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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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I'm just picking gassers that compete with the TDI on price and size. If I had picked a Prius, it would operate at a lower cost per mile than a TDI.
But sure, we could match a TDI with a Ford gasser dually pickup and you'd do very well in that matchup. :P
Power wise the nearest match up is the Camry Hybrid. MPG wise, the 2009 TDI trumps the Camry Hybrid.
Prius is really only competitive in the mpg metric. If the mpg metric was as important as the regulators say it is, they would let in the 50 to 75 mpg Euro diesels. They do not for obvious reasons. And the system knows the real utility of the Prius is to inflate the fleet mpg while Toyota sells TONS of PU trucks that get like 15 mpg and less.
* you can get 10mpg more in a diesel than a hybrid
* all while not hyper-miling
* late 70s Hondas were crap
* pretty much all Toyota I-4s had sludge
* even the ones that didn't
It's quite a stretch!
True, many with Subaru boxer engines (because they fit).
VW owners seem to be love/hate. They love 'em until they get bit by a bad one.
I said very clearly someone can lend me a Prius to do the point a to point b commute and post real world figures. I do not know what I would actually get as I have not run a Prius in that loop. But given what I have gotten in Civic and TDI yes, Prius mpg would probably be higher than average Prius driver. If on the open road yes lower mpg.
Again projecting as I would run the Prius similarly (within ITS parameters)
LOL I don't see you buying a late 70's Honda Accord USED car.
Sludge in 1985 Toyota Camry previously and in tedious detail already discussed.
So yes you continue to be wrong.
Comparing apples to apples, the closest diesel would be the Passat TDI.
CR tested them side-by-side, and the hybrid did 1 mpg better overall on fuel that is also cheaper. Plus it performed substantially better in acceleration tests.
The diesel got its tail kicked, basically.
Nah, they seem to just rebuild them.
I think also one distinction that is overlooked Japanese cars are considered a lot by their owners much like appliances.
There are a lot of VW owners that know they can be R/R'd rebuilt, etc.
Shifty calling a MINI more reliable that just about anything else is news to me too.
Regular popped twenty cents this morning to $3.79. Drove by a couple of stations but no one had diesel prices posted. It was $3.99 last I looked. Getting close to parity again, especially if you do premium to diesel right now.
Motor wise it is the same.
Well that is not what was reported 39.6 vs 36.6 mpg, 2009 TDI vs 2009 Camry on www.fueleconomy.gov. Carmy Hybrid is also thousands more.
That *IS* a projection - you have projected poor mileage on a hybrid and comparing to your hyper-miling results in a TDI, all while denying you're hypermiling.
We (myself and others) have offered up several sources and you choose to ignore them all, so I guess in your own mind you must be right no matter what.
I don't mind at all that you think I'm wrong, in fact I take that as a compliment. :P
But okay, let's say that America could get a 50 mpg diesel car, that can achieve that at highway speeds, no matter who is driving it.
that still doesn't give the TDI much of a cost per mile advantage over a hybrid.
What's wrong with comparing a MINI gasser to a TDI--I'm not seeing the problem.
Remember we are talking about what the new car buyer today sees when he shops and uses EPA numbers for his data.
My point is that he sees no real advantage is costs to buying a small diesel car, and therefore, diesel cars do not increase market share in the USA.
Even Europeans want gas cars more than diesels, if we believe recent surveys in Germany.
And it lands at these forums and it's a post by you. :shades:
Not exactly a common issue it would seem, certainly not like the real "gel" issue. Then again, there's only a couple of hits for "1989 Plymouth voyager head gasket" and I had three of those repairs.
On another topic (the topic in fact), I bet that hybrid sales outpace diesel sales at least 2 or 3 to one as gas pushes toward $5 a gallon.
It also takes about 3 days to reach 60mph.
But 0-60 doesn't matter.
Both the Civic and the Jetta TDI have very good to excellent resale value.
That, and the fact that it is claimed to return the equivalent of 37.3 mpg (U.S.) on the combined European consumption cycle. Talk about having your cake and eating it, too.
To me the name implies it would cost $62k or more since the gasser 550 model does, and this seems to have more sport equipment built in.
Figure mid 60s and up. Edit: autoblog est is $71k to start.
12,000 miles at 44 mpg = 272 gallons at $4.39 per gallon = $1197
12,000 miles at 28mpg = 429 gallons at $1.89 per gallon = $810
That's what a CNG Civic costs you. The prices are from a station near me, in Los Angeles. No batteries to deal with, either, which are a huge mess by themselves.
Nothing is cheaper, cleaner, or uses less foreign oil and resources than CNG. It's clear by now that the public won't accept Diesel vehicles in large numbers. The alternative option, then, is to stop taking all of this effort that is going towards Diesel vehicles and move it towards CNG.
Soooooo, compared to a 35 mpg MINI, it's the same fractional teensy cost per mile advantage, and the big disadvantage of having to hunt for a CNG station.
You "win" but not by much. :P
That's still a concern with potential diesel buyers. It's a lot more common now, but many people think you can only find the green handled pumps at the truck stops out on the Interstate.
My favorite local station doesn't carry it though.
Can't beat gas for the well developed infrastructure.
BAD DIESEL, BAD CNG !!
I see stations, but you do have less selection than gas, so you can't shop around as much.
