The next time I want to buy an Audi, I will call Northland for a quote, they sound like they are on the ball. I'm not saying Maplewood Imports,(here in St.Paul) doesn't do a good job,I'm just a little dissapointed in the wash job that they may do w/routine service.I have had the car detailed/waxed at the dealer, they have done a good job, but that was at extra cost. I'm especially fussy about my vehicle, and I think dealers,(if they want to have a long term relationship w/customer) should take notes,keep a profile of Audi enthusiasts like me that require more explanations, service,expectations than the average customer, and are "prepared" when a "pain in the butt" like me comes in!
Yup I agree some dealerships treat us like we bought a Geo Metro and demanding Ferrari service levels. I have been having problems with the trunk lid hinge mechanism lately....they're sticking and the trunk lid doesn't open by itself....it only opens after i apply considerable force to open it. I went to the dealership where I bought mine, and they said, "We checked it and it's performing within specs." C'mon, I've tried at least 5 different A4/S4's and none of them was like that. At least make some effort to correct it or change them out. I went to another dealership for the free Audi service clinic deal (I got a postcard from Audi telling me to bring my car to a specific dealership for a free checkup clinic), and that other dealership just went ahead and said we'll order the parts and replace them for free. That's what I call service....but Audi gotta get its act together and standardize the practices of all dealerships.
And Mark, I think your dealership is doing all those cuz you bought from them so many times in the last 24 yrs.....they appreciate your business and they want more from you obviously :> I don't know if they'll do the same to ALL their clients....
NYCCARGUY-I agree that what rules is the almighty dollar and if that is going to be their attitude then (GASP!) when new car time comes around again I will shop elsewhere! LAUK0DG-You hit it on the head, Billy! Not to knock Mark, but they know he is a "preferred" customer and his service and attention level at his dealership is different then yours or mine. All I am saying is that excellent service should be across the board... to marleybarr, you and I and all of us in this so called "Family". Ok, end of rant! Brian
Make sure everyone reads about the "Gumball 3000" race at www.audiworld.com. Sounds like one guy clocked @150 mph in Texas paid a $5000 fine! Driving from St.Paul to Chicago is indeed a lesson in frustration. On a clear day, light traffic, good roads... you feel like bringing the Audi up to about 110mph to make some good time, however reality sets in and you force yourself to keep it at 5 over the 65mph limit in Wisconsin. Then you see everyone but trucks passing you until 20 miles down the road, a Wis. State trooper has one of those guys who passed you up pulled over.Oh well, I'll keep it at 70 or 71 or 72 and keep my driving record clear!!!
I suspect that I am a preferred customer -- and they are a preferred dealer. Which came first? I am (my wife and I are) demanding. We also understand that bad things happen to good cars [sic]. We understand that perfection is a goal that is unattainable simply because whenever one comes close to the then current definition of perfection someone or something raises the qualifications for perfection.
We have been doing business with our dealer (virtually, but not 100%) exclusively since 1977 (when we bought a 1978 Audi 5000). Over time we became not only customers but friends of the owner and employees of the dealership. And, while our relationship is genuine, I am certain it does help. Indeed, when the sales manager retired, my wife and I continued to socialize with him and his wife. When the owner, at age 60, cashed in and sold the dealership, we continued our relationship and were even invited to his daughter's wedding.
So we are, as you can see, literally friends of the dealership. We would like to be our dealer's best customer -- and as far as I can tell our dealer would like to be our best dealer. It is a two-way street. I have been at the dealership and have seen customers treat the employees so badly that it makes me wonder what they (the customers) are thinking. Winning through intimidation rarely works. And, it doesn't make for good customer relations (and again, it is a two way street).
I often wonder what would happen if the customers would revolt and "strive -- as if in competition -- to be the best customers they can be?" Hearing -- admittedly from the dealers perspective -- how many times customers try to take advantage of the dealer, lie to the dealer and basically look at the dealer as an adversary it makes me wonder how any employee of most dealerships, who comes into contact with often rude, demanding customers, isn't completely jaundiced.
You get more done with persuasion than intimidation -- at least that has been my experience.
Oh yea, when someone at the dealership does something, anything, correctly or to your satisfaction -- write the boss a note and tell him/her so. Wait until you see what happens next time you're in their store!
Funny that you brought that up.....I went to school in WI and now work in Chicago.....I hear what you said about going from MSP to Chicago and got good roads in WIS and wanna open it up but then you can't go faster than 75 cuz that equals to a death sentence. My friend got pulled over at 74mph (9 over) and he thought he had an anagel looking over his head cuz he only got a warning. Also another time when I was still in WI at college I saw 4 cars doing pretty good speed (at like 80mph) behind me in the left lane so I went over to the right lane. First car, IL plates. Second car, IL plates. Third car, IL plates. Fourth car, what plate is that?? So I read "Wisconsin; Official".....uh oh, a state trooper. He paced the 3 cars and managed to pull each and single one of them over.
Well you can make up all your lost time once you cross the border into IL....you know how we drive in Chicagoland.....55mph speed limit, trucks go at 70mph and cars go at 75mph to 80mph. There are some speed traps but then everyone knows where they are so it's useless.....and they won't pull people over during rush hour cuz people like to slow down and see what's going on ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HIGHWAY.....that pisses me off so bad. However, watch out for unmarked cruisers.....and they're not just the normal Impalas or Crown Vics....I've seen a white Mustang, and black Grand Prix (!!) and a black Camaro pulling people over.....and that's not the only unmarked cars.
A coworker of mine grew up in Wisconsin and now complains every time he goes home to visit the folks - he now has those dreaded Illinois plates on his car. Hes been pulled over but was able to sufficiently convince the trooper that he was really from Wisconsin and avoided a ticket (the UW and Packers stickers all over his car probably didn't hurt). Of course, Illinois gets back at Wisconsin with that god-awful toll booth on I-94...
I have found that the Wisconsin State Patrol are the most creative in picking spots to wait for speeders. Just outside of Madison, I saw 8 patrol cars "hiding" in the median strip behind bushes,etc., so the potential violator wouldn't see the police until it was too late. Radar Detectors don't work, because the police rarely "cruise", they are in a stationary position using laser which is too fast for the detector to work effectively. How about changing the laws so we have one day per month w/ no speedlimits? Has anyone actually brought an Audi up to the "limiter" speed of about 125mph? I have come up to about 107 mph for a second and then lost my nerve and slowed down!
