I have a few friends in Barvaria, their ride ? the lowest optioned , best fuel efficient Passat available.
Toyota did their homework on the American market well .A toyota es300 would not garnish 36k but a "lexus" oh yes, remember the lexus GS400 ? that was gonna blow BMW away ? I havent seen current sales figures but it seems to be a non factor, same with the new G35 they are allready pilling up on lots and 325i and A4 with 100 less HP are selling ....
So would a 3.0 Passat with a slight price increase and save said W8 for some new sheetmetal be a better plan ? who knows. I know i sure am not a Automotive analyst, just some thoughts from a average consumer .
BTW, i would go for the V10 Turbo Diesel with 550lb ft torque
Hey dl7265: How about the V8 from the Bentley Arnage T 450hp@4100 and 645lbft@3250 or from the Bentley Continental Mulliner 420hp@4000 and 650lbft@2200! Where is that tree I need to pull out from my backyard? Brian
Mark and others were right, I was mistaken, the 2.7T w/"tip" will not "hold" in low gear. I use "tip" so rarely I didn't really notice that 1st goes to 2nd w/o driver control. Talking about exterior care, I went through a "touchless" car wash the other day, and later noticed a "gouge" right on the lip of the left front wheel! It must have happened pulling on the "track" of the carwash that pulls you through the facility. Just a warning about the "touchless" car wash that isn't so "touchless", as I found out to my dismay!!
I went through a similar dilemma as you are going through now. I was very interested in the BMI 330 and found the guys (gender neutral) on the 3 series board to have very compelling argument for the BMW. I was very close to going with the BMW but just couldn't get the car configured the way I wanted it without paying a significant premium. So I went with the A4 and got the car equipped exactly the way I wanted it for close to $5,000 less then the BMW. Good luck on your selection process.
Toyota created Lexus and keeps the top of the line Toyotal an Avalon. Lexus -- well we all know what they do. I have been corrected (and I agree) that Audi is analogous to Lexus. And, although I am in agreement -- it is exactly that agreement that makes me wonder what is up other than a deliberate attempt to make Audis and VWs differentiated NOT by price but by "intended market" (the customers).
Unlike Toyota, VW now has a car that is just slightly south of $40K and in the year 2003 will bring out a Phaeton at around $70K -- Toyota does not price the Camry like the Lexus which is based on it. Yet, the Passat is based on a "stretched" A4 and with the 8 cylinder engine will be priced like a 3.0 A4 quattro. The Phaeton, in my opinion, is an Audi A8 with different clothes -- why do this?
So it appears that VW is not going to follow the Toyota example -- they are going to morph VW into a new company -- AS IF Toyota had morphed into Lexus. At least that is what it looks like now.
It appears for the first round of this transformation that the VW and Audi lines will cause market confusion -- it confuses me. I am loyal to Audi, I am planning on a 2 2003 Audi's -- yet the W8 is interesting.
brands into a "sport" division (Audi/Seat/Bentley and Lamborghini) and a "value" division (VW/Skoda) so that Audi will be configured to compete against BMW while VW takes on Fiat Renault, Toyota and Honda.
The good news is more performance-oriented Audis. The bad news potential brand cannibalization.
It's going to be interesting to see how the market reacts to the Passat W8 and the Phaetons.
I can tell you you are not the only Audiphile who is attracted to the W8.
What I read tracks with your comments concerning Audi and Skoda (Seat?), but I read that VW was going to go against Mercedes and be 95% of Mercedes "content" at 80+% of the price -- the net of the CAR magazine article I read was that Audi and VW will be comparably priced sometime after calendar 2004 (perhaps beginning model year 2005). The first two steps have already (mostly) happened. There are "only" 2000 W8 Passats (2002) coming to the US but the 2003 W8 will take another move by offering a 6spd manual and a sport package. Then in first or second quarter of 2003 the $70,000 (yikes) VW Phaeton will come to the US (if you haven't checked lately this is clearly in Mercedes territory -- and of course would appear to compete with BMW on price, too -- most obviously since it is a "quattro" it would seem a direct competitor for the new A8).
I have come to my own conclusion and it appears to be somewhat unpopular (especially over on the Passat Town Hall) -- VW is moving soon (in my terms 3 - 5 years) up market, up price and two cars will be here within 12 months that confuse the heck out of me -- the afforementioned W8 and the Phaeton.
Those on the Passat Town hall cry that $38K is too much for a VW -- apparently because it looks like a $23K and $33K Passat (never mind the engine and a few "minor" bits and pieces).
Of course you can imagine my confusion for this rationale -- the W8 is about $5K more than the current Passat, which is about $10K more than the entry level Passat. Which means that it is ok to pay $33,000 for a car that looks just like one that costs $23K but not an additional $5K for one that looks like one costing $33K. ?