The extra range offsets that somewhat. Just plan ahead, and fill if you're under half tank when you see cheap diesel.
http://www.altfuelprices.com/stations/CNG/California/San-Diego/
I just noticed something else. The new ML350 Bluetec has 455 ft lbs of torque and the GL350 Bluetec is still carrying the older engine with only 400 ft lbs of torque. I drove the older model and it was plenty fast. The new ML should be able to hold its own against the BMW X5 with 425 ft lbs of torque. I must go test drive one.
It's really good for some applications though. Short haul trucking for example. The trucks return to the garage every night and they get refilled for the next day's trips. This guy thinks that it'll work long haul too. (Motley Fool)
Meanwhile crude jumped to $109.
speaking of which, why AREN'T there steam cars? Maybe I need a new topic for that!
:P
PS
if you like instant torque an EV is for you.
True, the infrastructure is lacking currently, but there's no reason that that can't improve.
Let's go over the advantages:
- Zero foreign oil. The U.S. has over a hundred years supply.
- Prices are strictly controlled as the same fuel is used for heating homes. This means the oil cartels (oops, I mean companies) can't gouge needlessly like they currently do. If they tried, millions of elderly people would be up in arms come the next winter.
- The Potential to fuel at home exists. 200-250 miles range is not so bad if you can refill every night.
- Less air pollution than even electric if you factor in the power plants for all those EVs.
- No batteries at all like hybrids. No nickel or lithium, both of which are horrendous for the environment to mine and refine. No batteries to eventually replace, either.
- Range is twice to three times that of EVs. The Civic GX has a solid 200 mile range, even on a bad day. Considering that it's a refit and not custom-designed, a 350-400 mile range CNG car would be quite doable.
- No excessive price premium like most EVs and Hybrids.
- Permanent access to HOV lanes and so on long after the hybrids are no longer allowed to use them.
If that is the case why does it cost $2.95 GGE from a public station in SD and the fleet customers get it for $1.92?
I do agree CNG is the cleanest form of transportation fuel, including the so called ZEV vehicles.
The Civic GX is also far superior to any hybrid from an emissions and complexity standpoint. If I had a long commute, up to 100 miles each way, and access to NG with a PHILL it would be a top choice.
I don't see a big surge in adding CNG stations. We have far less than we did 15 years ago. It does look like the PHILL is back on the market. Being built by an Italian company. Sold here by Impco.
http://www.impcoautomotive.com/index.php?pagename=fuelmaker
The local taxes (quite a lot of that is the city itself being greedy/charging you for the privilege of using their equipment) that are added onto fuels still apply, but the base rate hardly fluctuates for months at a time. It's not even spring yet and the oil companies are gouging for no good reason. Gas here in Los Angeles is upwards of 4.50 a gallon as I type this. It's expected to hit $5 a gallon by summer, or maybe $6. $2.95 from some greedy minicipality is still a no-brainer. That 28mpg combined (closer to 32 if you use freeways as most people do with these things) ads up to 70mpg or better equivalent to gasoline.
Two more advantages:
1 - No smog. In fact, in Los Angeles, the emissions from its exhaust are actually slightly cleaner than the surrounding air on summer days.
2 - Fills in the same amount of time as a gas pump. This is critical for acceptance as you don't need to deal with idiocy like swapping batteries and so on like some EV scenarios are suggesting.
As far as driving it goes, it's a basic bog-standard Civic. You'd not know it was any different than the gas powered one. All you lose is half of your trunk, which is not too bad, considering. A dedicated design would have it hidden, of course.
I also ran across this:
http://cngchat.com/forum/showthread.php?7559-Runnung-the-Civic-GX-%28and-other-C- NG-vehicles%29-on-propane
According to people who have tried this, it's physically possible for the system to use Propane. Now, I don't advise doing what he did, naturally, but Honda could easily come up with a dual-fuel option I wager. Adding Propane as an alternate fuel would greatly increase the usability until the number of stations increases.
And, if you want to get technical about it, we can artificially create these gasses if at some time the oil actually does run completely out.
if you shop for a card/cashback-program, consider that many of the programs do not give the % rebate for diesel purchases, only for *gasoline* . sometimes it's in the fine print. "*" .
Nope, not airplanes, not agriculture....it's fuel---gasoline, diesel and jet fuel.
117 million gallons per day goes to Europe, Asia, Latin America.
We are beyond being the middle east of coal. What do we do? It is practically outlawed. We are energy deficient. So Clinton during his administrations makes secret deals to supply coal fired plants in China etc. Warren Buffet buys rail roads that ship guess what? We are beyond being the middle east and russia of natural gas. Prices are at the lowest. We attack fracking. We will probably limit use. Again we are energy deficient. Oil from Canada, an actually friendly vendor. Disapproval of the Keystone XL pipeline. Again we are energy deficient. HUGE supplies of oil in the US, improbable to get new federal drilling leases. We of course are energy deficient.
Now solar and wind? Not even the environmentalist's really want it. You will never guess who fights the bigger scale "farms"? Sen Kennedy demo, MA, RIP put the kibosh on the sea borne wind farm. Now if it and solar are so efficient, why are we so deficient?
So we have been "arranged" to be "deficient ". What is left in the middle? Higher prices?