I am talking about that kluged up diesel they used in the Liberty. I followed that thread the first couple years. That was an exciting vehicle for me. It had two things going against it. First Chrysler was on a downhill slide after their experience with Mercedes. Second they took an Italian engine and just added stuff to try and clean the emissions. If memory serves they had two major issues. The auto transmission and EGR. Did Chrysler ever get it fixed or was buying back the lemons their way of solving the problem? Add to that it was a transition time for ULSD. The Liberty CRD came out right in that transition period from 2005 and 2006. ULSD can be bad for an engine designed for regular old diesel. Their are lubrication issues. The newer engines were designed for ULSD. It sounds like many of the people that gave the Jeep diesel a try are no longer interested in the fuel. Just like the fiasco with GM goofy diesel engines in the late 70s and early 80s. Those failed attempts to save fuel set back our energy policies by decades.
Right now in passenger vehicle diesels the Germans are the leaders. From what I saw of the PU truck diesels over the last 10 years, Ford is faltering with their diesel engine adapting to the more strict EPA rules. I have not followed GM or Cummins so cannot say. If I was buying a big diesel PU it would be a Ram. Though that is unlikely. I just don't need that kind of power.
The MB 2.2L 4 cylinder diesel in the 2012 ML250 Bluetec is a perfect size in my opinion. Being designed from the ground up to meet the latest emissions should make it an ideal choice. What's not to like with a diesel full sized SUV that gets a combined 39 MPG US???? By the way it has over twice the HP and Torque of the old GM 5.7L diesel in the Olds and Caddy.
I can sense your almost utter frustration with the diesel engine Chrysler selected for your Jeep Liberty. I would not in the least try to downplay your experiences. However to say you will not get another diesel because of this really bad experience with a Chysler diesel is akin to saying you will never get another gasser because of a bad gasser engine experience. I would think that (WAY) more US market folks have had bad gasser engine experiences than folks that had BAD diesel experiences.
In some ways, I am being disengenuous, as I had a 1985 Toyota Camry 4 cylinder (gasser) that was a SLUDGE a matic (among a litany of ills) . I have never bought a I-4 Toyota Camry since then. But then on the other hand Toyota continued to sell sludge a matic I-4's long after 1985. It is well documented (between the lines so to speak) I have bought other Toyota products. Another is having experienced 2 diesels I really think diesels are a great fit for our roads. Hence given a well made diesel I would choose it over a like model gasser.
This is PURELY monday morning Q-backing, but if they had commissioned Cummins to do a TDI small block TV-8, V6, or even a big I-4 they would have been FAR better off, and probably had MORE delighted customers. As you probably know, Cummins does the (HEAVY) light truck TDI's for them. Chysler normally does not put a stout enough automatic transmission on their diesels (like A/T's made by Allison).
As for the extra cost of oil changes, filters and expensive "diesel parts", you are correct, they can be slightly to a lot more expensive. However when you dig into it, they are FAR cheaper per mile driven. I have 164,000 miles on a Jetta TDI. VW's do not have a reputation for ultra reliability. However, mine has been ultra reliable. Up untill the first timing belt and water pump change, it ran the majority of the miles on unspecified fuel (vehicle was designed to run ULSD but ran LSD). I do not think I got the exceptionally well made example. Indeed, the chances reveal at best, I got an "averagely" built one.
I do run 20,000 to 25,000 miles oil and filter changes (OCI). OEM recommendations are at 10,000 miles. The last OCI was 30,700 miles as I recall. It does require so called synthetic oil @ 5.25 per qt. However I do not run specified oil here. So 4.5 qts with a 4.50 oil filter puts the change @ 28.125 for parts/ 30,700 miles = per mile lubricated cost of .0009161 cents. Oil consumption @ 30,700 miles has been app 1/4 to 1/2 qt. Normally one does not have to add oil till it hits the "ADD" mark. It did not. It is slightly tricky as instead of adding oil, I just changed out the oil. (I hope this is not vaque)
I do use a so called "topside" evacuator. Oil removal and replacement takes all of 5 mins. While the oil is being evacuated I R/R the oil filter. I suction out the oil filter holder, which is really not necessary. The rest of the time is cleaning up and recycling ancillary stuff. While I have never done this, one can literally do an oil and filter change in a mall parking lot space.
I think a good point was made about diesels..they are definitely not "lower maintenance"....a more accurate term, in my opinion, would be --"different maintenance".
My suspicion, with no proof whatsoever, is that running a high-end diesel SUV is going to cost you more per mile than a Suburban gasser, by a good margin, too.
Of course, there may be advantages beyond cost per mile. Life isn't all about counting pennies.
Correct. Diesels have never been nor ever projected to be "NO maintenance required".
As I have outlined I like the "different maintenance" (much longer real world intervals). I gave one example (diesel specific).
