Nadinewa, I'm afraid that driftracer, Terry, & others are right when they state that there is no "invoice" on used vehicles. Dealers can tag the vehicle with any price, and they can sell it at any mutually-agreed price, with or without warranty. This is all part of the negotiation process. I'm not sure what you're saying - are you indicating that the purchase price listed on your paperwork is not what you actually paid?
The only remaining issue for debate is with the bar & sensors - the wreck is really irrelevant, except inasmuch as it enabled you to discover the missing elements. If your paperwork explicitly states that there is no written or implied guarantee regarding the vehicle's condition, you are probably out of luck. Your best option is to take all of your paperwork, including any mechanical inspection, to an attorney.
Unfortunately, we can't offer legal advice here, and that's your only option. Our shopping discussions mainly deal with questions prior to the finalization of a contract; after there's a contract, it's usually up to you, the dealership, and any attorneys to sort out.
kirstie_h
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
My Dad's wrecked '99 Buick LeSabre Limited has been totaled out. So, off we go to the car lots to look at something new or slightly used. My Dad has been a GM fan for many years and with the year end deals and rebates, it just might work out for him.
Yay! My membership to CCBA just might get renewed!
Mark
2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
I've never owned a Buick or have been a Buick fan, I guess because of my age and hobbies, but I saw one of these today (in black) with upgraded wheels (OEM, still) - looked really cool.
I'm in Western WA, and I am curious as to where you bought the car.
Anyway, drive safe out here. I see more than a few of the 2fast2furious set get their 5 minutes of fame being pulled from their modded cars by the jaws of life.
The other day, I went to see a dealer who claimed to have two '05 Honda CR-V LX 4WD in Silver Moss in stock. While setting up for appointment, the dealer never said anything that cars were actually not on the lot, and that one of them already had a deposit put in. So we come in, he shows us the lists, and shows that both cars are still 'in transit', and one already has a buyer name next to it. Mind you, this is 11/30, and sale of the car shows 11/24. We decided to take a shot and leave deposit for the other car, but when trying to get the dealer to give us any kind of estimate on when the car will be in, he could not give it to us.
I have a hard time digesting it. When I order a $40 computer part, the store sends me a tracking number, and at any time I can check where the package is, and what is scheduled delivery date. How a dealer cannot know and have no way to find out where a $20,000 car is, is frankly beyond me. Is this for real, or the dealer is playing games? Thanks!
when it comes to vehicle inventory, these days are the same as 20 years ago - you get a projected build date, a projected ship date, then a confirmed ship date.
There isn't a tracking number like with the Flowmaster muffler I ordered from Jeg's, and knew this morning that it was on the FedEx truck for delivery...
I'm assuming two things - (a) it would be ghastly expensive to initiate a formal vehicle tracking system, thereby further raising the price of a vehicle, and (b) dealers aren't beating the manufacturers up for exact delivery times and dates, because in most cases, there's no need.
Having a deposit on it guarantees it's yours, and when the dealer says it'll be there within the next two weeks, that's likely all the info they have.
On the DCX site of the fence here, they put in a tracking system about a year ago so we can track cars once they leave the various factories. Today, a car was delivered to our dealership that the computer shows is still in a storage yard in Canada. I'm sure it was expensive, and it's accurate to about 5 days (and our guesses are generally only off by 3 or 4, and free).
You would think that if Wal-Mart can track Charmin with RFID chips, that you could keep track of a car...
It really isn't rocket science... I'm thinking that they could track it to within one day either way, without much trouble or added expense.. If they can just-in-time the thousands of parts that go into a car, surely they can track something that only fits 12 to a semi..
I think many dealers know that its going to be two weeks.... but, they won't tell the customer, because they want the sale..
Hi, I'm in the Seattle area. I bought the car up north on HWY 99 in Everett. Not driving yet. Doing my homework here before I buy my next car. This has been one hell of a learning experience.
the thought really was that, WITH collision, a totalled car would be the best thing that could happen. that way, this experience would be just a learning experience for you, not one also associated with financial loss.
