Statistical engineering is probably an even more arcane subject than fuel injector specifications !!?? :shades:
Statistical driving of diesels probably makes a lot of folks eyes glaze over. I do like the 03 TDI however. the range of 44 mpg (low) to 62 mpg is way cool. It is probably not even close to the REAL range one can actually achieve. Yet 48-52 mpg is another range that takes absolutely not too many brain cells to post.
I find that rhapsodizing over "longevity" makes my eyes glaze over, because so very very few people will ever keep a car long enough to rack up those X miles everyone talks about " Yeah, those babies will go 1/2 million miles no problem".
Perhaps true, but do the math at 12,000 miles a year.
To put it in perspective, to show 1/2 mil on your current speedometer, you'd be driving a 1970 car you bought new.
I find that rhapsodizing over "longevity" makes my eyes glaze over
Me too. My Sequoia is still under 24,000 miles and I am ready to sell it. Our 21 year old Lexus just turned over 104K miles. I am tired of it as well. It is just not worth anything, so I keep it. I don't think I will put 100k miles on any new vehicle I get. Though at 39+ MPG on the highway when I get my new ML 250 Bluetec, I will probably do more driving and less flying.
Dealer says they have not gotten any info yet for ordering.
In a lot of ways, I would also agree ! I am actually tired of ONLY getting 48-52 mpg !! :surprise: :lemon:
It would seem that the powers that be would have us run into a brick wall so to speak, when they run the price of fuel up,.... to $$$ 4,5,6,7,8,9,10, per gal, and not offer many over 35 mpg options, the upcoming 2012 standard .
That's pretty ironic in that I just heard a PO sound bite that bemoaned $4.00 per gal gas as a HUGE drain/enemy on the economy, the American consumer family, etc.
On the other hand, HIS energy secretary (PO's) does not hide the opinion that the price of US gasoline really needs to hit European levels , of which "we"(his WE, not mine!) need to creatively fiqure out HOW to get it THERE & ASAP !! ?? (which are @ 8,9,10 per gal already). Now that might be their good news!?? The bad news? Well, WE will be paying much more per mile driven than even Europe does !!!!! ???? Wow and many EU countries have been bailed out: Ireland, Portugal, etc. Oh and did we know Greece that socialist government is hinting DEFAULT? :surprise: Many other EU countries are lining up also?
Tell that to the 85,000 children living in poverty in Norway. Up from 50,000 just in 4 years. All while the fat cat king extorts most of the oil wealth from the citizens. You have bought into the Norway myth.
85,000 out of over 4 million people. As compared to, say, Detroit? Half the kids there are living in proverty (and that was in 2004. Population in the city then was ~750,000 per the Detroit Free Press).
Sounds like it helps a bit if your economy includes the capacity to mine diesel fuel.
Gas is down about 31 cents the last six weeks while diesel has fallen 17 cents. National average for gas is $3.65; average for diesel is $3.95. (Transport Topics)
Probably a result of a flood of third worlders as Norway has experienced in the past decade. Still less poverty there than here, although the multiculturalist one worlders will do what they can to end that.
Speaking of gas prices, no recent local declines that I have noticed...paid $4.14 or something for Chevron premium yesterday, the same I think as 2 weeks ago.
This is the diesel thread man. :shades: When you were last in Germany did you drive any of the S class with the 250 Bluetec. I think they are also used in the E class. I am jazzed about that vehicle. I don't need a rocket. I just want a quiet comfortable safe cruiser getting great mileage and range.
There's an S350 diesel which is probably the best selling S-class model there, the largest car the 250 is offered in is the CLS. We are getting the E350 Bluetec now, and the C is just around the corner IIRC.
Well, given that in America there is little economic advantage to buying a diesel car (that is, the cost of the diesel car and the cost of the fuel can't justify buying one based solely on fuel savings)...then it seems to me the only way to sell diesels in greater numbers in America (or sell one to ME, for that matter) is to give the diesel vehicles other conspicuous attributes on top of the great fuel savings.
How might diesels be marketing other than from the "fuel-stingy" point of view?
Given your post and question, as more broader indicators and not personally, it would appear that even the evironcon faithful do not believe their own global warming, import oil, and finite resources, etc., etc., BLATHER. To me, it has always been an issue of do what I (envirocons) say, not as I do.
What is very to CHRYSTAL clear is there are literally gravity and freight train movements toward higher prices (diesel and rug to pug in this context) which will do absolutely nothing about the REASONS given for the BLATHER: global warming, import oil and finite resources.
What is all the more galling and disengenuous,DIESEL is an easy portal to self sufficiency: bio diesel is being almost totally ignored and conversationally and policy wise is being relegated to the so called "lunatic FRINGE" categories, once the categories assigned for "flaming liberals" . Biodiesel is LITERALLY manufactureable AND at ANY to all logistical levels. It truly can come from ones back yard to down the street from a MOM & POP business, or if we still like the nimby concept, the middle east, and from people, regimes and regions dedicated to wiping us off the face of the planet.
