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What about VW TDI engine?



  • ekkoh99ekkoh99 Posts: 17
    Look at sunday's NY times article on diesels. front page. may 27, 2001.

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    I am going to buy a diesel vehicle either new or used. I like the Jetta TDI if VW ever gets off the dime and sends them to California. The environmentalists are all wet in their abuse of the TDI engine. Europeans know what is good and what isn't. That is why they keep the diesels for themselves.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870

    Link to article about strong sales of TDI. TDI's should be somewhat easier to find this Fall when gasoline prices are not so high.

  • focusmatt2focusmatt2 Posts: 106
    Actually, Jaguar is the only company as far as I know that doesn't offer a diesel alternative to their regular engines overseas.

    If you think the 1.9 TDI is cool, you'd be surprised to know it's antiquated in terms of diesel technology. the 1.9 PD 130 as it is called, basically the same engine as the TDI but with direct injection technology (Aka Pumpe-Duse, where the PD acronym comes from). It has 130hp vs. the TDI's 90hp, and has a higher torque rating as well. They employ this engine in everything from the VW Golf to the VW Sharan (a minivan) and even the Passat. The reason I hate the US car market is because of the lack of options...You can get the Audi A6 with a 2.0 130hp engine, a 2.5diesel V6, all the way up to a 4.3 V8. So there is a model for every household and money bracket...American autos are far behind in technology, and imported autos to America lag behind their equivalents at home. Volkswagen Auto Group tends to be my favorite company due to the fact that they are taking the place of BMW and Honda in terms of innovation. They have the highest-efficiency, highest-performance diesels, effortless and economical turbocharged petrol engines, and the new W8 and W12 engines (which are VR6 engines arranged cascadingly and connected at the center with a common crankshaft). Even the 3.0 V6 Audi engine manages to crank out about 28mpg on the freeway.

    Diesel is in renaissance overseas, and some myths should be dispelled. The reason the TDI won't make the emissions standard in CA and NY is because we use very unrefined high-sulfur diesel. The TDI is an old design so it doesn't need low-sulfur diesel, but most others do. the PD engines and direct-injection engines require low-sulfur diesel, and in fact most modern turbodiesels require it. So it doesn't behoove any company to import an engine that won't run on any fuel readily available, right? Apparently low-sulfur diesel will be available in about 5 years in the US...which could mark a renaissance here.

    Low-sulfur diesel is actually as environmentally friendly or friendlier than petrol, and most European emissions standards are more stringent than the US, so you can rest assured that diesel in and of itself is clean.

    The newest diesel breakthroughs I have noticed are:

    the Pumpe-Deuse technology on VW engines
    BMW now sports a 330d, a 3-series with a 3.0 diesel inline six which has almost 300lb-ft of torque and hits 0-60 in about 8 seconds. BMW has made a commitment to being able to prove that diesel can be the fuel of a sports car. BMW has an equivalent diesel for almost every petrol engine they produce now.

    BMW also has a 2.5 inline-six diesel which is used in the 3, 5 and even 7 series overseas. It gets about 30-35mpg and puts out about 180hp and 250lb-ft, and apparently hits 0-60 in the 525d model in about 9 seconds. This is a marvelous combination of economy and performance.

    Diesel is now engine of choice for about 45% of the UK market, and ironically Honda's sales are doing poorly because Honda does not have diesel technology of their own. They have no engines to speak of that are diesel, and are having to outsource in order to catch up with the market.

    Toyota produces diesels, but apparently isn't very good at it. The next generation Echo (which is called the Yaris or Vitz overseas), is going to be built together with Peugeot, and Peugeot will supply the diesel engines while Toyota will supply it's VVT-i engines for gasoline.

    Ironically, european marques are selling well and making a profit. Apparently Renault and Peugeot have lots of change in their coffers...the Laguna midsized hatchback has a wonderful diesel and sells very well. Peugeot is very well respected in Europe and rom what i've seen, I am VERY disappointed they're not here in the US anymore. The new 307 apparently has the build quality of an Audi, the handling of a Focus, at the price of a Focus.

