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What about VW TDI engine?

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Comments

  • pocahontaspocahontas Member Posts: 802
    And thanks for sharing your impressions. We look foward to hearing more about your 2002 NB GLS TDI ownership experience. Happy Motoring!

    Pocahontas
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  • jabildajabilda Member Posts: 47
    VW, American manufactures and your government. Like many of you (diesel fans) on this post, I want the economy of a diesel engine, specifically the VW engine. (OK, great, go buy one). I want it in the Passat. In many communications with VW, the MARKETING department responds that the diesel engine in the North American market is not viable. My point is that the Passat diesel is produced, in Europe, so why is it America cannot have a few of them? We receive the other cars w/ a diesel engine (you get the gist / rant).


    You can email VW on their site through a contact link (the link is not intuitive - here's the link:


    http://www.vw.com/contact/contact_feedback.htm?


    I've spoken (live) with the VW 1-800 number and they want ALL feedaback through this link - they state someone will reply (and they do). Please take 5 mins. and write them. Someone posted an article from an automobile site concerning the VW sales increase (article state 7% of all sales and dealers said TDI could have been as high as 18% of total USA VW sales if there was inventory). What a great article.


    I also spoke to a dealership, who guessed that if it does come to the USA, it will most likely be the 2004 Passat. The article confirmed that date. As a selfish American, I want it now.


    My brother had a NB diesel and loved it (I almost got that one - girlfriend got it. Is blood thicker than water????). It ran great - some small asthetic problems (window dropped into the door - fixed under warranty). I want one (in a Passat - new father, need room).


    To prove they're under demand, look closely at the fine print on all VW 'special offer' commercials - TDI's are excluded. Go figure.


    Lastly, DaimlerChrysler produces a 2.5l diesel engine (Detroit Diesel brand) for the Jeep line sold (you guessed it) in Europe (UK, specifically). Try the UK Jeep website - it's there. I saw a Durango with a Detroit Diesel when they were in town for a meeting (Phila, pa) and it fit in the engine bay nice. Emailed Detroit Deisel and received the same answer - emission issues keeping the vehicle fom US and Europe has a high demand for diesel engines (to go with their higher grade fuel).


    I guess when it finally catches on in the US, some oil/gas fatcats will cash in and diesel prices will rise because the "refining process based on the low % of diesel cars in America has driven the price (notice I said price and not cost) of diesel fuel to $2.59 / gallon. Let's hope not!!!!


    Remember, send VW an email to get service in USA (go diesels)!

  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    That writing VW would do much good. They'd LOVE to bring over a pump-deuse TDI engine. They'd love to bring over Passat TDIs. Methinks they're waiting for the USLD standard to be enforced (and the fuel made much clearner) before they bring it over. In addition, they can barely keep up with European demand for diesel cars... why ship them here when they can sell 'em for more in a much more diesel-friendly environment.

    Many manufacturers do diesels for the European market. Heck, Mercedes is making a plant somewhere in the south (Alabama? Miss?) that'll be making a twin-turbo diesel M-Class, for export to Europe of course.

    IMO, if you want more diesels in the US (and I know many of us do), become a missionary. Tell everyone what a great car the diesel is and how well it runs and how great the MPG is (got 45 MPG in my 1996 TDI Passat sedan). Write your congress-people asking them to encourage diesel useage. Infiltrate the Sierra Club and other environmental groups that have the misguided opinion that diesel is dirty. I joined the Sierra Club this year, in part to do just that.
  • erictooleyerictooley Member Posts: 13
    We bought a 2002 NB TDI a couple of weeks ago and just fueled up for the first time: 12.054 gallons for 492 miles, which is almost 41 mpg. Not bad for a brand-new engine! The torque-biased power band isn't great for 0-60 runs, but is quite convenient around town: plenty of power without a lot of shifting. I'm accustomed to Honda powertrains, so shifting at 2500-3000 rpm has taken some getting used to. Highway cruising is relaxed and much quiter than our 98 Civic or 00 Focus.
  • blackstone3blackstone3 Member Posts: 29
    SO if I buy a 2002 TDI Jetta now and keep it for ten years will I have trouble finding high sulfur diesel fuel in 2006? I keep hearing talk about lowering the amount of sulfur in diesel fuel which would pave the way for more diesels however what happens to all the current diesels engines? Would I have to add sulfur everytime I filled up in 2006?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Low sulfur diesel fuel is already being used in European TDI and other diesel engines. Low sulfur diesel fuel will not require modifications to existing diesels. The current diesel engines will not require added sulfur but may require an additive to increase lubricity. One such brand is Power Service and what it does is add increased lubrication for the injection pump. Many people use this type of additive currently. Low sulfur diesel fuel will likely be refined to have a lubication quality equal or superior to existing diesel.
    It will not require expensive modifications to existing engines the way elimination of leaded gasoline did.
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    Between today's diesel and future low-sulfur diesel, from your car's perspective, will be that it'll run cleaner and smoother. :)

