, there are local and seasonal additives.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm sorry, I seem to have lost the thread you were pointing to. Were you saying that use of B100 doesn't void a warranty?

    If so, then I'd agree it is a gray area. What is certain is that an automaker may make their clauses about "misfueling" a sufficient ammo to deny you warranty on an engine problem.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    I may have not been real clear. VW STRICTLY prohibits the use of anything OVER B-5 (B-5 to B100): ZERO to B3 being just fine. That is code for we will use all the usual (and unusual) means to reasonably deny warranty. :lemon:

    Now even I will admit that UP to B-100 will run just fine. Of course there are a few technical issues probably too arcane for most diesel informational purposes.

    I personally try not to use a LICK of bio diesel (aka B-5). The US is simply not serious about the stuff it says it is. Why should I pay more, when it will run just fine paying less? They are of course overtaxing those that take this stuff seriously enough!!! ??? :lemon: So for example, CA tax per gal of ULSD is what, 85.2 cents? STATES fuel taxes
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Then there's this:

    "Solazyme is attempting to produce oil through microalgae. Most microalgae produce their own nutrients by using sunlight in a photosynthetic process. Solazyme's proprietary microalgae are heterotrophic, meaning they grow in the dark (in fermenters) by consuming sugars derived from plants that have already harnessed the sun's energy. By using standard industrial fermentation equipment, Solazyme claims it is able to efficiently scale and accelerate microalgae's natural oil production time to just a few days and at commercial levels."

    Solazyme IPO Raises $197.6M

    I could see VW selling a Super Blue Green Beetle. :)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    edited June 2011
    As I understand it, diesel oil from Microalgae actually has more lubricity than diesel distilled from petroleum. Contrast that with the relatively poor lubricity of what we are now calling "Biodiesel" (hence the warranty implications of using it as fuel in late model diesel powered vehicles) and it seems logical that we're going to need to come up with a new name for the stuff; "Microdiesel" or "Algaediesel" immediately come to mind. :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I could see VW selling a Super Blue Green Beetle.

    I looked hard for a Gecko Green VW Beetle TDI a few years back. Never found one new or used. A fellow poster on Edmund's found a used one and the last email I got says he loves it when he can get it away from his wife. My wife likes the New Beetle. I understand the New New Beetle is due out with the TDI very soon.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Except they dropped the New part, so now it'll be just Beetle.

    Hopefully they drop the prices, like they did for the new Jetta TDI sedan.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2011
    Guess you didn't have an earthy-crunchy friend who ate and was a MLM distributor for that Super Blue Green Algae stuff. Might be ok in a VW tank I never tried ingesting it.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    Again, another spin off. It is just the opposite of corn dynamics and economy. We divert edible corn production to make ethanol ! Surprise surprise that those actions jet propels the price of a bushel of corn !?

    While I personally do not know a lot of people who eat algae, it would add to the edible algae food supply. ;)
  • bammer1bammer1 Member Posts: 2
    Its a 3.9 forgot to mention that
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The Jeep Liberty CRD broke some people from the diesel experiment. Maybe VW will do better.

    "Diesel Dreams

    There are many skeptics about clean-diesel’s long-term prospects in the U.S. market, but Volkswagen AG executives profess not to be among them. No other company even comes close to VW’s huge bet on diesel as the preferred way to meet fuel-economy mandates. It’s a matter of both faith and practice. Audi even has gone so far as to make diesel powertrains a centerpiece of its TV advertising over the last few years, including the “Green Police” spoof spot during the 2010 Super Bowl. This directly contrasts with the rest of the industry, which portrays hybrids and EVs as their long-term “green” salvation. The brand has been “very deliberate in posing diesel as more than just another powertrain,” Rosso said. “We have done it on a ‘cause’ basis, and this has resonated with consumers.”

    So although they demand a price premium, Turbo Diesel Injection engines are under-hood in boatload after boatload of VWs and Audis headed for America: About 80 percent of Jetta Sportwagens sold in the U.S. are TDI-equipped, for instance, and about 22 percent of total VW-brand sales in May were TDI. The diesel version of Passat has a range of nearly 800 miles on a tank of fuel and already is a crucial part of VW’s positioning of the new car. TDI “will be an important part of the Passat offering, so we’re trying to make it as accessible as possible in terms of pricing,” Browning said. For Audi, about 40 percent of Q7s sold in May were TDI and a whopping 55 percent of A3, its entry-level sedan. “Every A3 that we sold last year as a diesel was incremental to our business,” Rosso said."

