Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options

Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?

1606163656684

Comments

  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    No problem. They'll be "program cars," "executive cars," "demonstrators," "Toyota corporation cars," and on. They'll come up with a label to make them good. And they'll show the CarFax "proving" that the cars are perfect as far as their history.
    I see no problems with it. If buyer is stupid, than he or she will buy a "label" instead of car. Smart buyer understands that cars could be new or used, woman can't be slightly pregnant, car can't be new and slightly used :shades:
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    What does this have to do with "greed"?

    Customers want to take advantage of this program. They trade in their clunker, the Toyota dealer submits the paperwork and doesn't get paid in a timely fashion.

    That makes them "greedy"?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    The last report I read summarizing sales for the first 1.5 Billion $ said Toyota had benefited most; earlier GM had benefited most.

    The dealers are doing what is predictable: they are making up for the slow times some brands had after November when the g'ment announced two companies might go bankrupt and people quit buying those brands. Sales for many other dealers in parts of the country have been very slow. There's an opportunity to hold prices up to gain more profit because customers see only the $3500/$4500 of OPM (other people's money) being paid on their behalf.

    The sad part is this $3 billion will probablly do more than the approximately 1/3 of the $900 billion pork bill that was actually stimulus in stimulating the economy. This is the kind of program that should have been passed by congress in January to stimulate instead of the mess they passed. This is direct money. Although it covers purchase of cars built in other countries outside North America, it still goes to salespeople ( a little bit) and to the other workers in the food chain involved in selling, hauling, and dismantling the clunkers. And part of it does go to auto assemblers of the whole car and the people making lots of parts in little shops around the country which go into those cars build in North America. Thus there is a lot of stimulation of the economy going on--much better than paying researchers to learn more about Pelosi's favorite mouse (not Mickey).

    The negative is that some clunkers driven by people who don't own their car and don't hold the titles to make a quick trade will still be on the road. Some of those people may not have kept insurance on their car. I picture them as the hardworking folks at low-paying jobs who are barely getting by--a _new car_ payment is often out of the question. If clunker cash had been available for buying a more efficient used car, there might have been help for them in the program.

    But those people's cars may be driven more and pollute more than the ones traded in by the relatively well off folk who have been able to take advantage of the program. Kdhyspyder said early in this discussion that most people buying were cash buyers, which I found hard to believe. However clearly he was right.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Maybe the Obama admin. can transfer some of the FEMA bureaucrats over to help process the paperwork. :( Since the FEMA folks haven't been able to get thru the red-tape to distribute the money Congress appropriated in 2005 for Hurricane Katrina rebuilding, they may have better luck getting these checks out to the dealers in < 4 years. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Don't you think pushing 450 clunker deals into the system is just a bit greedy? Even 100 per dealer would be about 3 times what the program is designed for. I understand selling while the opportunity exists. In the case of dealing with the government, there is a big risk factor. How many dealerships can afford to lose that kind of money?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Judging from my two doctor friends that have a heck of a time getting paid by Medicare, I would say there are going to be some dealers left out in the cold. According to kdhspyder his dealership has gotten all their money in a timely fashion, so it can happen.
  • 100chuck100chuck Member Posts: 149
    So are you saying Dealers should not sale to customers who want to purchase cars? If they have a back log of 450 sells then they must be doing something right to satisfy their customers.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    More power to any dealer who had the ability to hustle for the business and more power to any car buyer who had the hustle to take advantage of C4C.

    It's all about business with a capital B. People who were a day late and a dollar short just need to ramp it up next time IMO.

    As for those who got kicked out of eligibility---well that's a legitimate gripe, no question!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    A customer will not be satisfied until they have assurance they are free of that $4500 voucher hanging over their heads. That goes for both the consumer and the dealer. That means the Feds have not even paid off the first Billion that was used up before the 1st of August. So much for a 10 day turnaround.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Its a 10 day from when the application is accepted. If they application was not accepted then the 10 days hasn't started yet.

    A guy at one one of my other forums who is extremely against C4C and has been raging against it for months went and took some pictures at some local dealerships.

    He wanted to show what good cars were being destroyed at the CARS program.

