Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

denniss

At a local Ford dealer, about a year ago.

I was trading in a Chrysler Concorde, worth maybe $8500. I wasn't asking for more than wholesale. The car was in good shape...I had it detailed before bringing it in, so it looked very nice.

I was looking at a Ford Escape, and found the one I liked.

After running through the BS of back and forth to the sales manager, I shook hands on a deal.

When the contract got brought out, I noticed an entry in the top of the form for $6800. I asked what it was, and where was the $8500 for the trade? (agreed on price).

They looked at me, and my wife, and pulled back the paperwork.

I'm not real bright, and asked if they were going to correct the sales aggreement. It then dawned on me that I was well and truly being ripped off, and that they had NO INTENTION of doing just that.

Soooo. Now what? Stony embarrased silence from them, swift anger from my wife and I. Outright fraud.

No, they did not correct the paperwork, and said "well, that changes everything."

Sure it did. It would have taken my payments down about $30 a month.

This is the only known instance of completely illegal activity on the part of ANY car dealer to me. I am 48, and have purchased at LEAST a dozen new cars in my lifetime.

To my regret, I did not contact the state attorney generals office. I should have. As it was, I had no proof that we had agreed to the higher value for the trade.

It would be rather easy to prove fraud against this dealership...just get copies of all of the sales contracts, and call up the customers one by one, and ask THEM how much they got for their trade! It wouldn't surprise me in the least if many, many people have been ripped off in this fashion.

rroyce10

....... Did they attempt to change the paper work.? ..

              Maybe you were shown a "trade allowance" .. thats why you should always trade on a *difference* figure, ya know, like your vehicle and X amount of bucks ...................

                              Terry.

imidazol97

If it has to be that complicated to explain the fraud, it should be easier for the dealer to just do it right and in a way that doesn't attempt to cheat the customer.

That God my dealers have always been straight from the representation of tradein value to the agreed upon cost of the new car.

bowke28

im wondering also if the $8500 was an over-allowance. the $6800 could have simply been an ACV entry for the finance office.

the other $1700 was probably given to you out of the price of the new one.

the pulling back of the papers was probably a green-pea salesman that didnt know what to do.

im not saying you are wrong...just offering a logical alternative.

dbgindy

That was my first thought as well but i think denniss would have caught that and he said his payments would have gone up.....

Duncan

bowke28

true. i missed that part.

denniss

I wanted a payment around $400 a month, they kept saying it couldn't be done.

I have financed many different vehicles, and I was pretty sure it could be. I used to teach a college level statistics class, and frankly, I am better than any salesman I ever met in crunching the numbers.

This works quite well, and to my advantage.

It was clear from the reaction of the salesman and sales manager that this was a clear attempt to rip off my wife and I, to the tune of $1700. It wasn't a "mistake" ... other than for them to get caught.

I specifically asked if this number was supposed to represent the trade in value of my car. I was told yes. It was AFTER this comment that I told them that I thought we had agreed to $8500 for the trade. We had, and they were had, and the whole deal collapsed at that point.

The paperwork they brought out indicated payments of $435.00. I had worked out in my head payments quite close to the $400 a month I was comfortable with...and was more than a little surprised to see the MUCH higher (9%) payment.

I would never post in this forum unless I was solidy and positively sure that there was some dealer funny business going on. I am careful enough, even with that, to not identify the Ford dealership involved, or the salesman's name.

Rest assured that this was a blatant attempt to cheat my wife and I out of $1700. Stunningly so. SO blatant, in fact, that it almost sailed through.

As it stands, we purchased a new PT Turbo Cruiser, and are very pleased with it. With my brother in law working at the local Chrysler assembly plant, our price was 7% below invoice. So, we got a better car, with much better performance, for $2000 less.

Go figure.

Oh, this was NOT a green-pea salesman. He was as slick as they come, and had been at it for over a dozen years. I never did feel like I could trust him...and had alarm bells going off right away.

driftracer

guccigirl04

NEVER dare to go to this dealership! it would be like feeding yourself to the wolves!

my husband and i had a terrible experience from them. they ripped us off BIG time!

we paid $8,000 more for a 2003 nissan sentra gxe a/t. had an apr of 22% from their own finacing co. we already gave them a $6,000 at that and our credit scores were already >670. good thing we have an account with a credit union so we had it refinanced after 3 gruelling months and had the interest down to 6%. (thank God!)

they did start with the infamous 4 sq worksheet. we tried bargaining for a lower monthly pmt bec. we told them we couldn't afford to pay much, but it didn't stop them for cold bloodedly victimizing us. the salesman who sold us the car even had the gall to tell us to give him a great feedback.

i guess my husband and i had the WORST car dealer experience. i hope no one would have to go through what we had. it was always a nightmare going there to have the regular maintenance. the past keeps coming back.

at least now, since we've learned our lesson the hard way with these salesmen, we'll just buy our next car through the internet, it's safer and easier.

dbgindy

2 Quick questions. At the first sign of being uncomfortable why didn't you just leave? Second question is when at signing it showed 22% why didn't you stop right there?
 Just curious..........

