What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

The scam was the intentional lies in the movie that made him $millions. And his carbon credit scam. If you truly believed that your carbon footprint was causing the earth to warm would you buy a huge mansion on the ocean that generates as much CO2 as a small town. Or would you buy a Gulf Stream jet that spews CO2 by the ton each flight. That to me is a con artist of the highest level.

I look at buying a more economical car from a conservative saving my money as you do. I don't like hybrids and I like a certain level of comfort and handling. Diesel at this time offers the most bang for the buck all things considered. I also have considered the Sportswagen TDI for that great mileage on trips. I will have to take one out for a test drive again. I am disappointed in Mercedes for denying US their great 4 cylinder diesel. My best guess is they do not think Americans are serious about good mileage or conserving on oil. They could be right. I don't see much difference on our highways with the high priced gas.

ruking1

Just really goes to show you that one does not have to believe in the sun and the earth, for them both to do it's thing !!!!??? It does it, regardless. Solar flares have probably way more to do with what is happening on the earth than the more than dwarfed mitigated diesel emissions, and certainly much more prevalent gasoline emissions (US anyway).

gagrice

When diesels are offered they sell:

Sales of Mercedes-Benz diesel models were up 108.5% for the month (1,147 versus 550) and up 115.8% for the year (4,722 versus 2,188).

MB May Sales

HERNDON, Va. (June 1, 2011) — Volkswagen of America, Inc. today reported 30,100 units sold in May 2011, a 27.9% increase over prior year sales and the company’s best sales month since August 2003. Year-to-date sales are up 19.7%. Volkswagen’s high-mileage, clean diesel TDI models accounted for more than 22% of all May sales.

Audi sets record for best May U.S. sales; third-best month in brand’s history

• Sales of Audi TDI clean diesel vehicles continue to far outpace initial predictions

Consumers continued to show preferences for the brand’s clean diesel technology. Sales of the fuel-efficient A3 models increased 33.9% year-over-year to 664 vehicles sold, with the Audi A3 TDI clean diesel model accounting for 55% of the sales mix in the lineup. Demand for the popular Audi Q7 full-size luxury sport-utility vehicle remained strong with a sales increase of 26.9% year-over-year, with the Audi Q7 TDI clean diesel model accounting for 40% of the sales mix.

Audi Sales

We are making progress. If one of them would build and sell a diesel in the US I could not resist.

ruking1

This is far from being a one month or even 1 year fluke. Starting with the VW Jetta 2009 so called (DPF) "clean diesel" sales (in 2009) were fully 25% (sidebar: Jetta's were the majority of TDI sales for VW that year, Touraeg was the only other VW TDI). This was also smack dab in the middle of the LOWEST year to year new car sales in recent record (10.5 M). When sales were just starting to hit 9.5 M some pundits were pointing to a virtual catastrophy. Incidently they were were 1 to 2k shy of the IRS quota of 60,000 units for a clean diesel tax credit.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I think the sober approach is to presume that carbon emissions won't help WHATEVER is causing a warming trend. It would be crazy to just ignore it.

Mother Nature has a way of "tidying up" and it isn't pretty.

I rather look forward to how the human imagination comes up with new ideas in the face of crisis.

Just look at how efficient the IC engine has become in the last 40 years!

I don't see any problem in making money by speculating in disaster -- the futures market does this all the time--it's a fear-driven market.

gagrice

Plants and trees LOVE carbon emissions. And with the extra rain we are getting around the World mo betta crops.

ruking1

Indeed one of the neatest things about biodiesel "manufacture" is you can super charge the algae with C02 emissions, aka increased C02 consumption !!!! ????, which hasten production of bio diesel and OXYGEN (among other products and byproducts) !!!!!!! What about a C02 enriched environment is not for algae to like???????

I am starting to think a lot of envirocons really do not understand this at its most BASIC level or if they do, they do not want others to know it or get out, as it takes the wind (C02) out of the con. This stuff has been taught in middle school to basic high school biology for literally generations. It is far from being new.