The least expensive A4 compared to the most expensive A4 -- about a $14K spread, correct? I have never seen anyone on the A4 Town hall carp about this delta. So you see my confusion that a VW Passat owner would complain about the lack of differentiation for the money.
Ditto -- with respect to Audi -- a bottom end A6 3.0 and a top end A6 2.7T (I'll exclude the 4.2 because there actually are some body differences).
So I find myself saying the current VW owners must not want VW to push the product up market, up class and of course up price. I also agree with them, initially, that a $70,000 VW in this marketplace may be hard for some folks to swallow and that they may elect to spend their $70K on a more "prestigious" marquis.
I further try -- with only limited success -- to compare what VW is doing with what Toyota did with Lexus, because Lexus is actually a different name -- VW is still planning on calling its cars Volkswagens. While this doesn't particularly bother me, it again seems to cause much consternation with those on the Passat town hall and some with folks here in Audi land.
I am left brained (go figure) so I am trying to find the reason, the details, the methodology that made VW think it could produce the W8 Passat (for instance) and market it in some cases alongside of an Audi A4 3.0 quattro and and Audi A6 3.0 quattro -- the Passat will come off like "it's almost too good to be true."
I believe the seduction that I have felt from the Audi brand is not something that happens in a casual test drive -- it takes time. Heck a lot of people would not even notice that the A4 3.0 quattro sport had all wheel drive unless someone told them (and that is a good thing, I think).
So, I take my mind off of the more mundane pieces of life by trying to figure out why the parent company would take an approach that COULD in any way harm its child (VW being the parent and Audi the child, to be absolutely clear).
I remain confused. But the debates here are engaging.
hfb: Are you 100% satisfied with your purchase? Do you ever have BMW envy? That is what scares me a little,...spending $33,000 and still ending up with BMW envy.
Test drive: I test drove the A4 1.8T and 3.0 last night, both with quattro and tip. The 1.8T was way too slow off the draw for my taste. I noticed a decided delay between when I wanted pull out power, and when the turbo kicked in. The result was I gave it more gas, but when the turbo kicked in, I had to abruptly lift - or at least that's how it felt. I knew a turbo wasn't for me. Bottom line...its the 3.0 for me or no Audi.
The 3.0 was much stronger on pull-out, and road better with the 16" wheels,...the 1.8T I drove had the standard 15's. What I didn't care for was the numerous shifts by the transmission on hills. My Maxima is much smoother in delivering power on hilly roads. I am going to test an A6 3.0 w/CVT next week (they don't have an A4 w/CVT). I may drive the 3.0 A4 again to see if the shifting of the tip still bothers me. Maybe the engine was just tight from being new.
I have to say i dont subscribe to attitudes posted in some threads. In 1999 i started my search wanting a A4 or Passat, i ended up with a 323i Sport. At the time and carsdirect.com deal i got it was the right thing to do then. I say this dont let opinions sway what u want , if its a 3er auto non sport then enjoy it and who cares what anyone thinks. As car enthusiasts sometimes its easy to get carried away, however with allmost 4 years on edmunds its one of the most helpful and civil boards ive found.
Audibon: i learned about torque from my bro in law's 1970 Buick GS Stage 1 455, over 500 ft lb, and for a while owned my own 1968 Buick GS, since im not that mechanically inclined and as emissons get more strick i finally gave in and got with Y2k technology.I just hope i never have to replace a 5k tranny
There is one factor that I fear will doom the VW upmarket adventure - the dealerships. When Toyota begat Lexus, they created an entirely new dealer network, with posh, red carpet treatment. I have been in the local Lexus dealership a few times. It is nicely decorated with soft classical music (saw a guy paying a grand piano once) and lots of unobtrusive salespeople with a "can I help you sir" attitiude. In short, the dealership looks like a place where a person could drop $50-60k on a car. Dealerships for other premium marques look the same. The point is is theat the Lexus dealer can't be confused with a Toyato dealer.
In contrast, the local VW delership looks like every other mass market Ford/Chevy/Honda dealership you have ever been in - big orange "SAVE NOW!" signs painted on the windows, shall we say "functional" decor, and a gaggle of bored looking salespeople standing outside the front door smoking. The sales guy I got knew considerably less about the cars on the lot than I did (which takes some doing). In short, it did not look like a place to buy a $70k car.
I think it takes a very different mentality to sell Jettas and Bugs to twentysomethings and to sell Phaetons to the stock option crowd. Can they pull it off?
