Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

chicagojo

I'm looking for anyone who can advise me about my rights in the following situation: I purchased a new 2004 Honda Pilot from a local dealership on Saturday (12/11/04). I also purchased several optional accessories for the car, but they could not be installed that day because the service department was about to close. I brought the car back today (12/14/04) to have those accessories installed and while the car was in the service department, one of their employees crashed another car into mine with enough force that the bumper needs to be replaced (and who knows what other frame damage may have been incurred). Aside from replacing the bumper, the dealership is not offering me any other compensation. In fact, they are not even offering an apology - the attitude of both the service manager and the general manager was "sh*t happens." To me, it is simply not acceptable that my brand new car now has collision damage that is the dealer's fault. I asked them to replace the car with an identical make/model from their stock but they claim they are not allowed to do this. Am I unreasonable to be upset about this situation? What are my rights here? What should I do next? What other compensation can I ask for that would be reasonable? (free scheduled maintenance for the life of the vehicle? free accessories?) TIA for any advice. I am really fuming over this one...

mark156

Chicagojo, sorry to hear about the damage on your new SUV. You know, that damage could have happened anywhere. It could have been in the Nieman Marcus parking lot from the valet....or at your local Burger King. If it happened before you took possession, then maybe they would have changed vehicles, but you drove it for 4 days.

 

Seems that the most you could do is "maybe" get a little compensation from the person driving the car as "diminutive" value.

 

Hope all goes well. Mark

jglackin

Take yourself out of the picture for a moment and realize that a 'medium-sized' dealership would have about 250 new and 100 used cars and probably in inventory. They'd also have about 60-75 service appointments each day and 30 or so sales department visitors each day. Add to that 25 service department employees and 15 or so sales department employees, and you have LOTS of cars, trucks,deliveries, tow trucks, and other lot movement.

 

Unfortunately, accidents happen - and it is even more unfortunate that it happened to you in the first 24 hours of ownership. Dealerships pay HUGE premiums for insurance, and, in most cases, the employees are liable for the deductible. I am not a lawyer, but I would think that as long as the dealership returns the Pilot to you in the same condition, they've met their obligation to you. If you think you deserve more, I may recommend sugar rather than vinegar (even though you are obviously upset). Explain, calmly, how upset you are - to the general sales manager or general manager, and offer something reasonable - maybe cost on those accessories and a discount on the labor.

 

Just to set your mind at ease - since the accident was likely at about 5mph or less, ask to see both vehicles pre-repair. Today's bumper covers are almost 'throw-away'.

isellhondas

You must, indeed be "fuming" because you have posted this in other forums.

 

No excuse for a cavalier attitude by that service department, but, "stuff" does happen. It is highly unlikely you have damage beyond the bumper.

 

Your Pilot will be fine, relax. Worse things to worry about.

qbrozen

just the bumper is no big deal at all. Its just plastic. If there was damage to the sheetmetal, then I'd be a bit more upset, but, as it stands, let them fix it and get on with life.

chicagojo

So, I called the dealership again today and spoke with the service manager. Whereas yesterday he was being a total jerk about the whole thing, today he was actually very apologetic and kept saying things like "this is inexcuseable". I also learned that it is only the bumper cover, not the bumper itself, that was damaged - which makes me feel a whole lot better because now I don't feel like I need to worry that there may be other hidden damage to the car (yesterday they had mistakenly said it was the whole bumper that was damaged and needed to be replaced, which led me to think that the force of the impact must have been pretty severe). On top of this, he agreed to talk with the general manager and see if they can comp some future service or additional accessories to help smooth things over. Thanks to everyone for helping me put this in perspective. Although I'm still annoyed, getting this whole new attitude of apology and willingness to do something to make the situation better from the service manager today, plus learning that the damage is much more minor than I was originally told, has definitely made me feel better about the whole thing.

kyfdx

Now, I feel better too!!

 

Good deal!!

isellhondas

" We are sorry, but one of our people accidently bumped your Pilot into another car...the only damage is the bumper cover which we are going to replace."