    But, before I go off on a tangent, just realize that the technology to support diesel is rapidly approaching that of petrol and that us Americans are in fact missing out on the most American thing of all, the freedom to choose in a consumer market.
  • mpgmanmpgman Posts: 723
    You'll get no argument here. I owned and loved a 78 Rabbit diesel and drove it for over 150,000 miles. Only complaint was the heavy and poorly designed installation of the York A/C compressor. Kept breaking mounting brackets due to the vibration. Are the PDs as expensive to maintain as the stateside TDIs in terms of synthetic oil, timing belt intervals and the like?
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    The cost for the one of the best synthetic oil for TDI is approximately $20 per oil change. The required interval for changing oil on TDI is 10,000 miles. You do the math and then do you still say that synthetic oil is expensive for TDI's.
  • focusmatt2focusmatt2 Posts: 106
    I am not entirely sure, but I am going to say no, because I was reading a review of three MPV's (minivans) in BBC Top Gear this month

    It was against the Chrysler Voyager with a 2.5 Turbodiesel, the Renault Espace with a 2.4 TD, compared to the Volkswagen Sharan with the 1.9 PD engine. The service interval for the Sharan was the longest, somewear near 20,000 miles, while the Voyager was a pathetic 7,000 and the Espace a more reasonable 15,000. So that appears to be one cost-saving measure. The direct-injection technology probably doesn't require shorter intervals for anything, since the basic difference between the 1.9 PD engine and the 1.9 TDI is 2 extra valves/cylinder, and the injector. So anything related to the injector probably requires special TLC.
  • mpgmanmpgman Posts: 723
    Not suggesting that buying synthetic oil will break the bank. Are you saying that VWs will run 10,000 miles without needing oil? I know that is what VW recommends. Perhaps they did that to lower the costs of the free maintenance that apparently ends with the 01 model year. I've owned 4 VWs dating back a ways and one thing they are not is miserly with oil. The 2.0 for example, is notorious for drinking oil. Besides, how many people can overcome the oil industry propaganda and wait 10k to change the oil? Many posters seem to think that anything over 3k is excessive. My point is that synthetic oil probably costs anywhere from 3-6 times that of regular oil per quart. Say you change the oil every 5,000 miles and add a quart in between. That's one quart per thousand miles of driving or 100 quarts over 100k. If a quart of synthetic oil costs $5 per (I'm assuming your price above if for the oil only and not the labor too)and a quart of regular motor oil costs $1 (many good brands can be bought for a buck on sale), that's $4.00 times 100 or $400 more for the oil alone. Big deal? Not to most. Annoyance? Can be. Add in the extra timing belt change and the more expensive fuel filter. All I am saying is that that a TDI buyer will be misleading themselves if all they look at is the mpgs with regard to cost of ownership. An Echo (used here as an example because of the similar mpg ratings for an automatic...Civic would fit here too with close enough mpgs), getting about the same mileage with an automatic as a TDI automatic, will cost less to own because it uses regular oil and has a timing chain. Is the Echo as nice a riding and equipped car as a VW? Not a chance. Should the Echo need as many repairs as the VW? Most likely not. Does the Echo cost less to insure? Bet it does. Bottom get what you pay for. That's why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors. Now....where is the Audi A2 that can get upwards of 100 mpgs on the highway? Believe me....I think the TDIs are great and may yet get one as car #2. It's come down to that or an Echo, strictly for overall length considerations, although I am tempted to see what the BMW Mini Cooper looks like.
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Are you supposed to let the turbo spin down b4 shutting off the engine? I don't own a TDI (considered a golf) just curious. Rob in Houston
  • mpgmanmpgman Posts: 723
    What are your thoughts on the automatic TDIs? I drive a lot in traffic and after hundreds of thousands of miles of shifting, I am really enjoying my Elantra GT automatic. Can the TDI engine handle auto and air OK, and is the mpg differential really huge like the window sticker says?
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    Oil analysis after 10K using a quality oil such as Mobil Delvac 1 has proven that not only is 10K appropriate, it is conservative. The TDI does not have the frequency of problems with burning oil that the 2.0 seems to have. My current TDI is not burning any oil though it does not have enough miles to be good example. Other owners (20 plus) that I have personally spoke with face to face do not have any oil burning either. There are some TDI's out there that do burn oil.
    About the earlier timing belt issues, I have two options available to have timing belt changed that will cost less than $300 including parts, and one of those is a dealer service department.
    Would be nice if there was a timing chain, the timing belt is an negative aspect of the TDI that I choose to accept.
    You are 100% correct that for ownership cost the VW is not lowest cost TDI or gasoline. It is however the most excellent ownership experience for the $ that I have come across.
    I spend far too much time in my car to have one that is not going to provide enjoyment when I drive it.
    Oh, and by the way, the TDI uses 4.4qts of oil, 10 oil changes over 100K miles would be $220 or $0.0022 per mile. This is using your $5.00 per quart figure.
  • focusmatt2focusmatt2 Posts: 106
    I would not recommend an traditional automatic with a 1.9 TDI engine. That combination is rare to unheard of overseas in European Golfs, Boras and Polos. The only reason the 1.9 TDI has the ability to get away with being peppy is because of its revvable nature.