Yup, I got a UW plate holder as well.....hehe and my UW student ID to boot if the State Patrol pulls me over around Madison.....
I've got it to 110mph in Chicagoland but yup I freaked out and I slowed down.....it's at 2am so pls don't flame me for being irresponsible. One note though, the car is rock solid and smooth at 110mph. I know I was going fast but didn't know it's THAT fast till I looked at the speedo :>
Driving from Rockford into Chicago on the NW Tollway on Friday at 3:30 pm! What a huge mistake. I knew I should have stayed on 39 down to Bloomington/Normal and then taken 80 (Iwas headed for Dayton,Ohio). Took 3.5 hrs to get from about 10 miles out of Chicago to Gary,Ind.A minivan was stalled on the Expressway(at Adams St.) virtually in the heart of Chicago, w/no shoulder, just stuck there w/hood open! I can't imagine a worse place to break down! I have never been in a heavier jam than that. The Audi held up well, showing 103F on the outside temp. gauge,(this was last July) didn't overheat, and once I made it through Gary, the traffic thinned out, and I made good time to Indianapolis and on to Dayton,Ohio! I pity you Chicagoland drivers if this is the kind of traffic you put up with every day....
On a Friday at 3:30 your only hope to get from just outside NW Chicago to Indiana in less than 3 hours is to take the Tri-State Tollway. It'll take you 2 - not exactly fast but yep, we deal with it every day.
My 2002 A4 sport package just turned 5000 miles today and I have been noticing a slight rattling sound from the passenger side of the car when going over bumps. I know a slightly harsher feel is expected with the sport suspension, but I have a feeling something may be loose within the door panel. have any other owners experienced this? josh
When are new A4 owners getting their first oil change? I am curious if most are following the maintenance schedule and getting it done at 10k or doing it earlier. I've read in past posts that some did the first at 5k and then every 10k after that. I've got 2k on my new A4 and am considering playing it safe and getting the oil changed at 5k.
The manual calls for the first change at 5000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes sooner. The second is 10,000 miles or an additional 6 months, whichever comes sooner. Then it is 10,000 miles or one year, etc. I did mine at 6 months with 2700 miles one the car. The second at one year with 7500 miles on the car. The service adivsor and I have decided I should bring the car in for oil change every 6 months because of the nature of the Tucson environment and the type of driving I do. So I will be paying for every other change.
Yup I did my first oil change at 5k miles and 4 months....then 10k miles and 8 months.....then 15k miles and 11 months....I think Audi's oil change every 10k is a little bit too long....so I'm going to have an oil change every 5k too. The 15k one Audi didn't pay for but my dealership did a "Drain-and-Fill" service for me for free....ask your dealership if they can do that too. I just brought in my Mobil1 Synthetic (everytime) and paid for the oil filter which the dealership charged me for $10. My 20k service is due in 2 weeks and my car is not even 1.25 yrs old.....no problems so far.
I'm sure if Audi advises 10K between oil changes, then the car can probably go 13-15K. The engineers in Ingolstat (SP?) are a pretty smart bunch of guys and they probably know a lot more about cars than I do. BMW advises the first oil change not to be done until 15,000 miles (Synthetic). I was a 3K-5K oil change guy myself (from my Dad). My Saab (Turbo I-4 like the A4 1.8T) owners manual says to change the oil at 1K, 5K, 10K, 20K, 30K...and so on at 10,000 mile intervals. Since I lease the car, I decided to use Saab's oil change interval. It has worked well so far!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Actually, I found Ohio has more cruisers and speed traps than Wisconsin.
I moved from Cleveland, Ohio to Madison, Wisconsin and now I am in Chicago. Yes, you can go very fast here. I found that cars on I-355 (tollway), especially going North are very fast. It states 55MPH but 80+ is normal/average.
I have an A4 1.8T FWD non sport suspension and I don't want the look, I want to drop it a little bit do I have to change the shocks and spring or can I change just the spring.I'm a family man and I don't want the ride to be too stiff.What is the best spring to put? I have the stock 15 rims, and I'm planning to put 17 rims also. thanx
Ask either Joe or Mike Hoppen @ Hoppen Motorsports your question.
I think they told me when I changed out the suspension on a 1997 A8 that I should change both the springs and shocks (struts) -- apparently they work in harmony. Eventually I changed the following:
Springs, struts, front and rear anti-sway bars and tires. Both the handling and the ride improved, plus the car was lowered about one inch. Although I went with wider tires, I kept the original factory 17" wheels.
Joe and Mike Hoppen have very detailed knowlege and also they can sell you the parts you need -- I had them ship the parts directly to the dealer who changed out the components. Also I needed two all-wheel alignments, one immediately and one after 1,000 miles of "settling in."
If you go with "factory" spec sport suspension bits and pieces the ride quality IMO is actually improved. There are some really aggressive sport bits that lower the car over 35mm, stiffen the ride and virtually eliminate body roll -- but the cost is a bone jarring ride on some less than perfect roads.
I also have the non sports suspension and would like it to be lowered and have a tighter ride and yup, I don't want the ride to be punishing. Folks over at AudiWorld comment a lot about NOT doing just the spring because it'll be too punishing for the shocks. They will be dead pretty soon and you spend another $300 or so to swap them out and put new stuff in anyway. The most economical solution is to buy someone's used OEM sports suspension. You can typically get them for about $200 to $300 @ AudiWorld. It'll be lowered by 20mm (not quite an inch) and stiffer. Or if you gonna do the whole works, you can do coilovers which you can adjust the ride height if you decide it's too low. That can get pretty expensive.....like $1,200 or so. Or you can get a whole variety of mix-and-match suspensions like Bilstein/Eibach/H&R/etc.. Go to www.audiworld.com and ask for opinion and pics (that's important).
I brought my 2.7T in to the Audi dealer for servicing yesterday.I asked the service advisor what he thought about the "multitronic" tranny. He said the "multitronic" was more economical, but he didn't like the "lag" on take-off. He feels the "tip" is "sportier" and more "fun to drive." It still sounds like the 6-speed "tip" that Mark mentioned will be the ultimate in transmissions for the Audi enthusiast.
