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Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.
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"Additional renovation costs" - yep, a hole big enough to drive a Kenworth through.
Still, no deal, but interesting food for thought.
But NO $8000 trade in deal tho............
2.The dealer gives you a very good deal. He writes it on his business card.
3.You think that you can find a better deal by shopping around using this deal as a starting point.
4.After several days or weeks of shopping, you realize that no dealer in your area can even match the deal.
5.You go back to the first dealer and ask to honor the deal.
6.The dealer agrees.
7.You shake hands, sign some no-legal papers, test drive, remove license plates from your trade, call your wife with good news, and feel tired but happy.
8.Then a floor manager comes to you and says something like this: We are sorry, we made a mistake, we can not honor the deal, our new deal is that – bla, bla, bla.
9.You feel very angry and go to the exit.
10.The manager stops you and offers you a little better deal.
11.You still angry and go the exit.
12.The manager stops you and offers you a little better deal. It is still worse then the original.
13.You think: I just spent days or weeks shopping, I just spent 3 – 4 hours hear, I am very tired, I want to go home in a new car which I already love, my wife already prepared a celebration diner, I do not have any desire to start all over again.
14.You agree with the latest deal.
I understand that a dealer needs to make money, but if a customer has a weak hart, after this kind of experience, he may find himself in very unfortunate situation.
The "smart shopper" took that price and shopped it all over town trying to get an even lower price.
This is what I really dislike about this business. I would never give a customer a price to go shop nor would I ever lowball a customer.
My best advise is to find a store and a salesperson that you feel comfortable with. Arrive at a price that is both a good value for both parties. The best way to do this is through a referral.
It really doesn't have to be a painful process.
In step 9, I did not get at all angry. I just headed for the exit and kept going.
Would I go back to the same dealer? Sure, if they had the car I wanted. I would calculate the OTD price I was willing to pay and, if they accpted my offer, write them a check and drive home in a new car. Car buying can be very easy and simple.
I wouldn't give a store like that my business. Price to me isn't the thing that's most important.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Since then I have gotten the attitude - Why should I let a sleazy dealer keep me from the car I want? If they have the car I want and will part with it for an acceptable amount of money, why should I deny myself the joy of having that car?
I haven't gone back to that dealer because I don't work near there anymore. Who knows - if I walked in there I might have flashbacks of the lowball and get the heebie jeebies and run out.
No one here will say you should deny yourself of the vehicle you want. Your reasons for
wanting that particular car from the sleazy dealer are immaterial- They conduct business a certain way- you still buy the car. Youre rewarding them with your business. Its as simple as that.
apply only when financed through VW at their non-subsidized rates.. but here, the dealer was marking up the interest so that he would end up with a several hundred dollar profit.
Not suggesting there is anything wrong with this practice.. more curious as to whether it is effective...
I just recently moved to WA state from NY on 9/1/04.On 9/11/04 I purchased a 2000 Ford Escort ZX2. On 10/23/04 my room-mate had a accident with the car and rear-ended someone. Next day I took the car into 4 different auto body shop to get estimates. They all seemed to agree my car was missing the reinforcement bar. The reinforcement bar attaches to the cars frame rails and helps absorb collision damages. I called the dealership and they got nasty and hung up on me. I then proceeded to file a complaint with the attorney generals ofc. Which they forwarded to the Dept Of Licensing. The gentleman I been working with there said I would need something in writing stating that that bar was in fact missing. Then they can cite the dealership on 4 violations. I tried to go back to the auto body shops I took it for estimates but they said they couldn't give me anything in writing. I then had to find a auto forensics to inspect the car and get a statement from him saying the bar was missing. He did say the bar was missing due to the fact that the frame rails ripped through the bumper cover and he also said my airbags would of never deployed because the sensors attach to that bar. He also stated my damage would have been minimal if the re-bar would have been there being she was only going 10mph and the car is now 90% totaled.
Another thing that concerns me is the bill of sale:
Per my contract:
A car can be sold without the implied warranty of mechanicability ("as is") if the consumer "waives" or gives up, the warranty. Courts have ruled that the implied warranty is legally waived only if (1) the consumer EXPLICITLY NEGOTIATES and agrees to the fact that the car does not have an implied warranty, and (2) the dealer gives the consumer A STATEMENT OF THE PARTICULAR CHARACTERISTICS of parts of the car which are not being WARRANTED. To waive the implied warranty on a used car the above two requirements must have been met.