I think in all fairness, one has to compare like models. The issue in the US markets is there is a tendency to compare apples to oranges for a host of real world but ARTIFICIAL REASONS. Having said that, it was really no surprise to compare a "lower end" Civic with a so called higher end VW Jetta TDI. The TDI using way less fuel, costing less per mile driven fuel, and costing far less both scheduled and unscheduled maintenance.
I think one reason people run into trouble with diesels is that some folks don't make the adjustment to 'different' maintenance. They treat their diesel vehicles as if they were gassers, which can lead to unfortunate results. As any trucker can tell you, fuel quality is critical--so are driving techniques, and cold-start procedures.
So you really watch your filters, (perhaps even add additional filtering) you're careful where you buy fuel, you use additives when necessary (for gelling, for bio-cide), you drive in the power curve, and you don't run the thing out of fuel.
Actually an excellent point. Perhaps the conscious and unconscious expectations are that they be EXACTLY alike. As you have put it well, they are NOT !!
Well I don't think manufacturers educate the buyer very well regarding diesels. They just hit on vague notions of "rugged" (as if your 1/2 pickup were an 18-wheeler, which it ain't, nor would you want it to be) or "economical" (as if your Range Rover diesel is going to cost about the same as a diesel Golf, which it ain't, and you *would* like it to be). :P
There have been horror stories about Adblue rip-offs and the VW DSG needing an expensive service every 60k miles. You may be right about the cost vs a Suburban gasser or my current Sequoia gasser.
It has little to do with TCO for me. More to do with my own driving pleasure and overall experience. If it was about cost I would probably buy a cheapo Yaris and live with the tinny experience. Yet it does come down the money. I am not going to drop another $50k and not get more than what I have with the current Sequoia. It is not like I drive it a lot. I have owned it for 3 years 9 months and it has not reached 24k miles. It is big and takes up a lot of space in my garage. All my current wish list SUVs are about 12-18 inches shorter. Whatever I buy, I will have to fall in love with. No more spontaneous purchases like this Sequoia.
Having owned diesels for the last 15 straight years, I can say I have not had to change a spark plug, spark wire, distributor, or (since Cummins doesn't use them) a glow plug. My 3-gallon oil changes are Cummins-specified at 7500 miles (standard use) or 15,000 miles (light use) on 15W40 dino-oil... far above what gasoline engines can get away with. The fuel filter is right under the hood and an easy swap, almost as easy as the air filter.
Since my engine has an in-gear redline of 3200, it's basically in its torque curve for the majority of the rev range (torque peak is 610 lb-ft at 1600 rpm, and is still at 588 lb-ft at the hp peak of 2900 rpm). So whether I'm easy or romping on the go pedal, the engine is ready for whatever I ask. Plus, since diesel engines are duty-rated instead of peak-rated like gassers, I can run at max rpm all day if I want (even in overdrive)... something VERY few gasoline vehicles can do.
The engine has fired on its intake grid heater (what Cummins uses in place of glow plugs) as far down as -14°F, so no need for plugging in a block heater.
Selecting the right diesel for how you drive is just as important a decision as diesel vs gas - no different than deciding on a V8 gasser over an I-4 if you prefer performance driving.
I do my oil at 7,500 intervals (ok, last time around it was closer to 15,000 miles ) and I use a $10 gallon jug from Walmart and have a bit less than a quart left over.
Changed my spark plugs at 124,000 miles (~9.5 years). Wish I hadn't - didn't help the performance or mpg one whit. I think I'm still on the original fuel filter at 155k.
So if you're trying to say diesels require less maintenance, I don't think that flies. I can count about 8 car mechanics within a mile. One for sure works on diesels. Don't know if any of the others do.
200 ft. lbs. gives the van plenty of torque and I don't have to tow since everything fits inside .
Well god forbid you have to do engine work as the miles pile up,--may this never happen to you-- because diesel rebuilds are significantly more expensive.
Cylinder Block R8003549AA $9420.00
Diesel fuel typically "clouds" at 20F, (starts to get "waxy") but could conceivably be okay with a winter blend down to -10F, and with additives I would guess -40F.
However, you have to listen to that racket all day, which personally would drive me nuts. On the other hand, you sound like the perfect diesel truck owner given that you work your truck. I suppose given your needs I would make much the same choice.
I hope a Benz diesel SUV would be far quieter however.
If it's maintained and treated well, first overhaul is 350,000 miles, and the block should last ideally "forever".
Since the 2004 emissions regs, the HD pickup diesels have become notably quieter... my 2005 doesn't require me to shut off at a drive-thru (although my 1996 sure did). And there's no cooler sound than being alongside a semi on the interstate as we both hit a hill and those turbos start whistling in harmony
I'll still say that if Chrysler builds a 300 AWD diesel with the 8-speed ZF... I'm there!
Thanks for all your inputs, it is helpful that so many responded to my post!