That being said, diesels are infinitely more adapted to our roads than they are for European markets. We normally have to bridge a scale that Europeans do not have to. Indeed according to a post the host Steve linked some posts back, Europeans do an average of 8,700 miles yearly to our 12,000 to 15,000 miles. Even poor economic conditions with 12.5 to 15% unemployment has neither changed this statistic and only cut back growth of oil USE 1%. So in effect growth, albeit 1% slower: continues ever UPWARD. Car and driver populations are app the same. Euro being 270.4 M cars and US being 258.4 M cars. So perhaps "GUTTING" of cities like Detroit is part of the LONGER term plans !? Take away literally the economic engines and don't replace it with anything else and....VIOLA !? :sick: :lemon: 40-44 square miles of a one teaming and unlimited potential 140 sq mile city is non performing!!!!
Well the human condition is such that even though global warming is absolutely real, the effects of it are often not experienced locally--given the complex nature of global climate systems. What is melting ice in some far off place to you or me?
While it is true that people of all political and ideological stripes talk a far better game than they practice (if this were not so, we would not need things like laws, satire, and the concept of Hell), the fact of escalating fuel prices is a kind of wake-up call.
Humans generally start to act when things start to get *really bad*---and by that time, it's often too late to do anything about it.
The smart ones, however (the ones who will survive and thrive) to tend to anticipate the bad news. Given that, the future of the USA doesn't look too promising in terms of "clean energy" research. We have the brains, but not the will to do it. When I hear cries for "more drilling" and squeezing oil out of rocks, I regard it as not much more than mass denial of reality.
It's not all grim, however. Since this is an automotive site, we could mention the sales curve for smaller, fuel efficient cars over the last 5 years in the USA, and, at least the FRAMING of the energy question in public debate.
Perhaps people using used peanut oil from Chinese restaurants and reprocessing it in their garages are part of the so-called "lunatic fringe" but I think commercial biodiesel products are taken quite seriously by people, and respected.
The problem is that so much of what we do is economically-driven. Biodiesel is still too expensive vis a vis gasoline or even regular diesel.
Am I so pure, so ideologically driven, that I will spend MORE for fuel so that I can feel smug and "clean"?
Good question. I really don't know if I'm ready to walk my talk.
Going from gas to diesel, even with the mpg savings, is still substituting oil for oil. So that's not real attractive from a green perspective compared to going EV and buying "green" energy to fuel it.
The mpg appeals to the frugal types, but diesel has a reputation as a dirty fuel to the green crowd.
To the frugal crowd, diesel has a reputation as a finicky engine that is expensive to work on. Plus the perception is that it's hard to find mechanics who can fix them.
Maybe diesel pushers should focus on torque, handling and towing and just toss in mpg as a nice little bonus.
Let me ask a dumb question. IF I can make biodiesel in my yard for .75 cents, why would I want to go a mile away (my corner store) to buy a gal of diesel for $4.27 ?
The goverment should encourage the former, yet it should be blantantly apparent they even discourage buying diesel.
EV products should be label 50% driven by coal. Coal converted energy is stored by environmentally destructive arrays of BATTERIES. NNN, it is more energy intense than bio diesel or even diesel for that matter.
But then again a good (REAL) reason why we fight in Afghanistan.? (besides the drug (opiate and derivatives) flow) Somebody ought to tell the powers that be that CHINA is already locking up the rare earth mineral rights !!! We (USA) as a people should shudder to think that we are China's defacto "MAFIA" force.
Well the reason you would pay $4.27 is for CONVENIENCE. It's the same reason why people trade in their cars to dealers, rather than sell them privately, often losing thousands of dollars in the process.
I suppose if you are retired and on a tidy fixed income, you have the time to home-brew your fuel...but most people don't have this time or income.
In other words, I can either spend an hour making biodiesel in my back yard, or I can work for X minutes and buy a gallon of it.
I am not sure if this is far from you but the city of Berkeley's refuse dump (sorry I know that is NOT PC) some years ago found a way to process app 40,000 gals a year of biodiesel. They found that to dispense it is a so called RETAIL location the major impediments were (THEMSELVES) their own regulations !!!!! When the light finally came on, they were able to put a retail location (coop actually) in play.
Well, good. "rules" are like "The Budget" --it's all written by people and can be amended by people. These are not sacred writings. I'm not a big fan of going "backwards" however. A rule amendment is not the same as a rule abolition.
Let's look into a crystal ball for fun and see what the world is using for power and transportation in 500 years:
- Fusion power - military use or large scale power only. - Fission power - largely not used - too dirty and inefficient. - Oil - gone. - Coal - too dirty and mostly gone by then. - Hydro-Electric power. Mostly for power generation. - Solar - large scale farms. - Wind - also, large scale use. (I'm voting on thermal towers myself as they offer very good efficiency and low impact)
For vehicle use:
- Biodiesel made from waste wood/plant materials and trash, mostly. - CNG and other similar fuels. This will be in use as well since we can artificially create some of these in a factory instead of having to drill of them. Limited use, though. - Electric, mostly based upon fuel cells. - Hydrogen. With enough electricity, it's possible to make an infinite supply with no waste products. - Compressed air - this will be used as well on a limited basis. They even have such a car now in France. - Steam. Large scale power will be high tech. Everything else will be as basic as possible to save resources. Mostly used for large-scale transportation like trains and so on.
Of this list, though, CNG and bio-Diesel are currently in use/developed and offer a workable solution as a bridge to fuel cells and other alternative technologies. Gasoline, Diesel, and most batteries simply have no viable future and their time is almost done.