Excellent point about dealer service and attitudes. I don't think VW can make the transition either unless they do what the Audi dealers are having to do now and that's retool the dealerships and become standalone entities. The problem becomes as you said how do you cater to a W8 buyer and up vs. a Beetle and Jetta buyer? Off topic somewhat: Does anyone have any sales figures for the new A4 across the entire line? Lately, I am seeing more A6's, S4's and 2001 A4's and very few if any 2002 A4's at all. Is the new body style turning people off, or is it the higher price this year? Possibly the recession has postponed many major purchases. I am, unfortunately, a casualty of this latest round and will be laid off at the end of June. (If not sooner! June was the "official" date.) So, I know that I will be putting off any major purchases well into next year, if at all. Brian
Both Audi and VW dealerships, but especially VW since many Audi dealerships are already considerably down the "Lexus" path, have marching orders from AoA and VWoA to raise their standards. My friend who until recently owned both a VW and an Audi and a Porsche dealership (and VW was 20 miles from the Audi/Porsche store) said that VW has put those dealerships who wish to have signigicant ability to sell W8 Passats and especially Phaetons on notice that they will have to shape up.
I don't know if this means live piano music, but it absolutely means major steps forward and a paradigm shift (god I can't believe I used that word, next I'll be saying bottom feeders) upwards in look (physical plant), service and sales staff professionalism.
There is a beautiful Audi dealer in Dallas (I do not remember the name) that must already be in compliance with this directive. As I recall they had their own Audi boutique and a full line of Audi clothes and leather goods (briefcases, golf accessories, etc.) and Audi accessories. The sales people were more like tailors in a fine clothing store -- they had "nailed it."
Anyway, part of the directive from der fatherland (motherland?) and here on this side of the ocean is to rachet up the dealerships -- big time (and BTW they have very little time to do it, something on the order of "by 2002 end").
If I am not 100% accurate in every detail, I am confident that the spirit of what I said is true.
will result in dealers being very reluctant to discount any product. Of course the market will have a lot to say about whether VAG's strategies make any sense. I have my doubts.
I had word from my dealer that my car was in production this week. Do you remember how things followed through for you after you received that news? Thanks and biding my time--
I agree w/ some of the other posts about "morphing" VW dealers. I brought my '00 2.7T to the local Audi dealer for service- you pull into a (atleast) $5 million building that is modeled after Audi Headquarters in Germany. There is a separate, but just as large building for Porsche. The atmosphere is like pulling into a luxury hotel in Las Vegas.The place is the most luxurious, deluxe dealership in Mpls./St.Paul, of any brand of vehicle. I don't see how VW dealers, (or anyone else), here can sell $70,000 vehicles in the atmosphere that they now present to the customer.
the Phaeton. I think they're realistic enough to know they won't sell many.
I'm predicting that now that Piech is gone they'll withdraw the car after a few years, perhaps to rebadge it (Horch? Auto Union?) and sell it thru the Audi network.
Read post 3582 (on the Passat town hall, not here) for the full detail of the VW dealership transformation requirements.
A friend of the Town Hall (VWGUILD) who is himself involved in a VW dealership, and therefore very credible, has detailed what VW dealers of the not too distant future must do, in effect, to remain in business.
The interesting thing about this is that the "standards of dealer excellence" were crafted by the dealers themselves.
Now if this will pan out is anyone's guess -- but make no mistake, the VW dealers ARE (or soon will be) morphing into (for lack of a better description) "Lexus-like" establishments for the sales and servicing of fine German cars with the VW logo and Audi prices. The Phaeton and the W8 Passat may confuse the heck out of us for the next several model years -- but they are meant to be the first volley of a grand scheme to attack Mercedes and be "on-par" (mostly) price wise with Audi. Apparently a $70,000 VW is a stake in the ground -- even if, temporarily, it seems to us (me at least) like it will compete with Audi's upcoming A8 (the S8 and the Phaeton from what I can tell are not intended to be seen as interchangable -- and truth be told, the Phaeton and the A8 probably aren't either -- it just works out that way for 2003, 04 and 05).
Speaking of Audi dealerships -- had very positive experience in Lujack (Davenport, IA/IL). The sales people I dealt with (Dennis and Tim) were ultimately patient, courteous, and non-pushy, and I would dare say supportive. Grand piano was not there for me (or maybe it was?), but well... I came to look at the car, and was shown anything I wanted, at the pace I wanted; and when one of them had a day-off he made sure I will be taken care of by another. No cheesy stuff, just very constructive.
It has been five months since I bought a car from them, and they still following up with e-mails, which I really don't answer... But last week I called Dennis asking him to connect me to a proper technical person, as I had several technical questions/inquiries. Instead, he took my questions and came back to me with the answers himself. I call it good care.
Note for those who are looking for reasons, patterns and trends: these guys also sell Mercedes, Jaguar, Porshe, and maybe something else in that ...ummmm... class.
Jill - I never got the "in production" notice - just a phone call that said that the car would be in at the end of the week (about a month sooner than I expected). People over on AudiWorld are saying it usually takes about 4-6 weeks from when the car is actually built to delivery. Patience is a difficult thing. If it helps, I am still absolutely thriled with my car (IIRC we will have pretty much identical cars).
