What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

For a sub 5,000 # suv, this really sets the bar very high as it meets and or exceeds the upcoming 2012 35 mpg standard. This flies in the face of conventional wisdom about so called "fuel sucking" SUV's. Indeed it focuses the light on: why get a REAL "fuel sucking " small "economy" car? This is pretty oxymoronic.

To boot, something like this MB ML350 can loaf its way to Tahoe 7,250 ft (from sea level, 200 to 400 miles depending on where you start) @ 90 mph. AH, ...don't try this in the real world.

trdsc2

I presently own 2 diesel vehicles; a 2009 Jetta TDI Sportwagen and a 2011 BMW 335d. I enjoy driving both of them. The only time that you can hear the "diesel" sound is when they are cold
or idling. When cruising on the highway, I would not know that they are diesels. They are
quiet...I love the torque! Even with the Jetta, it can cruise up mountain passes in 6th gear
at 120km/hr and never have to down shift to maintain speed, and that fully loaded with
driver, 3 passengers and luggage. I would like to see any 2L gasoline engine do that with
only 140hp.
On the subject of turbocharging vs supercharging for diesel engines; I like the immediate boost
that turbo charging gives. I own a supercharged gasoline vehicle and the turbo charged diesels
seem to have more immediate umph when you press on the accelerator. I also like the fact
that there isn't the "whine" that comes from the supercharger. Just my 2 cents worth.

Mr_Shiftright

turbos need revs though. If you stomp on a turbo at very low RPMs, you generally don't go anywhere for a second or two. But yes, turbos do seem to wind up faster when they are "on the cam".

KCRam

Nahh, just needs the right turbocharger. My Cummins hits its hp peak at just 2900 rpm and the in-gear redline is 3200. Even at 1700 rpm (just off the torque peak), the boost is evident, and above 2000, the blower has that cool whistle going on.

This is why Cummins makes their own turbos (through their Holset subsidiary) - they're properly matched to the engine and its rev range.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host

Mr_Shiftright

Also the right gear to be in at 1700 rpm or whatever.

gagrice

Just looking at the June sales numbers and diesel vehicles are selling well for those that offer them.

21% of VW sales were diesel
46% of Audi A3 diesel
34% of Audi Q7 diesel

Mercedes has to be happy with these numbers:

Sales of Mercedes-Benz diesel models were up 128.4% for the month (1,231 versus 539) and up 188.3 % for the year (5,953 versus 2,727).

BMW does not break out the diesel sales, so not sure how they are doing. Looks like MB has retaken the Luxury sales title. I am sure they would not have done it without their diesel sales.

ruking1

I also think the DSG (automatic) used in VW diesels might an interesting, but somewhat controversial (sidebar) issue.

The DSG offers (EPA ratings anyway) near 6 speed manual MPG ratings. In the real world the 6 speed manual still demonstrated greater mpg range.

So any oem that offers a diesel and automatic combination will have to come to grips with it, and/or provide a superior offering. This can effect a delay to market for a good competitive solution.

fintail

I would love to have a new E350 Bluetec, quartz blue with P2, pano roof, and a few other goodies - but the price ends up around 60K for how I want it equipped. Maybe some little old lady will order one how I want it and just store it away for a few years :shades:

ruking1

No maybe's about it. You might want to put out the word to those kind of folks now. :shades:

fintail

I should talk to some salespeople who could encourage such a purchase, and keep me in mind when it is traded in in 3 or 4 years and the car has come down to my price range :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

Also you can't really compare diesel truck engines with diesel car engines because truck engines usually have large displacement, and "torque" is all about displacement--much of that torque comes from the size of the bores more than anything else.

ruking1

If you have cards, give 2 to each and put two between the windshield wipers of a nice looking one you might want to own, when you see it. It might sound a bit odd, with not many folks doing it, but actually that is why it works.

fintail

I should print up some "if you ever want to sell" cards. My problem is the option and color mix I want would be so rare, there will probably only be a handful of them anywhere.

Making it a wagon would be even cooler, but as of yet we don't get an E-class diesel wagon.

qbrozen

unless you have your heart set on the e350bluetec, the E320 CDIs actually aren't all that pricey. Can get a low mileage one a couple of years old for the mid 30s.

fintail

If I wanted a W211 (03-09 E-class), it would be an E63 wagon. 07 E63s are down well under 40K now, and normal cars can be had for less - but I don't want normal. I want a loaded special order diesel (which in effect doesn't exist in the 07+ cars) , or an AMG car, preferably with the 030 performance package.

qbrozen

I want a loaded special order diesel (which in effect doesn't exist in the 07+ cars)

I assume you mean as a wagon, right? Cause certainly loaded diesel sedans exist.

fintail

Premium (P2) package and pano roof are extremely rare on W211 diesels, and they usually have base wheels too. When I say loaded, I don't just mean power windows and locks, or basic gadgets. We haven't had a MB diesel wagon since the W124. I like unusual cars. My W210 E55 is a very rare option and color combo, and those factors were a big role in my purchasing it.

stever

I think it works better in person but you have to have time to kill, waiting on the owner to come out of the grocery store or wherever. Then you can start the conversation with "how do you like your car?" and their answer tells you whether you should suggest they check out a new one and sell the old one to you.