I think the current oems that are offering diesels are probably just fine with the more narrow field of diesel offerings.
Indeed growth has been pretty electric, if going from one half of 1 percent diesel cars (1.272 M)and 2% diesel (5.168 M) with 75+% being light trucks: to 5% diesel (12.92 M) and 50% being light trucks (6.46 M cars and trucks). Growth in cars is app 508%. Light (but really HEAVY) trucks have grown 166%.
Not many years ago there used to be an SUV thread that seemed to attract a lot of posting. My point being (there are a lot of others) that SUV's as a segment took app 30 years to go from 1 to 2% of the passenger vehicle fleet to where it currently is @ 12% of the vehicle fleet. There was (were) a majority segment that thought SUV growth was MASSIVE. While I respect that feeling and opinion, the math actually indicated the EXACT opposite. (app .00367 per year) Passenger diesel growth is app 41% faster per year.
Interestingly enough there were actually a lot of cheer leading (legislative, regulatory, market etc) for SUV growth.
On the other hand, probably not so much for the diesels, which can have 20-40%+ mpg advantages.
So for example, while I am still a tad skeptical at JD Powers prediction of 12% diesel (by 2018?, if I remember correctly) that would be a min of 31 M diesels. So if the American oems were to jump in, my swag are the engines used would be from the European to WW subsidiaries
I personally did not follow the diesel experiences in the late 70's 80's and 90's. I was aware of diesels however.
I would hope the old American diesel experience would be a warning/reminder to NOT repeat that experience again, should American oems decide to put American diesels on the American market.
This is almost totally opaque to the American market of American car buyers but in American oems in European and other world wide markets, market and I would assume are semi to sucessful with those products.
Sure you could sell an American diesel car in China because they have no idea how bad the last ones we made were. This is probably also why Buick is kicking butt in China--to them, Buick has always been a good car. They didn't get to go through the bad part like we did.
Americans have a lot of bad diesel car memories--not just the GM diesels in the Cadillac, but even the Mercedes diesels (formidable, but slow and noisy), and the rather pathetic early VW diesel pickup trucks, and the ill-conceived diesel Volvos and Isuzu Pups.
I know some tiny slice of enthusiasts still restore and drive these early diesels with a degree of success, but as brand new merchandise in a competitive world, they didn't have the right stuff to succeed here in the USA.
I can also think of precious few gassers that I would buy again !!? When I get to "rhapsodizing "about the "muscle cars" of my youth, it is more of maintaining the styling cues, maintaining the "look", but having almost all new components and that is from the frame on UP, or down as the case might be.
An example would be late model Corvette engines, Tremec 6066 6 speed manual transmission, Corvette suspensions, etc. As far as the "good ole days"; THESE ARE the good old days !!!
Given the V-8's small 327 CI/ large block 427 CI "success stories", I wonder how a turbo to twin turbo diesel offering would do in those sizes.
Just received a discouraging correspondence from MBUSA.
Dear Mr. Grice.
The ML350 BlueTEC will be available in September 2011. Currently there are no plans to import the ML250 BlueTEC into the U.S. market.
Sincerely,
Chris M. Mercedes-Benz USA LLC
We are again relegated to the 3rd World status. Our cheap fuel may be the reason companies like Mercedes think we all want fire breathing gas guzzlers. Even VW has now extended their offering the Tiguan TDI until 2015. :sick:
The only positive is I can buy a heck of a lot of gas for $50k I would have spent on a new vehicle. Even at $5 per gallon I can travel 170,000 miles in my Sequoia.
Well bad for you but probably a good move for MB not to import it. Perhaps they feel it will undercut the ML 350? Weren't they planning to import the E 250 Blutec sedan here? What happened with that? Same deal?
The E 250 Bluetec was supposed to be here in 2010. It made its debut at NYC in 2009. I cannot imagine anyone buying the E350 Bluetec if the E250 was available. That may be what MB is worried about. The S250 diesel was also supposed to be sold here. This from Edmund's in 2008.
More good news on the diesel front: Mercedes-Benz says it will launch a new generation of super-efficient diesel engines later this year, starting with a 2.2-liter four-cylinder "BlueEfficiency" powerplant.
A 4 cylinder with 369 # ft of torque and getting app 45 mpg? That is 56.4% better than the VW's 2.0 L @ 236 # ft, and gets 2 to 5 better mpg to boot!?? Absolutely phenomenal incremental tweak, albeit dual stage supercharging. It makes all the sense in the world why it will not be sold in the US markets.
This might be nit picking, but if MB can mate that to a sub 3,000# vehicle WOW !
The real ABSOLUTELY HUGE "NON" issue ISSUE (got to get into the envircon double to triple speak) is the absolutely HUGE discovery of on (USA) continent (off continent also) of natural gas. !!! ???
Exxon Mobil actually does current advertisements on the TV SAT Cable stations.
Conservative estimates are 200 to 500 years supply. This is interesting in that energy was supposed to run out, ... 50-100 years ago. :sick: So really to the envircons, the JIG is really UP !! They of course don't want folks to really know that.
When you intergrate the GTL technologies, a graphic is natural gas to ULSD, it truly dials out barrels of oil (aka gasoline) and in effect wind, solar, alternatives.