The VW thing - they may be able to pull it off. It is within my memory (barely) when Japanese cars in general were considered cheap, inferior knock-offs. When I was a kid, someone on my street had a dinky Honda with a 3 cylinder engine. Now Japan is seen as the source of quality and reliability. Who knows?
I wouldn't say I have BMW envy - when I see one on the road, I still think they are a great looking car and if money were not a factor I might have purchased the 330xi. I have only had my A4 for one week and am completely happy with my decision. I started my search for a new car with the A4 as I have always been a big fan of Audi. I then found myself sidetracked when I decided to test drive a BMW and was very impressed with its quality build and drive feel. I then came back to A4 as I was able to get; 1) better AWD system, 2) AWD with sport suspension and wider sport tires, 3) more content for less (close to a $5000 difference). I think for me I probably always wanted to get the A4 and just was diverted by the BMW for awhile. If you think you will have BMW envy then I suggest you buy one so you don't end up beating yourself up every time you see one wishing you had a different car then the one you purchased. In the end I think the A4 and the BMW 3er are both great cars that are a blast to drive.
I think a big issue w/ the W8 will be interior quality. I haven't seen one yet, the local VW dealers (St.Paul,MN.) just received them in stock. A major issue w/ me would be how the rear seats fold down to the trunk. The Audi gives great access to the trunk, I know that the standard 4-motion Passat only gives a "pass-through" tunnel to the trunk area. What does a fully loaded W8 cost? I tried to locate options on Edmunds but none were shown.
I own the '02 3.0 with the CVT transmission. I turned in my 99 A4 1.8T Q for the A6 and while there is a difference without the quattro the CVT transmission is absolutely amazing. Shifts are imperceptible and it as fast if not faster than a manual (they have done extensive testing in Europe that validates this). If you do not need Quattro or can wait untill next year(when quattro's get the CVT) I would highly recommend this car. THis is the first time in 15 years I have not had at least one manual car in the family and with this transmission I do not miss it. If you put it in the tiptronic mode it will take each gear to the redline and hold it in the gear you are in. Absolutely fantastic. This is the future of transmissions!!
Thanks for your CVT experience. Sounds quite revolutionary. I wonder whether some people are holding back waiting to see whether serious problems develop with this new technology. CVT's apparently have been used on small engines, but this is the first time they've been used on larger engines. Wonder whether problems will develop down the line. But your experiences so far have all been positive. Wonder whether the transmission feels like "fluid drive" of Chrysler or Dynaflow of Buick 50 years ago--no gear shifts
Sent me an e-mail, said the Nav system for '03 would have new software, but hardware would be virtually identical to '02. This was in answer to the question on the A6, to clarify.
I don't know why we can't seem to get the good stuff here!
I know this will get a chuckle out of most of you out there...I'm not in any way a car expert, but after doing some research I've pretty much settled on a new Audi.
I currently have a '94 Altima GXE, and I know I want an A4. My Altima has a 2.5 engine, and I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to be disappointed if I get the 1.8 rather than going for the bigger 3.0.
I've test driven the 1.8 on the highway, and it seemed peppy enough for me. I never learned to drive a manual, so my new car will need to be an automatic.
Any advice out there you can give me? The 3.0 is a bit out of my price range, but I don't want to be making a mistake...thanks!
Coming from a 1994 Altima, you will not be dissapointed with the A4 1.8T. It is a great all around car. You sure we can't convince you to buy a car with a manual? The A4 w/ Quattro is one of the easiest stick shifts to drive on the road today. Quattro makes it simple to launch the car (the toughest part of learning to drive a stick). Good luck and happy hunting.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
mtb22203: I test drove the A4 1.8T w/auto. I didn't like it. If you have never had a turbo charged engine, you will notice the lag between when you want power on pullout, and when the turbo spools up around 2000 RPM. I'm kind of a lazy driver most of the time, and I like smooth power delivery - almost like a V-8 feel, so maybe I'm not a good person to comment. I don't spend much time in the upper RPM range. I just like these German cars for the way they handle on turns and way they look and feel.
That said, I'm driving an A6 CVT tonight. I'll let you guys know what I think. I think the reason we haven't seen many A4's on the road is because they are still pretty scarce. Also, you won't see many CVT's, because there are very few FWD Audis on the road, and CVT is only available with FWD. Personally, I've got nothing against FWD, like many on the 3-series board, and I surely don't need quattro for bad weather driving. I can get around fine w/FWD, and I'd rather spend the money on luxury options.
mtb22203: I own both a 94 Altima GLE and a 2001 A4 1.8t quattro manual. I find the A4 generally quicker (over 2500 rpms and on the highway) and it's a much smoother engine at all speeds. You're not making a mistake by sticking with the 1.8, tiptronic or manual. After my Altima was paid for, I told my wife our next car had to be a smooth v-6, but the 1.8 turbo has been fantastic.