Mr_Shiftright

Well sure, in the upcoming shifts in climate we will experience, there will be winners and losers. Some areas of the world might even benefit from it.

Probably the scariest part of GW is all the unknowns. The earth, being a complex inter-connected system, is a concept most Americans just don't grasp. They look out the window and say "hey weather's fine...no problem".

I was watching some show about making methane gas from garbage dumps---very sophisticated stuff---we aren't talking hippie tech here...I just thought it was the neatest thing---wow, heating my house with a pipe that comes from a garbage dump.

I would certainly support any local biodiesel enterprise in my area.

ruking1

Climate has shifted since before man even hit the earth, there has always been winners and losers. The dinosaurs probably thought they would rule forever. Indeed current thought from those that study the so called fossilized records estimate that 98% of ALL species that have ever lived become EXTINCT.

gagrice

Our local landfill has huge plastic sheets over the garbage and pipes coming out. They run generators with the methane. I think that technology has been around a good while. My favorite example is Pacific Biodiesel in Maui. They started refining old cooking oil into biodiesel at least 10 years ago. Then set up plants in Oregon for Kettle Chips and others. I think it works best on a grass roots small scale. You get the Feds involved and you end up with a mess like we are seeing with ethanol. Pure corporate welfare.

stever

They do that at the Boise dump too.

Since gasoline prices have fallen in my town, the gas/diesel price differential at one station is now 20 cents. $3.79 for unleaded, $3.99 for diesel.

Mr_Shiftright

I think Obama is very interested in shutting down the ethanol scam as soon as he can figure out how to do it deftly. All indicators suggest that ethanol subsidy is on the chopping block and the powers that be have been so instructed to figure out how to do it. And good riddance, too!

gagrice

I agree it is good riddance. The bad side effect will be the hundreds of jobs lost and small towns will be devastated when they shut down the stills. No way they can keep going without subsidies. Same thing happened in the early 1980s. I believe it was 98 stills were abandoned. Left to rust away. And same as this time they were ALL built with loan guarantees from you and me. It was a no lose situation for the companies building the stills and operating them. Probably fat bonuses etc to the upper echelon managers. Criminal corporate welfare is all these alternative energy scams are.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh I don't know. As someone said, this was all corporate welfare and BiG AG is the benefactor. Small farmers can go back to what they were growing hopefully.

Here again, we see the phenomenon of "everything is connected to everything else" that keeps coming back to haunt us, time and time again.

gagrice

Unfortunately most of the small farmers sold their land and took jobs in town. It is doubtful they will ever be able to farm again. That to me was the shame of the late 1970s was watching the price of land skyrocket as the little farmers sold out to the big farmers. Much of it had to do with modernization. A farmer with 200 acres used to be self sufficient. Then as the price of farm equipment went crazy they could no longer compete. A few still hang on. I guess that is progress. I cannot believe the small farm demise was not brought on by government intervention. When I tried it, I soon learned that all those farm subsidies were not for the little guy.

That and the price of diesel just about killed us. Farming was a very expensive lesson for me. Took me about 30 years to financially get back to where I was in 1977 when I bought the farm. My partner in the farm stuck around doing small contract work and is still struggling.

ruking1

Government intervention was indeed the major tool in hastening the demise of the already small minority group of small farmers (not too long ago app 2 M of the population/307 M=.0065146). They didn't need the US calvary and all the necessary extermination tools (logistics really) of exterminations gone by . They just use debt instruments.

gagrice

They just use debt instruments.

That is exactly what I ran into. I still remember going into the bank for a loan to plant my crops. This was the common way in farm communities. The banker told me in plain English it just won't fly. You borrow at 21% interest and in a good year you are lucky to make 10% on investment. High interest rates killed many businesses in the last great depression of the late 1970s. Our local hardware store in Long Prairie MN was one of them. The owner sold the building and put the money in treasuries paying 17%. He said there was no way he could make that kind of money selling hardware. Several people lost jobs and that building was eventually torn down by the new owner. Not sure what got built there. I left when I got my old job back in Alaska.