GTL ULSD is ULTRA clean and at all points in the logistic chain. Thisis unlike barrels of oil, where the sulfur content has to be removed. So for example, why the envirocons want or advocate $10 per gal gasoline are because those are the pricing points that make wind and solar etc. "alternatives" economical. 25-30 years from now all those solar projects will look like the "PET ROCK equivalent!! So look to natural gas being the new envircon PUBLIC enemy number ONE !!! Natural gas is EXTRAORDINARILY inexpensive !!!!!!!!!!!! Not a very convenient truth, when you are painting the shortage and armaggedon picture and more short term $10. per gal gasoline !! :lemon:
Chevron lists this as their current ratio :
..."We have partnered with the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation and Sasol to build a GTL plant expected to convert 325 million cubic feet of natural gas per day into 33,000 barrels of liquids—principally synthetic diesel. When completed, the plant is expected to supply diesel fuel for cars and trucks in Europe and elsewhere. The plant is expected to begin production in 2013."...
At the 2011 Buenos Aires International Auto Show, Chevrolet revealed the Colorado Rally, a second show truck version of its next generation global midsize pickup. The debut of the adventure themed vehicle follows the reveal of the first Colorado show truck at the Bangkok Motor Show in April 2011. "Both trucks give a glimpse of the next generation Chevrolet global midsize pickup, which is of huge importance to consumers in many countries around the world. For example, in Brazil, costumers made Chevrolet's midsize truck the vehicle segment leader for 16 consecutive years," said Brad Merkel, GM Global Vehicle Line Executive.
4WD, powered by an efficient 2.8 liter turbo-diesel engine, which generates high torque, Chevrolet Colorado Rally is perfect for the needs in the off road roads/tracks
As we quickly become just another country behind China and India, we will be left out more and more. The USA is an insignificant player in the Global marketplace.
PS We bailed out those losers at GM and this is the thanks we get.
GM and Ford both have offered much cooler products in other markets for years. The average American buyer is mostly a cheapskate and IMO also doesn't know much better or care to know much better.
I do not know GM's market share in China or India, but I think through an ironic series of circumstances, it is probably higher than in the US markets ! ?
I believe last year (our worst US market auto sales of 10.5 M) China alone sold 14+ M passenger vehicles. !!!
That's all pie in the sky at this point (or better yet, deep in the ocean) and still has serious environmental consequences (and perhaps geopolitical ones) . At best, as Pickens points out, natural gas could be a transitional fuel until we get somewhere more sustainable. Natural gas is non-renewable, so to me it's still short-term thinking.
Wait, you mean the same "offshore" reserves that caused a major oil disaster last year? Getting deep sea oil or gas hydrates safely is proving to be a horrendous task. There are also many potential problems with safety as well. If something goes wrong, we could be looking at a massive ecological disaster.
So it's really not that viable in the immediate future. Biodiesel (B100) just requires some microbes and plant material. Well, we have huge amounts of that lying around and likely always will.
Natural gas is probably one of the MOST renewable !! I think the real trap is falling into the concept that there is ONLY ONE 100% magic bullet for energy replacement. The other trap is not actually " DE chunk ing" up the problem so we don't get ourselves once again into 98% RUG to PUG from mid east oil as the 100% solution, again.
So for example, while solar and wind are/can be ONE viable alternative, it is along the lines (depending on their peak or shall I say lack of peak ness) of OFF peak most of the time (5 to max 10% efficient and I am an optimist!! ).
Another example is in CA envirocon nivana, the electric utility can BARELY keep up with demand !! What do you think will happen when they add a electrical charger unit for one let alone one electric car let alone a "fleet" of (say 6) electric cars?. Yet every other year we lose the contents of a normal sized refrigerator freezer, which the utility is liable for (normally app $500). YET it is impossible to put stuff like that on a solar panel back up circuit !?
Japan, at some point in the future has to replace the electrical production from the nuclear plant that has gone off line. I have heard liberal news media say the plant fulfills 10% of that nations demand. How many windmills and solar panels do you think it will now take to be at par let alone allow for growth? The problem is literally STAGGERING.
I think you have to remember a couple of things, one are that the oceans (this is not pc, but the graphic is graphic) literally FART methane (it pressure stores it also) and in HUGE HUGE HUGE quantities and volumes. The scale is almost literally unimaginable. The task is literally to capture it for use/consumption. The other is why deep ocen drilling is done is the NIMBY concept when it comes to on shore drilling.
Yeah but in the case of offshore drilling, or nuclear power plants, *everyone* is a NIMBY. I can't imagine one sane person who goes to a beach or lives near one that would vote for an oil rig in plain sight of their Sunday afternoon, or a nuke plant in their backyard, in order to pay .50 cents less a gallon for the gas.
I really like the idea of using garbage for fuel---now that is creative thinking.
re: Renewable natural gas--- that's called "biogas"--it's not the stuff offshore.
Well then REALLY you agree with my point, get multiple alternatives, etc (diesel being one),
and get those alternatives from multiple sources: GTL, conventional oil,
bio diesel, bio diesel blends from B5 to B100, BD from algae, process waste, recycled and sewer waste, etc, etc.