Ok as far as requirement # 1 --> Explicitly Negoatiated...The dealer screwed me hard here because the weekend I bought the car it was listed for $5995 (Weekend Special Deal). I talked him down to $5700. I got $295 off the car because he told me that the two front tires needed to be replaced. But on the bill of sale they had the car listed at $7995 and the negioated price at $5700. Down below where implied warranty is.."NONE. IMPLIED WARRANTY NEGOTIATED AWAY WITH DISCOUNT FROM LISTED PRICE" They have me at a discount of $2295 when it was really only $295.
Requirement # 2. the statement of charactisics that are not being under warranty. The only thing the salesperson said is the the front tires needed to be replaced. Other than that I did not get any statements. The buyers guide said nothing accept on back a list of some major defects that may occur in used cars.
Only thing I waived was the extended service warranty. They wanted an additional $1200 and I didn't have the money for that.
Can I get them for misrepresentation??? I did not get $2000 off this car. For Selling me a unsafe car?? Any advise of what I can do?? The lemon laws apply only to new cars.
I know nothing about this "reinforcement bar". I guess it's possible the car somehow left the factory without one or possibly the car had been involved in some kind of a frontal collision before you bought it. The dealer who sold it to you probably had no idea something was missing.
To me, anyway, this doesn't sound like something I would want to pay a lawyer big bucks to get involved in but the others here may have different ideas. And, no, Lemon Laws have nothing to do with this. Hopefully, your car will get repaired properly and this missing bar can be put in place.
FIRST - that car, even with only 50,000 miles and in pristine shape (read: perfect) is only worth a retail book value of $5,400 - given that it's a 5 year old Ford Escort ZX2 and not a Ferrari, it's not worth "book" - that car has a real money retail value of around $4,500 (with 50k miles, deduct if higher). No, they didn't rip you off, you didn't do ANY research as to what the car was worth, or you wouldn't have paid too much for it. A dealership is in the business to make a profit - if you pay more than than vehicle is worth, that's profit, and profit isn't wrong.
Just like if you were selling a car privately, it would be your job to make as much as possible on it, not give it away. They asked $3k more than the car is worth, knowing they'll probably discount it or use that extra "money" for over-allowance if someone is buried in their trade.
The missing reinforcement bar - I'm ASE-certified and have looked under the front of an Escort on many occasions and can't recall some major reinforcement bar on that car. Second rule in car shopping is to take the prospective vehicle to a mechanic for inspection - this could have been discovered, if in fact this bar was actually missing.
THIRD - you called a dealership, without all the facts, and probably threatened to sue them - can you blame them for hanging up on you? You didn't indicate who it was you talked with, but unless you talked to the GM, you were wasting your time. Since you've already coontacted the AG's office, you can forget any cooperation on the part of the dealership -
This is not a lemon law or Magnusson-Moss (breach of warranty) issue, as it doesn't pertain to repetitive mechanical defects.
I'm not trying to be mean here, but some research on the car and an inspection could have saved you on two on the issues here, and your jumping into this with phone calls and the AG shut down any possibility of a resolution within the next 2 years.
It may very well be the case that this vehicle was in a previous front end accident and that this was part was never put back on, either intentionally or in error. So essentially there really was no bumper on this car - just the plastic cover - reducing the crashworthiness of the car. Keep in mind though, these bumpers are only required to withstand collisions of up to 2.5 mph.
I hope your roommate is OK. Good luck proceeding with this.
of the car?
Is it time for a CarFax check?
If it were not repaired
correctly after a previous accident, does
the previous owner/shop have culpability
as to value due to excess damage due
to their negligence? Driftracer????
Is a missing reinforcement bar inside the
bumper cover something that a mechanic
would check for during a presale check?
Of course, if the mechanic found damage
signs from an earlier accident they might have
looked carefully at everything...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The wheat is this: 4 body shops agree -- or so we are told -- that a structural piece of the body is missing. If that's not true, than there is nothing to discuss.
If that IS true, then the dealer sold an inherently unsafe car. No excuse for that, they're in business to make money, agreed, but they have to know what they are selling.
You can bet your boots that if I had a used-car dealership [and the day may come :-) ] I wouldn't go with a fine-tooth comb through every car before I sell it....
... but I would not pay money\for a car, even a 50k Escort, without looking it over on a lift. I mean, if you're in the biz, aren't you supposed to know what you're doing? Don't you want to know about previous repairs, so you don't overpay? Even if you take in a dozen cars wholesale for one price, don't you look them over?
And drift, if that car had been taken to a mechanic, I doubt that a missing reinforcement bar would have been noted... call it fifty-fifty. A body shop, yes.