Got a fully loaded (except Nav) 2002 A6 2.7T Tip with only 5k miles as a loaner.....it even got the awesome BBS sport pkg rims on. Very very nice. A little slower than the 02 S4 I test drove before, but it still handles very good. It got the features that I want my 01.5 A4 to have and the power to play with the big boys. The one thing I don't like is the Tip tranny that doesn't hold 1st gear. If I accelerate moderately it shifts to 2nd at around 2500rpm! The other gears hold though so that's good.
Now let's hope I can get used to my own car when I get it back this evening.
That sounds strange that the 2.7T w/"tip" won't hold 1st gear. Audi must have changed the 1st gear issue in the name of fuel economy. My '00 2.7T w/"tip" will hold 1st all the way to red line before it will "auto" shift.
MMMM.....well the car is still in the garage so let me try it out again.....but I saw it and my coworker verified that. I'll also put it in D and S and see if there's any difference.
The thing is, I remember it'll "auto" shift at the redline from 1st to 2nd only if you floor it. If you just tap it, the engine will get to like 3-4k rpm and then "auto" shift.
something that would be done for gas mileage/emissions, like with the Corvette 6-speed, which will force you to skip 2nd unless you pretty much have it floored.
I've been migrating toward buying an A4 for the past few weeks. I actually had decided to get a 325i, and was about to start the shopping process, when a friend of mine got a new Passat that is beautiful. It got me started thinking about the A4, and now I'm leaning in that direction. It's just so much car for the money, especially with the 1.8T.
I was going to get the 1.8T, pretty loaded up, with FWD, for about $29,000. Then I read about the so called "lag" of the CVT at launch. I can't get a manual, so I'm stuck with the CVT if I go with FWD. I'm also a little wary of the new-to-the-USA technology from a reliability standpoint. I don't need quattro for inclement weather, I hate to add the weight, and I'd rather put the $1,700 toward options like Bose, Xenon, and metallic paint.
Nevertheless, I'll probably get quattro, just so I can have the tiptronic in lieu of CVT. This pushes the price over $30,000, which is getting closer to the 325i, and is still alot for a four cylinder.
What do you guys think of the 1.8T w/quattro and tip? Does it ever feel under powered? Do you really feel the whole 166 lb/ft of torque at 2000 RPM? How is it with the AC on? I'm mostly in my car alone, so I don't much care about how it drives with a load (unless you consider a set of golf clubs a load).
Will instantly shift out of first gear in full tip mode unless the pedal is pushed hard or to the floor -- when I get a 2.8 A6 for instance, however, I notice it will hold 1st gear until red line or until the driver up shifts.
Ticks me off, in my 4.2 when I sometimes want to remain in 1st gear a bit longer to keep the revs up, but don't really want to floor it. Example, if you are accelerating onto a freeway and "may" need power, but may not need to floor it, you end up flooring it at the "merge opportunity" and then wait for that tiptronic split second lag as it shifts to first gear -- well, it is at the very least annoying, it seems to take a lot of what could be fun out of the tip. It is saying, I know better than you, bubba.
Another reason I want a manual transmission or a six speed tiptronic.
Hey everyone... <<sigh>> I have been really busy lately, so I haven't been able to post anything, not to mention the fact that there hasn't really been that much to post. Lately, I have had to deal with insurance people and all that crap from my accident that happened in the beginning of January! There are all these ridiculous things popping up now, and I thought I could finally forget about it, but nope, things just keep coming up. Anyway, as you may recall, I was supposed to get my A4 1.8t at the end of last month, but things fell through. I was also supposed to learn stick, but I ended up getting only a half hour lesson from my friend because he was really busy (although, I do feel more comfortable with it already now- much in part to all the postings and advice you guys gave me previously. Thanks!). So let's see, what's new... well, while I was in the bay area, I checked out one of the dealerships there, expecting the prices to be much more expensive than LA. Surprisingly though, I walked away putting a deposit on a car! They gave me almost the same price that I had found in LA-- 4.5% over invoice, but the only difference was that they included an ad fee to their cost, which was unfortunately passed on to me. I told them that I wasn't charged that fee in LA, so they gave me the car for 31K flat. (Just a little over what I could have gotten here in LA). (Goes to show that there really is a big difference if you buy at the end of the month.) They had a car coming in with the exact specs I wanted, but it would be around a 7-10 days wait, they said. That wasn’t a huge problem for me seeing as how at that point, I was going to drive down to LA within a few hours, and I’d be coming back to they bay area soon anyway. Now the thing is, I'm going up there again this weekend, and it's supposed to be available by then... but the guy at the dealership called me yesterday and said that there was slightly bad news-- the car I was supposed to get didn't make it onto the ship it was supposed to (or something like that), so it would take even longer. I’m going up again for memorial weekend, so I’ll have to wait till then to pick it up. It just seems like nothing is going the way it was supposed to, but I guess now this gives me more time to learn stick, since I haven't really had a good chance to do that either. argh... All I can do is wait I guess... very anxiously... I'm supposed to get another "lesson" from my friend this weekend, but we'll see how that goes and if that even happens. I found one place here that rents manual cars... but only mr2 spyders and boxsters, and it's not cheap. I was thinking of renting the mr2 this week, but that was because I thought I would have to drive my car home this weekend. And that’s another thing. Right when I get my car (in a couple weeks), I have to drive it down about 400 miles to LA. I know people have different opinions about the break-in period for this car, and everyone says it’s very easy and smooth to drive, but I’m kind of nervous At that point, I won’t be very proficient at manual yet, and I’ll be driving for 5 hours, possibly by myself, and it’s a completely new car. Is this going to be bad for my new car? I mean, having to drive it through the mountains (Grapevine) and all that? I thought I would be ok driving it back, but then I was speaking to my friend, and I started getting nervous again because she was really nervous for me. What do you guys think? I mean it’ll definitely give me some “quality time” with my new car (heh heh). I’ll get to know it a loooot better after driving it for 5 hours straight. Anyway, this is going to turn into a novel soon, so I better stop writing just wanted to let you guys know what was up with my situation, and once again ask for input. Oh yeah another thing (sorry) the guy at the dealership said he’d throw in something from the parts dept. for me, since I had to wait longer and whatnot What does he mean by that? I mean, like what would he give me? And if he asks me what I want I have no idea Anyone have experience with this? Thanks!