    If VW Can Meet U.S. Goals, It May Be 'Game Over' (AutoObserver)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    Indeed Jeep Liberty CRD broke Chysler in the diesel experiment. :sick: Time to task Cummins for a V-6 3.0 L or a I-4 2.O for smaller M-Y offerings

    As one that follows the VW progress, I am interested in the projected Passat TDI sales vs actual. I am sure the 43 mpg stats will not go unnoticed by new buyers in that segement (Accord/Camry/Hyndai/ etc etc. ) My swag is the bare minimum of 22% (VW TDI's fleet sales)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I've already sold 3 TDIs for VW. I should get a check in the mail :P

    I'd buy one myself except that I don't seem to have $27,000 lying around. Let me check the sofa under the pillows.

    I think diesel cars are a good bet as a "transitional" market but I just don't see them even remotely approaching European market share. Even 10% market share in the USA would be impressive.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    To me, your take really confirms the US is really not at all serious about the fuel issues. One thing they ARE serious about is to get the price (TAXES also) per gal UP to the European levels of $ 9 to 10. per gal, unfortunately: the sooner the better. Given the "objective" fuel standards (25 mpg current and 2012 35 mpg upcoming) , the corrollary being the "DISCOUNTS" to those standards, we will continue to consume more fuel than Europe. (per mile driven) Indeed, at higher prices also (per mile driven) Not that Europe should be the shining light here. China, for example will increase their fuel consumption many fold in the over all picture. I have read in passing that China's middle class @ 300 M is slightly smaller than the US's TOTAL population 307 +M !!!!

    This is in no way shape or form a call for higher fuel standards. It is a call (if indeed the US is at all serious, which they are not) to let in those cars that actually GET better fuel mileage.

    While a TDI population of 10% (25.84 M from 1.272 M) would be impressive, again given how a barrel of oil is refined, a more serious population of 20-26% diesel would go a LONG way in cutting a lot of the issues raised.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited June 2011
    Well it could be a classic case of politics getting in the way of science, and perhaps even traditional American populism attempting to revive the concept of American "exceptionalism"--that is, that somehow we have superpowers that other countries facing an energy crisis do not have, or expressed even more bluntly, that if we need more oil we should just go grab it.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    LOL. We are milking that model for all and more than it is worth !!!

    In light of so called "manufacture able" algae bio diesel, it really does not make a lot of sense. In a global sense it also is ironic that we have to buy from folks who use part of the proceeds of oil money for our down fall. Modern logistics really hides the HUGE costs of getting oil and its retail products RUG/PUG ULSD to the corners of 3rd street and 33 rd avenue @ 3:33 am/pm. It really makes more sense to LOCALLY manufacture biodiesel that comes from 4th street and 44 ave and the day before @ 4:44 am/pm!!!!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Gee, you mean kind of like a local "Farmer's Market" but for biodiesel products?

    I'm not so sure communities would want a biodiesel processing plant in their back yard. Maybe in the large cities?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2011
    Well yes !

    It bears mentioning, we alreay have "nimby"oil policies (not in my back yard (you don't) !! Oil has been coming from the middle east for literally generations (aka, is that far enough away?) . Don't like on shore drilling? Well lets drill OFF shore in the middle of no where, no where (fully half of KNOWN oil reserves are off shore) . How well have those nimby oil policies worked and/or continue to?

    So here is a real life "nimby" oil policy. There are currently NO passenger vehicle fleet (diesel) engines that are certified to run up to B-100 (biodiesel 100%).

    Now some of the TDI "breathern " do run them (up to B-100) in Berkeley, and Santa Cruz, CA, but they are generally seen as wacked out hippies from the 60's ;) aka fringe minority minority group. CA has also instituted smog checks for previously "exempt" diesel passenger cars.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited June 2011
    I'm not so sure communities would want a biodiesel processing plant in their back yard. Maybe in the large cities?

    I think it is more likely than seeing any new fossil fuel refineries. Smells like french fries. What's not to like. mmmmm good. :shades:

    I have not checked any of these new small processing plants. I have invested in a couple. Though so far they have been less than profitable. I lean more toward the refining of used cooking oil than using expensive crops for feedstock. I am still optimistic my investments in Algae to biodiesel will pay off.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well they ARE, in fact, whacked out hippies from the 60s, but that doesn't mean they're crazy.

    You know, America is the land of the "half step". As long as you are 1/2 step in front of everyone, you can survive and even prosper. But you go out TOO FAR and you're going to get punished. The possible exception to this rule might be of course in the case of national survival, but as it relates to business or politics, 1/2 steps are part of our culture I think.
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