My advice to Nadine is to leave the legal beagles for last, get the facts straight now, and ask under "Any Questions for a Car Dealer" how to proceed. She did just about everything wrong in buying this car, but IF she bought it with a serious safety defect that would be obvious to a pro, I think she might be entitled to a grand o two from that dealer.
Question to the pros: What if the car had been structurally fine but the air bags had been pilfered? Who, if anybody, is on the hook for that?
-Mathias
In a purely legal sense (not an expert), it would seem that if the buyer signed that contract, then they have no recourse.
Further, I would guess that clause is on every used car sales contract that particular dealer writes.
regards,
kyfdx
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If you ever do get your own used car lot, you wouldn't get the chance to put your prospective cars to buy up on a lift. You will be standing at an auction hoping to make a winning bid in the 30 seconds that car is being hawked.
If it's trade in, you won't have the time to carefully inspect a car either.
And, if that bumper reinforcement is, indeed, missing it would be almost impossible to spot unless you were specifically looking for it.
IF this part is missing, it actually doesn't mean much, since as pointed out previously, the bumpers are only certified for 2.5-5 mph. That bumper reinforcement doesn't do squat in a 50 mph front-end collision.
There may be some legal recourse, but hiring a lawyer is the ONLY way to go now, and don't expect to not pay a retainer and work on contingency - the parties that a lawyer would use for a quick resolution have already been offended and have shut their doors.
I don't know about you guys, but we make it VERY clear that an as-is car is just that. In addition to that, one of our techs evaluates the car with our used car reconditioning form and notes everything that the car would need to pass a PA state inspection (I know, that bar may still have been missed). The customer signs that too - so nothing is verbal - like, "it just needs front tires."
No problem. All those cars that run through without special warnings (red light or whatever) are guaranteed to have no major engine or transmission defects *at that time*, and no frame damage repaired. Paint work or hard starting or scratches, you're on your own.
Somehow I think that if you sold cars on Manheim that hat half the bumper missing, you might not be asked back to the magic kingdom...
-Mathias
But maybe not. I don't know the facts with this bumper thing -- how important it is or how unsafe. Let's change it and talk about something that's easy to understand.
Say i buy a used car, no warranty expressed or implied. Two days later I learn that the air bags are missing from the car.
Are you guys telling me the seller does not owe me anything at this point? When I buy a "2000 Ford Escort", does it not go without saying that it has 5 seat belts, two air bags, and doors with side impact protection? Am I not also buying a car that, by law, MUST have its catalyic converter in place? Not necessarily working, but "in place". Right???
Is it not fraud if I sell my 99 Prizm to Joe Blow down the street, but I sold the air bags last week on ebay?
-Mathias
Bear in mind, in this case, this little bar didn't make the difference in whether the car was totalled or not, and couldn't.
This buyer's biggest peeves seem to be that they didn't read the contract properly, didn't research the car's value, and didn' have the car checked out. They paid too much and didn;t get the warranty they thought they should, but those were both choices the buyer made - period.
In normal circumstances, accident or not, the dealer would probably have just taken the car back, nixed the deal, and/or offered the buyer another car. Since that bridge has been burned, though, I can't speak for the dealership.
But, you bring up an interesting point. A car gets traded in or bought at an auction with missing airbags. Of course the airbag warning light has been disconnected so there is no way to know.
A totally honest dealer sells the car not knowing of this situation. A crash happens, the driver has no airbag to protect him and he's killed when an airbag ***might*** have saved him.
Imagine the time lawyers would have with this one?
I think it's time to get back on topic! I know I'm done with this!
Yes I did a carfax on the car and it came back clean.
When I spoke to the dealership. I didn't get nasty with them or threaten them with a lawsuit. I simple asked them why didn't they inform me that the re-bar was missing and that they sold me a unsafe car. The mananger then said I sold you a safe car got nasty and said not to call them back or they will call the police on me and to call a lawyer. I called them once!!! They did call me back after they got a letter from the Dept Of Lic. The guy who called said he was the attorney for the dealership and that wanted to know where the car was and wanted to come and take pictures of it. I was apprehensive and said let me consult with someone first and i'll call you back. I do have a lawyer who is handling my personal injury case. I wanted to either speak to my lawyer or the DOL guy I been dealing with to see if it was ok for them to come to apt complex and take pics. I couldn't get a hold of them so I phoned the dealership back and told them I was uncomfortable with this and to wait until Monday. What did the dealership do come and take pictures anyways after I EXPLICITLY said NO. 45mins later my room-mate said hey there is someone in front of your car taking pictures. He then saw her in the window and left. We went after him to see what the heck he was doing, but he was gone before would could catch up. I called the DOL guy later that week to update him on what I was doing and he confirmed that the dealership did give him copies of pics of the car.