I would consider a diesel IF it was the RAM pickup. Now here is some added information. I am 66 and not likely to buy another new vehicle. Also guess who is going to supply diesels for Chrysler once again? Yep, VM MOTORI spa. My Jeep was great UNTIL the torque converter was replaced and de-tuned the engine. The loss of power was drastic! The torque turned down to where the engine turbo had little if any effect. But Jeep only used 10,000 of us as testers for Jeep. But Chrysler did see the error and did buy back some of us CRD owners. That is the part I do praise Chrysler for, not many companies would go that far.
I have bought 15 new Chrysler made vehicles and four used ones. All of these have given very good service. I know I have been a loyal Chrysler customer, and I have more knowledge about these products than anything else. So I stay with what works fro me. I do think most vehicles are pretty much a good vehicles. But no vehicle is better than the maintenance you give it.
If I had to buy a car that was diesel I would give VW a real close look, thanks to those who mentioned the VW>
350K? -- well you are an optimist, but it's certainly possible while not statistically probable. That's a lot of ups and downs for a set of pistons however. I don't think in my 25 years of appraising I ever saw a *documented* case of 350K without an engine being opened up at least part-way. But then again, I don't appraise many diesels, except old Benz 300Ds and they were not as durable as the legend suggests.
Diesel blocks do tend to last longer though, because they are build stronger (for obvious reasons). I'd say statistically that 250K is about it before you're driving something really tired. That's 20+ years of driving the same truck @ 12,000 miles a year!
It only makes sense to strive for high miles if one takes care of the REST of the truck, so that it doesn't fall apart around the engine.
Remember that the Cummins B-series engines used in the Dodge Ram are true medium/light-heavy engines used in trucks all the way to class 7 - it is rated for tractor-trailer applications up to 65,000 GCWR. My Ram 3500 dually is rated at about one-third of that - the engine is considerable overkill in the application.
And with Cummins' recent uprate to 800 lb-ft, you're talking about 7000-8000 pound trucks that can come off the line like cars... 0-60 in a diesel pickup used to require advanced planning - a Ram 2500, Silverado 2500, or Ford F-250 regular cab 4x2 can now snap off 0-60 in under 8 seconds with their oil burners.
More choices... For my price range, the only diesels on the market are from Volkswagen. Which is fine, but Volkswagen's are not cheap to fix or to regularly maintain.
Plus I'd want more power. 140hp from Volkswagen's diesel is okay, but I want more like 200-250 hp in a small car.
:P
So a diesel version of a Mazdaspeed3 would be perfect! Heh heh heh. (no, seriously, it would be for me)
Well yeah, but are any of them? Around here, a simple transmission service is $130.
There's three diesels out there under $25k. All VWs. The Audi A3 MSRPs a bit over $30k. The cheapest diesel pickup is a Dodge Ram 3500; a MB Sprinter starts at the same price as the Ram - $35,995.
The Mazda3 Sport version only has 167HP. The Golf TDI has gobs more torque. That is the stuff that gets you around a Prius blocking traffic on the Interstate. You should go out and drive a Golf TDI. We do get the neutered version here, but still fun to drive.
More choices... For my price range, the only diesels on the market are from Volkswagen. Which is fine, but Volkswagen's are not cheap to fix or to regularly maintain.
Hmmm, an oil change every ten thousand miles and a fuel filter every twenty (and if you must have an automatic, service on that every forty); sounds pretty cheap to maintain to me.
Plus I'd want more power. 140hp from Volkswagen's diesel is okay, but I want more like 200-250 hp in a small car.
Please don't let the horsepower number fool you, the 2.0 liter TDI puts out gobs of torque and at pretty much any speed above ten mph, the TDI is just a hair faster than the 170 hp 2.5 liter gasser that can be had in many VW offerings. I've heard tell of ECU flashes (which may or may not require larger injectors) from aftermarket companies that bring the TDI up to ~170 hp but I cannot speak about the efficacy of those upgrades first hand.
So a diesel version of a Mazdaspeed3 would be perfect! Heh heh heh. (no, seriously, it would be for me)
A diesel MazdaSpeed3? I rather doubt we'll see such a beastie before the hear 2020, if ever.
You might want to see the BMW 335 D specifications and experience them @ a very meager 265 hp. But as Gagrice, Shipo and others have said and inferred, it sports 425 # ft of torque. :surprise: :shades: . AND @ 1750 rpm. This is one less # ft of torque than a 2011 Corvette.
I personally am still on the fence (after 22,000 miles) whether or not the extra "hp" is worth the mpg trade off on the Jetta TDI.
Yes, and that BMW engine in a VW Golf-size car would be perfect, in my view. That said, no one makes a diesel hatch for sale in the US with that kind of power.
No I think Mazda would have massive issues/problems with the cost and implementation of the transmission necessary. While it sounds like a minor issue, it is actually HUGE and on many levels, for all the obvious reasons and probably many more not so obvious reasons.