 

It didn't have to be difficult.

chicagojo

"It didn't have to be difficult."

 

My thoughts exactly. I'm just glad it's all resolved now. AND I'm getting a few free accessories thrown in. The strange thing is, today the service manager really did sound like he felt terrible about the whole thing. Maybe yesterday he was just having a really bad day...

rroyce10

**Here's the rub. My trade would have been a 2003 Chrysler PT Turbo cruiser. The TMV, in "good" condition, was about 14K. KBB was even higher. All I was asking for was WHOLESALE on the trade. Sure, I could have probably sold it for 15,500 through the paper... heck, there are several in the area for sale in the dealerships for $18,999.**

 

          ==============================

 

          Thats what dealer pays - *wholesale* and thats what they offered you ... there is nothing special, nothing glorious and nothing fantastic about 03 14k Turbo PT Cruiser .. they can buy them all day long for the super tall $10's low/mid $11's ~ seems like the dealer was fair, very fair ...

 

              False price: Very costly .. don't like the price.? sell it on your own, simple.

 

                               Terry.

hogan3

well I gave a deposit yesterday for the vehicle and they told me they would pick up the truck today . I called them to get the vin # on the truck they said they would get back to me. Wouldn't you know I get a call from the dealer on my answering machine stating the truck turns out to be a demo and he didn't know til the driver went to pick it up .The other dealer I called prior to this told me that the truck I wanted was not out there (being a leftover),at least he was honest with me instead of dragging me in to get me to commit to something (monetarialy) that wasn't there. What do you think about demos and how would you work out a price if you already made a deal for a new vechicle? Sould I give this guy the benefit of the doubt and believe he didn't know it was a demo?

        APPRICIATE ANY HELP

kyfdx

I would run away from this deal.. You didn't feel he was being straight with you from the start, and now he has proven it to you..

 

You'll kick yourself if you keep dealing with this guy..

rroyce10

....... I wouldn't get all bent, because I've done many dealer trades and it does happen .. the owners wife had it, the daughter used it to go to summer camp, it's common, it's unfortunate and it wastes everyones time and money, especially the dealers .. give the dealer another chance ...

 

            Kyfdx is waaay to critical, maybe we should put him in the business for awhile and see what it's all about, because anyone can be a Monday morning quarterback ...............

 

                                   Terry.

steine13

How could this be a scam? It's a scam if he tries to actually sell you the thing as new, but he's just told you, sorry, it got goofed up.

You can walk and get your money back, of course, but I'd see what they suggest... maybe the vehicle you want is really not available, then you're back to square one.

Demos aren't necessarily bad, but I wouldn't be interested... if I'm gonna shell out beaucoup $$ for a car, I want it to be new in the sense that it has 4 miles on it, or maybe 50, but not 2000... but that's a personal thing.

And yeah, kyfdx was a little quick on the draw, but he's funny, that counts for a lot around here...

-Mathias

kyfdx

My feel from both of his posts... was that the guy never had a "new" car lined up.... and knew that was a demo all along... I think our friend had that feeling also.. He was wary about putting down a deposit with this guy, and the very thing he feared would happen...did happen..

 

Ever have a guy make an appointment to meet you at your house to give an estimate on a job? Painting, landscaping, whatever...

 

He doesn't show up...no call.. no explanation..

 

Two days later he calls... apologizes... says he is sorry...car broke down, kid was sick, etc, etc...yada, yada, yada..

 

Now, he might be the world's greatest painter, landscaper, etc... and could give the Pope as a reference... but, I'm never going to give him another chance, because he has already shown his colors... and, if anything turns out bad, I'll kick myself because it was staring me right in the face, and I ignored it.

 

That is the feeling I got from his posts about that dealer.... he had a bad feeling, and it came true..

 

I agree with Mathias...not a scam.. He isn't trying to hide anything from you NOW..

 

But, this Terry guy.. he just doesn't like me.. but, I hear he knows a little about cars.. ;-)

 

regards,

kyfdx

Kirstie_H

It's impossible to tell whether the dealer was pulling a fast one or not... BUT, my feeling is that if you feel in any way uncomfortable, move on - unless you believe in The One True Vehicle™, in which case you must buy since it's your automotive soulmate.