"No Collision - so I pay for repairs out of pocket" Are you saying you bought it for cash? Usually when there's a loan involved, collision insurance is a requirement. Also, I'm with drift... insurance or no insurance, unless it's $2,000 or so to fix the car, better to just junk it... it won't be worth much after it's been through the body shop. -Mathias
It's good to look at this as a learning experience. there's probably few who can truthfully say they haven't been fleeced at least a bit on a car purchase. contrary to what you might believe from postings on these boards, not everyone is a flawless, all-knowing, ice-cold negotiator.
anyway, good luck with your next car purchase. hopefully you and your roomie can work out a "financial arrangement" in light of what happened to your car. when doing your homework, be sure to check out the boards in here, especially "real world trade in values", where you can get a better idea of what you should pay for the car you're looking at before you get down to price negotiations.
It's certainly not a matter of amusement - I help consumers for a living, so I'm not laughing at you.
It seems to me, though, that you're not seeing the forest for the trees. You went on incessantly about a discount you may have gotten or not - you DID get a discount, although in my opinion, you needed to do some more research, because the price you paid was over NADA retail. You learned to look at a different source for your next bit of pre-purchse information.
Your second quest concerned the warranty - no dealer HAS to put a warranty on a used car - period. Having a wreck, though, doesn't involve any warranty, since a warranty covers mechanical breakdown, not driver negligence. The warranty, in this case, is a completely moot point.
It seems that you're tearing up the roads looking for a legal remedy, when I would be looking my roommate square in the eye. You're obsessing over how much of a discount you got and what warranty applies, when neither have anything to do with the accident or recovery. You seem to blame everyone else in this whole scenario except the person who, while driving your new (to you) car, wrecked it. And you don't have insurance to cover the loss. To me, if that person didn't stand up and do the right thing, I'd take them to small claims court.
Many lessons learned here, and unfortunately, you were financially screwed at the end of the story. Again, I'm not amused or laughing - if you were my little sister, I'd be helping you take your roommate to court, plus looking into the dealer for the missing reinforcement bar issue.
If Nadine tries to take her roommate to court, the roommate might file a lawsuit against Nadine for loaning her a car that was unsafe because it was missing the reinforcement bar.
We probably need to end this saga now, so that members feel free to stop by and share a "dealer's trick" story.
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My wife and I love the looks of the new Chrysler 300. We went to our local dealer, a dealership where we have purchased two other new cars.
We looked around, took a test drive, and left. A pleasant experience, to that point.
A week or so later, I get a phone call...they have a beautiful 300, loaded, and in the color we had expressed interest in. "Come on down!" You betcha.
My wife's brother works at the Chrysler assembly plant here in town, and we are eligible for a substantial discount from invoice. We have used his Daimler-Chrysler ID# (DCID), on three other occasions. I know the routine, and so does the dealer.
Having said that, it was a $29,700 car, with the W. P. Chrysler Signature Series upgrades...$3700 in upgrades, no additional charge. Our out the door price, for a $33K+ car? Under 27K.
Nice if you can do it...and we could. There was no negotiation on the price...I would be buying it cheaper than the employees in the dealership.
Here's the rub. My trade would have been a 2003 Chrysler PT Turbo cruiser. The TMV, in "good" condition, was about 14K. KBB was even higher. All I was asking for was WHOLESALE on the trade. Sure, I could have probably sold it for 15,500 through the paper...heck, there are several in the area for sale in the dealerships for $18,999.
They offered me 11K. Take it or leave it, non-negotiable trade.
I got up, and asked for my keys back. It took ten full minutes to get out of the door, with me becoming increasingly strident.
They kept telling me that they can get the full 30K retail from the 300, and that they didn't need, or want my car.
I kept telling them that they KNEW I would be getting a Green Sheet deal, and that the purchase price of the new vehicle was MUCH less than MSRP. They called me, not the other way 'round.
Their way of making a profit was to make 4-7 thousand dollars off the trade, in addition to the hold back on the new vehicle.
Nobody is going to make 7K on a trade from me...now now, not ever.