Probably a good way to look at it would be, why doesn't Mazda make a gasser turbo that does get 425 # ft of torque????
Even most BMW owners have really not embraced the BMW 335 D, if the 2009.2010,2011 sales figures are any indicator. Again I am sure for a lot of reasons they only offer an automatic in their turbo diesel. They probably have a clutch, gear mismatch for a 6 speed manual (not robust enough) . This truly is a MONSTER CAR. Having said that, @ 3825 #'s I wish it were app 800#'s to 900#'s lighter. But then again, that would bring on WHOLE other sets of issues.
I guess my point was why pay for "overkill" unless you are going to drive the truck for the 20 years it would take to reach 350K miles in the first place, or unless you need to tow around 17,000 lbs on a regular basis--neither of which 95% of all owners will never do most likely.
But of course this is a personal decision and not on my radar. I can't really judge if such a rig is worth spending $50K, because mostly I see these trucks at leisure, not at work, and watching them with one person in the cab, and an empty bed, all shiny and pristine, I just have to wonder what the heck people are doing with these things. :confuse:
I guess I'm a small diesel guy, not a big diesel guy. :P
To me that is the crux issue. So called light trucks/SUVs are the highest volume and percentage markets. So why not a "smaller diesel", you know 350 to 500# ft of torque, aka small block V8 to V6 turbo diesel? It would seem like a no brainer to me for those owners who get what 11 mpg to 20 mpg get 20-40% better mpg? 13.2 to 28 mpg?
I suppose this is a classic case of being forced to buy something that has a dedicated use of 5% of the time (hauling your huge travel trailer or boat) and remains unused for 95% of the time. When you need it, you *really* need it, but often you don't need it at all.
But I agree, I do scratch my head when I see a diesel truck rated to carry 5,000 lbs in the bed (!!!) with one bag of dog food in the back. :shades:
"Well god forbid you have to do engine work as the miles pile up,--may this never happen to you-- because diesel rebuilds are significantly more expensive.
Cylinder Block R8003549AA $9420.00"
Since I read the above comment yesterday I've been kind of puzzling over what it has to do with this discussion. The thing is, unless a rod is thrown through the skirt, there won't be a need for a block replacement for several million miles. As I understand it, the Cummins engine in the Dodge pick-ups is a full duty-cycle commercial engine no less robust than the diesels that move commercial vehicles around our country. I also suspect the Ford and GM engines in the general vicinity of robustness as well.
I was talking with one of the senior drivers of the commuter bus line which I ride in and out of Boston every day; he told me the owner's philosophy is PM his engines by remanufacturing them to a "Zero Time" state every time they hit a million mile threshold; regardless of how well the engine is running. I'm thinking each block could withstand at least two over-bores before a replacement block would be necessary, of course after three million miles, it might be more than the block which needs replacing.
And engines like these are far more affected by engine hours than vehicle miles. A school bus with a Cummins ISB 6.7 that makes an hour run before and after school will have the same engine hours as a Dodge Ram commuting 50 miles each way on the interstate. Dodge has included an hour meter since the 2003 model year (it's a tertiary display after the main and trip odometers), and it's fun calculating average miles per hour using the main odo and the hour meter. The first couple of years with my 2005 when I was really pounding out the miles, I had an average speed of well over 40 mph, thanks to all the highway commuting.
I'm thinking each block could withstand at least two over-bores before a replacement block would be necessary. . .
Well, in the Class 8 world (Cummins 855 cid, Cat) the block just holds the liners. I don't follow the pickup truck wanna-be diesels, but if they have liners the block will last forever, unless the top counterbore (where the liner sits) pounds out. That happens in earth-moving machinery, but there are ways to reline the block even then. I don't think it's a factor for pickups that pull a trailer 10% of the time.
When I was involved, Class 8 truck engine overhauls were either "in-frame" or complete. An in-frame involved reworking the heads & replacing the liners. The pull-the-engine version includes the crank & all bearings, plus the above. Cummins would generally run up to 250K miles for an in-frame and Cat went up to 400K or more. All of this assumed careful oil maintenance, such that the bearings stayed alive.
Running a block for 2 or 3 million miles can certainly be done, but there are many liners and at least a few sets of bearings involved.
And engines like these are far more affected by engine hours than vehicle miles.
So why do the idiots idle them for hours on end?
My neighbor got a lift the other morning at 7:30 am and the nephew let his diesel pickup idle for ten minutes while he had coffee or something before they left.
Are diesels that fragile that you can't turn them off and hope they restart a minute later? I never see UPS drivers doing that.
I am not sure to questions in para 's #2.3. But for sure diesels are not more fragile than gassers. On a maybe off topic thought, diesels do DRAW more amperage. However that is real seamless and opaque to the operator. Most diesel batteries are WAY more robust than the same for a like model. UPS drivers not only got the action correct, but I am sure they are trained to do it on stopping and probably if idling past a certain min range. It is whatever per hour idling time each one saves TIMES X's the FLEET. I am sure it is a boat load of saved fuel, aka saved monies on over 100,000 vehicles.