    It's not like the old days of lead gasoline. The sulfur doesn't do anything to help the engine run... it's just a pollutant.

    I for one plan to ride my 1996 TDI Passat well past 2006. Latest tank MPG: 47.25. :) I have a long daily commute and have been experienting with MPH as it relates to MPG. It makes a big difference. When I went 85 MPH, I got 43 MPG. I slowed down to 82 and my MPG jumped to 45. Now I'm going 77ish and got 47.25 on my first tank.

    Gotta love it.
  • blackstone3blackstone3 Member Posts: 29
    I currently have a remote starter on my car which is one of the best inventions for people living in New England. Is it possible to install a Starter on the manual TDI Jetta? I heard the car wont blow hot air until the car is driven even if it sits started for a period of time. Is this true? Any feed back on this? Thanks for answering the questions about the sulfur.

    Jim
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The TDI does not really warm up until it is driven. It does not heat up the way a gasoline auto does at idle. As far as I know this is due to the diesel being more thermally efficient.
    I have the cold weather package ($150) which includes heated seats. Keeps me toasty until the motor heats up. I highly recommend the cold weather package if you get a GLS.
    I do not think it is a good idea to put a remote starter on diesel due to glow plugs in winter.
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    Do NOT use a remote starter. As moparbad pointed out, the car won't really get warm until you drive it. This is primarily because the engine is so darned efficient that it doesn't generate excess heat while idling. In addition, when it's cold you'll need to let the glow plugs run for a few seconds before starting.
  • blackstone3blackstone3 Member Posts: 29
    I drove a TDI manual Jetta GL yesterday. It was a lot quieter than I expected. The car had plenty of headroom and enough hip room. The only concern I had was the performance. I know this car is nothing like my Maxima, however I have driven many manual four cylinders. I really needed to wind out the tach to about 3.5 - 4 to get it accelerate. I know with diesels it has more torque at lower RPM's however this car kept pulling as the rpm's went up. I know there is a price to pay for such high MPG but I don't know if I am ready to make that sacrifice yet.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Much has been made about what the best shift point is for maximum economy. It is known that the engine "likes" running at around 2000 rpm, and the turbo starts kicking in at about 1500 and is going full tilt by 2000. Try shifting at about 2500 rpm during normal acceleration, then when cruising speed is reached, selecting a gear which puts the revs between 1500 and 2000.

    For absolute maximum acceleration with a stock engine, shift at about 4000 rpm, because power drops off quickly beyond this. There is little to be gained by shifting at 4000 compared to shifting at 3500.

    If there is not enough performance stock then there are chips available for the ECU which will add about 25HP.
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    That shifting at 3000-3500 will give you good pickup and keep your MPG high. Funny thing is, I was in a minor accident yesterday and had to rent a Grand Prix. While it probably could beat my TDI Passat in a 0-60 race, it just felt sluggish. I had to thrash the engine to get any pull. With the TDI, it's just there, there quickly, and there in copious amounts. :)

    Of course, there's a VERY easy way to improve your speed AND MPG ... get an UPsolute chip. 30% increase in torque and HP, a much smoother power band, and slightly increased MPG!
  • blackstone3blackstone3 Member Posts: 29
    I heard about these chips... sounds to good to be true. Is it hard to install? Will it void my warranty? God forbid, if there was any engine damage can I take it out and then bring it to the dealer and play dumb? I saw one that cost around six hundred but the HP & torque increased significantly.