Whether or not quattro and Tip suit you depends entirely on your driving style. I have a 1.8T Avant with Tip and have yet to feel that the car does not have enough power - it pulls better and has more "oomph" than the V6 220HP SUV I used to drive. OTOH, that same opinion will get me laughed off the boards at AudiWorld where the performance crowd hangs out. the only way to know is to drive one. Your post also sounds like you haven't driven the CVT either. Try it. The feel of acceleration and the perception of power is highly subjective (I remember thinking that my old 90HP '88 Sentra had plenty of power, but that was primarily because it replaced an '80 Omni powered by gerbils).
Diana- I'm no mechanic, but I believe there are only a few ways to kill a car during the break in, and a few mays for someone inexperienced with a manual shifter to ruin the transmission. There is no shortage of opinions on what to do during break-in, but the one constant agreed on is don't run the engine at high speeds or near the redline. Both of those factors are under your control. As far as the transmission, once you get the knack of shifting without grinding the gears, you have learned what you need to know to keep from hurting the car. i would tend to think that a long drive on the highway would be a better way to "practice" than around town - stop and go driving, especially on hills, is the tough way to learn a stick. If you're worried, try to cajole a friend into going with you. Who would turn down a California road trip in a new Audi in the Spring
I have an '02 A6 3.0 CVT it is possibly the best transmission I have experienced. I had a 99 A4 1.8T Q 5-speed before that. The CVT does have a 6-speed tip for when you want to shift yourself with no delay and it will take every gear to the red-line and keep it in a particular gear as well. Great transmission, drive it.
The W8 Passat -- TODAY (2002 model) -- costs about the same as a "comparable" A4 3.0.
The Passat, IMO, has always leaned more to the A6 than the A4 -- several of my friend's going so far as to call them A5's. One of my friend's traded his 98 A6 2.8 in on a 2002 Passat GLX 4Motion -- says they are comparable.
The W8 Passat for 2003 will have a 6spd manual available and a sport package available, too.
It should sticker at $38+K with a 270HP 8 cylinder engine -- that's less than an A6 3.0 and less even than an all out A4. I believe the Passat was based on a stretched A4 chassis/frame and has used the 1.8T and 2.8 5V engines for at least a couple of years.
The Passat W8 -- and this is my problem -- seems like it may hurt Audi's sales, a sport version with a manual transmission that is between $4K and $10K less than either an A6 3.0 quattro or an A6 2.7T quattro may attract folks (like my ex-Audi owner friend). IT COULD HAPPEN.
VW is "ramping up" the dealers who sell these things in preparation for the VW Phaeton ($70,000) coming next year. While many VW dealers cannot compare to Audi dealers (yet) -- the corporate marching orders are to move VW's products (starting with the Passat) upmarket and do the same to the dealers.
I find this perplexing -- because I can actually see people (new to German cars, and not enamored of BMW's and Mercedes) look at both the Audi and the VW -- relatively speaking, to the uninitiated, the VW is a major bargain.
Also 270 HP from 8 cylinders compared to 220 HP from 6 cylinders -- makes a case of some strength -- especially for those who are not aware of Audi's more sporting heritage and nature.
Moving VW up the price scale is just starting with the W8 and will soon be followed by the Audi A8 "fraternal twin" the Phaeton. The ultimate goal is to differentiate Audi and VW, not so much by price but by owner preference: Audi will be "sporting" luxury and VW will be "classic" (read Mercedes) luxury. They -- over certain models, such as the Passat and the Phaeton -- will compete in price. For at least a couple of years, I'll wager that consumers will buy a sport Passat W8 over an A4 3.0 and / or over an A6 3.0 -- and maybe even over a 2.7T.
My point, as a loyal Audi owner, is to wonder "what are they thinking" as I am sure the Passat will be perceived as both higher performance and content than the Audi (I said perceived) but at a price that makes it difficult to resist.
I couldn't agree with you more, especially since most dealerships are Audi/VW together. I definitely see a Passat/A4 conflict at the sport end. A loaded A4 3.0 Quattro with Sport Package & a 6 speed or the Passat W8 4Motion with Sport Suspension & 6 speed (I read it in either edmunds or Motor Trend that the 6 speed & Sport Suspension are coming to the US). One thing also to keep in mind is the relatively low volume (5000 units, sedans & wagons) of the Passat W8 for the US. I wonder if they will bring a Passat V6 4Motion with a 5 speed to our side of the pond.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
ALright so I tried the Tip on my 02 A6 2.7T loaner. NO MATTER how light you tough the gas, it'll skip to the 2nd gear unless you floor it (like Mark said). And I agree with Mark.....I was just trying to get out of the parking garage and need to stop in 100 ft for a red light. I'd not shift but the Tip did. ANd then the light turned green and I floored the gas and then it tediously shifted back to 1st. Not the smoothest if you ask me.
Deedubs, I learned driving manual like 3 yrs before I got the A4. The night that I bought mine (yup last day of the month), I drove it home, through local roads and highway and what not for an hour. It's not that easy to kill the engine with a stick you know. And if you do, it's no big deal. Just try to think what you did wrong and don't do it again. When the salesguy says he'd throw in something from the parts dept, more likely they'll give you some cosmetic stuff like polished exhaust tips (don't know if it's still offered or come std on 02), allweather floor mats, or even maybe an Audi sweatshirt or a coffee mug. I'd definitely go for the floor mats (for the snow here).
bluetrane: I am going to test drive the A4 tomorrow. I think they have only one FWD w/CVT (and its a 3.0) at the dealership I am going to, so it won't be a really fair test drive. I live in Pittsburgh, with moderate winters (alot of cold, with not that much snow). I don't think I've ever seen a FWD Audi A4 or A6 on the road. This ought to be interesting.
Lately, I've learned not to hang out where the gearheads hang. While those guys are pretty smart, in their eyes, if you don't have 45 series summer tires and a manual transmission, you might as well be driving a Buick. The "performance guys" over on the 3-series board are pretty hardcore, (and pretty persuasive),...they had me about to buy a 325i w/SP and no PP. This would have necessitated buying winter tires, extra aftermarket rims, and trying to negotiate with the dealer to get me the stupid 3-series armrest that isn't standard on the 325i, and isn't available as an option - big pain in the butt. After much gut wrenching, I've concluded that while the 3-series w/SP is the ultimate driving machine,...an A4 w/out SP and with optional 16" wheels, is "sportier" than a 325i w/out SP, IMHO, of course. With the 3-series, it just seems like its all or nothing with either luxury or performance,...and "all" of both, costs way more than I want to spend. The A4 is much more moderate. That may stink in a politician or a voter, but its not bad in a sport-luxury car.