 

A car is a big purchase. Take your time, shop around, and reward the salesperson with whom you feel most comfortable.

isellhondas

Trust your instincts. You either feel comfortable or you don't. Lots of other places to shop.

audia8q

I never assume any dealer swap is going to work out until the car in on my lot....It's one thing to see the car on the dealer locater but its another thing to actually put the swap together. It's even a bigger deal when the located car is at a close competitor. Often the consumer has been there and the other dealer knows it.

So they feel if they hold out, the consumer may come back and buy from them.

 

I often spend more time negotiating the swap than the sale with the consumer.

 

In your case, I'm with the other guys....if you don't feel comfortable with the dealer, change. Your spending alot of money and hopefully your building a good long term relationship. You don't want to do that with somebody you don't feel good about.

gkbenji

Heard an amusing radio ad for a dealership today. They have been "family owned for 44 years" so they are having a "$44 Under" sale: all vehicles on sale for "$44 under!"

 

They never bother to mention "under what". Under invoice? Under MSRP? Under the gross national product of Lichtenstein? I got a good chuckle out of it.

nortsr1

What pecentage of sales are made at MSRP as compared to Invoice or a lot less than MSRP?? Do not include rebates and incentives.

 #2 Question..

If a mfg. is offering rebates and the buyer is not aware of same...Is it the dealers obligation to advise the buyer or is the "Buyer Beware" in effect??

dbauer

in my case, i deal with manufacturer employee pricing on 90+% of my deals, so its rare to see a sticker deal.

 

as far as incentives, the dealer has no obligation to divulge them...however...that dealer is taking a big chance of losing lots of business if they dont. its a big risk for only a grand or two, especially when its someone else's money.

hogan3

What ticked me off about this deal was the first thing I asked him before I put down a deposit was is it a demo and with me not being in car sales if I know enough to ask that question of an "04" leftover does it make any sense that a 10 year veteran would not ask that question and tell me he sent his driver (pick up the vehicle) 200- 300 miles to pick it up and not know anything til the driver reports back and says its a DEMO. I do agree its not a scam but he got me to commit financially $500.00 To take me out of the market if only for a week and with most peoples schedules these days being so busy that I would not have the time or patience to go elsewhere and start the whole process all over again. Most of the time when you shop for a car time is of the essence,be it your hectic work schedule or your car was totaled and you have a loaner etc. they know this and boy do they exploit it. This is why car salesmen get a bad "NAME". I am going to take a break from the game playing of CAR BUYING and try to enjoy the holidays! ps I wonder if these people ever heard of the word INTEGRITY and truly understand its meaning!

jglackin

Actually, here in PA, we are required to disclose consumer rebates. There is a disclosure form that the customer signs acknowledging the use of exactly what rebates he/she received.

Kirstie_H

Several personally-directed posts have been removed. No personal attacks, and no sweeping generalizations, folks.

rroyce10

....... Nothing personal, just quoting his words .....

 

                                  Terry.

kyfdx

Man... take a day off and miss four juicy posts...

 

I hope at least a few of them were directed towards me... ;-)

yhs

I bought a Nissan Altima December 27, 2005. The internet sales guy and his manager were all fine to deal with as we had finalized the price over email. The finance guy, on the other hand, tried to pull the wool over my eyes. He gave me two options: the normal finance APR or a lower APR if I buy the extended warranty (at an outrageous price). He wrote the two figures on a blank sheet of paper.. The monthly payment on the lower APR + full warranty was about $8 cheaper so logically I went with that choice. I went home with the paperwork, and punched in the original APR in an online payment calculator, and it was not what the finance guy wrote down, in fact it was ~$37 less. i went back and complained (also had my complaint documented with nissan consumer affairs). i got the extended warranty removed for the original APR, but they gave me a lowered APR as an appeasement for the "confusion" that had occurred. so my point is, either bring a financial calculator or have someone by a computer with internet access so you could call them from the dealership. just wanted to warn people about one deceptive ploy into getting a customer to buy extended warranty.

dbauer

sounds like they helped you outsmart yourself. you had a payment you were happy with...they got you a lower one WITH a warranty...now you have a similar payment WITHOUT the warranty.

