What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

Mr_Shiftright

We are deficient at the moment because we are selling it all overseas. It's our biggest export now. See post 4580. Why are we selling it overseas. Because it's more profitable to do so. Corporations have no loyalty to country.

We have plenty of resources. We have no, nor have we ever had, an adequate energy policy to manage them.

As for air quality, spend some time in Mexico City. it's sobering. No, horrifying. You'll die prematurely there from contaminants in the air. That could very well have been Los Angeles.

You could suck all the oil out of all of the USA and you'd barely gain enough time to breath, because consumption is still going up even though you add resources.

It simply cannot work and it will go bust unless there is an energy policy IMO. You don't pour more and more water into a leaking bucket without patching the holes first.

Americans are pretty naive about all this I think. For instance, now we're getting e-mails about "don't buy gas on Friday! It will cause gas prices to drop!"

Well, NO IT WON'T---because nobody plans to stop DRIVING on Friday. All they're doing is pushing the shopping day to Saturday. See what I mean?

ruking1

..."Corporations have no loyalty to country. "... ??

Sure they do !! They get tax credits for selling overseas !!?? Part of the credit is the surcharge they hit consumers with and actual IRS contributions. Hard to do that if you don't file IRS tax returns !!?? Of course it is even nicer when they actually can charge more !! ??

gagrice

We are deficient at the moment because we are selling it all overseas. It's our biggest export now. See post 4580. Why are we selling it overseas. Because it's more profitable to do so. Corporations have no loyalty to country.

Why should they have loyalty. I cannot remember a time when the oil companies were not excoriated by the politicians and the press. They are helping our dismal balance of trade. Do you think gas prices would be any different if they just shut down the un-needed refineries? The whole Keystone pipeline project is to handle the flow of oil from Canada. So what if we make it into Gas and diesel to sell to other countries. We do profit. We do put people to work in the process. Why does Apple get a pass when they make WAY more profit than any oil company? And they have hired 500,000 Chinese to make their products. Products that used to be made here in CA.

We all know how silly the emails are about not buying gas on X days. It does amaze me how they keep popping up.

ateixeira

The down side of dual fuel is loss of HOV, if that is a priority

Did they make an exception for the Volt? Didn't it qualify some how?

gagrice

The new Volt will have the proper warranty to take advantage of the NEW green HOV stickers coming out. The state is giving out 40,000 on a first come first serve basis. Only two cars qualify. The Plugin Prius and the NEW Volt. The AT-PZEV warranty has to be 15 yrs 150k miles on emissions and 10 years 150k miles on the battery. The new EVs get the white HOV sticker and only need to warranty the battery for 8 years and 100k miles.
Plugins up to $1500 tax rebate
EVs up to $2500 tax rebate

PS
Still has to be approved by the EPA. For what reason I don't know.

ateixeira

Politics I'm sure, it's never simple.

So if the fed will ante up a $10k rebate, Cali residents could get a total of $12,500 back.

ruking1

I remember during the last car sales crunch (2008/2009), the "rebates"(way less money than 12,500) were indeed offered. After the UPSHOT to those folks who could NOT afford the car. :confuse: The folks that COULD afford the cars were denied the rebate based on either timing (which changed on the literal fly), AMT or the AGI was too high.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I certainly hope that any American who is fundamentally opposed to 'government handouts" refuses the rebates. :P

ateixeira

They're afraid to raise gas taxes so they have pet projects like this so that they can claim they are a pro-green candidate. But why favor one specific technology over any other?

I say give incentives to any vehicle that uses less than 10 barrels of oil per year (or energy equivalent).

That's a fair target that everyone can aim for.

ruking1

Your's no more or less fair than any other metric.

ruking1

LOL by default, .... YES, the government did it for them.

ateixeira

It's better than the rebate based on the battery capacity.

A 6-figure Fisker Karma gets a huge rebate despite the fact that it likely takes the GDP of a small country's worth of energy to produce.