That's sort of how it went with my Subaru, although I knew the owner so hinting was easy without accosting her in a parking lot. That could weird some people out.

gagrice

I strike up conversations with people about their cars a lot. I talked for a moment with a fellow at the PO this morning with a ML 320 Bluetec. He loves the vehicle and has never gotten under 22 MPG. That fits with those posting on the EPA site. Sometimes when I get into one of those conversations I hear the person's life history. So you never know.

fintail

I've never really said more than "cool car" etc to someone, but I have had people actually follow me in the fintail to talk about it and my other cars sometimes get questions too, probably because they are always so clean.

It's hard to think about buying anything else with a nice paid off car sitting in the garage, anyway :shades:

johnvkaravitis

John V. Karavitis At this point, they've addressed all the main issues that Americans have had with cars that have diesel engines, from the cold start to the noise to the exhaust to the availability of gas stations that offer diesel fuel. My biggest concern (and one shared by many Americans today) is MPG, so I wouldn't car about dismissing a potential purchase just because it was diesel. And I agree, from everything that I've heard and read, the Jetta seems to be the way to go - an excellent vehicle with sufficient oopmh and MPG. But I think that the argument may be moot, the drive (no pun intended) nowadays is toward electirc and hybrid cars. The Nissan Leaf is going to cost, what, $15K, whereas the Chevy Volt is still overpriced at $40K, so, again, America has its lunch handed to it by the Japanese. It makes me wonder what we'd be talking about if the turbine engine hadn't been scuttled way back when, since turbine engines will burn ANYTHING. John V. Karavitis

gagrice

First the Nissan Leaf After the $7500 tax credit is $26k+$2000 for charger. As a commuter it will be a decent choice. SDG&E has just come out with a midnight to 5AM rate that is just a few cents more than their Tier one rate. If you carefully time your charging it will be less than driving a Prius or Jetta TDI. If you have to charge your Leaf or Volt during the day you will be saving very little and paying premium for the vehicle to start with. It is still a very limited vehicle. If you can afford a commuter only car I say go for it. For the rest of US the choices of diesel are catching the hybrids. I cannot believe any hybrid will offer the driving pleasure of the modern diesel vehicles. The current diesel SUVs will blow the socks off any hybrid SUV. I cannot imagine an RX450h coming even close to handling like the BMW X5 or the VW Touareg TDI.

http://www.sdge.com/environment/cleantransportation/evRates.shtml

qbrozen

Ah. Well, I wouldn't even know those options if I saw them, so I'm no help there.

ruking1

It is still amazing to me that both oems and electrical providers literally HIDE what should be a very easy comparison cost per mile driven and equivalent mpg. I tried to research it several times and all I pretty much wound up doing was sifting through tons of mostly irrelavent data. The best I could get for one calculation was the equivalent of 32/35 mpg.

In the north (Ca) electrical and gas rates are tiered and there is no provision for different peak ratings or draw except for larger accounts and up front fees to convert. Another is it is impossible to get an off line/grid solar recharging station even as the city has been featured in Bank of America commercials for doing solar projects on public school lands. As you would expect a load of permits are required for even on line/grid installation. Even when you can, the cost is prohibitive. So that "CHEAP" $2,000 charger can go NORTH a lot and very very quickly. Keep in mind also that this is not a universal charger. If you get on the plug in electric bandwagon, you will need a oem specific charger, aka more fees, more chargers, more permits, etc .... Right now that $2k @ current prices and 48-50 mpg will buy 26,000 miles of commuting, which is app 2 years of commuting.

gagrice

San Diego just recently started offering a night rate. Though it is higher than the average day rate for the rest of the USA. I read 11 cents per KWH being the average with 5 cent over night. So our super special 14.5 cent midnight rate plus taxes is not so great. Taxes average another 3 cents per KWH.

cdnpinhead

It makes me wonder what we'd be talking about if the turbine engine hadn't been scuttled way back when. . .

Turbine engines make a lot of power in a small package, but there's no way they have competitive fuel mileage. It's necessary to compress and blow a lot of air through the engine just to keep it cool enough to not melt. The only way to come even close to being competitive is to add a recuperator to harvest some of the exhaust heat that would have otherwise been shot down the exhaust pipe, and those are neither cheap nor compact.