 

i think the wool was successfully pulled over your eyes long before you stepped into the dealership.

kyfdx

He didn't say he got the same payment.. He said he got the lower APR... I would assume that means the payment is lower..

 

The finance office is the best place to get laid... I mean screwed..

 

No offense meant to any F&I guys out there..

dbauer

ok...he got a lower APR on the last deal. even if its a whole point, that can mean only about $10-$15 a month on a $20k loan.

 

my line of thinking was this:

 

original payment at the higher APR = $x

lower APR w/warranty = $x minus $8

original payment w/lower APR = $x minus $10 or $15

 

i take option 2 every day and twice on sunday. thats why i think he outsmarted himself.

 

i dont disagree that the finance office is dangerous for an uninformed person...i just think there are worse things in the world than a finance guy making a little dough.

kyfdx

My guess is the lower payment he got the first time included a longer term as well...

 

And.. the reason they caved so quickly? It is illegal in most states to require the purchase of a warranty to get a lower APR... Of course, when called on it, they remember it a little "differently".

 

regards,

kyfdx

bobst

Yeah, they are a little slippery.

 

When we bought our lasr car, they agreed to accept our OTD price of $20500.

 

The finance lady said they made a mistake and wanted to increase the price to $20501. We refused to pay that amount, so she grudgingly accepted out check for $20500.

 

Finance people - gotta watch 'em like a hawk.

danf1

What probably happened there was that the sales manager accepted your offer and didn't calculate the correct fees.

 

As a "slippery" finance person, there is nothing I dislike more than having to explain that somebody misquoted a price before the customer got into my office because no matter how true this may be, my credibility is instantly shot.

kyfdx

Sorry... but most people want an OTD figure.. If the sales manager's word isn't good, after good-faith negotiations, then I'm sure not going to pony up more money in the F&I office...

 

Can't get the sales tax right? Maybe, but that would be the only thing....

 

regards,

kyfdx

dbauer

dont forget, though, that some rates come with an upfront fee to the bank. if the deal goes through a secondary company, like wells-fargo or americredit, they have a $500 fee upfront, and many times will rewuire GAP and/or a warranty before approval.

 

other banks may require a warranty before they approve, regardless of credit. this is a loophole through that law.

 

the term could have been longer, i dont know...but i think he would have mentioned this.

danf1

I understand that. If the number that the customer is telling me is in writing, then I will honor it. If not then I get the sales manager into the office.

 

Most often it is not sales tax, but notary fees, plate fees etc..

 

Another possibility for the interest rate difference with a warranty purchase is the amount financed. I have a few banks that offer large loan discounts. By increasing your finance amount with a warranty under the right circumstances, I can save you up to a half point in interest.

mikefm58

<< Can't get the sales tax right? Maybe, but that would be the only thing.... >>

 

That reminds me when we traded in our '99 Odyssey that we were leasing. The dealer forgot to charge us sales tax on the remaining residual. They caught it 2 days after the sale, it was ugly.

guitarzan

While working in computer sales, it was our job to sell the extended warranties on products. The extended warrantee has 100% profit. (If it costs $10, $5 is profit).

I had an order for 37 3COM network cards. These cards typically go for list. The customer asked for a discount. I checked every supplier I could find, absolutely no one offered a discount on these. I did the customer a favor-I threw in one of those replacement programs on each card. If he had any trouble at all for a year, he could bring it to the store, and leave with a new network card.

 

I explained that I did this at no additional cost. I still remember the customer's words: "Yea, but those warrantees have a high markup." And he did not want it. So I took out 37 replacement programs off of his invoice. His cost was the same.

 

Adding these replacement programs in some way made me look better as a salesman, and the customer had an additional option for warrantee service. Even though I GAVE it to him FREE, he had predetermined that salesmen rip people off, and to not believe them. That was one of those few incidents I will just never forget.