Mr_Shiftright

'bout 50 barrels of oil I think to produce a modern car. So figure 19 gallons of gasoline per barrel of oil, so figure 1000 gallons of gas to make up before you break even on your carbon footprint---not taking into account, of course, where you got the electricity from.

ruking1

So is that bragging or complaining?

gagrice

I would suppose most of those of US that are opposed to Tax rebates are also opposed to high taxes. So this is a way to stick it to the rest of the tax payers... :P If you even have a tax burden of $10,000. Cannot be carried over. So that eliminates probably 75% of US buyers. The i-MiEV buyer will make out the best with $12,500 off of $30,000 makes it Yaris territory. Maybe to promote the use of Obama's new found source of diesel from Algae, he will offer a big fat tax credit on the new Fiat GC Diesel.

ruking1

Well a TAX rebate and or Credit (which I know you know is better than a deduction) is a partial antidote to higher taxes. So in effect it set up certain conditions (which had to be met and in a short time frame, etc). I would even opine that the conditions were set and on the fly to eliminate most folks who indeed met the certain conditions, but not ALL of them and to the letter. It was PRECISELY because I didn't have to buy or really want to buy the 2009 diesel that I was able to "score"(aka meet ALL the requirements) the tax credit. My CPA was even confused about it for a number of weeks.

I also think he talked about the diesel from algae option because it has the LEAST chance of wider spread success. It has just enough R& D monies to prevent comatose from setting in but not enough fire power to increase the chances of significant break throughs. The upshot will be higher gasoline prices. While being able to say he exhausted this "green alternative".

A small detail he fails to mention is there are no EPA certified diesels engines which can run up to 100% bio diesel.

gagrice

I would like to see more spent on algal biodiesel. Sadly it would probably end up in the pockets of campaign contributors with little or NO R&D being done. We saw how much was handed out with little or no results over the last few years. Probably best to let the free market do what it does best and save the tax dollars.

ruking1

I would also agree, and on both counts. It really has enormous potential. UC San Diego has a lot of research going on in that area. link title

I think one of the greater milestones would be 100% bio diesel being EPA certified for engines that can meet that specification. In that sense, it would be backward compatible with any combination of ULSD. The current line of VW TDI engines are only specified and more importantly certified by the EPA for up to 5% bio diesel. Or at least that is what my 2003/2009 VW Jetta TDI owners manuals say. Any use of a percentage (biodiesel) over that for engines and emissions, currently voids engine and emissions warranty work.

Not that VW TDI engines are the be all to end all. However VW is one of the very few that OEM'S the most (however small percentage and volume) of passenger car diesel engines on the American road. It is well known that GM Ford and Dodge diesel products, etc. can be used for other than on road applications and have niche markets for bio diesel conversion and/or adaptations.

ateixeira

Both?

ateixeira

The i-MiEV buyer will make out the best with $12,500 off of $30,000 makes it Yaris territory

Yeah, but you basically get a golf cart. It needs to sell for $10k.

gagrice

The Leaf and Volt should be low $20Ks to be practical. The i-MiEV is more like a glorified golf cart. Nice for those rainy senior complexes in Florida. Like the Villages.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Qrpq5A-KAoA

Mr_Shiftright

You know, I bet could fit a BMW F 800 motorcycle engine in one of those carts. They'd move out a lot smarter with 85 HP :P

larsb

Gary says, "The Leaf and Volt should be low $20Ks to be practical."

Yeah, that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

And why would you say that, when the average new U.S. car is around $29,000? Why do the Volt and Leaf have to be LOWER than the U.S. average?

But remember: Leases can be had for those vehicles for around $350/month. Below the U.S. average for a new car payment, and in line with the average payment for a USED car.

If a person is shopping for either a Leaf or Volt, and the amount they can pay is limited to less than $400, they'd be smart to go for a lease.

Nothing impractical about a $350/month lease.

ateixeira

the average new U.S. car is around $29,000? Why do the Volt and Leaf have to be LOWER than the U.S. average?