    An automatic would sap it as much or worse than you can experience on a 2.0.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    The automatic in the TDI is very good. The torque on the TDI is 155lb-ft at 1900RPM. This is same torque as 1.8T. The automatic with TDI provides power immediately without having to rev the motor to 4K RPM like many gas 4CYL cars.
    70 to 80 MPH is quiet and comfortable with the engine turning less than 3K RPM.
    The comment about TDI's not having auto in Europe needs to be taken in context. Almost no small cars and very few large cars in Europe that I ever saw had automatic. Europeans prefer manual. Does not indicate that an auto is not good.
    I drive a TDI auto because I drive in major stop and go traffic and the auto just makes more sense. When I drive my truck with a manual I have to row the gears like a madman.
    A/C or no A/C, auto or stick, the TDI has plenty of performance, and if it is not powerful enough, $300 to have the car "chipped" will provide more performance.
    As far as the MPG difference, yes the sticker is accurate as to the MPG differnce.
    My mileage averages 42. 37-39 MPG for the TDI with auto is common for other owners. Over 50MPG is common for manual drivers. Expect a 15% penalty on the mileage for an auto compared to manual for the TDI.
  • focusmatt2focusmatt2 Posts: 106
    I still would not recommend the automatic. That's just my opinion... the automatic defeats the purpose of the TDI engine. You lose gas mileage, and the revvable nature of the engine is sapped.
  • focusmatt2focusmatt2 Posts: 106
    the 2.5 V6 TDI, a Volkswagen auto group engine offered in the Passat, among other cars, is really what I hear to be the best diesel for a midsized car. It has 150hp and 220lb-ft of torque, which is by any stretch of the imagination a very rapid vehicle.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    First of all the only TDI engine and only passenger car diesel offered in the US or Canada is the 1.9TDI by VW. Telling me how good the 2.5 is is like sending a child into a candy store and telling them they can not touch or taste any of the candy.
    How is the revvable nature of the engine sapped? This engine develops peak torque at 1900 RPM and operates best at 2 to 3K RPM. The mileage on manual is 42 city 49 hwy and on auto is 34 city and 44 hwy. 34/44 is damn good and only the Honda Civic HX CVT at 35/40 is comparable.
    As I posted earlier I average 42 MPG with my Golf TDI auto and this is with 50/50 city and hwy driving.
    The automatic is well suited to the torquey nature of the TDI. The manual is a better choice for higher mileage seekers and also saves cost due to 60K interval for timing belt as opposed to 40K interval for auto.
    Some people prefer auto, some prefer manual, with the TDI either option is a good one.
    ? for focusmatt2 How much time have you spent with auto TDI? I can honestly say that I was doubtful about the auto before I experienced it, experience of the auto sold the auto.
  • Hey Moparbad, gotta question about the engine oil for the TDI. I can't find the Castrol 10-40W that they use at the dealer anywhere else but at the dealer. And they want an arm and a let per quart.

    My question is: Do you know of anywhere where you can buy Castrol 10-40W? No auto parts stores seem to carry it. Is it okay to switch to 10W-30 Mobil 1? Will I get better gas mileage with the lighter oil switch? What oil do you use? Where do you buy it?

  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    Recommended Oils.

    Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40

    Chevron Delo 400 5W-40

    Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30

    There are others that are OK. Forget about the dealer Castrol. It is OK but not as good as the above. Below is a link to info on where the oils can be purchased.

    I use Mobil Delvac 1 and get it at Farm and Fleet Stores for about $19/gallon.

  • mpgmanmpgman Posts: 723
    Ditto on the use of a timing chain, except that with a diesel engine it would probably be a lot noisier. What kind of mpgs can you expect on the auto with a light foot and a steady 65 cruise? 45?