So, my wife and I stomped out. A week later, I get an e-mail from my salesman, saying that the car was still on the lot, and to come back and talk.
I e-mailed HIM back, and said that unless they were willing to pay WHOLESALE on my trade, as a MINIMUM, then we couldn't do business.
We are playing chicken ... and I'm not going to break. It helps that I love my turbo cruiser.
Sorry to hear about your experience but I don't see any tricks by the dealer. They simply didn't want your car, it happens. I haven't had much luck either getting a trade-in for what Edmunds lists my car as trade in value. You might want to post over on "Real world trade in values" to see what they come up with as a trade.
I agree. If the 300 is a great deal (and you want it), sell the PT yourself. SHouldn't be too hard if you are only looking to get 14K out of it. Or find a carmax if you don't want to deal with the public.
And no, there wasn't any trick by the dealer.
If you really think they are jobbing you, go to a different dealer. The 30 0price s/b the same, and you will have a new perspective on the PT
I would recommend posting your trade on the "Real world trade in values" thread. The guys in that forum do a pretty good job of really telling you what your trade will bring at the dealer. Did you ever think "Hey, maybe that's all my PT cruiser is really worth wholesale". After all, as had been said many times, "books don't buy cars, dealers/people buy cars"!
on trade - your best bet is to retail locally or through cars.com or ebay -
I have the same car (2003 PT GT, silver) with more miles and have been offered $9-10k....don't be insulted, it's just the way the market is - these cars are "soft", and since that's what dealers pay at auction, there's no reason to pay more for yours.
Well I have been eligible for GM employee prices for many years now so maybe I can give another angle to the Chrysler 500 story.
When cars are in high demand like maybe the Chrysler 500 is, Then some dealers are not too enthusiastic about taking an employee deal. They can sell these cars at MSRP or higher and generate much more profit than an employee deal. I know for example that If I were to try to get the employee price on say a 2005 Corvette that I would get laughed off the lot. If you were to read the fine print on your employee purchase documents you'll see that it is the dealers option to sell you a car. It's nothing personal, it's just a business decision.
So what I am wondering is: Was the price of your PT really lowballed or does the dealer just not want your business all that bad ?? Said another way, Perhaps the lowball offer on your trade makes up for the lost profits that a high demand car can get. Think about it from the dealers point of view, If you could sell every 500 at list or better why would you even consider an employee deal ?
My advice, if you can wait the 6 months or a year for the Chrysler 500 to cool off then you'll get the employee price plus maybe some incentives. If you have to have it now then you'll just have to pay the going rate.
In our region, 2003 PT Turbos w/20K miles are selling at auction for $10500-$11500. Galves, which is the wholesale guide used in the northeast is even a bit lower than that.
Chrysler 500 aside, every season there's something(s) that is/are the hot must have car. Many soon become a flash in the pan. Some cars are more brief flashes than others. Some recent examples of cars that were cool when they came out but now are just another car are the PT cruiser, Thunderbird, GTO, SSR.
So if you want to waste your money, go pay list price or higher on this years hot model.
This is a quote from Denniss in August in Real World Trade In Values:
"Everything I look at says 15K or above, the dealer is offering just $12,800.
I would be getting a 2005 Chrysler 300, using a green sheet (below invoice), so I suspect he is trying to find some profit here.
Now what? He has a 2003 Turbo, red instead of the blue that I have, and is pricing it at 17K. Is this reasonable? That he is asking for more than 4K profit for my trade?"
We're in an are where there is a local branch of Chrysler Financial and a factory, so we're asked about employee deals so often that some of our salespeople have 2-3 a month including their referrals. Whenever a hot car comes out, it is a difficult decision to make (from the business/profit standpoint). Allocations are rough, wait time is long, and customers will pay MSRP for some cars. The last 'hot' car we really had was the PT, but it (for some reason) did not attract too many employees at first - so it was not a real problem. I'd bet that we could sell our entire allocation to employees (of the 300 and Magnum). So what do you do? You have to plan for it and try to strike some sort of balance - if it's possible. I can tell you that some of our local competitors do not accept employee deals on ANY car.