    I had to call him out because a third of the cars he claimed were being Clunked wouldn't qualify as clunkers. They were either too old, one was a VW Thing, or got too good of gas mileage, a last gen Saab 9-3 for example, and the dealer could not use them as Clunkers.

    I called him out because I thought he was being deceptive. He has stretched the truth before when trying to prove his point so I wouldn't put it past him.

    He swears up and down that all the cars he took pictures of were marked as clunkers and even went so far as to ask some of the people working there if they were clunkers.

    He says those pictures were from five different dealerships.

    Now if even a quarter of the dealerships are being that stupid to try and clunk cars that absolutely don't qualify no wonder the system is all screwed up. Its pretty simple of the vehicle doesn't get 18 or less combined it is not eligible at all.

    I still don't know for sure if all those cars he took pictures of were really clunkers. Most of them still had plates on them and very few had any writing that said CLUNKER on the windows.
  • 100chuck100chuck Member Posts: 149
    Well I have 600 miles on my new car and I leaving Wednesday on vacation which will add another 1600 miles, damn I didn't know I wasn't satisfied thanks for letting me know :)
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Now if even a quarter of the dealerships are being that stupid to try and clunk cars that absolutely don't qualify no wonder the system is all screwed up. Its pretty simple of the vehicle doesn't get 18 or less combined it is not eligible at all.


    Deceptive dealer practices? Or idiotic customers easily manipulated?
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    We are hearing that quite a few dealers in this area have stopped doing C4C deals.


    I know a few dealers around the NE are stopping the program also.... they just have too money riding on it.... And the people we are getting these last few days are bottom feeders, not all of them but most are. It just takes twice the amount of time. Ya know what kills me is no one seems to be bringing the vehicles either... Looking forward to September... The program may be over by than ;)

    GP
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    The funny thing to me is that the guy thinks that a VW Thing is too good to clunk. I had to borrow one once. If you drove it two feet out of the showroom and seized the engine that would be a good thing. it would spare you driving it.

    My SIL and her family did a C4C with their old, maybe 1994, Exploder. It was the very definition of a clunker. Their 25 year old daughter had it finishing up her masters. She now has a new Fit and a $200 a month payment.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Nobody said the VW Thing was too good to clunk. But it's too old--the last ones sold in the US were 1978 models--and too fuel-efficient to qualify, so anyone who does their homework should know that it is not eligible. Also, the handful that have survived have been sort of adopted as collector's items, just like the Type 2 microbus.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Oh, I caught that part.

    The Thing probably got too good mileage as well.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Nothing to do with greed. Just business. That must be a HUGE volume Toyota store. Some small stores may do zero clunker deals.

    Some stores in my area have stopped now.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Its a Toyota Dealer in Orange County yeah I bet they do huge, huge volume.

    I was trying to find out which Toyota dealer but Orange Country seems to have a couple and of course Gagrice never bothers to cite what he posts...
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    until you turned on the gas heater! :surprise:
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    We are looking to analyze the various ways dealerships are writing up sales/term sheets on new cars when cash for clunkers are involved. If you are willing to talk with us and potentially allow us to look at your paperwork (personal info blacked out,of course), please email dgreene@edmunds.com.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I'll bet it's Longo. They aren't in Orange County but they are, I think the biggest volume dealer anywhere.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The biggest volume dealer for Rover was Encino Land Rover but I think they got passed by Paramus a couple of years ago.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A clean "Thing" can bring $15000 these days. All the rage as "beach buggies".
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Oh, I am sorry to hear that....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    A clean "Thing" can bring $15000 these days

    . . . assuming you happen to have one of the six rust-free ones on the planet. . .
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It was in the news so I figured you had already read it. I do italicize all stories I copy and paste. Most I include the link if they are not identified by writer's name. So just for you here is the paragraph and the link to the whole story.

    David Wilson, a Toyota dealer in Orange County, Calif., told Automotive News that he has been paid for only three of 92 claims he submitted before Aug. 2, leaving him on the hook for about $374,000. In total, he has 450 unpaid claims filed for $1.9 million.

    Rest of the story
  • mvs1mvs1 Member Posts: 462
    Now basic math here, but let's say this dealer has sufficient credit available to write these deals (which I would be amazed if they did not have this in place) $1.9M at 6% interest over say 60 days to get paid costs then $19K.