The engine itself is just fine idling all day. Diesels make much better generators than gasoline motors because they use far less fuel and run much cooler if they're not under load.
People usually idle diesels for reasons other than the engine (keeping heat or AC on, PTO operation, etc.). Only time I idle my truck for an extended period of time is after a snowfall - I'll start the truck, fire up the defroster, then start clearing snow. By the time I get to the windshield, the defroster has thoroughly warmed the glass and it's an easy clear.
Starting a diesel engine is no small task, though - that's why they have (at least) two batteries in truck and bus applications. The HD pickups usually come with a pair of 750CCA units. But if the engine is well maintained and the batteries/alternator are running well, restarting a warm engine is no sweat.
Funny, Farout spelled it right in his second post right after his "deisel" post. Guess he could have spelled it "stinker". Irritation can do that to you.
There's a story, totally unconfirmed, that he was despondent about his engines being used for military purposes, but this seems unlikely given that he died in 1913.
Cummins would generally run up to 250K miles for an in-frame and Cat went up to 400K or more. All of this assumed careful oil maintenance, such that the bearings stayed alive.
Running a block for 2 or 3 million miles can certainly be done, but there are many liners and at least a few sets of bearings involved.
I just did a little research and came up with the fact that the I6 diesel in the Dodge Ram trucks is the same basic engine as the units that run the commuter busses I ride into Boston every day. The busses run a somewhat larger engine (ISL 8.9 liters versus ISB 6.7 liter); I'm thinking if that engine can push these busses (I'm riding on one now) to over a million miles without an overhaul, they should have no problem doing it in a Dodge pickup truck.
While Cummins will probably never print this specification, 1 M miles probably comes out to app 25,000 hours of operation @ 40-55 mph average" operation. Indeed that is the design specification for the VW 1.9 TDI. Believe it or not, the same engine is used for industrial GENERATOR applications.
For whatever the reasons, we have been mantra'd to believe in and ultimately practice a so called "throw away" attitude toward passenger cars and to a slightly lesser extent on light trucks. The fact of the matter, very very few vehicle items has/have the basic function changed much. Here are some examples: 1. brake rotors 2. brake pads 3. strut and shocks 4. batteries 5. tires 6. springs 7. turbos 8. fuel systems 9. etc
On many levels, it really makes not a lot of sense to get a new car when any to all of the above need/s changing. This might be especially true in todays' chaotic economic environment. Anymore having a monthly payment for ANYTHING can be a boat anchor looking for a place to hit rock bottom.
I think up until a few years ago the biggest detriment to longevity in vehicles was RUST. Even recently Toyota had some serious rust issues. Not every place is dry and rust free. I sometimes wish something serious would go wrong with my wife's LS400. It still runs good and almost 22 years old. We are driving it more as Premium is the better buy in gas. And it averages about 17.5 MPG overall.
I am thinking if I buy a new vehicle it will be my last. So I want something that gets decent mileage on the highway. Mercedes has held out the best looking carrot so far. Will it make it to the USA? That is the question. I emailed a couple MB dealers that always send me their flyers. So far no response on the 2012 ML250 Bluetec.
An excellent point. As much as VW has been, is and probably will continue to be vilified, it has done does and hopefully will continue to do something EXCELLENTLY that ( in effect) nobody sees: they pay attention to rust. They use galvanized sheet metal. Indeed VW rarely (that I have seen) advertises it. They do have a 12 year rust perforation warranty. Audi in addition, uses aluminium in some of their body parts.
You can run up a Yugo to one million miles if you want to spend the money to do so. I don't think most of us would like the actual cost per mile of those buses.
Besides, if everyone in the USA decided to keep their vehicles long enough to get 400K on them, the auto industry would collapse.
Even more realistic is the probability that the rest of the truck will fall apart long before 400K---you'd be left with an engine surrounded by tattered dented rusted debris, judging by how *most* Americans care for their vehicles (we aren't the best). That's 33 years of driving remember, at the average of 12,000 miles a year.
Comments
Right now in passenger vehicle diesels the Germans are the leaders. From what I saw of the PU truck diesels over the last 10 years, Ford is faltering with their diesel engine adapting to the more strict EPA rules. I have not followed GM or Cummins so cannot say. If I was buying a big diesel PU it would be a Ram. Though that is unlikely. I just don't need that kind of power.
The MB 2.2L 4 cylinder diesel in the 2012 ML250 Bluetec is a perfect size in my opinion. Being designed from the ground up to meet the latest emissions should make it an ideal choice. What's not to like with a diesel full sized SUV that gets a combined 39 MPG US???? By the way it has over twice the HP and Torque of the old GM 5.7L diesel in the Olds and Caddy.