I do 20 GM lemon law cases per week - that's the deal I have set up with the managing partner that handles GM cases.
Out of 20, at least 12-15 per week are bought through GM employee purchase plans. I'm not saying the cases aren't valid, **some** are, but it's funny that the people who walk in with preset pricing, far below what anyone else can do, are also the biggest complainers and most willing, it seems, to sue the manufacturer. Many, of course, are very brazen in the fact that they are actual GM employees who have signed mediation agreements.
Just an intersting aside from my personal data bank.
Let's wait til another possible "dealer trick" is posted.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I went to a dealer and we agreed on a deal for the price of a vechicle they had to get from another dealer (dealer trade)meanwhile when negociating my trade we couldn't agree on an amount so I left the dealership and went home.In the meantime I called another local dealer and asked if he could do a search for the vechicle since it is a 2004 leftover with all the options and color I want. He tells me he did a huge search for a vechicle w/ these specifications and he can't find anything at all. I then called the first dealer back and asked if we could still make a deal on the car (since I decided to sell my car on the street)and he said he's pretty sure he could get the car and to come in with a deposit,he can't get the vechicle unless I make a deposit. Is there any way I could get anything in writing before I leave a deposit so if he can't get it my money won't be tied up?
We buy all of our cars with personal checks and we never fill out anything like a credit application. Since we are not applying for credit, I refuse to fill out a credit application. Remember, the dealer wants your money more than you want their car, so you get to make the rules.
I think it is very reasonable to let them use our SSN to do a credit check on us if they want to.
The dealers have never asked us to wait for the check to clear before we take the car. We give them a check, hop in the car, rev it to the redline, drop the clutch, and we are gone.
Well, maybe I exaggerate a little, but you get the idea.
although they should confirm with you whether the actual one you want is out there, your actions indicate that you may shop them even after they commit.
They want a deposit before they jump through hoops, plus to cover the expenses of a dealer trade, plus to know you're serious, plus to make sure they get the deal instead of the dealer down the street. The last thing they want to do is epnd money to go get a leftover 2004 and end up sitting on it (eating the cost of the trade and the vehicle)...
As long as you're committed, and they actually have a vehicle they can get that fits your needs, you shouldn't have a problem dropping a deposit, and they shouldn't have a problem getting the vehicle for you ASAP.
Comments
I'm afraid that driftracer, Terry, & others are right when they state that there is no "invoice" on used vehicles. Dealers can tag the vehicle with any price, and they can sell it at any mutually-agreed price, with or without warranty. This is all part of the negotiation process. I'm not sure what you're saying - are you indicating that the purchase price listed on your paperwork is not what you actually paid?
The only remaining issue for debate is with the bar & sensors - the wreck is really irrelevant, except inasmuch as it enabled you to discover the missing elements. If your paperwork explicitly states that there is no written or implied guarantee regarding the vehicle's condition, you are probably out of luck. Your best option is to take all of your paperwork, including any mechanical inspection, to an attorney.
Unfortunately, we can't offer legal advice here, and that's your only option. Our shopping discussions mainly deal with questions prior to the finalization of a contract; after there's a contract, it's usually up to you, the dealership, and any attorneys to sort out.
kirstie_h
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I give up at this point but I do wish you well.
Yay! My membership to CCBA just might get renewed!
Mark
I'm in Western WA, and I am curious as to where you bought the car.
Anyway, drive safe out here. I see more than a few of the 2fast2furious set get their 5 minutes of fame being pulled from their modded cars by the jaws of life.
I have a hard time digesting it. When I order a $40 computer part, the store sends me a tracking number, and at any time I can check where the package is, and what is scheduled delivery date. How a dealer cannot know and have no way to find out where a $20,000 car is, is frankly beyond me. Is this for real, or the dealer is playing games? Thanks!
There isn't a tracking number like with the Flowmaster muffler I ordered from Jeg's, and knew this morning that it was on the FedEx truck for delivery...
I'm assuming two things - (a) it would be ghastly expensive to initiate a formal vehicle tracking system, thereby further raising the price of a vehicle, and (b) dealers aren't beating the manufacturers up for exact delivery times and dates, because in most cases, there's no need.