There's a reason there are very few (I can only think of one--the M1A1 Abrahams tank) land vehicles driven by turbine engines. Unless you're willing to pay for the exotic materials it takes to endure the temperatures involved and take the fuel mileage hit, they lose every time.

I build these things for a living.

ruking1

Baseline to the north is .12233 cents Kwh
101-130% of baseline is .13907 cents Kwh

Taxes where calculated off the bill @ .076398

So really the Kwh costs are really .1316757 cents Kwh and .1496946 Kwh.

It is really not hard to deduce why the franchisor and franchisee do not want anyone to go "OFF LINE"

CA also has THE highest per gal taxation for diesel of the US @ 85.2 cents per gal. AS OF May 2011

If it were not for this bias, the price difference is only app 16 cents higher for diesel. So for example on like 2003 MY Jetta's 46.5 mpg/27.5mpg = .0675268 cents, .1185454 cents per mile driven. PUG is app 76% more than diesel per mile driven. (taxes removed to show baseline)

So when you do the calculation taxation per mile driven @ 85.2 cents/46.5mpg vs 68.9/27.5 mpg the numbers come out more like
.0183225/.0250545 cents per mile driven taxation. respectively. This shows that gassers (like models) are taxed 37% more.

So as a ULSD consumer, I wish fuel taxation was FAR lower.

fintail

You probably won't see them. I've seen exactly one W211 diesel pano in the flesh. I like unusual cars, and MB didn't offer that model in many diverse packages. But the new car appears to be better in that regard - just expensive.

bpeebles

I like that you are a "numbers guy"

I also have a 2003 MY TDI Jetta. My spreadsheet over 130,000+ miles shows slightly higher numbers than yours.

As of today's fillup at 130744 miles the overall average numbers are
Average MPG= 52
Average cost/mile = $0.05/mile

On highway trips, I get more like 55-60 MPG.

I am leaving tomorrow morning to drive from Vermont to Prince Edward Island Canada. I know I can do the ~700 miles on a single tank.
... I am looking forward to see what numbers I realize when I get back to VT.

ruking1

I actually pulled the numbers from fuel.gov. My own personal numbers range between 48-52 mpg, with a range of 44 to 62 mpg. If I had to select one number, it is 50 mpg.

@ 75 mph with bursts of 80-85 mph, it will normally post 59 mpg. Normally I am just fine with 48 mpg. :shades:

stever

That's cheap. My Quest is running 12 cents a mile for gas over the last 156,000 miles.

I don't track costs per tank, but figuring $2.50 a gallon overall, I've spent $18,157 on gas the last twelve years. That's kind of a scary number.

Overall TCO is running about .32 cents a mile (including insurance, tags, maintenance and depreciation).

The Outback is running .11 a mile for gas and about .35 cents a mile overall (not up to date on all the TCO costs for it).

gagrice

I am wondering how VW got higher EPA numbers for the upcoming Passat TDI? I sure would like to try the Passat in a wagon. I have not completely blocked the Sportswagen TDI from my list. I wish it had just a bit more ground clearance. I know one of the posters here found a way to raise the vehicle by about an inch. I just wonder if the suspension is tough enough for our 3rd World roads in So CA. :sick:

gagrice

Depending on what depreciation ends up costing my insurance is usually the highest cost per month. If money was worth more than half a percent in the bank I could count that as loss. Fuel over a year rarely exceeds $2000 for all 3 vehicles. Insurance on 3 vehicles is at least $2500. The Sequoia only has 1050 miles this year. The Nisson Frontier 3100 miles and the Lexus has sat in the garage except the month it was loaned to a preacher friend. I think he put close to 2000 miles on it. So the insurance companies are the big winners. And the oil companies get all the flack.

Probably no good reason to buy a diesel other than just want one and maybe we will start taking long trips. Then again who knows.

stever

It's running about $900 a year here for two cars. A bit higher than Idaho was. Should just get rid of the Outback - driven it once since March I think. Sounds like you have too many in your garage too.

Did I mention that I'm down to two gas cars and one gas vacuum thing? Got rid of the old gas mower, snowblower and chainsaw a couple of days ago.

Guess that's another reason why diesel doesn't appeal to me. Rather have an EV if I'm going to try to get over 50 mpg.

And hopefully my next house will be all electric again. Not too happy with the gas stove and really just don't like combustion appliances in my house. At least if the car catches on fire, the garage is sufficiently detached that shouldn't be an issue.

And don't tell me diesel doesn't burn - had some boozy hillbilly pour a half gallon on my campfire back in the 70s to "help" me get it started. I was into one match fires back in those days, but he was turkey hunting and was well armed as well as well lubed. :shades:

(the fire did catch...)

larsb

Gary says, "I am wondering how VW got higher EPA numbers for the upcoming Passat TDI?"