    Jim
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    Usually you'll have to have them do the chipping. I did mine at a get together, where they chipped a bunch of cars at once (at a discount). Check out http://www.tdiclub.com and their message boards for get together and chip discussions.

    UPsolute seems to be the chip of choice. It's $325 standard, and gives you about a 30% increase in torque and HP and a small increase in MPG if you can keep yourself from gunning the car with all the newfound power.

    You can ask your dealer if a chip will void the warrantee. Seems to vary from dealer to dealer. If it DOES, you can always get a tuning box instead of a chip. They do roughly the same thing, but a TB is less elegant and won't be quite as smooth. It also can be removed in a few minutes, so you could take it off before you head to the dealership.

    Of course, a chip is hard to detect anyway. They'd have to go in and find it (or drive it and realize it's way too powerful).

    http://www.tdiclub.com will be able to answer all your questions.
  • leomortleomort Member Posts: 453
    server can't find the tdiclub website. is it still active?

    Leo
  • bluewolfbluewolf Member Posts: 101
    The site is down until later today from what I've heard...
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    what the title says
  • suntansuntan Member Posts: 1
    i live in LA...and gas prices are rising..I am thinking of picking up a used TDI....any thoughts, suggestions or concerns?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    The TDI's are great engines. As for used you'll just have to look for a good deal. The resale values are high. I had a 2000 Jetta GLS TDI that had a list price of $21k and I sold it a year later with 35k miles for $17k. It was a great car, but my wife got a company car and we had 3 vehicles in the driveway. Since we have a boat I had to keep the tow vehicle and sell the VW.

    I've heard TDI's are not for sale in CA. Since I live in the midwest I don't know if that's true or not. If it is I'm sure the used ones really will command a premium.

    If you are purchasing from a private party, just try to verify maintenance was performed on a timely basis.

    Good luck
  • transmittransmit Member Posts: 2
    Just got a 2002 TDI GLS Golf. It rocks!! The engine is plenty powerful and I am loving the car! This car was a downgrade from my 1999 Subaru Legacy but it is more powerful and alot more fun to drive... Not to mention double the mileage.
  • revkarevka Member Posts: 1,750
    May it serve you well for many years to come. Btw, you may also be interested in our ongoing VW Golf discussion. We look forward to hearing more about your ownership experience.... Happy motoring!

    Revka
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  • minuchin1minuchin1 Member Posts: 6
    I agree that the the TDI engine is far more powerful than I expected. However, my Jetta proves to have flimsy, fragile interior components, not to mention persistent, costly repairs. I've owned it for 7 months and am ready to move on.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I could not disagree with you more. The VW is praised for the quality of it's interior. I have both Golf and Jetta TDI and no problems at all with any interior components. What components are you referring to? Problems so far have been one window regulator replaced and one heated mirror glass replaced. The TDI is truly a great car. Possible problem areas with TDI and VW in general are window regulators and MAF sensors.

    miniuchin- what year of TDI do you have? How many miles? Did you buy it new? Do you have a dealer service problem or a car problem? Do you abuse your car or is it just a lemon?
  • minuchin1minuchin1 Member Posts: 6
    Based on your reply, I'm thinking I may be dealing with a lemon. I'm the second owner--it's a 2000 with 71k miles, and maybe that says it all. I bought the TDI because I commute and heard good reports about the engine durability. Since I got the car I've replaced a window regulator, rear brakes (they were out of aligment--one wore to metal while the other was barely worn), two glow plugs needed to be replaced (I replaced all four), the wiring harness has a "sporadic problem" that I'm waiting on, and now I need to fix the mass air control center. I'm not hard on cars. In fact, quite the opposite. Much of the interior wear came from the previous owner. Interior components that have problems include the front cup holders, glove box hinges, rear ash tray, center console arm rest--fabric is faded and the cushion is flattened. Mark, how many miles do you have on your TDI? Do you think I'm experiencing the high miles hazards?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    When you refer to the mass air control center I think what you mean is the MAF. The Mass Air Flow sensor is a problem on both gas and diesel VW's. The good news is that the MAF for the 2.0 appears to be working fine on the TDI. It can be obtained for $45 from www.vwparts.com and for slightly more from a VW dealer. The part number for the 2.0 MAF is 06A906461A and the part number for the TDI MAF is 06A906461. The TDI MAF is $255.00. Buy the 2.0 MAF and save yourself over $300 compared to having the dealer install a TDI MAF. The dealer will tell you the 2.0 MAF will not work. You can verify what I am telling you at www.tdiclub.com.

