Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Not one source - ALL of them.
I like diesels, but these far-fetched theories simply do not help the cause.
By a group of disgruntled owners.
Anyone can "complain" about not getting EPA numbers.
But to "prove" that a carmaker "gamed" the EPA test is another fish altogether.
THAT has never been done.
I think most everyone games the test. That is fine. That is just marketing.
Beyond that, you'd have to get some sort of big wikileaks type thing going on to show that an automaker got one result in their testing but reported a higher number.
I think I've seen that technique used by others....
Larsb, Welcome to the Forum.. :shades:
It was also about that time the dealers were tacking up to $5000 over MSRP for hybrids from both Toyota and Honda. Money was flowing, credit was easy and diesels were not welcome in CA.
I do some time regret selling the Passat. Not as much as I regret selling my 1998 Suburban. From some of the issues I have read about with that model TDI, I may have avoided problems.
Childish bragging...
You are hyper-miling, and we should compare your TDI results to those of a hybrid hyper-miler as well. Apples to apples.
You've been tossing out lowball theoretical numbers for hybrids.
I think I've seen that technique used by others....
lemmer's follow up was even funnier!
You have work to do, son. :P
Lol!
In percentages, this is how Germans expressed giving "consideration" to purchase of the following types: (note: the percentages don't add up to 100%, as some consumers had more than one preference)
gasoline power 47%
Hybrid 43%
Diesel 37%
CNG 25%
EV 16%
Also of note, the new Bentley Continental GT uses an Audi gasser V-8 of 4.0L and it's putting out almost 500 ft lbs of torque (1700 to 5000 rpm range).
Ain't that the truth? I wish they would do away with the EPA estimates. Let the automaker put what they consider a reasonable mileage on the vehicle. Then they have to answer to the customer. Instead of pointing a finger at the Feds who refuse to accept responsibility for anything.
Honda has lost some recent court cases on not getting advertised mileage.
I can't see how you could ever truly develop a non-biased test to compare a Volt/ Leaf to a Cruise.
There are just too many differences between the two technologies to arrive at a reasonable across the board comparison. Sure, you can devise specific tests and compare them, but unless the buyer drives identically to the test parameters, who knows how close the test will estimate his reality?
Again, take the Volt... The claim (I think) is 30 miles before assisting the battery power with the gas engine.
Assuming that is accurate, a driver that drives 15 miles to and from work daily will see dramatically different results that what the guy driving 18 miles to and from work will see. And, we all know that manufacturers are prone to game a test if there is a benefit to them. Just look at the dispute between GM and VW on which made more cars last year.
Companies like to fudge numbers, and its extremely common.
What most articles omitted from that story was....
No attorney is allowed for representation in that court for either side.
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The lady suing was an attorney, albeit non-practicing at the time.
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Small claims courts have a higher tendency to find for the local claimant when the adversary is a large corporation. The amount usually isn't that high, though.
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Honda is appealing, and although I'm not a betting man, I'd be willing to put my $$$ on Honda winning I n the end. The lady may get a book and movie deal.
Peters opted out of the class-action lawsuit so she could try to claim a larger damage award for her 2006 Honda Civic's failure to deliver the 50 mpg that was promised.
The proposed class-action settlement would give aggrieved owners $100 to $200 each and a $1,000 credit toward the purchase of a new car. Legal fees in the class action would give trial lawyers $8.5 million, Peters said.
Don't tell me the Asian carmakers haven't learned the American way of doing business...lol!
While you may not like CR or accept their testing methodology, they do have quite a bit of back-up and supporting data to substantiate their claims, as do other testing organizations.
When one attempts to discount a reputable testing outfit without any supporting documentation, or even worse, compare their results on a "par" basis with an anonymous poster ( with zero supporting documentation) it goes beyond the absurd.
It's ignoring anything that conflicts with your predetermined preferential outcome.
All samples are not equal. Stephen Hawking's ideas on the origin of the universe are superior to mine, but my evaluation of my wife's pot roast is superior to his.
For a true analysis, such things need to be factored into the formula...">link title
I was also anecdotally on the other side (earlier than the issues talking about the 2004 Prius obviously) of the statistical power curve (wrong) after I read about the the Toyota 1985 Camry in CR, pretty close to glowing write ups. Well I literally had everything wrong with it that they didn't track and cover and then some. As the defects kept occurring and adding up, I was almost firmly convinced I was the statistical anomaly. So I was chock FULL of supporting documentation. Guess what? Outside of the CR write ups, I was NOT. Yet NO coverage from CR in any follow up write ups, other than still ok. Mine and many others were NOT. 2 subsequent class actions suits helped to cushion the 5,000 spent on repairs on a car (then worth 4,500). They did extend a few "secret warranty" for portions that I had much lesser complaints about. So the $5,000 dollars is really not accurate. They did the extra work and did not put down the bill they would have normally billed the customer for. So did I have pre determined attitudes toward all this? NO !! It was in effect "forced upon me". So yes you can bet that all samples are not equal.