Having a deposit on it guarantees it's yours, and when the dealer says it'll be there within the next two weeks, that's likely all the info they have.
It really isn't rocket science... I'm thinking that they could track it to within one day either way, without much trouble or added expense.. If they can just-in-time the thousands of parts that go into a car, surely they can track something that only fits 12 to a semi..
I think many dealers know that its going to be two weeks.... but, they won't tell the customer, because they want the sale..
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Hi, I'm in the Seattle area. I bought the car up north on HWY 99 in Everett. Not driving yet. Doing my homework here before I buy my next car. This has been one hell of a learning experience.
Nadine
Good luck in the whole deal.
Why could that be best thing?? Car is 90% totaled...
No Collision - so I pay for repairs out of pocket.
Nadine
Are you saying you bought it for cash? Usually when there's a loan involved, collision insurance is a requirement.
Also, I'm with drift... insurance or no insurance, unless it's $2,000 or so to fix the car, better to just junk it... it won't be worth much after it's been through the body shop.
-Mathias
My comment only would apply if the car had collision/comprehensive insurance.
Mark
anyway, good luck with your next car purchase. hopefully you and your roomie can work out a "financial arrangement" in light of what happened to your car. when doing your homework, be sure to check out the boards in here, especially "real world trade in values", where you can get a better idea of what you should pay for the car you're looking at before you get down to price negotiations.
It seems to me, though, that you're not seeing the forest for the trees. You went on incessantly about a discount you may have gotten or not - you DID get a discount, although in my opinion, you needed to do some more research, because the price you paid was over NADA retail. You learned to look at a different source for your next bit of pre-purchse information.
Your second quest concerned the warranty - no dealer HAS to put a warranty on a used car - period. Having a wreck, though, doesn't involve any warranty, since a warranty covers mechanical breakdown, not driver negligence. The warranty, in this case, is a completely moot point.
It seems that you're tearing up the roads looking for a legal remedy, when I would be looking my roommate square in the eye. You're obsessing over how much of a discount you got and what warranty applies, when neither have anything to do with the accident or recovery. You seem to blame everyone else in this whole scenario except the person who, while driving your new (to you) car, wrecked it. And you don't have insurance to cover the loss. To me, if that person didn't stand up and do the right thing, I'd take them to small claims court.
Many lessons learned here, and unfortunately, you were financially screwed at the end of the story. Again, I'm not amused or laughing - if you were my little sister, I'd be helping you take your roommate to court, plus looking into the dealer for the missing reinforcement bar issue.
Terry.
Or the family suing to recover millions because their son was shot during a home invasion rape/robbery...and he was the one raping and robbing...
Those examples are much stronger, of course, but you'd better bet that my roommate and I would be coming to an agreement ASAP.
Roomates seem to be a problem on those shows.
I know this is a serious topic for Nadine, but I just see a little humor in trying to get the roomie to pay....
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
kirstie_h
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We looked around, took a test drive, and left. A pleasant experience, to that point.
A week or so later, I get a phone call...they have a beautiful 300, loaded, and in the color we had expressed interest in. "Come on down!" You betcha.
My wife's brother works at the Chrysler assembly plant here in town, and we are eligible for a substantial discount from invoice. We have used his Daimler-Chrysler ID# (DCID), on three other occasions. I know the routine, and so does the dealer.
Having said that, it was a $29,700 car, with the W. P. Chrysler Signature Series upgrades...$3700 in upgrades, no additional charge. Our out the door price, for a $33K+ car? Under 27K.
Nice if you can do it...and we could. There was no negotiation on the price...I would be buying it cheaper than the employees in the dealership.
Here's the rub. My trade would have been a 2003 Chrysler PT Turbo cruiser. The TMV, in "good" condition, was about 14K. KBB was even higher. All I was asking for was WHOLESALE on the trade. Sure, I could have probably sold it for 15,500 through the paper...heck, there are several in the area for sale in the dealerships for $18,999.