The ZX2 i bought had some modifications done to it. They include: hood with scoup, rear spoiler, side skirts, and rear bumper. Basically body kit stuff. The front bumper did have the factory bumper cover. The dealer said the guy who had the car before me used it as a show car. Now I'm sure you're all familiar with 2fast2furious movie. Well thats sort of what my car looked like. Now a friend from back home in NY brought up a good point about the re-bar. Being I'm learning street racing is pretty big outhere. That the previous owner took the re-bar off to take off some of the weight in the front of the car. Somebody is liable here and I dont think a pre-inspection would have revailed that re-bar was missing..
According to laws here:
RCW 46.37.513
Bumpers.
When any motor vehicle was originally equipped with bumpers or any other collision energy absorption or attenuation system, that system shall be maintained in good operational condition, and no person shall remove or disconnect, and no owner shall cause or knowingly permit the removal or disconnection of, any part of that system except temporarily in order to make repairs, replacements, or adjustments.
I think most of us here probably wouldn't have bought a car that had been "Mickey Moused". I know those modifications would have caused me to take one look and run the other way.
I agree that a mechanical inspection would not have revealed the bar was missing.
The car, with 50k miles, has an NADA retail of $5,400....modified like you've indicated, it's worth about $2,500 to a dealer. Wow...
The car had/has a body kit and major/numerous modifications - you bought a modified car and you expect it not to be modified, especially when it's sold without any type of warranty?
I say you have a long row to hoe (as we say in Texas) on this one.
here's what car looked like to give you better idea of the modicifications
http://www.geocities.com/nadine33ny/zx2.jpg
I totally agree with driftracer. A car with those modifications has most likely suffered a hard, abusive life!
Yes I am wrong for not getting the car inspected prior to sale I made a HUGE MISTAKE and "trusted" the dealers word. The car was safe, mechanically sound and had not been in any accidents. I am wrong on signing the bill of sale when it had the listed price at $7995 and it reflected a discount of $2295. When I had asked him about the listed price (again I trusted them) he not to worry that was orginally what they had wanted for the car and what I was actually paying was the weekend special price. So there went my warranties. Thats why I say they misrepresented the documents to me.
Once again, I'll ask...what is your goal here? If your insurance co. fixes the car, adding the re-bar during the process, what have you lost?
If you happen to like those modifications, great! A lot of people do. Most people, however do not and avoid cars that have been modded.
If the car gets properly repaired and you are happy with it, what harm has been done?
If the air bags are missing, and a main reforcing part of the front bumper is missing, I think there is a legal claim here. An earlier post also said the collision was at only 10mph, and this caused the $6,000 (or something like this) car to be totaled. 4 body shops and a 'forenisc (sp)' inspector stated this (body shops will not put it into writing) was caused by the missing part.
I'm not a lawyer, and do not play one on TV, but I think I would have a legal run at the dealer on this one, especially if the air bags were missing.
The buyer did make several mistakes, did not do some of the 'smart' things more knowledgable people might have done, but there seems to be some smell from the dealer here....
Anyway ..... I read this 3 times, hopefully I read it right .. **On 10/23/04 my room-mate had a accident with the car and --rear-ended someone--** ...
The price has nothing to do with the contract or any warranty, real or implied .. you paid what you paid - and it was bought "As is - where is - nothing promised and nothing owed" .. the bumper situation didn't cause the accident, the driver did .. and we don't know if the airbags are in or not, and without actually seeing the "exact" accident pictures or the police report, we don't know if they would have deployed (if they are actually there) at a low speed impact ... that said, **On 10/23/04 my room-mate had a accident with the car and rear-ended someone** - so the "airbag" and/or reinforcement bar almost becomes meaningless, mostly because the reinforcement bar is only there to protect the front fascia, and lets be honest, they're almost useless except for the nose of the vehicle .....
Me personally, I don't sell that junk, off to the auction it goes .. "Most" of that "Fast and Fungus stuff" usually has a bad history, most of it "looks" nice but gets torn-up at one time or another, fenders are reworked, bumpers, hood replacements, paint, etc etc, and it's no secret, it's a kids car doing kids things and buyers know this unless they have been living in the Ukraine ..... the bottom line too this is, the dealer could end-up eating some/most of this because of selling a vehicle without the airbags ~IF~ they're missing, then he will have to go after the previous owner, but this is because of **On 10/23/04 my room-mate had an accident with the car and --rear-ended someone--** ..