So what really everyone is implying is there is another 100% magic bullet that is not from,...barrels of oil, aka gasoline.
So for example, we have a solor panel manufacturing plant plant YOU all put here. (gov put $555 M to put the plant not far from here) Do you think it is a tad ironic that the solar panel manufacturing plant does not get or supply any appreciable % of energy for its own needs from...solar panels????? lSolyndra
Well you know, mostly ALL the good ideas we ever got started out as "elitist" concepts that didn't make money at first.
Yeah I do regard diesel as a transitional type of fuel/vehicle that might serve me until something even more efficient comes along.
Diesel cars strike me as both a "sideways" and an vertical move, but not a dramatic one.
It's possible for instance that diesel cars will suffer the same fate as seems to be befalling hybrids----the gas-only competition has just about caught up to them.
Every time someone counts out the gasoline powered piston engine, it comes to its knees, shakes itself off, and comes back punching.
So I dunno.....but for right now in 2011, a 50 mpg diesel sport wagon looks mighty attractive to me.
Diesel has been transitional for what 118 years? (circa 1983)
I do not and never have counted the gasoline engine out. It is the natural consequence of flawed (envirocon's) arguments.
But yes, a 50 mpg diesel works well in reality (relatively). That very same product in a gasser posts 27.5 mpg. That diesel posts a min of 69% better mpg. :shades: But then on the other hand, what do envircons really care? :sick: Overwhelmingly, WE have chosen gassers (over 95%) that burn much more (than diesel/biodiesel).
What is an envirocon? A conservative environmentalist?
There ARE such people actually, especially farmers. Every farmer's market you see is a good example.
Environmentalism is going to be big business. You can already see the big boys jumping in, although often in the worst possible way (e.g. ethanol, which is worthless). And China is going into the green industry in a huge way--and I guess we could call the Chinese government "convservative" -- LOL!
But I think the current administration will eventually cut off ethanol subsidy, once they figure out how to do it gracefully (not easy).
so either the USA will have to jump start its research on green technology, or we'll be buying it at high retail from Asia in ten years.
or we'll be buying it at high retail from Asia in ten years.
We already are. Most solar, batteries, Wind generators, electric motors are being built in China. Much of the R&D paid by US the tax payers and the manufacturing sent to China.
I think of Envirocon as a person that uses the environment to cover a scam or Con. Think Al Gore.
Most of the time being conservative is best for the environment. Waste not, want not.
Well, I tell you, I wish I had 50,000 acres in corn. AND another 50,000 acres in soybeans AND another 50,000 acres with access to water for biodiesel from algae. All but the last have tax credits that you would not believe. The poor get app 70 B in "coupons" !!??
Ah, I see....so it's the "con" as in "con man". Well yes plenty of enviro-scams going on from all directions.
How was Al Gore a "scam", though? I mean, I KNOW he didn't practice what he was preaching (I am shocked....SHOCKED...that a politician would do this! :surprise: ) however, his science was essentially correct (minus the drama I mean, which is not scientific) . Carbon is being released in huge quantities into the atmosphere (fact) and we can measure that (fact) and we know that such a release increases temperature (fact) but we aren't sure if people caused this or merely contribute to a natural cause (all still in debate) . ....I guess what I mean is that science is right whether the person stating a fact is a hypocrite or a wife-beater or a bad teacher, or whatever, and it remains correct whether someone believes the science or not.
Even people who believe the earth is flat still go around the sun once a year. :P
Given the size of the dice being rolled, you'd wanna be on the safe side here.
My motivation for buying a "greener" car is not to keep the earth from warming up, however....I'm glad that's a by-product (maybe) but my motivation is to keep my resources from being bled dry by fuel prices.
When my some-what thrifty car blows up, I'll have to buy another car ANYWAY, so why not a green diesely one?---as long as its a) fun and b) affordable.
I don't like hybrids, I'm not going to drive a Toyota Echo or a Smart car, so a diesel makes more and more sense to me.
Comments
Statistical driving of diesels probably makes a lot of folks eyes glaze over. I do like the 03 TDI however. the range of 44 mpg (low) to 62 mpg is way cool. It is probably not even close to the REAL range one can actually achieve. Yet 48-52 mpg is another range that takes absolutely not too many brain cells to post.
Perhaps true, but do the math at 12,000 miles a year.
To put it in perspective, to show 1/2 mil on your current speedometer, you'd be driving a 1970 car you bought new.
Me too. My Sequoia is still under 24,000 miles and I am ready to sell it. Our 21 year old Lexus just turned over 104K miles. I am tired of it as well. It is just not worth anything, so I keep it. I don't think I will put 100k miles on any new vehicle I get. Though at 39+ MPG on the highway when I get my new ML 250 Bluetec, I will probably do more driving and less flying.
Dealer says they have not gotten any info yet for ordering.
It would seem that the powers that be would have us run into a brick wall so to speak, when they run the price of fuel up,.... to $$$ 4,5,6,7,8,9,10, per gal, and not offer many over 35 mpg options, the upcoming 2012 standard
That's pretty ironic in that I just heard a PO sound bite that bemoaned $4.00 per gal gas as a HUGE drain/enemy on the economy, the American consumer family, etc.