Mark: I agree totally w/your confusion over VW/Audi marketing strategy. It seemed to me that it was much cleaner when the Passat was a more luxury-oriented car (without performance options and big wheels, etc.), and Audi was more of a "sports sedan". Will ESP and Brake Assist be offered on the VW? To me, that was another big factor separating BMW and Audi from the Passat, especially since, from a design, quality, and refinement standpoint, the Passat is the equal of both of them.
Guys: Are you sure that the W8 Passat is coming here with manual? I remember reading the press release for that car over on Audiworld and the reporter who was in Germany test driving a preproduction model stated 0-60 times for a Tip and Manual and then added that the manual won't be coming to the good old USA. I would think they wouldn't allow a manual here precisely for the reasons you both cite, basically it would cut Audi's throat. That is why the Passat with 4motion does not come in a manual here now, so as not to undercut the A4/A6 offerings. If a W8 does make it to our shores with manual and 4motion I would not only have to test drive one but have to consider it as an option when new car time rolls around. Any thoughts on what the W8 status is or what your impressions are of this move by VW, lets hear them! Brian
There is one other big factor to consider when comparing a Passat to an A4/A6: Cache. When all is said and done, while a Passat is bigger, just as well built, and just as luxurious as an A4 (and the same size roughly as an A6), it still has a big "VW" on the steering wheel and grille,...as opposed to four rings, a three-pointed star, or the BMW logo.
That means something to most of us who frequent these boards. Call me shallow, but if I wasn't in this for at least a little "prestige factor", I'd probably stick with a Nissan.
While I personally agree -- the potential $10,000 delta (when compared with an Audi A6 2.7T or less when compared with an A6 3.0) may get someone's attention who is not already one of the Audi converted (like me).
Pretty funny.....it's about a dad "racing" in his Passat W8 4Motion with his son on his bike. And the line says, "THe Passat W8....it depends on how you use the car" or something like that. Pretty interesting.
I don't quite think VW will spend the money to qualify a W8 Passat with a manual. I don't know their sales target, but I would expect they can't move as many units as a V6 Passat 4Motion, so why spend the extra money to qualify a W8 Passat with a manual thru EPA and DOT? Plus yes, it'd eat into Audi's butter and cream, although VW doesn't seem to mind using the a 180hp version of the 1.8T in the VW line and the 170hp version on the A4 1.8T.
Have you even driven a W8 yet ? it looks very impressive on PAPER, but the ride is very lack luster. Unless the 6 speed is installed and more is done to distinguish it from a 1.8T Veedub i would not at all be concerned about hurting the Audi line.
Like pierce said the bottom line is popping 38k for VW is going to hard to swallow.
I have been in a plane, on the runway, fourth in line for take off and not had the plane get off the ground -- it happens -- but rarely. Likewise, with respect to the W8 manual all my sources tell me that YES there will be a sport packaged W8 with a 6spd manual transmission, 17" low profile tire and special sport wheels. The German website allows the configuration of said W8 with recaro seats, sat nav plus and alcantara interior -- a la Audi!
I do not think the full treatment will come here -- wait for the Phaeton for that. But if you think 38K is a lot for a VW what do you think of a 70K VW?
My USofA sources tell me that for 2003 there WILL be a sported up, tarted up, manual tranny W8 -- and you are right about such a vehicle possibly eating into the Audi market a little bit.
You see there is a school of thought that says (and this applies only to the Passat at the present time) the VW Passat GLX w/4Motion and NOW the W8 is a "poor person's Audi."
OK, if this line of thinking has any merit whatsoever -- here goes:
1. a twenty something husband and/or wife (probably white collar) with some post high school education, probably even a college degree and an up and coming career -- wants a German "family" sport sedan and can't afford a BMW or Audi and won't consider an Avalon or Camry -- well, the Passat is a very nice high value entre into the "family."
2. Said late twenty something early thirty something VW customer now with a few more dollars in his/her pocket wants to "move up" -- there is no VW to move up to and many who buy VW's don't automatically cross over into the Audi family. But on one of their visits to the new VW showrooms (coming soon) they see W8's, Phaetons and even a pretty glitzy SUV, well then they might stay in the fold and buy the W8, the SUV or some thing else that VW brings out in the post 2004 time frame with MSRP's starting with a 4.
By this time the Audi and VW marquis are separated much less by price and more by "image" -- the sporty Audis at prices from $30K - $90K and the classic luxury VW's at prices from $25K to $80K.
VW aims at Mercedes customers, Audi aims at BMW's. Audi comes out with a true sports car at over $60K and VW keeps upping the content and luxury to be 95% of a Mercedes in content at 80% of the price.
Will this work? Heck if I knew that I could quit my job and sell my company and I could become a automotive market and product analyst. I am repeating what I have read and synthesized over the past 2 years.
Don't look down your nose at VW -- people said the same things about Lexus when they first came out "an uppity Toyota -- who do they think they are, trying to compete with the high buck Germans" -- people no longer look down their noses at Lexus and the laughing is virtually gone.
Will VW be able to pull off a "Lexus" in the marketplace? Beats me. But I will NOT bet AGAINST them.
I have driven a 2001(.5)? Passat GLX 2.8 w/4Motion. It is in some ways very Audi-like. The hunk of money put into the upcoming products may not gaurantee success and it may not ever convince any one of us to speak with great respect about the Peoples Car -- but I kinda think that Dr. Piech and his successors "ain't no dummies!"
I pretty close to buying a 1.8TQ, but I'm split on whether to go for the tip or the manual transmission.
From test driving both types, there seems to be a huge difference in gearing between the transmissions. The manual revs much higher on highway speeds. I'm curious about the fuel savings on the manual because of the high revs. Does anyone know what kind of fuel economy does the manual and automatic get at around 80mph?
Also, the tip transmission seemed a little sluggish accelerating from a stop. Is this because of the learning transmission or does it lag in low rpms?
Yes the Tip feels much slower even on pre02 A4 1.8T's. Remember the turbo doesn't spin up to full torque till 2000rpm. The Tip tends to hover around 1000-1500rpm when your right foot is not at work.....and when you need power, it certainly takes a few seconds to get up to the "sweet zone", or from 2000rpm till 4500rpm. With a manual you can keep it at around 2000-2500rpm and when power is needed the turbo is at your service right away.