Duncan

driftracer

people talk about how badly they were treated, how they were ripped off, etc, but they STILL bought the car from these folks!

Why not prearrange your financing through your credit union, do some research here in Edmunds to figure out a good price, and walk into the place with everything already handled?

You simply say, "I want a (insert car) in (insert color) with (insert options). Edmunds True Market Value says I should pay $xx,xxx - do we have a deal?

If they want to play games, leave - you've wasted 10 minutes of your time!!

steine13

Can you explain to us, using simple words, why you rewarded a sleazy dealer with thousands of dollars? Aren't there any better ones in the area?
Complaining on an internet board is not going to make a difference. Buying elsewhere might.
-Mathias

boomer1b

Did you owe $8000 more on your trade than it was worth? Was your "trade" a leased car that you owed $8000 in remaining lease payments ?
Was the 22% interest rate the best available because you have a sub-par credit history ?

Please let us know. Then we can help you.......

exb0

Good advice Drift, except for the Edmunds True Market Value part. Based on my experience dealers love Edmunds TMV both for new cars and the used trade-in values. You can do much better than TMV by haggling a little. My last purchase was $2000 below TMV. The salesman kept on saying: “Why are you being so stubborn, even Edmunds says that MSRP is a good price for this car” pointing to Edmunds TMV. The only time you should use the TMV if you want a quick and stress less transaction, and you are unwilling or unable to negotiate.

Sorry Edmunds, I am just stating my opinion.

steine13

...might leave some $ on the table, but is leaps and bounds better than the pain apparently endured by guccigirl.

I think that's what drift was suggesting.
It's not perfect, but at least noone gets hurt.

-Mathias

imidazol97

high, in my past experiences.

But I agree with driftracer about getting your ducks line up in advance. Know the car's value. Know your cars value and what's owed (wonder why dealers love leasing setups so much..., does it obscure the real obligation so people don't realize how little they own their tradein which makes them victims for the next car salesman's pencil work)

Anything makes you uneasy, leave. I have read these (tirades) the last few days from both sides and realizaed I often left the other dealers I shopped because I didn't feel good with something they were pulling.

Great advice from Drift. If uncomfortable, leave. You can always figure it out by asking someone else and then go back if you feel that dealer still has something positive to offer you.

black_tulip

<<people talk about how badly they were treated, how they were ripped off, etc, but they STILL bought the car from these folks!>>

Because it is not easy for most of us, who have been brought up in a certain manner, to be rude and say NO directly to somebody's face, especially when that somebody is claiming that we are "taking the food off his baby's mouth".

I know it because I have done it(ironically at a Nissan dealer as well) but I am wiser now. Point is, unscrupulous dealers will do everything psychologically to prevent you from saying NO and leaving. It is not easy and certainly not as black and white as you guys seem to think it is. Usually a person has to go through this experience at least once before becoming wiser.

Some tricks they practised on me:

- "I bet you don't have any credit or cash to buy this car" --designed to appeal to the shopper's pride

- "If I don't sell this car today, I will be fired and my family will starve" -- designed to arouse shopper's pity
etc.

I am sure that there are many psychological ploys that I am not aware of.

isellhondas

WHY in the world would anybody put up with any of this?

I was also brought up not to be rude but my parents also taught me not to be victimized.

I simply DO NOT understand WHY someone whould STILL buy a car from a store like that and then come here to tell of their bad experiences???

bobotheclown

I see the posting of these stories as being a way for people to vent. Similar to group therapy, where every one complains/expresses themselve and receives support from people that share similar stories/experieces.

Shouldn't knock these people for their posts even though they could have changed the outcome of their experiences. It's like knocking a support group for alcoholics.

bobst

Maybe we tend to spend less time preparing to do the things we hate to do, even if they are necessary.

If we look forward to doing something, like going on a vacation, we research it in great detail.

If a person hates the car buying experience, they would not enjoy researching it in detail before going to a car dealer. When they finally need a new car, they just want to get it done as quickly as possible. Then the vultures tear them apart.