In some ways, I am being disengenuous, as I had a 1985 Toyota Camry 4 cylinder (gasser) that was a SLUDGE a matic (among a litany of ills) . I have never bought a I-4 Toyota Camry since then. But then on the other hand Toyota continued to sell sludge a matic I-4's long after 1985. It is well documented (between the lines so to speak) I have bought other Toyota products. Another is having experienced 2 diesels I really think diesels are a great fit for our roads. Hence given a well made diesel I would choose it over a like model gasser.
This is PURELY monday morning Q-backing, but if they had commissioned Cummins to do a TDI small block TV-8, V6, or even a big I-4 they would have been FAR better off, and probably had MORE delighted customers. As you probably know, Cummins does the (HEAVY) light truck TDI's for them. Chysler normally does not put a stout enough automatic transmission on their diesels (like A/T's made by Allison).
As for the extra cost of oil changes, filters and expensive "diesel parts", you are correct, they can be slightly to a lot more expensive. However when you dig into it, they are FAR cheaper per mile driven. I have 164,000 miles on a Jetta TDI. VW's do not have a reputation for ultra reliability. However, mine has been ultra reliable. Up untill the first timing belt and water pump change, it ran the majority of the miles on unspecified fuel (vehicle was designed to run ULSD but ran LSD). I do not think I got the exceptionally well made example. Indeed, the chances reveal at best, I got an "averagely" built one.
I do run 20,000 to 25,000 miles oil and filter changes (OCI). OEM recommendations are at 10,000 miles. The last OCI was 30,700 miles as I recall. It does require so called synthetic oil @ 5.25 per qt. However I do not run specified oil here. So 4.5 qts with a 4.50 oil filter puts the change @ 28.125 for parts/ 30,700 miles = per mile lubricated cost of .0009161 cents. Oil consumption @ 30,700 miles has been app 1/4 to 1/2 qt. Normally one does not have to add oil till it hits the "ADD" mark. It did not. It is slightly tricky as instead of adding oil, I just changed out the oil. (I hope this is not vaque)
I do use a so called "topside" evacuator. Oil removal and replacement takes all of 5 mins. While the oil is being evacuated I R/R the oil filter. I suction out the oil filter holder, which is really not necessary. The rest of the time is cleaning up and recycling ancillary stuff. While I have never done this, one can literally do an oil and filter change in a mall parking lot space.
My suspicion, with no proof whatsoever, is that running a high-end diesel SUV is going to cost you more per mile than a Suburban gasser, by a good margin, too.
Of course, there may be advantages beyond cost per mile. Life isn't all about counting pennies.
As I have outlined I like the "different maintenance" (much longer real world intervals). I gave one example (diesel specific).
I think in all fairness, one has to compare like models. The issue in the US markets is there is a tendency to compare apples to oranges for a host of real world but ARTIFICIAL REASONS. Having said that, it was really no surprise to compare a "lower end" Civic with a so called higher end VW Jetta TDI. The TDI using way less fuel, costing less per mile driven fuel, and costing far less both scheduled and unscheduled maintenance.
So you really watch your filters, (perhaps even add additional filtering) you're careful where you buy fuel, you use additives when necessary (for gelling, for bio-cide), you drive in the power curve, and you don't run the thing out of fuel.
It has little to do with TCO for me. More to do with my own driving pleasure and overall experience. If it was about cost I would probably buy a cheapo Yaris and live with the tinny experience. Yet it does come down the money. I am not going to drop another $50k and not get more than what I have with the current Sequoia. It is not like I drive it a lot. I have owned it for 3 years 9 months and it has not reached 24k miles. It is big and takes up a lot of space in my garage. All my current wish list SUVs are about 12-18 inches shorter. Whatever I buy, I will have to fall in love with. No more spontaneous purchases like this Sequoia.
Since my engine has an in-gear redline of 3200, it's basically in its torque curve for the majority of the rev range (torque peak is 610 lb-ft at 1600 rpm, and is still at 588 lb-ft at the hp peak of 2900 rpm). So whether I'm easy or romping on the go pedal, the engine is ready for whatever I ask. Plus, since diesel engines are duty-rated instead of peak-rated like gassers, I can run at max rpm all day if I want (even in overdrive)... something VERY few gasoline vehicles can do.
The engine has fired on its intake grid heater (what Cummins uses in place of glow plugs) as far down as -14°F, so no need for plugging in a block heater.
Selecting the right diesel for how you drive is just as important a decision as diesel vs gas - no different than deciding on a V8 gasser over an I-4 if you prefer performance driving.
kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
Changed my spark plugs at 124,000 miles (~9.5 years). Wish I hadn't - didn't help the performance or mpg one whit. I think I'm still on the original fuel filter at 155k.
So if you're trying to say diesels require less maintenance, I don't think that flies. I can count about 8 car mechanics within a mile. One for sure works on diesels. Don't know if any of the others do.