Thanks for the info guys...you've helped me with my decision. I'm now planning on buying the 1.8 A4 over Memorial Day weekend...hopefully I can get some good deals then!
Definitely wait till the end of the month to seal the deal. I did mine on Feb 28 last year and got a good deal cuz my salesguy wanted to make his quota.
I drove an A6 CVT last night. First let me say the A6 is one pleasant cruiser, if it is out of my price range. I was truly impressed with the CVT. There did appear to be the slightest of lag on some pull-outs (I drove the salesman crazy with pulling into parking lots so that I could pull back out on the road). This was far less noticeable than the turbo lag of the 1.8T Tip.
I think (hope!) this lag would be reduced even further in a lighter A4. Otherwise, this has to be the best automatic transmission in the world. It is much smoother than the Tip when downshifting on a hill. It also delivers kick-downs at speed that you can hardly notice. I noticed no big tachometer jumps during shifting, like is common w/automatics.
The CVT also seems to work great in tiptronic mode. It seemed to shift more like a manual in this mode than either the tiptronic, or my brother's steptronic 323. Its still not the same as a clutch, but it seemed like I'd want to use it more than the Tiptronic I drove.
Bottom line: This convinced me that if I get an A4 3.0, it will be FWD with CVT. I have no qualms about this transmission at all. And, I can save $1,700 by not getting quattro, which pays for xenon, Bose and metallic paint if I choose to go that route.
This time for a blown Bose speaker on the passenger's side on the front door. Was playing CD's this past weekend and all of a sudden noticed the artists seemed to be singing without clearing their throats. Took the car in and they diagnosed it as "buzzing speaker". Got the Bose speaker replaced the same day. I didn't get the A6 2.7T loaner though.....instead got a 2003 Toyota Corolla.....pretty decent car for less than $15k.
And it's almost at 20k now.....minor problems so far, and loving the car even more. Weird, isn't it.
hello folks, can u please tell me what is included with the free maintenence that audi gives u besides oil changes and for how long.iam considering a a4quatroo turbo with tiptronic and a nissan altima so your help here would be appreciated
I hesitated buying an Audi or any complex German engineered car for that matter because of reliability and expensive service needs. Well, I made a big mistake. Audi A4 owners, if you have a vibration or a knocking noise in the front end (or both in my case) take it in now while it's under warranty. This is a major problem with A4s. Right now I'm just out of warranty and my "Check Airbag" light is on. I didn't know I had an airbag in my seat. "That'll be $600 please." Forget it!!! I like driving this car but ever since I've owned it, they fix one problem and another one comes up. I'm seriously considering the Infinity G35.
I'm doing a comparo back-to-back test drive of the 325i and the A4 3.0 on Saturday at Three Rivers Motorcars outside of Pittsburgh. I'll report on my experience.
does anyone know what is included with the free maintenence that audi gives u besides oil changes? and for how long? iam thinking of getting a4 turbo quatro wth tiptronic. is this good car.
and you'll see exactly what the free maintainence includes. It's pretty comprehensive and includes all sorts of minor items (windshield wiper blades, pollen filters). Warranty takes care of major items. Free maintenance doesn't cover oil/filter changes more frequent than the regular service interval (7,500mi). I paid for every other change 'cuz I change every 5k.
We just picked up our new A4 1.8T Q Tip last Wednesday. Very nice car, I think I'm in love. We had a 99 A4 before. I beleive these are great cars & a very good value too. The oil changes have now been stretched to 10,000 miles. Too long in my book. Basically the Audi advantage covers everything other than tires. As has been stated before read the fine print.
Care to compare your new A4 with the '99? Was the '99 also the 1.8T and Tip? Interested in hearing how you think handling, acceleration, ride, and build quality compare.
My 97 A4 was the same. Always something came up. I actually think it was the mechanics and not the car...They always got something wrong where I would have to take the car back. My 99 A6 was pretty flawless.
my wife and i are really confused, we live in boston and ski in the winter so we thought about 4wd, we really liked the new a4 better than the 330xi but consumer reports rates the bmw so much higher ? they seem so biased toward anything bmw or japanese
i will scan the 3000 messages in this list but anyone following this board can you please tell me what's the consensus on the reliability of the new a4s? i've heard very mixed things about the prior generation. i think they did a really nice redesign for 2002, it is sporty, soaks up the bumps and i've heard that quattro is much better than the bmw awd system.