    The glove box door latches are a problem area. Cup holder has been a problem for some people. You seem to have a car that was used roughly and that has nearly every problem possible. Better luck in the future.
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    You can also remove and clean it... may solve your problem. Do some searches at http://www.tdiclub.com for instructions.
  • minuchin1minuchin1 Member Posts: 6
    Wow. You just saved me hundreds. The dealer wants to charge me $366 for the part and over $100 for labor. Thanks for the tips. I searched TDIclub.com and couldn't find instructions on how to clean it. Is the labor on this easy for a automotive neophite as myself, or should I have a mechanic do it?
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    Don't get too exited yet... cleaning it may NOT solve your problem, but it certainly is doable for the quasi-mechanic.


    Check out this page for some instructions:

    http://forums.tdiclub.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=17&t=001565


    Post over at TDIClub.com's general maintenance... there may just be someone local who can help you out. There are a ton of folks over there who love to work on these cars. :)

  • ywilsonywilson Member Posts: 135
    I don't own a TDI but a friend has a 2001 Golf Tdi and swears by it. I have owned VW's in the past and liked thier reliability. I am gathering info about the VW TDI and from what I am seeing it is a good vehicle. But, I do alot of work around my house and need my truck. I am seriously entertaining the thought of getting one of these down the road. When I was in Europe (France,Italy) I was amazed to see that most of the cars there were TDI's of every make and model. I was even more amazed that there was no smell of diesel fumes or fuel anywhere. They drive like regular gas cars. Is it true that the diesel there is better processed than the diesel here? I heard that somewhere but have been unable to verify it. The Europeans are miles ahead of us on diesel engines. Just think what it would do for petro usage if we had diesels in all our cars like the Europeans do.
  • idletaskidletask Member Posts: 171
    As a European, I was really surprised to see that VW dared selling TDI engines at all on the US market. They probably don't sell many of them, but they probably don't mind either given VW's insane financial health. Probably a test for them, but if it is successful, expect other EU brands to try and sell their Diesel engines on you too...

    Here in France, Diesel powered cars have outsold gas powered cars for two years now. The main reasons behind this are the great improvements made in Diesel engines for the last 5 years, their better mileage but above all the fact that Diesel fuel is 20% less expensive than gas. Here, gas "scores" at $1 per... liter! That's about $3.5 per gallon...

    Nearly every European (and now Japanese!) manufacturers have Diesel engines. VW's TDIs (I don't even know which version is on sale in the US) exist in numerous fashions: inline 4, 1.9l displacement, with horsepowers of 90, 100, 110, 130 and 150. Torques range from 144 lbft to... 224 lbft (yes, you read well, that's more than most gas powered V6s out there). They equip very numerous models from the different brands owned by VW (Skoda, Audi, VW itself, Seat, and I forget some of them). Average mileage for these engines range from 35mpg to 42mpg. Also existing are V6 TDIs, 2.5l displacement, with hp of 155 and 180, torques of 231 to 268 lbft, mileage 34mpg (best) to a not so impressive 25mpg (Audi A4 V6 TDI Quattro 180). Quite a large palette, uh? :)

    On to the most noticeable engines out there, though there are so many it's impossible to list them all:

    * probably the most fuel-efficient engine in the world for its power is BMW's inline 6 3l, which scores 183hp and a hefty 288 lbft of torque (more than a Porsche 911 or an M3!) from 1700rpm up to 3200rpm. Equipping the 3 series (Try "BMW 330d" in Google), this damn thing can lead it from 0 to 60mph in 7 seconds, swallows the quarter mile in 15'2 seconds, scores... 141mph top speed, accelerates from 50 to 75mph in 5'4/6'6/8'8 on gears 3/4/5, but manages to score a 36mpg average mileage! Ever wondered why BMW's 328i was replaced with 330i? 330d was the reason :) The same engine also equips the 5 series (in which it scores 193hp and 296 lbft) and X5, and soon the new 7 series, but this time with 203hp and 310 lbft torque...