    Banks seem to be in a good position to profit off this program as well.
  • mikemartinmikemartin Member Posts: 205
    I told everyone here that new car prices would go up, even people with a qualifying clunker would see no benefit, under CFC.

    You could have gotten a better deal without a clunker of this legislation months ago.

    Dealerships are the ultimate scumbags.

    No worries, though - when new car sales absolutely plunge again, and they will - take that to the bank and slam the vault shut - the new car deals will be bigger and better than ever.

    Anyone absolutely not having to buy now would be foolish not to wait. :shades:
  • luvthesunincaluvthesuninca Member Posts: 17
    I had been planning on buying right before CFC. I was researching and then boom! CFC! And dealers have had no incentive to give me a deal. I was looking at the Prius and also the MINI Cooper.

    Do you think prices will plunge again after CFC? I assumed they would just be low in inventory.

    Do we know when CFC will end?

    Thanks!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The popular cash-for-clunkers program is slashing donations to charities that rely on gifts of cars to fund social programs, Reuters reported today, citing charity officials."

    'Clunkers' Program Costing Wounded Vets, Other Needy People Millions in Aid (Green Car Advisor)
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    This is not a free advertising forum. Try craigslist.
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    Do you think prices will plunge again after CFC? I assumed they would just be low in inventory.
    YES!!!! Prices will be way below. Don't worry about inventory 2010 is coming:-) Smart shoppers are waiting :)
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    True. I see plenty of cars on Philly streets that should be "clunked" for the owner's safety and the safety of others on the road. Trouble is, these car owners are either too poor or have too poor credit to take advantage of this program.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Dealerships are the ultimate scumbags.

    Ouch, pretty harsh, no?

    It's been a buyer's market for years, with the exception of a very select few hot models.

    Dealers have been selling new cars at basically zero profit for a decade or so.

    Now that supply is short, the supply/demand curve shifts in their favor, for the first time in ... decades? And you conclude they are scumbags?

    If you worked at a dealership, would you continue to sell cars at invoice, and lose more money, even when you're running out of cars to sell?

    That's just nuts.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Trouble is, these car owners are either too poor or have too poor credit to take advantage of this program.

    I wouldn't be too sure they're owners. :) And I might question how many really are registered and insured. I know there used to be a black-market in Phily for registration tags which were stolen from legitimate license plates (license plate cut with metal snips).
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The car-shopping Web site said activity fell 15% last week from the late July peak and warned purchase intent will return to levels seen before the launch of the program. Purchase intent is seen as a leading indicator of sales to come in the following 90 days, according to Edmunds.com.

    "Now that there is plenty of money in the program and the most eager shoppers have already participated, the sense of urgency is gone, and the pace of intent decline is accelerating," said Edmunds.com Chief Executive Jeremy Anwyl. " Inventories are getting lean and prices are climbing, giving consumers reasons to sit back."

    Edmunds.com: Sales Activity From 'Clunkers' Is Fading Fast (CNN Money)

    Hmm, demand is down ... so what does GM do?

    GM to boost output due to clunkers incentives (Yahoo)

    Must be fun being an auto prognosticator at the automakers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They'll flood the car lots as soon as the program expires.

    C4C did allow factory orders, though.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Used to be? There still IS a black market for registration tags. Placing the sticker in the upper left or right corner of the license plate with a heavy chrome-plated brass frame secured with tamper-proof fasteners is the best defense against this mischief. Some people keep their stickers inside the car, but that risks a stop by police. For a brief time, Philadelphia had different registration stickers than the remainder of Pennsylvania. Instead of the 1" x 1 1/4" sticker for the license plate, it was a 3" square yellow sticker that went in the back window. There were many problems with these stickers. The sun would fade them, the adhesive would lose its stickiness and it would fall off. Not to mention the threat of "geographic profiling" by suburban police departments with nothing better to do than scarf donuts and harass city folk.
  • 100chuck100chuck Member Posts: 149
    Don't you also get a paper registration form with your tag ?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    You aren't going to get a deal on a Prius or a MINI Cooper no matter when you buy. Those cars are always hot and rarely have incentives. When gas prices dropped off a lot I think Toyota put some finance incentives on the Prius but that is it. Sometimes BMW has lease specials on the MINI but the resale value is so good on a MINI, I sold mine for 4,000 less then what I paid for it including the sales tax 2 years and 30,000 miles later you can't lease for less then that, that leasing is usually not a good idea.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Prius prices might start to get soft because gas prices are so low. MINI? Forget it--you can't get a really good deal on one of those, even used.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Gas prices will have to fall a whole lot more before Prius prices go soft.