Mr_Shiftright

This is why we should all support efforts at artisanal farming in our local areas, even if their products cost more.

gagrice

Get to know those that grow fruits and vegetables in your area. One fruit I like are figs. Rarely see them in the store. I stopped by a neighbors with a loaded fig tree last year. He said take all you want. We will exchange fruit again this year. This is easier to accomplish in the suburbs than the city where land is so expensive. We are fortunate in CA where something is growing and producing year round.

ruking1

I say this as perhaps an expressiion of inspiration of what a generation of vision, guts,hard work and constant education can produce. As a boy, I watched as literally backwater wine growing regions (Napa Valley, Sonoma, etc) known for producing "rot gut" literally "scaped their paths " to world premium producers of wine that even the 2 dollar bottles rivals in taste what the French producers have been known for and for a longer period of time.

Later for a 4 year period, I traveled (ULSD) down to Santa Barbara (and back) app once a month and it was each and every time an utter thrill to see, as far as the eyes can see rolling hills in wine GRAPES. This is not even to mention going through the middle of agriculture farm lands that literally helps to feed the world.

alltorque

I know it's only a small step but some of my local buses, (in Lincoln, U.K.), are now running on bio-methane, (and diesel). This is a brilliant initiative for such a small city - pop circa 86000, but it's been here since pre-Roman times, (the city, not the buses ) - and I'm sure it will prove to be one of the ways forward. Beats the cr*p out of bio-ethanol. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Methane Buses

ruking1

Indeed that is where the thinking needs to be. How to turn C--p into a commercially viable product.

Mr_Shiftright

Well great. The Romans built your roads and you built the buses to run on them. Teamwork! :P

fdd

my next car will be a jetta sportwagon tdi.

ruking1

What led you to that decision?

stever

The most wanted fuel sipper?

2011 Volkswagen Jetta TDI

Inside Line 2011 Readers' Most Wanted Awards

ruking1

I have also seen the EPA mpg has gone from (2009) 40 mpg to 42 mpg.

Sidebar: gearing is more "geared" toward highway cruising. (higher gearing) both DSG and 6 speed manual.

texases

I hadn't realized the new Passat TDI requires urea, to be refilled every 10k or so. That, combined with the few diesel stations in my are, would keep me from getting one.

gagrice

If VW is smart they will include that with all service for the first 50,000 miles like BMW. Though urea is cheap when you get it from a truck stop. Not sure on the TDI. The MB uses about 7 gallons every 16,000 miles. I would expect the cost to be $2 to $4 per gallon.

fintail

I just watched the Motorweek test of that car. Looks nice and not a bad deal - Camcord money, but no xenons even in top spec? I wonder what else has been decontented.

texases

$4/gallon at a truck stop, but big money at MB dealers. Wonder what VW will do....

texases

I just saw the same Motorweek...wish they had given more info on the VR6, that'd be the engine I'd consider, not that I'm actually looking...

fintail

Me neither...and I'd actually buy the diesel if I wanted some VW drama.

ruking1

The Passat TDI is listed as a 2.0 L 4 cylinder TDI, the same that runs the Jetta, aka no urea set up. 2012 VW Passat

The real news (boring in some ways) is that the 2.0 L TDI has been shown to be a pretty bullet proof motor. The Passat is made in America for the American market. It is also bigger and probably as a consequence app 330 #'s heavier than the 2011 Jetta TDI. Americans want cheaper prices. Of course it is app -8,000 less than past Passats so expect some "decontenting." The EPA highway is 43 mpg. This is up from 40 mpg on the 2009 Jetta TDI.

texases

nope, the Passat, while it does use the 2l TDI, does need urea.

ruking1

I stand corrected. It is on the VW web site 2012 Passat. Most other references for some reason, leaves that out. It (urea recharge) is also included in the so called care free maintenance) 3 years or 36,000 miles.