    * THE flagship Diesel engine nowadays is Mercedes' (yes, you read well) 4.0l, V8 (!). It scores 250hp and... 412 lbft of torque! It equips the S series, G series and ML series, and outsells all other engines available in these models! The S series, dubbed S400 CDI, scores 155mph top speed (voluntarily limited!), 50 to 75mph in... 4' (in Drive - no manual gearbox available) and still manages to get a 23mpg average mileage...

    * lastly, soon next year, VW is going to unleash a 5l, V10 TDI engine. The 313hp is already not bad for the displacement, but the torque is mindblowing: 542 lbft! The first vehicle which will have the privilege to get this engine is the VW Phaeton, but it will also make its way into the future Audi A8 and VW Tuareg.

    Needless to say, many, many other engines exist, this is only a sample (although I think I've listed pretty much all the TDI engines, except the 1.4 TDI, 75hp and 144 lbft). And needless to say, BMW and Mercedes are both working on replies to VW's monster V10 TDI... The war is not over... Oh, also, more than 80% sales of super sedans and luxury sedans are Diesel equipped... That says quite a lot.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    We have the 90 bhp TDI.

    Some of us wish for the PD TDI's, especially the 130 or 150 bhp version.

    OUr problem is the level of sulphur in our diesels compared to Europe.
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    ywilson, indeed our diesel fuel is crappy compared to Euro fuel. Their max PPM for sulfur is 15. Our is 500!!! Most of the junk you see coming out of trucks, etc, is sulfur.

    December 31, 2006 is the deadline for implementation of ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel), which will make them much cleaner and will allow the US to get the good diesels they have in Europe.
  • oogeeoogee Member Posts: 1
    I've got a TDI. Actually, two of them: 2001 Golf and Jetta, both 5 spd GLS 4 door models. Awesome cars!! Love them both, but like my Golf more. Somehow it's got more zip to it. According to my dealership here in Arizona, the rear windows have a pinch sensor problem that required the replacement of both motors. He's got a pile of them that VW has yet to claim. I had both of mine done on the Golf while under warranty. My (wifes) Jetta had the glove box latch break, also covered under warranty.

    Question I have is this: I am moving to Alaska, where the temperatures average -20F or lower in the winter (sometimes as much as -60F!)
    Anyone with advice on operating a VW TDI in these conditions. Besides trying to find block, oil pan, and battery heaters, using synthetic oil, does anyone out there have experience with this, or maybe I am better off selling my TDIs?
    Does VW even make these heaters? I know that diesel is available up there, but want to know about the driveability and operation of the TDI/VW in the extreme cold. Any help much appreciated. Thanks
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    I think I've seen some sort of heater in the VW Driver's Gear Catalog.
  • japetjapet Member Posts: 5
    The concern with diesel and cold weather is very over rated. Diesel in northern climates is treated to avoid gelling. The oil pan heater is a must, get it installed up north where they will know what they are doing and may offer an alternative suggestion. Last “spring” my 2000 Golf TDI was parked outside for 3 days at -40F, not plugged in, (not recommended). It did start with a pause and a cloud of black smoke. After 30 minutes of idling it ran fine except for the square tires. Also if you don’t have the heated seats get them because on short trips the engine does not warm up.