    You gotta figure Toyota is just about sold out of them now and gas around here is still in the upper two dollar range.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,586
    They've had a $750 dealer cash incentive on MINIs for a couple of months... Some of them have actually been passing it on to the customers... :surprise:

    Used MINIs are like late-model used Hondas.... rarely a good buy..

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well okay.....I PREDICT :surprise:

    Prius prices will start to fall. Not bargain basement you understand, but the "take it or leave it" days are soon to be over IMO.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    That Orange County dealer can't be Longo, it is owned by Penske Automotive.

    But there are big Toyota dealers all over Orange County - what's that huge one right by the 405 near where it joins up with the 5?

    In other fun...

    Toyota passes GM as most-popular clunkers buy

    August 17, 2009 - 12:49 pm ET

    Toyota Motor Corp. has overtaken General Motors Co. as the top manufacturer of new vehicles purchased under the U.S. cash-for-clunkers program.

    Toyota made 18.9 percent of all new vehicles whose clunkers deals had been submitted, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said in its second report on the incentive. GM accounted for 17.6 percent as of Friday, down from 18.7 percent on Aug. 5, when the initial tally was released.

    The Toyota Corolla remained the top new car purchased. The Honda Civic passed the front-wheel-drive Ford Focus as No. 2. The No. 9 Nissan Versa and No. 10 four-wheel-drive Honda CR-V bumped out the Chevrolet Cobalt and inventory-depleted Dodge Caliber in the top 10.

    As of Friday, dealers had submitted 358,851 deals for the clunkers initiative, which gives consumers vouchers of up to $4,500 for trading in gas guzzlers for new vehicles with better fuel economy. Those deals were worth about $1.5 billion in voucher reimbursements, or half the $3 billion in U.S. funds allocated for the incentive.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20090817/ANA05/908179988/1078/ANA02
    (registration link)

    Some Toyota dealers around here now look quite seriously like they are going out of business. Just a handful of vehicles on the lot, all big trucks. If you pull up the article, it has a nifty little chart showing all the stats. It must be some comfort to Toyota to know that Camry is the #4 most purchased car in a C4C deal, while there no other midsize sedans in the top 10 at all.

    And the won't-be-missed Explorer 4WD is the most clunked model of all, just as it was at the start of the program.

    Interestingly, the Big 6 all fall pretty much in their order in the overall market for sales, except #5 which goes to Chrysler. Nissan, which handily outdoes Chrysler in sales the rest of the time, isn't in the top 5 for makers of vehicles purchased in a C4C deal.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yes. You get the paper form of course. I was referring to the sticker on the license plate. Some people keep the sticker with them rather than placing it on the plate to combat thieves with tin snips , but a cop may stop you thinking your car isn't registered. Drive around Philly and you'll see a lot of cornerless license plates. To keep thieves from peeling your sticker, score it a couple times with an X-acto knife so it would come up in pieces and be useless to the thief.
  • tj6968tj6968 Member Posts: 23
    Toyota is in some trouble. They outgrew their business model and tried to adapt and change it. Unfortunately, they adapted a terrible model that will help to run them into the ground just like GM. It will be interesting to see where they end up...
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Illinois has solved that problem.Our stickers have the same number as the license plate.If someone bothers to look,they can spot a stolen sticker.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm surprised Nissan isn't doing better given they have the Versa, Sentra, Rogue, and Cube to offer to C4C shoppers.

    If you think about it, a C4C deal on one of those $9995 Versas gives you the biggest discount, nearly 50% off. Imagine paying $5500 for a new car.

    I realize A/C costs extra, but add that and you're still near $6 grand, even at retail.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I've noticed that some manufacturers really embraced C4C, some jumped on late and some have acted like it doesn't exist.

    Once again Ford and Hyundai, who seem to be calling everything right these days, jumped right on it.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Sign In or Register to comment.