200 ft. lbs. gives the van plenty of torque and I don't have to tow since everything fits inside
And I can disassemble your entire van, throw the whole pile in the bed, still not exceed my GVWR, and get it moving to highway speed.
:P
kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
Cylinder Block R8003549AA $9420.00
Diesel fuel typically "clouds" at 20F, (starts to get "waxy") but could conceivably be okay with a winter blend down to -10F, and with additives I would guess -40F.
However, you have to listen to that racket all day, which personally would drive me nuts. On the other hand, you sound like the perfect diesel truck owner given that you work your truck. I suppose given your needs I would make much the same choice.
I hope a Benz diesel SUV would be far quieter however.
Since the 2004 emissions regs, the HD pickup diesels have become notably quieter... my 2005 doesn't require me to shut off at a drive-thru (although my 1996 sure did). And there's no cooler sound than being alongside a semi on the interstate as we both hit a hill and those turbos start whistling in harmony
I'll still say that if Chrysler builds a 300 AWD diesel with the 8-speed ZF... I'm there!
kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
I would consider a diesel IF it was the RAM pickup. Now here is some added information. I am 66 and not likely to buy another new vehicle. Also guess who is going to supply diesels for Chrysler once again? Yep, VM MOTORI spa. My Jeep was great UNTIL the torque converter was replaced and de-tuned the engine. The loss of power was drastic! The torque turned down to where the engine turbo had little if any effect. But Jeep only used 10,000 of us as testers for Jeep. But Chrysler did see the error and did buy back some of us CRD owners. That is the part I do praise Chrysler for, not many companies would go that far.
I have bought 15 new Chrysler made vehicles and four used ones. All of these have given very good service. I know I have been a loyal Chrysler customer, and I have more knowledge about these products than anything else. So I stay with what works fro me. I do think most vehicles are pretty much a good vehicles. But no vehicle is better than the maintenance you give it.
If I had to buy a car that was diesel I would give VW a real close look, thanks to those who mentioned the VW>
Diesel blocks do tend to last longer though, because they are build stronger (for obvious reasons). I'd say statistically that 250K is about it before you're driving something really tired. That's 20+ years of driving the same truck @ 12,000 miles a year!
It only makes sense to strive for high miles if one takes care of the REST of the truck, so that it doesn't fall apart around the engine.
And with Cummins' recent uprate to 800 lb-ft, you're talking about 7000-8000 pound trucks that can come off the line like cars... 0-60 in a diesel pickup used to require advanced planning - a Ram 2500, Silverado 2500, or Ford F-250 regular cab 4x2 can now snap off 0-60 in under 8 seconds with their oil burners.
kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
Plus I'd want more power. 140hp from Volkswagen's diesel is okay, but I want more like 200-250 hp in a small car.
:P
So a diesel version of a Mazdaspeed3 would be perfect! Heh heh heh. (no, seriously, it would be for me)
Well yeah, but are any of them? Around here, a simple transmission service is $130.
There's three diesels out there under $25k. All VWs. The Audi A3 MSRPs a bit over $30k. The cheapest diesel pickup is a Dodge Ram 3500; a MB Sprinter starts at the same price as the Ram - $35,995.
Hmmm, an oil change every ten thousand miles and a fuel filter every twenty (and if you must have an automatic, service on that every forty); sounds pretty cheap to maintain to me.
Plus I'd want more power. 140hp from Volkswagen's diesel is okay, but I want more like 200-250 hp in a small car.
Please don't let the horsepower number fool you, the 2.0 liter TDI puts out gobs of torque and at pretty much any speed above ten mph, the TDI is just a hair faster than the 170 hp 2.5 liter gasser that can be had in many VW offerings. I've heard tell of ECU flashes (which may or may not require larger injectors) from aftermarket companies that bring the TDI up to ~170 hp but I cannot speak about the efficacy of those upgrades first hand.
So a diesel version of a Mazdaspeed3 would be perfect! Heh heh heh. (no, seriously, it would be for me)
A diesel MazdaSpeed3? I rather doubt we'll see such a beastie before the hear 2020, if ever.
I personally am still on the fence (after 22,000 miles) whether or not the extra "hp" is worth the mpg trade off on the Jetta TDI.
That makes it one heck of a hot-hatch.
And if someone could make a hot-hatch diesel... I'd be all over it, drooling (most likely).
When (if?) it arrives, I'd be all over it.
Probably a good way to look at it would be, why doesn't Mazda make a gasser turbo that does get 425 # ft of torque????
Even most BMW owners have really not embraced the BMW 335 D, if the 2009.2010,2011 sales figures are any indicator. Again I am sure for a lot of reasons they only offer an automatic in their turbo diesel. They probably have a clutch, gear mismatch for a 6 speed manual (not robust enough) . This truly is a MONSTER CAR. Having said that, @ 3825 #'s I wish it were app 800#'s to 900#'s lighter.