In the case of the Volt, because it is a very small car, with only 4 seats.

It's based on a shortened Cruze platform, so the price should be sub-Cruze.

Cruze costs $17 to $23k or so, sans options. Volt should at least be close, but it's not.

Or we could say the TCO should be similar to the Cruze, once the incentives and fuel costs are factored.

Currently you can lease a Volt for $349 or the bigger, 5-seat Cruze for $169.

Per the EPA, which makes all sorts of EV-favoring assumptions like getting cheap electricity, so best-case scenario you save about $96 per month if you drive a lot (15k miles/year) AND you have the utopian ideal of EV only driving all the time (most people would use at least some gas so costs would be higher).

You're still in the hole about $84 a month, to drive a smaller car.

Remember, that's EV all the time, ideal assumptions, cheap electricity, and even assuming you already have a 220v outlet already installed.

It doesn't make economic sense, so you have to pick the Volt for other reasons, basically.

gagrice

If someone wants a Cruze size vehicle and great economy, the Cruze diesel should be out by the end of the year. Still probably $10k less than the Volt.

qbrozen

And why would you say that, when the average new U.S. car is around $29,000? Why do the Volt and Leaf have to be LOWER than the U.S. average?

Because its a below-average car? :P

Seriously, though, the problem with an average like that is, obviously, the severe outliers influence it significantly. It is like having 20 $10,000 cars on your lot and 1 $100,000 car. Now your "average selling price" from that lot is over $14k. Does that mean all the $10k cars should be priced at $14k? Of course not.

larsb

Well, the Volt is not a "below average" car. The owners just love the heck out of it. The reviewers for the most part do also.

Not many valid complaints about the Volt other than high price, and that can be alleviated by getting a lease.

So, there go all the valid arguments against it, debunked.

Go Go VOLT-AGE !! :shades:

ateixeira

The owners just love the heck out of it

They would have to, to pay the extra it takes to own one. The non-lovers would be weeded out.

So, there go all the valid arguments against it, debunked.

Apparently you skipped my post...higher cost for a smaller car vs. Cruze.

Gary: good point on the "Grand Volt LWB" Diesel, oops, I mean Cruze Diesel.

qbrozen

Well, the Volt is not a "below average" car. The owners just love the heck out of it. The reviewers for the most part do also.

What does that have to do with the cost? If a Honda Fit has a better ownership experience than an Aston Martin DBS, does that mean the Fit should cost more??

gagrice

I am hoping my first choice in diesel vehicles wins first prize. Here are the finalist:

Ford Focus Electric

Mercedes-Benz 250 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY

Mitsubishi i (North America)

Peugeot 3008 Hybrid4

Renault Fluence ZE (Electric car)

http://www.wcoty.com/web/eligible_vehicles.asp?year=2012&cat=4

ateixeira

I doubt it will win due to its sheer size. Greenies are anti-SUV no matter how good, and facts won't get in their way.

Mr_Shiftright

The hybrid will probably win.

ateixeira

Well, it is World COTY, so many of these will lose votes for not being offered globally.

Ford Focus Electric
Mercedes-Benz 250 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY
Mitsubishi i (North America)
Peugeot 3008 Hybrid4
Renault Fluence ZE (Electric car)

Come to think of it, which one is? Focus EV maybe? I bet that wins.

The French cars have no shot. Only the French media will vote French, and even then they'll steal votes from each other.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I wouldn't discount the French. They have produced some of the most innovative cars of the last 100 years. People might not COPY them in all aspects, but French engineering is very imaginative. They were among the first Europeans with highly efficient, powerful little turbo diesels, and of course their Citroen DS is a milestone car in automotive history, when it debuted in 1955.

ateixeira

No doubt, but enough to win awards? I imagine if they put World in the name, it must be a selection of journalists from around the world.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah that's the point. The French seem do well in "world" awards, and very badly when it's just US and UK journalists or panelists. Americans tend to be myopic.

ateixeira

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/06/volkswagen-cross-coupe-phev-diesel-concept-ge- neva-2012/

This is what you get when you cross a Tiguan TDI with a Chevy Volt, I guess.

xwesx

A little funky (notably all the lost space in that raked rear hatch), but I could live with it. Diesel hybrid... hell yes! The problem is that we cannot even seem to get a good showing of diesels (non VW), let alone a hybrid version.

gagrice

Will it get all the big tax credits? A lot better looking than the Volt. Which may be history, if they cannot get some orders for them. Maybe the HOV incentive will be enough.