i'm leaning toward the a4 but don't want to make a mistake. i am also concerned about resale value 4 years from now
Check out Car and Driver's web site. They have done two comparisons "TWO AGAINST ONE" and "WAGONS NORTH" with awd Audis vs awd BMW's both of which Audi won. "MOST" of the automotive press agrees with you on the awd BMW's. Even the August 2001 issue of Bimmer magazine dogged the handling of the 330xi. They slapped an awd system on a 3 series as an after thought marring the BMW'S handling and ride. As we all know AUDI's been engineering their cars around QUATTRO for years. I live in Colorado and ski around 20 times a year. I see far more AUDI'S here than BMW'S. It seems to be the smart choice for people who really need the best AWD system money can buy. A year ago I also considerd a BMW but went with a A4 and have not regreted it for 1 second! I'f I lived were it never snowed I would have considerd a RWD Bimmer, but the AWD bimmers have a way to go before they convert me. GOOD LUCK
Comments
Toyota did their homework on the American market well .A toyota es300 would not garnish 36k but a "lexus" oh yes, remember the lexus GS400 ? that was gonna blow BMW away ? I havent seen current sales figures but it seems to be a non factor, same with the new G35 they are allready pilling up on lots and 325i and A4 with 100 less HP are selling ....
So would a 3.0 Passat with a slight price increase and save said W8 for some new sheetmetal be a better plan ? who knows. I know i sure am not a Automotive analyst, just some thoughts from a average consumer .
BTW, i would go for the V10 Turbo Diesel with 550lb ft torque
Best Regards,
DL
Any new info on leather being a 2003 1.8T option ?
DL
How about the V8 from the Bentley Arnage T 450hp@4100 and 645lbft@3250 or from the Bentley Continental Mulliner 420hp@4000 and 650lbft@2200! Where is that tree I need to pull out from my backyard?
Brian
Talking about exterior care, I went through a "touchless" car wash the other day, and later noticed a "gouge" right on the lip of the left front wheel! It must have happened pulling on the "track" of the carwash that pulls you through the facility. Just a warning about the "touchless" car wash that isn't so "touchless", as I found out to my dismay!!
Unlike Toyota, VW now has a car that is just slightly south of $40K and in the year 2003 will bring out a Phaeton at around $70K -- Toyota does not price the Camry like the Lexus which is based on it. Yet, the Passat is based on a "stretched" A4 and with the 8 cylinder engine will be priced like a 3.0 A4 quattro. The Phaeton, in my opinion, is an Audi A8 with different clothes -- why do this?
So it appears that VW is not going to follow the Toyota example -- they are going to morph VW into a new company -- AS IF Toyota had morphed into Lexus. At least that is what it looks like now.
It appears for the first round of this transformation that the VW and Audi lines will cause market confusion -- it confuses me. I am loyal to Audi, I am planning on a 2 2003 Audi's -- yet the W8 is interesting.
The good news is more performance-oriented Audis.
The bad news potential brand cannibalization.
It's going to be interesting to see how the market reacts to the Passat W8 and the Phaetons.
I can tell you you are not the only Audiphile who is attracted to the W8.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I have come to my own conclusion and it appears to be somewhat unpopular (especially over on the Passat Town Hall) -- VW is moving soon (in my terms 3 - 5 years) up market, up price and two cars will be here within 12 months that confuse the heck out of me -- the afforementioned W8 and the Phaeton.
Those on the Passat Town hall cry that $38K is too much for a VW -- apparently because it looks like a $23K and $33K Passat (never mind the engine and a few "minor" bits and pieces).
Of course you can imagine my confusion for this rationale -- the W8 is about $5K more than the current Passat, which is about $10K more than the entry level Passat. Which means that it is ok to pay $33,000 for a car that looks just like one that costs $23K but not an additional $5K for one that looks like one costing $33K. ?
The least expensive A4 compared to the most expensive A4 -- about a $14K spread, correct? I have never seen anyone on the A4 Town hall carp about this delta. So you see my confusion that a VW Passat owner would complain about the lack of differentiation for the money.
Ditto -- with respect to Audi -- a bottom end A6 3.0 and a top end A6 2.7T (I'll exclude the 4.2 because there actually are some body differences).
So I find myself saying the current VW owners must not want VW to push the product up market, up class and of course up price. I also agree with them, initially, that a $70,000 VW in this marketplace may be hard for some folks to swallow and that they may elect to spend their $70K on a more "prestigious" marquis.
I further try -- with only limited success -- to compare what VW is doing with what Toyota did with Lexus, because Lexus is actually a different name -- VW is still planning on calling its cars Volkswagens. While this doesn't particularly bother me, it again seems to cause much consternation with those on the Passat town hall and some with folks here in Audi land.
I am left brained (go figure) so I am trying to find the reason, the details, the methodology that made VW think it could produce the W8 Passat (for instance) and market it in some cases alongside of an Audi A4 3.0 quattro and and Audi A6 3.0 quattro -- the Passat will come off like "it's almost too good to be true."