Now did that predispose me AGAINST Toyota/s'? No not at all. I turned around and bought at least 5 of its products after that. The bad/good news is some years later I was comparing notes with a friend who had bought the same MY, AGAIN after reading CR writing ups and she had even worse problems than I had.
So what did the class action suits accomplish? Well one thing it let Toyota do was to continue to sell "sludge monsters" rather than correct the issue. Did CR cover this issue on the 1985? Ah no. Indeed if you look at the years after CR continued to rate the sludge monsters very well. So to me it is not a matter of whether I like or dislike their methods of testing. At the very least they dropped the ball on this MY and issue.
So do I read their literature still? Absolutely. However they have become one of many I will check when considering products, specifically in this discussion passenger vehicles.
You may be off by a decade or more.
Consumer Reports nailed a lot of the common issues I've seen here - pre-04 Honda V6 transmissions, Mazda CD4E automatics 93-97, Subaru 99-02 head gaskets, etc.
They're accurate enough that if you forget what years were affected you can just look for the black dots on those specific years.
(rinse and repeat)
That was back in my Anchorage days. Where my bud picked up a used diesel truck. You know, the one that wouldn't crank below 30 degrees.
http://yotarepair.com/Sludge_Zone.html
1985? Got a source that shows a pattern of problems? Just one doesn't count.
I've had a miserable history with LG products.... Flat screen TV, fridge, multiple phones,etc.
I refuse to even consider an LG product at this time.
However, that's an emotional response, not a fact-based statistical response.
LG remains too much of a player in the industry for all of their products to have anywhere near the failure rate I have personally experienced.
The difference between me and you is that I fully recognize my attitude on LG is emotionally based, and you appear to be continually attempting to translate your relatively isolated experiences into facts that cover whatever range of products and events you are currently discussing.
That doesn't mean you aren't sometimes correct, but that's more by Luck than by analytical application.
Edmunds is full of posts with "fanboy" attitudes, and I wouldn't be surprised to find a posting or 2 of someone raving about how good the Yugo was...
If that is what it takes for you, by all means...more power to you.
Personally, I'll stick with the facts, as best as I can ascertain them.
Of course, it's pretty common for folks to see themselves in the same boat, even when they aren't, because they experience a similar issue.
For those that have been here for several years, how many times have you seen a posting by someone identifying themselves as having a reported issue on say, a defective engine or transmission, and then realize the issue didn't apply to their equipment at all ( because they had totally different equipment)?
It's not uncommon at all.
85 Camrys? No. Not a widespread issue.
My grandfather refused to buy convertibles because he had one in the 1940s with a leaky roof. I tried to explain that they've improved, but the man had been burned once and was done.
I do wish my dad was still alive today, so I could get him a ride in a BMW 335d. The look on his face would be VISA priceless.
My first car was a 1947 Pontiac convertible. The rag top was almost completely gone. San Diego does not rain that often so I survived. Have never bought another Convertible. :shades: Or a Pontiac. It did take me 43 years to forgive Toyota for the POC Land Cruiser they sold me in 1964. The Sequoia will probably be my last Toyota. It is ok, just not what I really want. Which is a diesel SUV. The Touareg TDI is still top of the list of those sold in the USA.
Indeed there are many folks who will not buy a diesel because of what they heard/experienced about old diesels.. I say fine. It is there/your dime.
I would estimate the vast majority of new car purchases can never be rationalized based upon $$$ alone.
If they were, the auto industry would never have grown to the size it did.
Same for things like cellphones.
My worst mileage (as I recall) was like 44 mpg with app 300 miles of stop and go traffic in downtown Las Vegas with the AC blasting 4 folks in the car, in 104 degrees ambient.
Here is some monthly idea of the ranges of mpg.
You need to look for a hypermiling thread. Now a hypermiling competition is useless to me because i do not hyper mile. It would be interesting in the context of what the vehicle is capable of. The other would be how I could apply those techniques to more normal driving.
Even a blind man could see the folks getting anywhere in the upper 50s to 60 plus mpg are hyper miling...