On the other hand, HIS energy secretary (PO's) does not hide the opinion that the price of US gasoline really needs to hit European levels , of which "we"(his WE, not mine!) need to creatively fiqure out HOW to get it THERE & ASAP !! ?? (which are @ 8,9,10 per gal already). Now that might be their good news!?? The bad news? Well, WE will be paying much more per mile driven than even Europe does !!!!! ???? Wow and many EU countries have been bailed out: Ireland, Portugal, etc. Oh and did we know Greece that socialist government is hinting DEFAULT? :surprise:
I think Norway is doing quite well and you can't get more socialist than that. THey get most of their revenue from value-added taxes.
They stayed out of OPEC and I believe they have a pretty shrewd energy policy.
However, they are past their peak oil production at present.
http://sarojspanorama.blogspot.com/2009/09/poverty-in-norway.html
Sounds like it helps a bit if your economy includes the capacity to mine diesel fuel.
Gas is down about 31 cents the last six weeks while diesel has fallen 17 cents. National average for gas is $3.65; average for diesel is $3.95. (Transport Topics)
Speaking of gas prices, no recent local declines that I have noticed...paid $4.14 or something for Chevron premium yesterday, the same I think as 2 weeks ago.
This is the diesel thread man. :shades: When you were last in Germany did you drive any of the S class with the 250 Bluetec. I think they are also used in the E class. I am jazzed about that vehicle. I don't need a rocket. I just want a quiet comfortable safe cruiser getting great mileage and range.
How might diesels be marketing other than from the "fuel-stingy" point of view?
What is very to CHRYSTAL clear is there are literally gravity and freight train movements toward higher prices (diesel and rug to pug in this context) which will do absolutely nothing about the REASONS given for the BLATHER: global warming, import oil and finite resources.
What is all the more galling and disengenuous,DIESEL is an easy portal to self sufficiency: bio diesel is being almost totally ignored and conversationally and policy wise is being relegated to the so called "lunatic FRINGE" categories, once the categories assigned for "flaming liberals"
That being said, diesels are infinitely more adapted to our roads than they are for European markets. We normally have to bridge a scale that Europeans do not have to. Indeed according to a post the host Steve linked some posts back, Europeans do an average of 8,700 miles yearly to our 12,000 to 15,000 miles. Even poor economic conditions with 12.5 to 15% unemployment has neither changed this statistic and only cut back growth of oil USE 1%. So in effect growth, albeit 1% slower: continues ever UPWARD. Car and driver populations are app the same. Euro being 270.4 M cars and US being 258.4 M cars. So perhaps "GUTTING" of cities like Detroit is part of the LONGER term plans !? Take away literally the economic engines and don't replace it with anything else and....VIOLA !? :sick: :lemon: 40-44 square miles of a one teaming and unlimited potential 140 sq mile city is non performing!!!!
While it is true that people of all political and ideological stripes talk a far better game than they practice (if this were not so, we would not need things like laws, satire, and the concept of Hell), the fact of escalating fuel prices is a kind of wake-up call.
Humans generally start to act when things start to get *really bad*---and by that time, it's often too late to do anything about it.
The smart ones, however (the ones who will survive and thrive) to tend to anticipate the bad news. Given that, the future of the USA doesn't look too promising in terms of "clean energy" research. We have the brains, but not the will to do it. When I hear cries for "more drilling" and squeezing oil out of rocks, I regard it as not much more than mass denial of reality.
It's not all grim, however. Since this is an automotive site, we could mention the sales curve for smaller, fuel efficient cars over the last 5 years in the USA, and, at least the FRAMING of the energy question in public debate.
Perhaps people using used peanut oil from Chinese restaurants and reprocessing it in their garages are part of the so-called "lunatic fringe" but I think commercial biodiesel products are taken quite seriously by people, and respected.
The problem is that so much of what we do is economically-driven. Biodiesel is still too expensive vis a vis gasoline or even regular diesel.
Am I so pure, so ideologically driven, that I will spend MORE for fuel so that I can feel smug and "clean"?
Good question. I really don't know if I'm ready to walk my talk.
The mpg appeals to the frugal types, but diesel has a reputation as a dirty fuel to the green crowd.
To the frugal crowd, diesel has a reputation as a finicky engine that is expensive to work on. Plus the perception is that it's hard to find mechanics who can fix them.
Maybe diesel pushers should focus on torque, handling and towing and just toss in mpg as a nice little bonus.
The goverment should encourage the former, yet it should be blantantly apparent they even discourage buying diesel.
But then again a good (REAL) reason why we fight in Afghanistan.? (besides the drug (opiate and derivatives) flow) Somebody ought to tell the powers that be that CHINA is already locking up the rare earth mineral rights !!! We (USA) as a people should shudder to think that we are China's defacto "MAFIA" force.
I suppose if you are retired and on a tidy fixed income, you have the time to home-brew your fuel...but most people don't have this time or income.
In other words, I can either spend an hour making biodiesel in my back yard, or I can work for X minutes and buy a gallon of it.
The greens will pay extra for the solar/wind generated flavor. They already are.
Let's look into a crystal ball for fun and see what the world is using for power and transportation in 500 years:
- Fusion power - military use or large scale power only.
- Fission power - largely not used - too dirty and inefficient.
- Oil - gone.
- Coal - too dirty and mostly gone by then.