I believe the seduction that I have felt from the Audi brand is not something that happens in a casual test drive -- it takes time. Heck a lot of people would not even notice that the A4 3.0 quattro sport had all wheel drive unless someone told them (and that is a good thing, I think).
So, I take my mind off of the more mundane pieces of life by trying to figure out why the parent company would take an approach that COULD in any way harm its child (VW being the parent and Audi the child, to be absolutely clear).
I remain confused. But the debates here are engaging.
Test drive: I test drove the A4 1.8T and 3.0 last night, both with quattro and tip. The 1.8T was way too slow off the draw for my taste. I noticed a decided delay between when I wanted pull out power, and when the turbo kicked in. The result was I gave it more gas, but when the turbo kicked in, I had to abruptly lift - or at least that's how it felt. I knew a turbo wasn't for me. Bottom line...its the 3.0 for me or no Audi.
The 3.0 was much stronger on pull-out, and road better with the 16" wheels,...the 1.8T I drove had the standard 15's. What I didn't care for was the numerous shifts by the transmission on hills. My Maxima is much smoother in delivering power on hilly roads. I am going to test an A6 3.0 w/CVT next week (they don't have an A4 w/CVT). I may drive the 3.0 A4 again to see if the shifting of the tip still bothers me. Maybe the engine was just tight from being new.
More later on my thoughts.
RMP
Audibon: i learned about torque from my bro in law's 1970 Buick GS Stage 1 455, over 500 ft lb, and for a while owned my own 1968 Buick GS, since im not that mechanically inclined and as emissons get more strick i finally gave in and got with Y2k technology.I just hope i never have to replace a 5k tranny
Regards,
DL
In contrast, the local VW delership looks like every other mass market Ford/Chevy/Honda dealership you have ever been in - big orange "SAVE NOW!" signs painted on the windows, shall we say "functional" decor, and a gaggle of bored looking salespeople standing outside the front door smoking. The sales guy I got knew considerably less about the cars on the lot than I did (which takes some doing). In short, it did not look like a place to buy a $70k car.
I think it takes a very different mentality to sell Jettas and Bugs to twentysomethings and to sell Phaetons to the stock option crowd. Can they pull it off?
Off topic somewhat: Does anyone have any sales figures for the new A4 across the entire line? Lately, I am seeing more A6's, S4's and 2001 A4's and very few if any 2002 A4's at all. Is the new body style turning people off, or is it the higher price this year? Possibly the recession has postponed many major purchases. I am, unfortunately, a casualty of this latest round and will be laid off at the end of June. (If not sooner! June was the "official" date.) So, I know that I will be putting off any major purchases well into next year, if at all.
Brian
I don't know if this means live piano music, but it absolutely means major steps forward and a paradigm shift (god I can't believe I used that word, next I'll be saying bottom feeders) upwards in look (physical plant), service and sales staff professionalism.
There is a beautiful Audi dealer in Dallas (I do not remember the name) that must already be in compliance with this directive. As I recall they had their own Audi boutique and a full line of Audi clothes and leather goods (briefcases, golf accessories, etc.) and Audi accessories. The sales people were more like tailors in a fine clothing store -- they had "nailed it."
Anyway, part of the directive from der fatherland (motherland?) and here on this side of the ocean is to rachet up the dealerships -- big time (and BTW they have very little time to do it, something on the order of "by 2002 end").
If I am not 100% accurate in every detail, I am confident that the spirit of what I said is true.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I'm predicting that now that Piech is gone they'll withdraw the car after a few years, perhaps to rebadge it (Horch? Auto Union?) and
sell it thru the Audi network.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
A friend of the Town Hall (VWGUILD) who is himself involved in a VW dealership, and therefore very credible, has detailed what VW dealers of the not too distant future must do, in effect, to remain in business.
The interesting thing about this is that the "standards of dealer excellence" were crafted by the dealers themselves.
Now if this will pan out is anyone's guess -- but make no mistake, the VW dealers ARE (or soon will be) morphing into (for lack of a better description) "Lexus-like" establishments for the sales and servicing of fine German cars with the VW logo and Audi prices. The Phaeton and the W8 Passat may confuse the heck out of us for the next several model years -- but they are meant to be the first volley of a grand scheme to attack Mercedes and be "on-par" (mostly) price wise with Audi. Apparently a $70,000 VW is a stake in the ground -- even if, temporarily, it seems to us (me at least) like it will compete with Audi's upcoming A8 (the S8 and the Phaeton from what I can tell are not intended to be seen as interchangable -- and truth be told, the Phaeton and the A8 probably aren't either -- it just works out that way for 2003, 04 and 05).
Now, it gets interesting!
and a seperate VW only VW store. Both owned by the Boardwalk auto group, who ever that is.