Comments
I'm especially fussy about my vehicle, and I think dealers,(if they want to have a long term relationship w/customer) should take notes,keep a profile of Audi enthusiasts like me that require more explanations, service,expectations than the average customer, and are "prepared" when a "pain in the butt" like me comes in!
And Mark, I think your dealership is doing all those cuz you bought from them so many times in the last 24 yrs.....they appreciate your business and they want more from you obviously :> I don't know if they'll do the same to ALL their clients....
Billy
LAUK0DG-You hit it on the head, Billy! Not to knock Mark, but they know he is a "preferred" customer and his service and attention level at his dealership is different then yours or mine. All I am saying is that excellent service should be across the board... to marleybarr, you and I and all of us in this so called "Family". Ok, end of rant!
Brian
Driving from St.Paul to Chicago is indeed a lesson in frustration. On a clear day, light traffic, good roads... you feel like bringing the Audi up to about 110mph to make some good time, however reality sets in and you force yourself to keep it at 5 over the 65mph limit in Wisconsin. Then you see everyone but trucks passing you until 20 miles down the road, a Wis. State trooper has one of those guys who passed you up pulled over.Oh well, I'll keep it at 70 or 71 or 72 and keep my driving record clear!!!
We have been doing business with our dealer (virtually, but not 100%) exclusively since 1977 (when we bought a 1978 Audi 5000). Over time we became not only customers but friends of the owner and employees of the dealership. And, while our relationship is genuine, I am certain it does help. Indeed, when the sales manager retired, my wife and I continued to socialize with him and his wife. When the owner, at age 60, cashed in and sold the dealership, we continued our relationship and were even invited to his daughter's wedding.
So we are, as you can see, literally friends of the dealership. We would like to be our dealer's best customer -- and as far as I can tell our dealer would like to be our best dealer. It is a two-way street. I have been at the dealership and have seen customers treat the employees so badly that it makes me wonder what they (the customers) are thinking. Winning through intimidation rarely works. And, it doesn't make for good customer relations (and again, it is a two way street).
I often wonder what would happen if the customers would revolt and "strive -- as if in competition -- to be the best customers they can be?" Hearing -- admittedly from the dealers perspective -- how many times customers try to take advantage of the dealer, lie to the dealer and basically look at the dealer as an adversary it makes me wonder how any employee of most dealerships, who comes into contact with often rude, demanding customers, isn't completely jaundiced.
You get more done with persuasion than intimidation -- at least that has been my experience.
Oh yea, when someone at the dealership does something, anything, correctly or to your satisfaction -- write the boss a note and tell him/her so. Wait until you see what happens next time you're in their store!
Well you can make up all your lost time once you cross the border into IL....you know how we drive in Chicagoland.....55mph speed limit, trucks go at 70mph and cars go at 75mph to 80mph. There are some speed traps but then everyone knows where they are so it's useless.....and they won't pull people over during rush hour cuz people like to slow down and see what's going on ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HIGHWAY.....that pisses me off so bad. However, watch out for unmarked cruisers.....and they're not just the normal Impalas or Crown Vics....I've seen a white Mustang, and black Grand Prix (!!) and a black Camaro pulling people over.....and that's not the only unmarked cars.
Billy
How about changing the laws so we have one day per month w/ no speedlimits? Has anyone actually brought an Audi up to the "limiter" speed of about 125mph? I have come up to about 107 mph for a second and then lost my nerve and slowed down!
I've got it to 110mph in Chicagoland but yup I freaked out and I slowed down.....it's at 2am so pls don't flame me for being irresponsible. One note though, the car is rock solid and smooth at 110mph. I know I was going fast but didn't know it's THAT fast till I looked at the speedo :>
Billy
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Billy
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
DL
I moved from Cleveland, Ohio to Madison, Wisconsin and now I am in Chicago. Yes, you can go very fast here. I found that cars on I-355 (tollway), especially going North are very fast. It states 55MPH but 80+ is normal/average.
thanx
I think they told me when I changed out the suspension on a 1997 A8 that I should change both the springs and shocks (struts) -- apparently they work in harmony. Eventually I changed the following:
Springs, struts, front and rear anti-sway bars and tires. Both the handling and the ride improved, plus the car was lowered about one inch. Although I went with wider tires, I kept the original factory 17" wheels.
Joe and Mike Hoppen have very detailed knowlege and also they can sell you the parts you need -- I had them ship the parts directly to the dealer who changed out the components. Also I needed two all-wheel alignments, one immediately and one after 1,000 miles of "settling in."
If you go with "factory" spec sport suspension bits and pieces the ride quality IMO is actually improved. There are some really aggressive sport bits that lower the car over 35mm, stiffen the ride and virtually eliminate body roll -- but the cost is a bone jarring ride on some less than perfect roads.
Drive it like you live.
Billy
Now let's hope I can get used to my own car when I get it back this evening.
Billy
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
The thing is, I remember it'll "auto" shift at the redline from 1st to 2nd only if you floor it. If you just tap it, the engine will get to like 3-4k rpm and then "auto" shift.
Will report later.
Billy
I was going to get the 1.8T, pretty loaded up, with FWD, for about $29,000. Then I read about the so called "lag" of the CVT at launch. I can't get a manual, so I'm stuck with the CVT if I go with FWD. I'm also a little wary of the new-to-the-USA technology from a reliability standpoint. I don't need quattro for inclement weather, I hate to add the weight, and I'd rather put the $1,700 toward options like Bose, Xenon, and metallic paint.
Nevertheless, I'll probably get quattro, just so I can have the tiptronic in lieu of CVT. This pushes the price over $30,000, which is getting closer to the 325i, and is still alot for a four cylinder.
What do you guys think of the 1.8T w/quattro and tip? Does it ever feel under powered? Do you really feel the whole 166 lb/ft of torque at 2000 RPM? How is it with the AC on? I'm mostly in my car alone, so I don't much care about how it drives with a load (unless you consider a set of golf clubs a load).
Ticks me off, in my 4.2 when I sometimes want to remain in 1st gear a bit longer to keep the revs up, but don't really want to floor it. Example, if you are accelerating onto a freeway and "may" need power, but may not need to floor it, you end up flooring it at the "merge opportunity" and then wait for that tiptronic split second lag as it shifts to first gear -- well, it is at the very least annoying, it seems to take a lot of what could be fun out of the tip. It is saying, I know better than you, bubba.