 

Kyfdx, you made me laugh out loud.

 

I like the honest guys. "It's just my job to offer you the titanium wax for your car." "Sure, no problem buddy" Mwahahaa.

isellhondas

Can be pretty "small". I hate OTD offers because I than have to do the math backwards, back out the tax and license and tell them how much they are really offering for the car.

 

Not a big deal at all but I've learned just how downright cheap some people can be. I once guessed at what I thought the license fees would be and I missed by 3.00. This mind you, was on a 28,000 car.

 

Not a big deal, right? WRONG! I got paged back to finance and I had to drop the price of the car by 3.00 in order to make the customer happy.

 

Yes, I was wrong, yes the customer had a right for his lousy 3.00 but it left a bad taste in my mouth toward that customer.

 

So, now, if I estimate something, I'll pad my estimate by a few dollars. When the amount turns out to be a bit less, the customer is happy.

 

Life is short...

bobst

Life is too short to get a bad taste in your mouth just because a customer didn't want to give you $3.

 

Sorry, I couldn't help it. Happy new year, Isell.

 

Any time we get upset, all we have to do is think back to the election to make us happy, right?

 

Bob

yhs

that is correct. to clarify:

after my down payment, i financed a total of 13,000.

 

the finance guy wrote down my two options:

5.9% X 60 months for $278.18 monthly payment

or

3.64% with full warranty X 60 months for $269.94/mo

 

the 5.9% financing for 60 months actually came out to be only ~$251/mo

 

i resigned for a 4.24% rate without the extended warranty after complaining the next day of the false numbers.

dbauer

however, my original point still stands:

 

if the $278 payment was ok with you...

 

and the $269 payment was even better, with the warranty...

 

what was worrying you so much that you got a calculator AFTER the deal instead of before?

kyfdx

Very strange... but, it seems obvious that he qualified for the lower rate all along.. And that the dealer stood to make more money on the extended warrranty, than they would get from the finance company for selling the higher interest rate...

 

Still rates as sleazy in my book...

dbauer

maybe...but the question still stands...the $278 payment was ok for him one minute, but not the next...

Kirstie_H

But why is it necessary for the F&I guy to be deceptive and show an incorrect calculation? You mentioned that it's not a bad thing for the F&I guy to make a profit, and I agree - it's just not right to do so by attempting to be deceptive.

 
There are a million and one ways to make an honest profit; first and foremost, sell a product that consumers want on an above-board basis.

 

 

kirstie_h

Roving Host

Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

mirth

isell - I used to agree with you that saying $xxx + TTL was enough. However, for my last car the dealer agreed to my "OTD" offer and then included their doc fee in the TTL. This after I had told them that my offer included all fees. We worked it out but next time my offer will be for everything to avoid those kind of "misunderstandings".

guitarzan

Dbauer, his choices were not honest! The customer makes an assumption that the dealer will do the math correctly, and they trust the dealer for that. Part of the dealer's job is to add the numbers honestly. Yes, a customer can, and should do the finance calculation themselves. However, profit is distinct from the misuse of numbers.

bobst

"Why is it necessary for the F&I guy to be deceptive?"

 

Because that is how they make their money.

 

That is why you should expect them to do it to you next time you buy a car.

mikefm58

I used to do the same thing, $xxx + TTL. But now I make them run the numbers BEFORE I go in to the F&I office so there's no surprises. But the F&I guy always tries to make a little bit, just stick to your guns.

driftracer

OK, bobst, I take offense, whether I should or shouldn't - I didn't need to lie to anyone to get my job done, and I'm sure guys like danf1 will say the same.

 

The deal is written by the sales manager, and although the F&I guy discloses the paperwork, he's not usually involved in negotiation, how much you get for your trade, whether they throw in floormats, etc.

 

He gets a folder, makes sure all the stuff is in there to get the deal done, it has a deal number on it, he pulls it up on his PC, and starts going over options, trying to sell you stuff (because that's his job) and printing forms.