What will probably happen is, the accident will be one singular issue, then the parts will become another issue and an entirely different case, two separate and distinct cases, you and the roommate will have to deal with the accident, thats your responsibility, and the dealer will have to deal with the parts issue - 2 separate entities, and if the airbag is there, then you have nada, zero, less than one, no matter what your attorney tells ya ...... it's kinda like blaming the gun manufacturer instead of Oswald for the assassination of JFK ..l.o.l....
Terry.
Apparently, the airbag sensors don't have to be "hit" to cause the airbags to deploy.
My Dad (83 yrs old), last Sunday, cut in front of a Nissan SUV and was hit at the back passenger wheel area, damaging the rear door, crushing the wheel, rear fender. Both front airbags deployed. We're thinking the sensors activate on motion, not from being crushed. When the Nissan SUV hit the rear wheel, the Buick LeSabre stopped dead in it's tracks, causing the sensors to think that the front of the car was being smashed in. Obviously, if the car was being stopped so quickly, the airbags needed to deploy because a person's body would be propelled forward. Dad is fine but the car is not.
Mark
Glad no one was hurt. What year LeSabre was it?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'd be checking with my usual attorney and I'd check in with the one who advertises often for his group about auto accidents and he morphs into a tiger fighting against the evil insurance companies for your rights from accident damage.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When I was in beginning of the negotiation stage they had me sign a paper that showed the car price of the $5995 and where I tried to get them down to $5500. They countered that offer and again I signed and thats when I got them down to $5700
By any chance to they keep those papers??? Should I have been given I copy of it?
That right there would have REAL price of the car not the one they have listed on the Bill of Sale of $7995
I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish, other than working yourself into a frenzy.
When I was in beginning of the negotiation stage they had me sign a paper that showed the car price of the $5995 and where I tried to get them down to $5500. They countered that offer and again I signed and thats when I got them down to $5700
By any chance to they keep those papers??? Should I have been given I copy of it?
That right there would have REAL price of the car not the one they have listed on the Bill of Sale of $7995
.
You've got collision insurance, right? Go easy on yourself, put a claim on your insurance company and let them decide if they want to go after the dealer.
Where are you going with this.?
The price has n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with the *end result* (On 10/23/04 my room-mate had an accident with the car and rear-ended someone) .. your bobbing for apples here .. step away from the eggnog.!
You have two separate issues here .. 1.) you have your room mate doing the D-Day invasion into the back of the guy in front of him, and 2.) you have the dealer that "might" have sold a vehicle that had bad and/or missing parts -- what does one, have to do with the other.?
Terry.
Mark
My roomate didn't decide to rear end someone. Thats why they call it an accident.
What I am thinking...
As I tried to explain before..
1) The dealership had the wrong price on invoice.
Listed price = $7995 - Actual price the weekend I got the car it was $5995. I got them down to $5700 got $295 off. Not $2295. With that big savings I didn't get there went my warranty because they lied about listing price.
2) my beefs with the car missing the re-bar and airbag sensors
I came here for help and have been told I did all the wrong things. Yes I agree I made a huge MISTAKE. Wanna keep rubbing my nose in it?? I do think I have some legal recourse regard both issues mentioned.
You have absolutely NO legal recourse from the discount or warranty perspectives - a dealership doesn't have to provide ANY warranty with a used car at all. All that's required is that whatever warranty is provided, it has to be disclosed on the federal disclosure document (the "as-is" sticker).
Go ahead and pursue this with the reinforcement bar - you seem to have enough documentation and opinions to help you out - my only thought is that you'll have a tough time showing real damages, since the repairs will be made, and your insurance company hasn't denied your claim. If they get involved with the "missing bar" investigation, they MAY deny your claim and leave you holding the bag for the cost of all repairs PLUS the other car's damages and driver/occupant injuries, adding insult to injury. I would remain quiet until the claim is paid, then approach the dealership after the fact. Even that behavior is fraudulent, actually, but informing the insurance company could cost you THOUSANDS and dropped coverage.
I'm in the automotive legal field, and I believe you'll have trouble finding an attorney to help you on this - there were no injuries resulting from this missing bar, and your party was at fault.
I think that your biggest problem is that you have gotten the advise that you have sought (several times actually). It may be hard to accept that the consensus does not agree with you. The good news, though, is that none of us are going to represent you in your case. Good Luck - however you proceed, and better luck next time.