Mr_Shiftright

What's hurting the volt is probably the same thing that's keeping diesel sales to minimal numbers---the ever increasing efficiency of the gas engine. I hear Ford is working on a 170HP 1.0L engine--is that true?

ruking1

In that sense, the oems of gas engines have been lagging for at least as long as I have been alive. When was I interested or cognizant of cars? 57 years ago. (Yes I liked cars at a very early age). So for as long as they want, need or have to lag technically, I still like the 30% plus advantage of diesel products: or TDI products. I would be tickled pink with 4 cylinder GASSER products that as a min of 140 hp, but more importantly 236# ft of torque ( more is better) with 40-50 mpg. To wit and to date,.... NONE, NADA, ZILCH. The ones that do, have a much more costly and technological complicated that in effect overloads the puny engine and at speeds that most folks don't go, uses the engine minimally or is off 20% of the time.

So right now a V-8 engine that gets 26 to 32 mpg is one of the "latest gasser technical" achievements. This is based on an engine that cost $84 to manufacture when it was first stuffed into Am sedans in the mid 50's, 's app 55-60 years ago. I think on a good day, those things got like 15 mpg.

Now, I am not saying what you are saying is not happening. It is more like a Samuel Beckett play, albeit, Waiting For Godot.

Mr_Shiftright

The vast majority of car buyers don't care about 'torque" and don't even know what it is. They might enjoy how it "feels" on a test drive but it's not a selling point to mention it. People I think look at the window sticker for the MPG and that has tremendous weight in their decision.

And their decision affects what the automaker produces in the future. In this respect, the diesel engine has no great advantage over gas engines at the moment, and a price impediment to boot.

It's gonna be a long haul for diesel cars in the USA. Americans do not much like diesel cars. They don't DISLIKE them.... It's just not on most Americans' radar one way or the other.

ruking1

Well I think that is easy to do on a turbo diesel. I looked at EPA 42/49 mpg.

When 90 hp kicked me in the butt, puny in any gasser owners perspective, (aka 155# ft of torque) all day @ (well 6.25 hrs with a 12.1 gal fill) , it has been a source of amazement since. I am still waiting for a 350 cu in V-8 to get 42/49 mpg. You and I both know that is probably not in the cards.

Mr_Shiftright

Well as smaller gas engines get more powerful, you won't need V8s for anything except tow vehicles and sports cars. We'll even see turbo 4s in entry level luxury cars pretty soon.

Diesels don't compete with V8s, they compete with turbo 4s for the most part, at least in passenger cars in the US--and right now, hybrids outperform most diesels in MPG. But the hybrids carry the same premium as the diesels in MSRP. Once the little gasser engines match diesel MPG (and they are only maybe 8 mpg away from that), then that presents an extra problem for diesel car marketing in the USA I think.

ateixeira

a V-8 engine that gets 26 to 32 mpg

You say that as if it were a bad thing.

Shoot, sign me up...

ruking1

?? This engine is already 11 m/y's old !! :shades: :sick:

ateixeira

Small Block Chevy is approximately 752 years old, who cares?

pknopp

A 1.4 liter gas engine is still not likely going last as long as a diesel.

ruking1

Really that is the whole point. 752 years old, ah alien technology eh?

ateixeira

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/07/2012-chevrolet-cruze-wagon-geneva-2012/

Cruze wagon offers 2 different diesels.

Since the USA doesn't get the 5 door hatch, why not bring that wagon here, with one of those bad boys?