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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Denso NAV unit in my 07 Sequoia Limited is a POC. Too bad Land Rover is going to be the loser if they buy Denso, made in India junk. When my CD player died it would not let us even close the NAV screen. So for 4 weeks while they got a new unit from India we had our NAV screen sitting horizontal. Only thing that worked was talk radio AM station.

    Still better than having your throttle stuck wide open.

    I think your take on the ECU firmware is a very likely problem.
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    maximafanmaximafan Member Posts: 592
    Why do you get so upset that people are in "denial" about driving
    Toyota products? Why would they be in "denial" if the majority of
    the Toyota owners are not having these problems?? I'm still very
    confident in the reliability of my '07 RX. It's been a great car for the last three-and-a-half years. So I refuse to start panicking about this. Just step back and take a deep breath!!! ;) Frankly, I just think this is all a bunch of hysteria that's taking over here.
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    lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    Hysteria is the perfect word for what's going on. Going forward, anyone driving a Toyota who wants to avoid responsibility for an accident will blame it on unintended acceleration. And the news media will slavishly report the claims. Never mind that the documented occurrence of this failure is quite small.

    Last night, the local TV news had one lady blaming her Prius for slamming into another car, with the narrator informing everyone that the Prius was not "for now" part in the recall. The first rule of TV news, scare first, inform later . . . if ever.

    Let the games begin!
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    hoyafanhoyafan Member Posts: 48
    Things are going from bad to worse for Toyota.
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    link title

    A Ford Motor Co. venture suspended production of a full-size commercial van in China as it investigates accelerator pedals made by CTS Corp., the supplier involved in Toyota Motor Corp.’s vehicle recall.
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    revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Fact file on Toyota's vehicle recall in the US. Toyota raced past US giant General Motors in 2008 to become the world's top-selling automaker, but it has been bedevilled by a series of safety issues that have raised questions about whether it sacrificed quality for quantity.

    image
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    revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    I certainly hope that word spreads more about the NHTSA telling Toyota that they had to stop selling these defective cars until a solution has been found rather than all these broadcasts of Toyota putting a spin on it to make them look good. Everyone keeps saying Toyota’s reputation is going to improve over the way they have handled this. None of them had heard that it was not Toyota’s choice to stop selling and producing these models.
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    daveqdaveq Member Posts: 20
    I bought a 2010 Camry last Nov. and obviously am paying close attention to this recall/issue. In my opnion this whole thing is turning into a big witchhunt, at least on Edmunds forums where you have a couple of users who beat around the same bush over and over again. I understand that this is a public forum and users have a right to say what they want to, within the limits and regulations of Edumunds, but it is getting annoying and frustrating to see the same unhelpful rattlings from the same id over and over and over again. Is there an ignore function on Edmunds, just like on Yahoo message board, where you can put an id on ignore and whatever he/she posted will not show up on your screen?
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    revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    I don't agree with many of the responses on here either, but as an owner of a 2009 Toyota Camry, I definitely want to hear as much as possible about this issue if Toyota can actually resolve it.
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    2012aveo2012aveo Member Posts: 43
    I can confirm that my experience with Denso components in my 1990 Toyota Celica and 1990 Honda Civic has been very positive actually outstanding. The Denso alternator in my Toyota and Denso starter in my Honda are both still original. I have no experience with their climate control or navigation systems though. But I can tell you that from my experience with my Mercedes C240 that either Bosh or Siemens have issues with their climate control systems and electronics.
    Denso's original name was NipponDenso. When my mom and I were shopping for cars during the 1980's we sought of had a "Nippon Only" philosophy. ;) No pun intended.
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    daveqdaveq Member Posts: 20
    Precisely, posting as much information as possible on what is happening going forward, personal experience in regard to this issue, technical discussions on possible problems apart from those already announced, or suggestions on what recourse do Toyota owners have and so forth are USEFUL/HELPFUL. Cutting and pasting texts without citing sources, REPEATED ranting of Toyota's inferior quality with links to Toyota's TV advertisement, and writing messages with the same theme over and over again ARE NOT.
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    revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    I am sorry you feel that way; just like some people won't drive their Toyota now while others would go out today and buy one if they could; we all have our own personal opinions.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Just use your down arrow to scroll on by, Dave.

    I've never had an issue with Denso, but ALPS switches have failed on me. Car guys have always known about Lord Lucas or Holley, but these days the general public learns about CTS and Denso and all the other suppliers as soon as something breaks.

    Wwest, maybe you can get on the Hyundai tech site and see how their "throttles" are set up. A few Santa Fe owners have reported unintended acceleration problems.
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    Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    If you own one of the models listed in the recall and have actually experienced the unintended acceleration, please send an email with details of the experience and how it felt.

    karen@edmunds.com
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    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Agreed never had any problems with any Denso electronic components in really any vehicle I can think of. Did we have some failures sure but they were usually the result of outside influence, non-compatible bluetooth phones screwing up Nav systems for one, or failures that happened well outside the normal life of a component. I don't expect any electronic component to last forever.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    BTW, how's it going with your Camry? It's good to see that despite the raging torrent of posts you've been making herein that in reality you actually spend your hard earned money in supporting your local Toyota dealer and the many workers involved in making the Camry. Not to mention sending a profit back to Japan ;) .