- Hydro-Electric power. Mostly for power generation.
- Solar - large scale farms.
- Wind - also, large scale use. (I'm voting on thermal towers myself as they offer very good efficiency and low impact)
For vehicle use:
- Biodiesel made from waste wood/plant materials and trash, mostly.
- CNG and other similar fuels. This will be in use as well since we can artificially create some of these in a factory instead of having to drill of them. Limited use, though.
- Electric, mostly based upon fuel cells.
- Hydrogen. With enough electricity, it's possible to make an infinite supply with no waste products.
- Compressed air - this will be used as well on a limited basis. They even have such a car now in France.
- Steam. Large scale power will be high tech. Everything else will be as basic as possible to save resources. Mostly used for large-scale transportation like trains and so on.
Of this list, though, CNG and bio-Diesel are currently in use/developed and offer a workable solution as a bridge to fuel cells and other alternative technologies. Gasoline, Diesel, and most batteries simply have no viable future and their time is almost done.
For me anyway, in the cars I like, I consider 2 versions - the tuned sport model, or a diesel. The "normals" don't interest me.
Indeed growth has been pretty electric, if going from one half of 1 percent diesel cars (1.272 M)and 2% diesel (5.168 M) with 75+% being light trucks: to 5% diesel (12.92 M) and 50% being light trucks (6.46 M cars and trucks). Growth in cars is app 508%. Light (but really HEAVY) trucks have grown 166%.
Interestingly enough there were actually a lot of cheer leading (legislative, regulatory, market etc) for SUV growth.
On the other hand, probably not so much for the diesels, which can have 20-40%+ mpg advantages.
So for example, while I am still a tad skeptical at JD Powers prediction of 12% diesel (by 2018?, if I remember correctly) that would be a min of 31 M diesels. So if the American oems were to jump in, my swag are the engines used would be from the European to WW subsidiaries
12% seems optimistic to me. That's way bigger than the hybrid market is right now.
I would hope the old American diesel experience would be a warning/reminder to NOT repeat that experience again, should American oems decide to put American diesels on the American market.
This is almost totally opaque to the American market of American car buyers but in American oems in European and other world wide markets, market and I would assume are semi to sucessful with those products.
Americans have a lot of bad diesel car memories--not just the GM diesels in the Cadillac, but even the Mercedes diesels (formidable, but slow and noisy), and the rather pathetic early VW diesel pickup trucks, and the ill-conceived diesel Volvos and Isuzu Pups.
I know some tiny slice of enthusiasts still restore and drive these early diesels with a degree of success, but as brand new merchandise in a competitive world, they didn't have the right stuff to succeed here in the USA.
An example would be late model Corvette engines, Tremec 6066 6 speed manual transmission, Corvette suspensions, etc. As far as the "good ole days"; THESE ARE the good old days !!!
Given the V-8's small 327 CI/ large block 427 CI "success stories", I wonder how a turbo to twin turbo diesel offering would do in those sizes.
Dear Mr. Grice.
The ML350 BlueTEC will be available in September 2011.
Currently there are no plans to import the ML250 BlueTEC into the U.S.
market.
Sincerely,
Chris M.
Mercedes-Benz USA LLC
We are again relegated to the 3rd World status. Our cheap fuel may be the reason companies like Mercedes think we all want fire breathing gas guzzlers. Even VW has now extended their offering the Tiguan TDI until 2015. :sick:
The only positive is I can buy a heck of a lot of gas for $50k I would have spent on a new vehicle. Even at $5 per gallon I can travel 170,000 miles in my Sequoia.
More good news on the diesel front: Mercedes-Benz says it will launch a new generation of super-efficient diesel engines later this year, starting with a 2.2-liter four-cylinder "BlueEfficiency" powerplant.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/09/mercedes-to-launch-new-blueefficiency-diesel- .html
Maybe they cannot keep up with production for the EU market. We get left in the dust as usual.
This might be nit picking, but if MB can mate that to a sub 3,000# vehicle WOW !
Exxon Mobil actually does current advertisements on the TV SAT Cable stations.
Conservative estimates are 200 to 500 years supply. This is interesting in that energy was supposed to run out, ... 50-100 years ago.
When you intergrate the GTL technologies, a graphic is natural gas to ULSD, it truly dials out barrels of oil (aka gasoline) and in effect wind, solar, alternatives.
GTL ULSD is ULTRA clean and at all points in the logistic chain. Thisis unlike barrels of oil, where the sulfur content has to be removed. So for example, why the envirocons want or advocate $10 per gal gasoline are because those are the pricing points that make wind and solar etc. "alternatives" economical. 25-30 years from now all those solar projects will look like the "PET ROCK equivalent!! So look to natural gas being the new envircon PUBLIC enemy number ONE !!! Natural gas is EXTRAORDINARILY inexpensive !!!!!!!!!!!! Not a very convenient truth, when you are painting the shortage and armaggedon picture and more short term $10. per gal gasoline !! :lemon:
Chevron lists this as their current ratio :
..."We have partnered with the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation and Sasol to build a GTL plant expected to convert 325 million cubic feet of natural gas per day into 33,000 barrels of liquids—principally synthetic diesel. When completed, the plant is expected to supply diesel fuel for cars and trucks in Europe and elsewhere. The plant is expected to begin production in 2013."...
link title
33,000 barrels of ULSD is 1.386 M gals.