Another reason I want a manual transmission or a six speed tiptronic.
Anyway, as you may recall, I was supposed to get my A4 1.8t at the end of last month, but things fell through. I was also supposed to learn stick, but I ended up getting only a half hour lesson from my friend because he was really busy (although, I do feel more comfortable with it already now- much in part to all the postings and advice you guys gave me previously. Thanks!).
So let's see, what's new... well, while I was in the bay area, I checked out one of the dealerships there, expecting the prices to be much more expensive than LA. Surprisingly though, I walked away putting a deposit on a car! They gave me almost the same price that I had found in LA-- 4.5% over invoice, but the only difference was that they included an ad fee to their cost, which was unfortunately passed on to me. I told them that I wasn't charged that fee in LA, so they gave me the car for 31K flat. (Just a little over what I could have gotten here in LA). (Goes to show that there really is a big difference if you buy at the end of the month.) They had a car coming in with the exact specs I wanted, but it would be around a 7-10 days wait, they said. That wasn’t a huge problem for me seeing as how at that point, I was going to drive down to LA within a few hours, and I’d be coming back to they bay area soon anyway. Now the thing is, I'm going up there again this weekend, and it's supposed to be available by then... but the guy at the dealership called me yesterday and said that there was slightly bad news-- the car I was supposed to get didn't make it onto the ship it was supposed to (or something like that), so it would take even longer. I’m going up again for memorial weekend, so I’ll have to wait till then to pick it up. It just seems like nothing is going the way it was supposed to, but I guess now this gives me more time to learn stick, since I haven't really had a good chance to do that either. argh... All I can do is wait I guess... very anxiously... I'm supposed to get another "lesson" from my friend this weekend, but we'll see how that goes and if that even happens. I found one place here that rents manual cars... but only mr2 spyders and boxsters, and it's not cheap. I was thinking of renting the mr2 this week, but that was because I thought I would have to drive my car home this weekend.
And that’s another thing. Right when I get my car (in a couple weeks), I have to drive it down about 400 miles to LA. I know people have different opinions about the break-in period for this car, and everyone says it’s very easy and smooth to drive, but I’m kind of nervous At that point, I won’t be very proficient at manual yet, and I’ll be driving for 5 hours, possibly by myself, and it’s a completely new car. Is this going to be bad for my new car? I mean, having to drive it through the mountains (Grapevine) and all that? I thought I would be ok driving it back, but then I was speaking to my friend, and I started getting nervous again because she was really nervous for me. What do you guys think? I mean it’ll definitely give me some “quality time” with my new car (heh heh). I’ll get to know it a loooot better after driving it for 5 hours straight. Anyway, this is going to turn into a novel soon, so I better stop writing just wanted to let you guys know what was up with my situation, and once again ask for input.
Oh yeah another thing (sorry) the guy at the dealership said he’d throw in something from the parts dept. for me, since I had to wait longer and whatnot What does he mean by that? I mean, like what would he give me? And if he asks me what I want I have no idea Anyone have experience with this? Thanks!
Whether or not quattro and Tip suit you depends entirely on your driving style. I have a 1.8T Avant with Tip and have yet to feel that the car does not have enough power - it pulls better and has more "oomph" than the V6 220HP SUV I used to drive. OTOH, that same opinion will get me laughed off the boards at AudiWorld where the performance crowd hangs out. the only way to know is to drive one. Your post also sounds like you haven't driven the CVT either. Try it. The feel of acceleration and the perception of power is highly subjective (I remember thinking that my old 90HP '88 Sentra had plenty of power, but that was primarily because it replaced an '80 Omni powered by gerbils).
Diana-
I'm no mechanic, but I believe there are only a few ways to kill a car during the break in, and a few mays for someone inexperienced with a manual shifter to ruin the transmission. There is no shortage of opinions on what to do during break-in, but the one constant agreed on is don't run the engine at high speeds or near the redline. Both of those factors are under your control. As far as the transmission, once you get the knack of shifting without grinding the gears, you have learned what you need to know to keep from hurting the car. i would tend to think that a long drive on the highway would be a better way to "practice" than around town - stop and go driving, especially on hills, is the tough way to learn a stick. If you're worried, try to cajole a friend into going with you. Who would turn down a California road trip in a new Audi in the Spring
The Passat, IMO, has always leaned more to the A6 than the A4 -- several of my friend's going so far as to call them A5's. One of my friend's traded his 98 A6 2.8 in on a 2002 Passat GLX 4Motion -- says they are comparable.
The W8 Passat for 2003 will have a 6spd manual available and a sport package available, too.
It should sticker at $38+K with a 270HP 8 cylinder engine -- that's less than an A6 3.0 and less even than an all out A4. I believe the Passat was based on a stretched A4 chassis/frame and has used the 1.8T and 2.8 5V engines for at least a couple of years.
The Passat W8 -- and this is my problem -- seems like it may hurt Audi's sales, a sport version with a manual transmission that is between $4K and $10K less than either an A6 3.0 quattro or an A6 2.7T quattro may attract folks (like my ex-Audi owner friend). IT COULD HAPPEN.
VW is "ramping up" the dealers who sell these things in preparation for the VW Phaeton ($70,000) coming next year. While many VW dealers cannot compare to Audi dealers (yet) -- the corporate marching orders are to move VW's products (starting with the Passat) upmarket and do the same to the dealers.
I find this perplexing -- because I can actually see people (new to German cars, and not enamored of BMW's and Mercedes) look at both the Audi and the VW -- relatively speaking, to the uninitiated, the VW is a major bargain.
Also 270 HP from 8 cylinders compared to 220 HP from 6 cylinders -- makes a case of some strength -- especially for those who are not aware of Audi's more sporting heritage and nature.
Moving VW up the price scale is just starting with the W8 and will soon be followed by the Audi A8 "fraternal twin" the Phaeton. The ultimate goal is to differentiate Audi and VW, not so much by price but by owner preference: Audi will be "sporting" luxury and VW will be "classic" (read Mercedes) luxury. They -- over certain models, such as the Passat and the Phaeton -- will compete in price. For at least a couple of years, I'll wager that consumers will buy a sport Passat W8 over an A4 3.0 and / or over an A6 3.0 -- and maybe even over a 2.7T.