    Well done sir. If I looked up prevaricator, duplicitous or two-faced what would that definition say? What about professional marketing shill for a competitor to Toyota? Is that definition nearby?
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...documented occurrence of this failure is quite small.."

    Quite small....

    Yes, and so is the number of Toyota owners who would willingly participate in a game of russian roulette even with those same "odds", 2 million empty chambers but only one or two (three..?) bullets.

    Yes, let the "games" begin....
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Sorry, while I do admire Hyundai for their rapid rise in the marketplace I have not, so far, seen anything unique enough about any of their products to attract me.

    Perhaps in the future.
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    carlupicarlupi Member Posts: 52
    This Avalon Forum contains some 100 separate discussion titles/themes. But, prior to the discussion posted just two days ago after the recall there was not a single discussion in this Forum about the stuck gas pedal that supposedly affects all Avalons built over the past 5 years. This can only mean that: a) the problem affects an insignificantly small number of Avalons built in 2005-2010; b) the problem only surfaces on Avalons after several years of use.
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    dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    Maybe you should go back and read some of the older forums on the Camry and read all the people who have been complaining about this since at least 2007 with many of them selling at a lost because of Toyota's attitude and there were scared for their families. I wonder when this is over and done how many will sue Toyota because of the loss they suffered with their vehicles. :lemon:
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    Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    And someone in the San Francisco area?

    Thanks to all that respond!

    karen@edmunds.com
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Wow, revelations abound.

    I did as you asked and browsed about on the various Hyundai specific forums on the internet. Two things jumped out at me.

    Hyundai cars are experiencing the same 1-2 second downshift delay/hesitation as are all the FWD and F/awd (not ruling out RWD) Toyota/Lexus/Scion products. My conclusion is that Hyundai using the same transaxle supplier as is Toyota/etc.

    Hyundai is also experiencing what is seemingly an unusual level of accelerator pedal position sensor failures. The nice thing, for Hyundai, is that the engine/transaxle control firmware is detecting the sensor failures and simply putting the control system in "limp home" mode.

    But at the very "core" of all this I think I see the "hands" of NipponDenso, Denso US, in "play". I would bet good odds that the controlling firmware for both the transaxle shift sequence/pattern and the accelerator monitoring came from one source...DENSO.

    Raising, for me, the distinct possibility that DENSO has not enough oversight, KNOWLEDGEABLE oversight, to provide high quality assurance of their software design's overall reliability.

    Some years ago I discovered that some of the B767 flight control surface firmware was being "certified" by hardware engineers with NO software development nor software specification writing experience. So what should we expect from software development/specification from Japanese/Denso engineers operating in an ancient "heads-down" cultural environment.
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    c) opportunity. ;)
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    tom_in_sanjosetom_in_sanjose Member Posts: 1
    While the Prius is not part of this recall a previous recall was laid at the feet of an interfering floor map. Those of us who own a Prius have some doubts that this is true. There have been occasional reports of the Prius accelerator not working correctly and at least one small company has been fixing the accelerator assembly. There bay be an issue with the sensor used in the assembly.

    Does anybody know if the recalled models use a similar fly-by-wire approach to accelerator control?
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    popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    Wwest, I must finally ask the question.....what education, job position, technical experience, etc., do you have that qualifies you to be the "expert witness" on all topics that turn up on this forum? Your ABSOLUTE technical knowledge of all things automotive is truly amazing.

    And question no. 2, how many Toyota vehicles do you own/drive?
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    revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    So I am waiting for Toyota to fix my defective 2009 Camry so what do they do, they are sending the pedals to the factories instead of the dealers.

    Thanks Toyota for yet again screwing over the customer and be more worried about getting your sales up and ready. And people say Toyota cares about its customers.

    Toyota is sending new gas pedal systems to car factories rather than dealerships who want the parts to take care of millions of customers whose pedals may stick.

    Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons confirms information in a company e-mail obtained by the AP that says parts were shipped to factories. Lyons says that's how the company normally distributes parts.

    But some dealers say they should get the parts first because they now have no way to fix the pedals on any of the 4.2 million recalled vehicles affecting eight U.S. models.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    So I am waiting for Toyota to fix my defective 2009 Camry so what do they do, they are sending the pedals to the factories instead of the dealers.''

    Here's the MSNBC story:

    Toyota sends new pedals to plants, not dealers

    Meanwhile, Toyota apologies (but not for that):

    Toyota CEO Apologizes; Company Advertises Apology in U.S. Media (AutoObserver)
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    maple2maple2 Member Posts: 177
    Toyota Ceo Apologizes.