shipo

...in the Passat is that using this technology in place of the DPF used on the Jetta and Golf, the Passat is able to return better fuel economy than either of the two smaller cars. Errr, at least when it comes to the EPA test.

texases

Like i said, I was surprised, thought urea use was more an engine size, rather than car size, thing. Obviously I was wrong!

ruking1

It has me a bit curious as to the real world effects on mpg. As Shipo stated, it (urea injection system) seems to aid on the EPA testing mpg (in addition to a higher BIN standard). As I have previously noted, mpg has gone from 40 mpg to 43 or 3 mpg better. Now I know that gearing and weight and both does/do play their part/s.

So for example, I know that on a 40 mpg rating (2009 Jetta TDI and that MY is also 3360#'s or so ) I can easily get a range of 42/44 highway. All I need do is keep it under 95 mph. :shades: Purely as a SWAG, I would project the Passat to easily return 45 mpg (same conditions) !! ??

Being as how the 2012 35 mpg standard kicks in, that is app 23% to 29% better !!!! I think that will be a pretty high bar for most other oems to overcome for a so called main line ubiquitous 4 door sedan (segment).

gagrice

According to VW, they have not brought the Tiguan with that engine because it would not pass with the non urea emissions crappola. So maybe with the new emissions used in the Passat they can offer the Tiguan TDI in the USA. It has been sold in the UK for several years already. By the time the 3 year free urea service is up every truck stop in America will be selling urea cheap by the gallon. At the current price of $4 per gallon, it will be less than 2/10ths of a cent per mile for urea. In the Passat getting 43 MPG you get about a 25% increase in mileage over the competition gassers. Plus the big thing is the added torque and range of 795 miles. I could drive from San Diego to Bangor Maine and only have to stop for diesel 4 times.

elias

i understand that urea is preferable to dpf/regen for power & torque & mpg -
allows tuning/design of a more efficient & stronger engine.

how can urea/more-power/more-mpg possibly be bad?

As a diesel buyer (4 so far), DPF has been a factor preventing me from wanting a post-2006 diesel.
The idea of intentionally burning fuel solely for the DPF/regen, and raising exhaust temps to smelting temperatures - no thank you.

Urea is what might get me in the seat of a modern diesel..
43 mpg in a passat TDI is great..
(05 passat TDI was a fuel-pig at a lousy 37 mpg tank after tank!)

texases

"how can urea/more-power/more-mpg possibly be bad? "

Well, inconvenient, and an added cost, not 'bad'. MB owners have complained about excessive charges, doubt it will apply to VW.

elias

gagrice, the manual-shift passat will probably get >40 mpg in all-around driving too, so the diesel advantage cost-per-mile is closer to 40%.

Another diesel engine advantage is that is costs about 1/2 (1/3?) as much per ft-lb! :shades: :shades: :shades:

shipo

Unless I'm missing something, it seems that the new Mazda SkyActiv-D 2.0 liter diesel engine will be able to meet pollution limits and do it without any urea or a DPF.

While I much prefer VWs over Mazdas, if I have to choose between a 2013 VW MK7 Golf TDI and a 2013 Mazda3 5-Door with the SkyActiv-D, yikes, that will be some difficult decision to make.

gagrice

Mazda is claiming some real breakthroughs in their diesel technology. Will it pass emissions and be sold in the USA. Or will it be another flop like Honda and their great diesel? I sure would look hard at a CX-7 or 9 with a diesel.

http://www.mazda.com/mazdaspirit/skyactiv/engine/skyactiv-d.html

shipo

Per this discussion:
http://www.ozmazdaclub.com/newsroom/7706-mazda-skyactiv-technology-driven.html

"Not only does SKYACTIV D technology eliminate the critical roadblocks to low compression ratio diesels, but it also does so while achieving 20 percent better fuel economy than the current diesel engine. And the story just gets better when it comes to emissions, as SKYACTIV-D is clean enough to comply with the EU Stage 6, US Tier2Bin5 and Japan’s Post New Long-Term Emission Regulations without resorting to expensive NOx treatments, which can trap these particulates and soot emissions."