DL
It has been five months since I bought a car from them, and they still following up with e-mails, which I really don't answer... But last week I called Dennis asking him to connect me to a proper technical person, as I had several technical questions/inquiries. Instead, he took my questions and came back to me with the answers himself. I call it good care.
Note for those who are looking for reasons, patterns and trends: these guys also sell Mercedes, Jaguar, Porshe, and maybe something else in that ...ummmm... class.
The VW thing - they may be able to pull it off. It is within my memory (barely) when Japanese cars in general were considered cheap, inferior knock-offs. When I was a kid, someone on my street had a dinky Honda with a 3 cylinder engine. Now Japan is seen as the source of quality and reliability. Who knows?
What does a fully loaded W8 cost? I tried to locate options on Edmunds but none were shown.
I don't know why we can't seem to get the good stuff here!
I currently have a '94 Altima GXE, and I know I want an A4. My Altima has a 2.5 engine, and I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to be disappointed if I get the 1.8 rather than going for the bigger 3.0.
I've test driven the 1.8 on the highway, and it seemed peppy enough for me. I never learned to drive a manual, so my new car will need to be an automatic.
Any advice out there you can give me? The 3.0 is a bit out of my price range, but I don't want to be making a mistake...thanks!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
That said, I'm driving an A6 CVT tonight. I'll let you guys know what I think. I think the reason we haven't seen many A4's on the road is because they are still pretty scarce. Also, you won't see many CVT's, because there are very few FWD Audis on the road, and CVT is only available with FWD. Personally, I've got nothing against FWD, like many on the 3-series board, and I surely don't need quattro for bad weather driving. I can get around fine w/FWD, and I'd rather spend the money on luxury options.
1) When reading a car review, the first thing I look at is the 0-60 time.
2) I have upgraded the suspension, springs, exhaust, or SBQ from any of my last two automobiles.
3) I immediately recoqnized that there is no such car part as an "SBQ" when I read question 2.
4) Someone more recent than Ronald Reagan was president the last time I raced someone off a stop light.
5) If the offer were open, I would trade a kidney for an M5, a Z06, or an RS6.
6) I can identify more than one of the cars in the last question.
7) I would walk before I would drive a Camry/Accord/minivan.
Give yourself one point for every "yes" answer.
Score:
6-7 points - what are you waiting for, sell that kidney and get on the RS6 waiting list!
4-5 points - as they say, "there's no replacement for displacement". Go with the 3.0 or face disappointment
1-3 points - the 1.8T will be fine for you and will occaisionally surprise you with it's oomph
0 points - the 1.8T is more than enough, and we might have a 1982 Dodge Aries K you'd be more interested in after all..
Tongue firmly in cheek,
Rick
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Bluetrane, what color is the Dodge?
(kidding! I did manage to get one point!)
Good luck!
Billy
I think (hope!) this lag would be reduced even further in a lighter A4. Otherwise, this has to be the best automatic transmission in the world. It is much smoother than the Tip when downshifting on a hill. It also delivers kick-downs at speed that you can hardly notice. I noticed no big tachometer jumps during shifting, like is common w/automatics.
The CVT also seems to work great in tiptronic mode. It seemed to shift more like a manual in this mode than either the tiptronic, or my brother's steptronic 323. Its still not the same as a clutch, but it seemed like I'd want to use it more than the Tiptronic I drove.
Bottom line: This convinced me that if I get an A4 3.0, it will be FWD with CVT. I have no qualms about this transmission at all. And, I can save $1,700 by not getting quattro, which pays for xenon, Bose and metallic paint if I choose to go that route.
And it's almost at 20k now.....minor problems so far, and loving the car even more. Weird, isn't it.
Billy
what is included with the free
maintenence that audi gives u besides
oil changes and for how long.iam
considering a a4quatroo turbo with
tiptronic and a nissan altima so
your help here would be appreciated
Any quality alternatives to the high priced dealers that people can reccomend?
Thanks,
with the free maintenence that
audi gives u besides oil changes?
and for how long? iam thinking of
getting a4 turbo quatro wth tiptronic. is this good car.
The A4 Quattro 1.8T comes highly recommended.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
G35 is sweet
my wife and i are really confused, we live in boston and ski in the winter so we thought about 4wd, we really liked the new a4 better than the 330xi but consumer reports rates the bmw so much higher ? they seem so biased toward anything bmw or japanese
i will scan the 3000 messages in this list but anyone following this board can you please tell me what's the consensus on the reliability of the new a4s? i've heard very mixed things about the prior generation. i think they did a really nice redesign for 2002, it is sporty, soaks up the bumps and i've heard that quattro is much better than the bmw awd system.
i'm leaning toward the a4 but don't want to make a mistake. i am also concerned about resale value 4 years from now
thanks!