My point, as a loyal Audi owner, is to wonder "what are they thinking" as I am sure the Passat will be perceived as both higher performance and content than the Audi (I said perceived) but at a price that makes it difficult to resist.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Deedubs, I learned driving manual like 3 yrs before I got the A4. The night that I bought mine (yup last day of the month), I drove it home, through local roads and highway and what not for an hour. It's not that easy to kill the engine with a stick you know. And if you do, it's no big deal. Just try to think what you did wrong and don't do it again. When the salesguy says he'd throw in something from the parts dept, more likely they'll give you some cosmetic stuff like polished exhaust tips (don't know if it's still offered or come std on 02), allweather floor mats, or even maybe an Audi sweatshirt or a coffee mug. I'd definitely go for the floor mats (for the snow here).
Billy
Lately, I've learned not to hang out where the gearheads hang. While those guys are pretty smart, in their eyes, if you don't have 45 series summer tires and a manual transmission, you might as well be driving a Buick. The "performance guys" over on the 3-series board are pretty hardcore, (and pretty persuasive),...they had me about to buy a 325i w/SP and no PP. This would have necessitated buying winter tires, extra aftermarket rims, and trying to negotiate with the dealer to get me the stupid 3-series armrest that isn't standard on the 325i, and isn't available as an option - big pain in the butt. After much gut wrenching, I've concluded that while the 3-series w/SP is the ultimate driving machine,...an A4 w/out SP and with optional 16" wheels, is "sportier" than a 325i w/out SP, IMHO, of course. With the 3-series, it just seems like its all or nothing with either luxury or performance,...and "all" of both, costs way more than I want to spend. The A4 is much more moderate. That may stink in a politician or a voter, but its not bad in a sport-luxury car.
Mark: I agree totally w/your confusion over VW/Audi marketing strategy. It seemed to me that it was much cleaner when the Passat was a more luxury-oriented car (without performance options and big wheels, etc.), and Audi was more of a "sports sedan". Will ESP and Brake Assist be offered on the VW? To me, that was another big factor separating BMW and Audi from the Passat, especially since, from a design, quality, and refinement standpoint, the Passat is the equal of both of them.
Are you sure that the W8 Passat is coming here with manual? I remember reading the press release for that car over on Audiworld and the reporter who was in Germany test driving a preproduction model stated 0-60 times for a Tip and Manual and then added that the manual won't be coming to the good old USA. I would think they wouldn't allow a manual here precisely for the reasons you both cite, basically it would cut Audi's throat. That is why the Passat with 4motion does not come in a manual here now, so as not to undercut the A4/A6 offerings. If a W8 does make it to our shores with manual and 4motion I would not only have to test drive one but have to consider it as an option when new car time rolls around. Any thoughts on what the W8 status is or what your impressions are of this move by VW, lets hear them!
Brian
That means something to most of us who frequent these boards. Call me shallow, but if I wasn't in this for at least a little "prestige factor", I'd probably stick with a Nissan.
I don't quite think VW will spend the money to qualify a W8 Passat with a manual. I don't know their sales target, but I would expect they can't move as many units as a V6 Passat 4Motion, so why spend the extra money to qualify a W8 Passat with a manual thru EPA and DOT? Plus yes, it'd eat into Audi's butter and cream, although VW doesn't seem to mind using the a 180hp version of the 1.8T in the VW line and the 170hp version on the A4 1.8T.
Billy
Like pierce said the bottom line is popping 38k for VW is going to hard to swallow.
DL
I do not think the full treatment will come here -- wait for the Phaeton for that. But if you think 38K is a lot for a VW what do you think of a 70K VW?
My USofA sources tell me that for 2003 there WILL be a sported up, tarted up, manual tranny W8 -- and you are right about such a vehicle possibly eating into the Audi market a little bit.
You see there is a school of thought that says (and this applies only to the Passat at the present time) the VW Passat GLX w/4Motion and NOW the W8 is a "poor person's Audi."
OK, if this line of thinking has any merit whatsoever -- here goes:
1. a twenty something husband and/or wife (probably white collar) with some post high school education, probably even a college degree and an up and coming career -- wants a German "family" sport sedan and can't afford a BMW or Audi and won't consider an Avalon or Camry -- well, the Passat is a very nice high value entre into the "family."
2. Said late twenty something early thirty something VW customer now with a few more dollars in his/her pocket wants to "move up" -- there is no VW to move up to and many who buy VW's don't automatically cross over into the Audi family. But on one of their visits to the new VW showrooms (coming soon) they see W8's, Phaetons and even a pretty glitzy SUV, well then they might stay in the fold and buy the W8, the SUV or some thing else that VW brings out in the post 2004 time frame with MSRP's starting with a 4.
By this time the Audi and VW marquis are separated much less by price and more by "image" -- the sporty Audis at prices from $30K - $90K and the classic luxury VW's at prices from $25K to $80K.
VW aims at Mercedes customers, Audi aims at BMW's. Audi comes out with a true sports car at over $60K and VW keeps upping the content and luxury to be 95% of a Mercedes in content at 80% of the price.
Will this work? Heck if I knew that I could quit my job and sell my company and I could become a automotive market and product analyst. I am repeating what I have read and synthesized over the past 2 years.
Don't look down your nose at VW -- people said the same things about Lexus when they first came out "an uppity Toyota -- who do they think they are, trying to compete with the high buck Germans" -- people no longer look down their noses at Lexus and the laughing is virtually gone.
Will VW be able to pull off a "Lexus" in the marketplace? Beats me. But I will NOT bet AGAINST them.
I have driven a 2001(.5)? Passat GLX 2.8 w/4Motion. It is in some ways very Audi-like. The hunk of money put into the upcoming products may not gaurantee success and it may not ever convince any one of us to speak with great respect about the Peoples Car -- but I kinda think that Dr. Piech and his successors "ain't no dummies!"
I pretty close to buying a 1.8TQ, but I'm split on whether to go for the tip or the manual transmission.
From test driving both types, there seems to be a huge difference in gearing between the transmissions. The manual revs much higher on highway speeds. I'm curious about the fuel savings on the manual because of the high revs. Does anyone know what kind of fuel economy does the manual and automatic get at around 80mph?
Also, the tip transmission seemed a little sluggish accelerating from a stop. Is this because of the learning transmission or does it lag in low rpms?
Thanks,
Roger
Billy
Go for the manual. You won't regret it, but you might regret getting the Tip. JMO.