I'm thinking if this engine technology turns out to only be half as good as promised, it'll find its way into the entire Mazda product line.

Another interesting SkyActiv link:
http://www.autoworld.com.my/v2/news/nb_details.asp?awReviewID=3248&awCatID=RT.AT- C.CAR.PV

ruking1

Without the numbers, which oems (like Mazda) normally prominently market HEAVILY and cover probably in exacting detail, the descriptions really hide more than they illuminate. While it does mention (DIESEL) competitors like VW (2.0 L TDI, the vaulted 20% better power rating (for the Mazda 2.2 L dual stage turbo diesel they do not make clear if it is hp or #ft) is really against Mazda's current gasser 2.0 L. (148 hp/135 # ft. EPA 25/33) or 2.5L gasser. It would appear that Mazda would hope a casual reader connects the dots that the better power rating is against VW and not the Mazda's current 2.0. gasser engine or even the 2.5 L gasser. They also seem to take extreme pains to indicate their automatic is sexy but STILL a slushbox automatic, part CVT and part dual clutch !? :lemon: So how does this convert to real numbers?

However that being said, what I think Mazda is really saying is it is making long awaited, needed, and wanted improvements to its baseline products, to which they are probably entering the American diesel market, and with a 2.2 L dual stage turbo diesel engine.

Some clues that the (small diesel) SEGMENT might be going to: are bigger turbos, sequential turbo's, supercharging and/or a combination. You can also use more powerful components on smaller diesel engines. This has been known for a very long time.

I think Gagrice has posted in passing an app 2.0 L PLUS+ small diesel. MB is advertising 369 # ft with something like 45 mpg (on a sub 3,000 # car)!!! HP ratings aside, this is absolutely HUGE. While you have to dig a lot deeper, it is based on a supercharger. While 45 mpg is absolutely excellent in our American markets, if they had gone to a turbo or twin turbo, the chances are the mpg would be a good percentage higher. The power (ft #'s) would also fall off.

My off topic reaction: I would gladly give up 5 mpg for 369# ft of torque !! (from 155 # ft- 138% MORE !!) :shades: 45 mpg exceeds the 2012 35 mpg standards by app 29%. Most folks probably don't know it yet, but torque battles are the new hp wars of old.

Mr_Shiftright

Having owned both turbo and supercharged cars of various stripes, I'm a supercharger fan for small engines, (4 cylinder, basically) and more of a turbo fan for V type large displacement engines (the engine layout allows for easier use of twin turbos).

Aside from electric cars, which can't be beat for low-end torque, the SC does a nice job for you in, say, traffic, where you can squirt in and out, or tight passing distances on two-laners.

ruking1

Yes, I would say that for decades that is where the majority of so called American "fuel efficient (gasser)" cars have been almost totally lacking, but especially in two lane passing.

I really can't say I have driven very many American supercharged cars, let alone a supercharged diesel. The Corvette ZR1 is MONSTER @ 604 # ft. The only one I have had any experiences with was a Ford Lightning? It is a F150 truck, so perhaps it can be considered an anomoly, rather than a more mainstream supercharged model.

The twin turbo BMW 335 D is a torque GIANT at 425 # ft !!! It is truly one magnificent road car. However for a normal commute handled by a 2004 Civic, I struggled with the round hole square peg ness of that aspect.

gagrice

The 2012 ML will be available this September with the next generation V6 diesel engine. It ups the ante on the current power champ BMW X5 35D. Plus gives a real boost to Mileage. At 35 MPG on the highway you can get 900 miles before being forced to land and refuel.

The ML 350 Bluetec will have a larger and more powerful turbodiesel, a 3.0-liter V6 turbodiesel. It will have 258 hp 457 lb. of torque. The larger engine still hits high in the efficiency with some 32- 35 mpg.