  • focusmatt2focusmatt2 Posts: 106
    My hire car in Britain (an Astra) had a 2.0 TDI engine from Vauxhall, which is similar in architecture. It had an automatic because I requested it, not knowing what i was getting into. Now i'll agree that that is not having driven a 1.9 TDI from VW with an auto, but they have similar performance figures.

    But it comes to the overall appeal of the engine. There's a reason many german carmakers outsource their automatic transmissions to GM and other American companies. I simply am recommending the manual over the automatic, because that engine/transmission combination is tried and true, and it yields better gas mileage. If you get the automatic, you are demoted to Civic HX mileage. And the Civic HX with its CVT is faster and runs on more readily available fuel and is cheaper to buy and likely cheaper to insure. Now, if VW would allow a CVT (known in Audis as Multitronic) to exist with the 1.9 TDI, I would recommend it. Sort of the best of both worlds.

    It's just that small 4-cylinder engines, especially diesel, tend to make driving a little less fun, a little less economical, and a little less peppy when mated to an auto tranny.
  • mpgmanmpgman Posts: 723
    For some strange reason, Honda puts a high economy engine in a coupe, which is most often associated with sportiness, as opposed to the sedan, where the more "frugal" or "more conservative" in this price segment might tend to trend. power windows (a plus for some), no ABS, not sure about the side air bag availability, etc., etc. I doubt that the HX with CVT is that much more miserly with fuel than the EX, and for that matter, drivers wanting more response might be heavier on the gas pedal on the HX which would hurt mileage. BTW, are the HXs out yet? I was looking for them a few months ago and dealers had no clue.
  • twig93twig93 Posts: 38
    When my manual TDI was in for an oil change, I was given an auto TDI Golf as a loaner. Let me just say.....I would never had bought an auto TDI. It drives nothing like the manual. It is so sluggish, I wasn't even sure I was moving at first. Of course, as it warmed up it did get better, but it had no where near the power I feel I have in the manual. Go drive an auto and then a manual. You WILL notice a difference.
  • mpgmanmpgman Posts: 723
    Interesting but a bit puzzling. I test drove a TDI auto and was shocked at how quick it was off the line. My only observation was that at around 40 mph, it was nowhere as quick to accelerate from there than the manual, but it appeared to hold its own well enough.
  • focusmatt2focusmatt2 Posts: 106
    Perhaps it's a hit or miss kind of thing. It may also have to do with the quality of the diesel being used as fuel.
  • focusmatt2focusmatt2 Posts: 106
    I was running late on my way to work, and was taking a right to enter the freeway, when this dull silver Golf TDI (probably 2000 model) whizzes fast beside me and passes me up. I figured it had to be a GTI but once i noticed the rear badge, i was surprised. But that was all low-end torque ;) By the time we were on the freeway I was far past him, going about 80 while he was struggling to go 65.

    But anyway, I was impressed. I'll say it again... Pumpe-Duse VW engines NEED to come over here! I was reading an Audi AD in a magazine that explains PD technology and it sounds so exciting, like one of those Union Carbide commercials about "the exciting world of atoms".
  • natescapenatescape Posts: 176
    I seriously doubt it was struggling to go 65. I have had my Passat TDI (a 1996, prior generation engine and much heavier) up to 110 and it only uses 3500 RPMs to go 100...

    In fact, this car's strength is its highway cruising and passing power, IMO.
  • focusmatt2focusmatt2 Posts: 106
    Well it was at 65, and of course it can go faster, but the point is, it quickly lost the edge.
  • focusmatt2focusmatt2 Posts: 106
    By the way, your "non-existent Passat V6 TDI" does exist in some slight form ;)

    The make a 2.5 TDI V6 Audi A6 wagon, which is the same platform as the Passat (in the UK). They are reportedly going to offer this engine in the Passat, too.
  • twig93twig93 Posts: 38
    How do you know the car was struggling to go 65? Perhaps it was the driver who decided to drop back.
  • natescapenatescape Posts: 176
    They won't bring the v6 TDI to the US. We get the weakest TDI engine, and we don't get it in the Passat. It's too bad. In fact, MOST manufacturers make diesels to be sold in Europe. Sadly, Mercedes is making a twin-turbo diesel M-Class in the US to be shipped to Europe. Makes me wanna cry. ;)

    The TDI's strength isn't 0->60. It's not a drag racer. Its strength is 40->90. I'm guessing the other drive laid off, not petered out.
This discussion has been closed.