But of course this is a personal decision and not on my radar. I can't really judge if such a rig is worth spending $50K, because mostly I see these trucks at leisure, not at work, and watching them with one person in the cab, and an empty bed, all shiny and pristine, I just have to wonder what the heck people are doing with these things. :confuse:
I guess I'm a small diesel guy, not a big diesel guy. :P
But I agree, I do scratch my head when I see a diesel truck rated to carry 5,000 lbs in the bed (!!!) with one bag of dog food in the back. :shades:
Cylinder Block R8003549AA $9420.00"
Since I read the above comment yesterday I've been kind of puzzling over what it has to do with this discussion. The thing is, unless a rod is thrown through the skirt, there won't be a need for a block replacement for several million miles. As I understand it, the Cummins engine in the Dodge pick-ups is a full duty-cycle commercial engine no less robust than the diesels that move commercial vehicles around our country. I also suspect the Ford and GM engines in the general vicinity of robustness as well.
I was talking with one of the senior drivers of the commuter bus line which I ride in and out of Boston every day; he told me the owner's philosophy is PM his engines by remanufacturing them to a "Zero Time" state every time they hit a million mile threshold; regardless of how well the engine is running. I'm thinking each block could withstand at least two over-bores before a replacement block would be necessary, of course after three million miles, it might be more than the block which needs replacing.
kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
DODGE KABOOM
Well, in the Class 8 world (Cummins 855 cid, Cat) the block just holds the liners. I don't follow the pickup truck wanna-be diesels, but if they have liners the block will last forever, unless the top counterbore (where the liner sits) pounds out. That happens in earth-moving machinery, but there are ways to reline the block even then. I don't think it's a factor for pickups that pull a trailer 10% of the time.
When I was involved, Class 8 truck engine overhauls were either "in-frame" or complete. An in-frame involved reworking the heads & replacing the liners. The pull-the-engine version includes the crank & all bearings, plus the above. Cummins would generally run up to 250K miles for an in-frame and Cat went up to 400K or more. All of this assumed careful oil maintenance, such that the bearings stayed alive.
Running a block for 2 or 3 million miles can certainly be done, but there are many liners and at least a few sets of bearings involved.
So why do the idiots idle them for hours on end?
My neighbor got a lift the other morning at 7:30 am and the nephew let his diesel pickup idle for ten minutes while he had coffee or something before they left.
Are diesels that fragile that you can't turn them off and hope they restart a minute later? I never see UPS drivers doing that.
People usually idle diesels for reasons other than the engine (keeping heat or AC on, PTO operation, etc.). Only time I idle my truck for an extended period of time is after a snowfall - I'll start the truck, fire up the defroster, then start clearing snow. By the time I get to the windshield, the defroster has thoroughly warmed the glass and it's an easy clear.
Starting a diesel engine is no small task, though - that's why they have (at least) two batteries in truck and bus applications. The HD pickups usually come with a pair of 750CCA units. But if the engine is well maintained and the batteries/alternator are running well, restarting a warm engine is no sweat.
kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
In my town I learned to spell the word " diesel" as "diesel," not the way some of you spell it on Edmunds......... :sick:
Boys and Girls,
" i before e except after c"
Running a block for 2 or 3 million miles can certainly be done, but there are many liners and at least a few sets of bearings involved.
I just did a little research and came up with the fact that the I6 diesel in the Dodge Ram trucks is the same basic engine as the units that run the commuter busses I ride into Boston every day. The busses run a somewhat larger engine (ISL 8.9 liters versus ISB 6.7 liter); I'm thinking if that engine can push these busses (I'm riding on one now) to over a million miles without an overhaul, they should have no problem doing it in a Dodge pickup truck.
For whatever the reasons, we have been mantra'd to believe in and ultimately practice a so called "throw away" attitude toward passenger cars and to a slightly lesser extent on light trucks. The fact of the matter, very very few vehicle items has/have the basic function changed much. Here are some examples: 1. brake rotors 2. brake pads 3. strut and shocks 4. batteries 5. tires 6. springs 7. turbos 8. fuel systems 9. etc
On many levels, it really makes not a lot of sense to get a new car when any to all of the above need/s changing. This might be especially true in todays' chaotic economic environment. Anymore having a monthly payment for ANYTHING can be a boat anchor looking for a place to hit rock bottom.
I am thinking if I buy a new vehicle it will be my last. So I want something that gets decent mileage on the highway. Mercedes has held out the best looking carrot so far. Will it make it to the USA? That is the question. I emailed a couple MB dealers that always send me their flyers. So far no response on the 2012 ML250 Bluetec.
Besides, if everyone in the USA decided to keep their vehicles long enough to get 400K on them, the auto industry would collapse.
Even more realistic is the probability that the rest of the truck will fall apart long before 400K---you'd be left with an engine surrounded by tattered dented rusted debris, judging by how *most* Americans care for their vehicles (we aren't the best). That's 33 years of driving remember, at the average of 12,000 miles a year.