They offered me 11K. Take it or leave it, non-negotiable trade.
I got up, and asked for my keys back. It took ten full minutes to get out of the door, with me becoming increasingly strident.
They kept telling me that they can get the full 30K retail from the 300, and that they didn't need, or want my car.
I kept telling them that they KNEW I would be getting a Green Sheet deal, and that the purchase price of the new vehicle was MUCH less than MSRP. They called me, not the other way 'round.
Their way of making a profit was to make 4-7 thousand dollars off the trade, in addition to the hold back on the new vehicle.
Nobody is going to make 7K on a trade from me...now now, not ever.
So, my wife and I stomped out. A week later, I get an e-mail from my salesman, saying that the car was still on the lot, and to come back and talk.
I e-mailed HIM back, and said that unless they were willing to pay WHOLESALE on my trade, as a MINIMUM, then we couldn't do business.
We are playing chicken ... and I'm not going to break. It helps that I love my turbo cruiser.
And no, there wasn't any trick by the dealer.
If you really think they are jobbing you, go to a different dealer. The 30 0price s/b the same, and you will have a new perspective on the PT
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
KS......Is right ...Post over to RRTVs and Terry will tell ya what its REALLY worth !
I have the same car (2003 PT GT, silver) with more miles and have been offered $9-10k....don't be insulted, it's just the way the market is - these cars are "soft", and since that's what dealers pay at auction, there's no reason to pay more for yours.
Driftracer is right, sell it yourself if you can!
When cars are in high demand like maybe the Chrysler 500 is, Then some dealers are not too enthusiastic about taking an employee deal. They can sell these cars at MSRP or higher and generate much more profit than an employee deal. I know for example that If I were to try to get the employee price on say a 2005 Corvette that I would get laughed off the lot. If you were to read the fine print on your employee purchase documents you'll see that it is the dealers option to sell you a car. It's nothing personal, it's just a business decision.
So what I am wondering is: Was the price of your PT really lowballed or does the dealer just not want your business all that bad ?? Said another way, Perhaps the lowball offer on your trade makes up for the lost profits that a high demand car can get. Think about it from the dealers point of view, If you could sell every 500 at list or better why would you even consider an employee deal ?
My advice, if you can wait the 6 months or a year for the Chrysler 500 to cool off then you'll get the employee price plus maybe some incentives. If you have to have it now then you'll just have to pay the going rate.
But, I could be wrong...
So if you want to waste your money, go pay list price or higher on this years hot model.
However my point about employee prices on in-demand models is valid. No dealer is obligated to do an employee deal on any car.
"Everything I look at says 15K or above, the dealer is offering just $12,800.
I would be getting a 2005 Chrysler 300, using a green sheet (below invoice), so I suspect he is trying to find some profit here.
Now what? He has a 2003 Turbo, red instead of the blue that I have, and is pricing it at 17K. Is this reasonable? That he is asking for more than 4K profit for my trade?"
Out of 20, at least 12-15 per week are bought through GM employee purchase plans. I'm not saying the cases aren't valid, **some** are, but it's funny that the people who walk in with preset pricing, far below what anyone else can do, are also the biggest complainers and most willing, it seems, to sue the manufacturer. Many, of course, are very brazen in the fact that they are actual GM employees who have signed mediation agreements.
Just an intersting aside from my personal data bank.
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thanks, Hogan
I think it is very reasonable to let them use our SSN to do a credit check on us if they want to.
The dealers have never asked us to wait for the check to clear before we take the car. We give them a check, hop in the car, rev it to the redline, drop the clutch, and we are gone.
Well, maybe I exaggerate a little, but you get the idea.
They want a deposit before they jump through hoops, plus to cover the expenses of a dealer trade, plus to know you're serious, plus to make sure they get the deal instead of the dealer down the street. The last thing they want to do is epnd money to go get a leftover 2004 and end up sitting on it (eating the cost of the trade and the vehicle)...
As long as you're committed, and they actually have a vehicle they can get that fits your needs, you shouldn't have a problem dropping a deposit, and they shouldn't have a problem getting the vehicle for you ASAP.