When we bought our new car last October, it was very easy. We made an offer, they accepted (after a little stalling), we gave them a check, and drove the car home.

At the other table, however, there was an elderly couple grinding the dealer down as low as possible. They were grinding when we first walked in, and they were still grnding when we later walked out. I could tell by their tone of voice that they were thoroughly enjoying the experience. The sales manager seemed exasperated, but I guess he could not resist the opportunity to make a little money. It was pretty funny.

chuck1

I don't understand why people like this just don't walk away. But that being said, I don't know how car sales people like the example at Foothill can possibly look at themselves in the mirror in the morning. Yea, I am familiar with this establishment. They advertise to the "payment buyer" on T. V. Saturday mornings.....

chuck1

Yes, Driftracer, when I see posts about how people are ripped off by dishonest salespeople I will be all over those posts. That is a friendly warning!

bobotheclown

I don't understand how people can find the whole buying experience painful. I find the process fairly simple.

Don't like pushy sales people and the four squares?
Do some research and negotiate via email or phone.

Too lazy to research or negotiate?
Use one of the many buying services avaliable out there.

Don't want to deal with the finance people?
Get pre-approved at your local credit union.

Want to include a trade-in that your upside-down on with your deal?
Learn some patience when dealing with the finance person and read very carefully. Make sure you inform the financial instituion where your first car loan is from the you sold your car the the dealership. That way you won't get charged with a late fee if the dealership is slow paying off the loan. Trust me it happens a lot.

landru2

Glutton for punishment?

You refinanced it after "3 gruelling months" plus you had the "nightmare" of going back there for regular maintenance. I can't imagine much regular maintenance in the first 3 months so I assume you kept going back.

Exactly what would it have taken to keep you from giving these guys your business?

isellhondas

How can we comment on a dealership we know nothing about?

I'm from L.A. and I can tell you that is a miserable marketplace. Still, there are good stores down there and the best way to find one is through a referral.

Ask your friends and neighbors how they were treated.

gregoryc1

You are not marrying the person. You are purchasing a vehicle.

guccigirl04

we were too ignorant to know we're being handed a bad deal. something came up which forced us to buy a car at once so no research was done beforehand.

we thought at that time that we deserved the 22% apr even if we have scores >670 since our credit history was just 1 year then (we just moved to US recently).

when i surfed the internet several weeks later, that's when i found out we let ourselves get fooled.

and it would still be years that we will pay the price for our ignorance.

i feel bad about what happened but at least the mitigating factor is, it has taught us a valuable lesson ----- research, research, research.

as they say, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.

bowke28

if you have only been in the credit systems for 1 year, then they werent gouging you. making a couple points? maybe...but there is only 1 thing worse on your credit report than not paying bills...

and thats a lack of history.

kyfdx

See? You learned something.. That is worth a lot, and will save you money for years to come. Every experience has a silver lining.

driftracer

I keep thinking, though, that 10 minutes on the internet checking invoice prices and current incentives, plus a 5 minute call to your bank or credit union could have given you the going rate on a loan through them...

15 minutes could have saved you thousands of dollars, it's likely. Please take that 15 minutes the next time you're car shopping.

guccigirl04

we ended up buying from a sleazy dealer because we thought even with our fair fico scores we still won't be able to get approved for a good auto loan since we only have 1 year of credit history to speak of.

when we saw foothill nissan, they advertised themselves as being able to work out anything for anyone.

and we were gullible enough to buy it (pun intended).

guccigirl04

thanks.

actually i'm not just taking 15 minutes this time. that's why i ended up posting on this board.

guccigirl04

to anyone who thinks i am complaining...i'm not.

it's more of i wanted to warn people in case they get into the same situation as we did. it's hard when you just arrived in the country and you don't know yet the ins and outs of the trade.

now, we're learning...i guess it all takes time. i appreciate all your thoughts and suggestions. thanks.

bowke28

flaming posts about a specific dealer are not allowed, however, and do no good.

just info. for future reference.

guccigirl04

we come here not only to vent but to share our experiences so that we can prevent some people from making the same mistakes we had.

if we were ignorant enough to let foothill nissan bleed us to death, at least, somehow we could raise a red flag and stop someone from being victimized in the future in case he/she would come across the post.

being fooled is painful but knowing that someone could have been spared from something unpleasant if only you advised them is a worse pain.

kyfdx

"flaming posts about a specific dealer are not allowed"

Wrong.. they are allowed, as long as you don't name the salesman.. YOU might not like them, but there is nothing in the user agreement that prohibits negative opinions about ANY dealer.