4WD, powered by an efficient 2.8 liter turbo-diesel engine, which generates high torque, Chevrolet Colorado Rally is perfect for the needs in the off road roads/tracks
As we quickly become just another country behind China and India, we will be left out more and more. The USA is an insignificant player in the Global marketplace.
PS
We bailed out those losers at GM and this is the thanks we get.
I believe last year (our worst US market auto sales of 10.5 M) China alone sold 14+ M passenger vehicles. !!!
So it's really not that viable in the immediate future. Biodiesel (B100) just requires some microbes and plant material. Well, we have huge amounts of that lying around and likely always will.
So for example, while solar and wind are/can be ONE viable alternative, it is along the lines (depending on their peak or shall I say lack of peak ness) of OFF peak most of the time (5 to max 10% efficient and I am an optimist!! ).
Another example is in CA envirocon nivana, the electric utility can BARELY keep up with demand !! What do you think will happen when they add a electrical charger unit for one let alone one electric car let alone a "fleet" of (say 6) electric cars?. Yet every other year we lose the contents of a normal sized refrigerator freezer, which the utility is liable for (normally app $500). YET it is impossible to put stuff like that on a solar panel back up circuit !?
Japan, at some point in the future has to replace the electrical production from the nuclear plant that has gone off line. I have heard liberal news media say the plant fulfills 10% of that nations demand. How many windmills and solar panels do you think it will now take to be at par let alone allow for growth? The problem is literally STAGGERING.
I really like the idea of using garbage for fuel---now that is creative thinking.
re: Renewable natural gas--- that's called "biogas"--it's not the stuff offshore.
and get those alternatives from multiple sources: GTL, conventional oil,
bio diesel, bio diesel blends from B5 to B100, BD from algae, process waste, recycled and sewer waste, etc, etc.
So what really everyone is implying is there is another 100% magic bullet that is not from,...barrels of oil, aka gasoline.
So for example, we have a solor panel manufacturing plant plant YOU all put here. (gov put $555 M to put the plant not far from here) Do you think it is a tad ironic that the solar panel manufacturing plant does not get or supply any appreciable % of energy for its own needs from...solar panels?????
lSolyndra
Yeah I do regard diesel as a transitional type of fuel/vehicle that might serve me until something even more efficient comes along.
Diesel cars strike me as both a "sideways" and an vertical move, but not a dramatic one.
It's possible for instance that diesel cars will suffer the same fate as seems to be befalling hybrids----the gas-only competition has just about caught up to them.
Every time someone counts out the gasoline powered piston engine, it comes to its knees, shakes itself off, and comes back punching.
So I dunno.....but for right now in 2011, a 50 mpg diesel sport wagon looks mighty attractive to me.
I do not and never have counted the gasoline engine out. It is the natural consequence of flawed (envirocon's) arguments.
But yes, a 50 mpg diesel works well in reality (relatively). That very same product in a gasser posts 27.5 mpg. That diesel posts a min of 69% better mpg. :shades: But then on the other hand, what do envircons really care? :sick: Overwhelmingly, WE have chosen gassers (over 95%) that burn much more (than diesel/biodiesel).
There ARE such people actually, especially farmers. Every farmer's market you see is a good example.
Environmentalism is going to be big business. You can already see the big boys jumping in, although often in the worst possible way (e.g. ethanol, which is worthless). And China is going into the green industry in a huge way--and I guess we could call the Chinese government "convservative" -- LOL!
But I think the current administration will eventually cut off ethanol subsidy, once they figure out how to do it gracefully (not easy).
so either the USA will have to jump start its research on green technology, or we'll be buying it at high retail from Asia in ten years.
We already are. Most solar, batteries, Wind generators, electric motors are being built in China. Much of the R&D paid by US the tax payers and the manufacturing sent to China.
I think of Envirocon as a person that uses the environment to cover a scam or Con. Think Al Gore.
Most of the time being conservative is best for the environment. Waste not, want not.
How was Al Gore a "scam", though? I mean, I KNOW he didn't practice what he was preaching (I am shocked....SHOCKED...that a politician would do this! :surprise: ) however, his science was essentially correct (minus the drama I mean, which is not scientific) . Carbon is being released in huge quantities into the atmosphere (fact) and we can measure that (fact) and we know that such a release increases temperature (fact) but we aren't sure if people caused this or merely contribute to a natural cause (all still in debate) . ....I guess what I mean is that science is right whether the person stating a fact is a hypocrite or a wife-beater or a bad teacher, or whatever, and it remains correct whether someone believes the science or not.
Even people who believe the earth is flat still go around the sun once a year. :P
Given the size of the dice being rolled, you'd wanna be on the safe side here.
My motivation for buying a "greener" car is not to keep the earth from warming up, however....I'm glad that's a by-product (maybe) but my motivation is to keep my resources from being bled dry by fuel prices.
When my some-what thrifty car blows up, I'll have to buy another car ANYWAY, so why not a green diesely one?---as long as its a) fun and b) affordable.
I don't like hybrids, I'm not going to drive a Toyota Echo or a Smart car, so a diesel makes more and more sense to me.