    Good luck!
  • cranecrewcranecrew Member Posts: 27
    I live in Maine and own a TDI Beetle. Twenty below zero over night - the car always starts in the morning like it has been waiting for me to turn the key. I do use Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 synthetic motor oil and I always use a splash of Power Service diesel fuel conditioner when I fill up. I've had the car for 24 months and I now have 107,000 miles on it. The thing runs like the day I drove it off the lot. Change the oil every 15,000 miles and it doesn't use a drop. K&N air filter also!
  • jeff186jeff186 Member Posts: 95
    Can anyone shed some light on TDI maintenance costs. Specifically, what does the manual recommend for the oil change interval? What does an oil change cost for the TDI engine? What other info should I know re: diesel maintenance? I expect the costs to be much higher compared to a Corolla or Sentra, but want to quantify it some. Thanks.
  • cranecrewcranecrew Member Posts: 27
    Well there are no spark plugs, wires or other electricaL ignition stuff to worry about. I can't stress the importance of clean fuel enough (water free). I think the maintenance manual states oil changes every 10,000 miles for TDI's. Fuel filter is pricey $50.00!!! I had a Honda Civic and I find maintenance costs to be less than Civic.
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    From what I've gathered, TDI maintenance is less frequent, but more expensive per interval. The two factors should work out to make the overall maintenance cost end up in the same ballpark.
  • jeff186jeff186 Member Posts: 95
    Hmmm, still mulling it over, TDI vs. Corolla/Sentra. I've noticed that diesel fuel cost goes up in the winter months, at least here in N.J. Right now, diesel is about 10 cents less than unleaded regular. Another question I need to ask: anyone know how the current TDI engine will be affected when low-sulfur diesel (finally!) becomes mandatory in 2006. I understand that some new diesel engines may come over from Europe then. But if I buy a TDI today, I plan on having it for many, may years. Thanks again.
  • revkarevka Member Posts: 1,750
    You can also look up recommended manufacturer maintenance & costs in Edmunds' Maintenance Guide. Good luck.


    Revka

    Host

    Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

  • abc246abc246 Member Posts: 305
    Is VW changing the output of this engine or going to use a larger TDI in the USA for 2003?
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    There won't be any changes for 2003 MY engines.

    When ULSD comes, a current TDI will just run better! :)

    Jeff, if you drive a ton, then a TDI will definitely be worth the extra $$ in terms of fuel savings. Or, you can run biodiesel and eat those fuel savings in a fit of environmental consciousness and patriotism. That's what I do. OPEC can kiss my hairy ... ;)
  • ywilsonywilson Member Posts: 135
    I have been looking at these and for me, it is just a matter of really liking the new technology. I also like the fuel savings. This very well maybe a purchase for me when I am ready for another vehicle. Where can you buy that new "bio-diesel"? I know it is made out of SOY but I have not seen anywhere to get it.
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    You can learn about biodiesel at www.biodieselnow.com.


    Luckily for you, there are several places in Maryland that carry biodiesel (Tevis Oil). Info here - http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=132

    (Moderators, if that link is inappropiate, please delete the last sentence).

  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    The main problem of ULSD is the lack of lubricity. Further refining of the diesel from our Low sulfure to ultra low sulfure reduces the lubricity, which may cause a problem (reducing life) of the fuel pump.

    This is here Biodiesel can help, even when used as an additive....(fill blank here)

    In Jersey, I've noticed diesel prices in NJ will raise with gasoline prices, and still being cheaper or comparable to regular gasoline, or sometimes mid-grade.
  • joffficerjoffficer Member Posts: 169
    Hi, I was thinking of replacing one of my cars with a Golf TDI. I work around jet aircraft, and have heard of others using JP-8 fuel in their cars/trucks. I've been told it's a much more refined diesel fuel, and works great. Anyone know the truth on that? (it sure could save even more money)
  • chmeeeechmeeee Member Posts: 327
    Evilbad, don't do that if you want your car to run. Jet fuel is very similar to kerosene, I think that very bad things would happen to your engine if you used it. You should, however, get the TDI. Then you can burn biodiesel and have almost no bad emissions!
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    Is BAD for a TDI. BAD, I say. ;)

    You will save money up front, but will have to replace your injectors, etc., fairly quickly. Jet fuel lacks the lubricity the engine needs.

    I would be curious as to how a jet fuel/biodiesel mix would work... hmmm.
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