regards,
kyfdx

guccigirl04

what i meant was we had it refinanced after "3 gruelling months" of paying at 22%.

and i am having nightmares whenever we go back there to have the regular scheduled maintenance for the past 2 years.

they say it's better to have your maintenance at the dealership where you bought your car. or we again mistaken and misled???

bowke28

naming dealerships in the way you did is unnecessary.

and we dont keep people from doing what you did by telling them to stay away from a dealer. we help them to learn what they did wrong, and teach them how to avoid ALL dealers like that.

again, naming a specific dealer is useless.

imagine, if you will, if someone comes to my dealership, and has a bad experience with another salesperson. then they fire up the boards about how bad we are.

is that fair to me? is that fair to the people in the service dept.? is that fair to other salespeople that had absolutely nothing to do with your deal?

no.

fact is, you made a mistake and got taken advantage of. simply keeping people from that dealer will not fix the problem.

they are now using the "tainted" money you gave them to advertise to others, because YOU did not learn.

im not saying the people were angels...far from it...i just imagine myself in the position of the good salesman at that store.

kyfdx

Sure it will... In fact, that is what most salespeople here on Edmunds recommend.. If dealers are sleazy, vote with your feet.. If they get a deservedly bad reputation, so much the better.. If it was truly a one-time thing, then others that had good experiences there will say so... Well.. I'm listening.. I don't hear anyone.....

guccigirl04

i respect your opinion bowke28 and won't argue your point since you have your own interest to protect and we have our own sentiments.

it all boils down to personal judgment. i hope people will be wiser than we were the first time.

bowke28

c'mon...you know better. people dont post positive things here...go on over to the "considerate..." board. heck, you could read the whole board in about 15 minutes.

the fact is, we need to educate people to keep this from happening. just saying "ABC nissan is a bunch of crooks" is useless.

isellhondas

Although I do believe gucci's story I do think it should be against the rules to name a dealer by name.

Posts like that can come from the competition across the street or from a disgruntled ex-employee with an ax to grind.

Or the story from the other side may be dramatically different. A side we will never hear.

dunkmydonut

I know alot of dealers that are theives. I would tell anyone I know to avoid them. That's what friends do. If the policy here is to keep these tactics quiet, then this whole thread is questionable.

kyfdx

"Posts like that can come from the competition across the street or from a disgruntled ex-employee with an ax to grind."

These are as easy to spot as the ones that come from salespeople posing as buyers, who tell you "what a great deal they got at XYZ Motors and come on in and see Don."

I see no problems outing bad dealers... I don't take everything I hear as gospel, and neither do most people, but as guccigirl said.. Knowledge is Power.

regards,
kyfdx

Kirstie_H

people dont post positive things here...

Wrong-o, though you might be convinced of that if you spend most of your time in only a few topics on the Smart Shopper board.

On thd off chance that you were to happen to visit the Prices Paid board, you'd see that the vast majority of the posts refer to positive purchasing experiences. And *gasp* we allow dealership names to be mentioned there as well.

We encourage postings about both positive & negative experiences - how do you think it would be perceived if we had a rule that members can ONLY mention a dealership name if they're going to say something nice? Look a little biased, wouldn't it?

Thus, we've chosen to let members read 'n weed - to make their own decisions.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host
PS - we can usually spot "plants" a mile away.

guccigirl04

to see is to believe...go check for yourself. just act uninformed and you'll soon be in our shoes.

anyway, that's why it would always be up to the reader to discern which posts to heed and which ones to trash away.

the important thing is, the info is available.

i for one, would rather see posts which specifically name dealers that are nice to work with.

so, can someone recommend some good honda dealers in the LA area? what were your experience with them?

driftracer

dealership names at all, as long as we can post consumer's names when the came into the store, had bad credit, or were just total jerks.

I see absolutely no difference.

Kirstie_H

You can't. Just as folks can't post salespeople's names.

That is, and will remain the policy in Town Hall. That also ends the discussion of Town Hall policy on the boards. Further questions regarding this policy should be handled via e-mail or using the "help" link at the top.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

bowke28

i understand, and i stand corrected on the rule thing.

however...

blowing up the board saying things like "they are crooks" or "dont go to XYZ ford" serve no purpose. buyers should learn how to do this first. that way, a bad salesman cant take advantage of them. they know to walk.

KCRam

What we definitely do not allow is for someone to title a discussion with a dealership name... a discussion like "KCRAM FORD RIPPED ME OFF" would be deleted on sight.

kcram
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