Good point, Gary.

Looking at a "Compare Side-By-Side" at fueleconomy.gov website, the 2012 Passat TDI bests the 2011 Jetta TDI by 1 mpg overall in each category.

Nice trick.....larger car, same engine size, but they squeaked one more MPG out of it......those tricky Germans !!!

Wondering how they did that myself..... :shades:

shipo

It's very simple really; the Jetta and Golf require a DPF (which causes significant restriction in the exhaust and requires raw fuel for its "regeneration" phase), the Passat uses a Urea catalyst.

FWIW, the new Mazda SkyActiv-D engine will meet all current and future emmission standards without the use of Urea or a DPF; not too shabby.

larsb

Gotcha.....thanks for the info....

ruking1

This might be over kill because you've hinted at it already, (larger car) but the feat is all the more impressive given the 2012 is from 199 to 366#'s heavier ( 3360 #'s, 2994 #'s, 3161#'s). Normally the weight is (-/+ 1) mpg per 100#'s. I have yet to see the gearing statistics, but can't help but think different gearing (higher in some lower in others) plays its (smaller) part also.

I have also read the Passat is up to 6,000 cheaper than similar (European) Passat diesels.

ruking1

Yes for business and or commute purposes the insurance numbers can actually be weighted heavier for lower cost.

I normally ask the insurance company BEFORE a purchase, a number of questions: 1. In the category I am considering, WHICH cars have the lowest insurance costs 2. of these (the top 5 I am considering) what are the actual insurance costs.

They usually express puzzlement, as if I am the first person to ever ask this question ??? Over the years I have asked it for 5 category purchases.

ruking1

If I did my math correctly you are currently paying 2.60 per gal ULSD, or is that cummulatively?

Corner store pricing is 4.09 today.

Mr_Shiftright

And besides all that, your EV is probably coal-powered in most parts of the country, so many people have no real basis to "feel good" about their EV.

ruking1

Around here, they have the concept of BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) pretty well synonymous with "GREEN". What is never really advertised is how much does the electricity cost at commercial or even small user rates. I would swag it is utterly STAGGERING. Perhaps a better question would be what would it take to put the BART system on passive solar panels? I mean it isn't like we do not have solar panel manufacturing, Solyndra
PO comes to visit

It would make a good object lesson !! (fantasy is more like it) aka domestic S/P manufacturer supports energy self sufficiency, at low cost, etc, etc.

stever

There's something to be said for concentrating your dirty energy production so you can use economy of scale to be able to afford the scrubbers and whatnot. ICE cars just spread it around, and dilution isn't the solution to pollution. :shades:

And you can pay extra to buy "green" electricity that was made with natural gas or hydro or renewable sources.

ruking1

Ah staggering x 2?

Mr_Shiftright

So you think that someone who has just bought an EV to save gas is going to *volunteer* to pay more ( a lot more) for "clean" electricity? Don't hold your breath. :P

True, in places like Texas, most power plants are driven by natural gas, but in other areas of the country, it's going to be coal and it's going to be expensive.

So EV depends a great deal on where you live, as to whether it makes any sense.

As for "concentrating dirty energy production" isn't that just a polite way of saying "in your back yard and not in mine?"

Or am I being too cynical here?

stever

The only green connection with diesels I can see are the Willy Nelson types who use recycled french fry oil. Better mpg, but most owners are still burning oil.

I'm sure a lot of people would buy SUNPWR vanity plates for their Volts to advertise the fact that they are buying green power and not adding extra carbon to the air.

ruking1

The underlying assumption of 100% NON oil transportation sources is a pure fantasy. Diesel is a direct consequence of RUG to PUG production, Even folks that know this have issues factoring this in. Indeed oil products are literally part and parcel of literally EVERYTHING about societies. Be that as it may, we (collectively) really have a hard time visualizing going to manufacturable bio diesel (algae and many others for example) of which normal diesel is a portal.

Mr_Shiftright

I always thought oil was a major factor in nitrogen production for fertilizers, but apparently natural gas is now the source for hydrogen in this ammonia process, not oil as in the past.

Calling an EV "sun powered" is pretty slack, unless you want to claim that the sun grew the ancient plants that eventually became the coal that is now burning to charge up your EV---I'd buy that, I guess. :P

Really, "nuke-powered", "coal powered" or "natural gas powered" would be much more accurate, and even true.

Now, "algae-powered"----THAT'S sexy! :shades:

gagrice

Now, "algae-powered"----THAT'S sexy!

Now I am with you on that. The Feds need to mandate 10% algae based biodiesel for all diesel sold.

ruking1

Not that I knowing eat a lot of algae, (yes I have been to survival school and know the drill) but algae is an extremely nutrient rich food source. So that would be ANOTHER great reason: food cultivation. So... want fries with that?