    Yawn...Nothing to see here, just Mr Toyoda apologizing yet AGAIN.
    Nothing to see...move along...
    Next
    :shades:
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    774774 Member Posts: 101
    I ran across this and decided to post it. It seems to me we are not getting the whole story on this gas pedal problem from Toyota

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnFp2yLBnNQ
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,420
    Thank you for that link. No wonder I love the internet.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,180
    >But at the very "core" of all this I think I see the "hands" of NipponDenso, Denso US, in "play". I would bet good odds that the controlling firmware for both the transaxle shift sequence/pattern and the accelerator monitoring came from one source...DENSO

    From reading your very logically thought out post, I infer that you believe there's something wrong or at least something happening in the firmware in the computer reading the accelerator sensor? So there may be something wrong beyond the accelerator pedal sensor. You're suggesting that involves Denso rather than only CTS even though CTS has been named by Toyota because of the accelerator pedal sensors. Am I correct?

    Would this be consistent with some postings (true or false) of quick acceleration from a stop?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,180
    Thank you for the link.

    I cannot see how condensation would occur inside causing inhibition of physical movement and giving a friction to the pedal movement. The initial descriptions said there was a wiping contact and condensate buildup after wear and polishing could cause the sensor to not work properly. I don't see anywhere in this well done tear down showing that to be possible. The only "rubbing" is on the brass bearing contact, not the contact sensing pedal position.

    Thank you.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,180
    Here's another link where the same person who disassembled the pedal and sensor talks about the possibility of the problem being the engine end of the throttle assembly OR a computer malfunction.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHotbtd7HJA

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    2012aveo2012aveo Member Posts: 43
    "So what should we expect from software development/specification from Japanese/Denso engineers operating in an ancient "heads-down" cultural environment. "

    I am not sure what you mean by a heads down environment, but it sure beats the disrespectful, arrogant, and immature attitudes at many US work environments. I heard on either CBS or Bloomberg radio that up to 65 percent of American workers do the minimum work just to get by, while up to 15% are actively working against the companies they work for because they are disgruntled employees. Scary, don't you think. Poor companies like GM and Toyota have to deal with this to do business in the US.
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    a8fana8fan Member Posts: 17
    I have a Tundra 2008 and aside from the pedal not being as smooth as I would like, I have no idea what to expect.

    I'm thinking someone keeps a very dirty car floor and something got stuck in it.
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    a8fana8fan Member Posts: 17
    I also suspect this is a ploy to steer users to GM... LOL I would not put it past the commies in office now.
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    774774 Member Posts: 101
    Thanks, I was in hopes there was a follow up video. It appears the problem is much more than a gas pedal or floor mat.
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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It appears the problem is much more than a gas pedal or floor mat.

    I think Toyota should hire an aircraft company or a miltary lab to test out these computer and electronic areas. EMI is a major issue there, especially on a carrier deck or missile launch area, so this industry and the AF and Navy are pretty advanced in these areas.
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    774774 Member Posts: 101
    You would think that if the problem was just the gas pedal assembly it would be obvious. I am with you there is more to this than what we are being told.
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    774774 Member Posts: 101
    Toyota is losing millions on this and has to solve the problem. The floor mat excuse once you look into it is not going to fly. The gas pedal explanation based opon the two videos in above posts is not looking so good
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Dealers: Recalled vehicle owners must wait for repairs on faulty gas pedals

    DETROIT - Toyota is sending new gas pedal systems to car factories rather than dealerships who want the parts to take care of millions of customers whose pedals may stick.

    Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons confirms information in a company e-mail obtained by the AP that says parts were shipped to factories. Lyons says that's how the company normally distributes parts.

    But some dealers say they should get the parts first because they now have no way to fix the pedals on any of the 4.2 million recalled vehicles affecting eight U.S. models.

    Lyons said Toyota did not send the parts to dealers because it has not decided whether to have the systems in the recalled vehicles repaired or replaced.

    But dealers and customers were unhappy with the delays in getting parts.

    Earl Stewart, owner of a Toyota dealership in North Palm Beach, Florida, said his service technicians might not know the details of how to fix the gas pedal systems, but they know to install new ones, and the parts should have gone to dealers rather than factories.


    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35143209/ns/business-autos/

    It seems strange that Toyota has not displayed these so-called corroded throttles attributed to CTS. Could this just be Toyota buying time to find what is really wrong with their systems?
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,180
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnFp2yLBnNQ

    This video shows the internals of the CTS pedal. I don't see where the condesate and polishing due to friction with aging have the potential to cause a problem. There's no mechanical contact as in an actual potentiometer.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHotbtd7HJA&feature=related

    This one sums up the potential areas for the problems to occur clearly. Sounds like firmware problem in at least some of the cases.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Based on your statement you don't understand the issues. After all this time and all these posts haven't you yet understood what happened in these two separate recalls?
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    carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    Actually if you check the NHTSA site, you will find several "vehicle speed control" incidents for the Avalon. Not as many as the Camry, but then there are not as many Avalons on the road.
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    carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    I agree with your last statement about sounding like a firmware problem. I believe many of the people's confidence in what they experienced to be credible. When they say they did not depress the gas, or they just tapped the brake and the car took off, or they "felt the pedal pull away from their foot", a sticking pedal explanation does not hold water. A plausible cause would be that cruise control was activated and set at an undesirable speed. Then the question is whether the firmware that made that logic decision is still accepting inputs to change that setting.
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    774774 Member Posts: 101
    Are you saying the vehicles involved in the first recall have a different type gas pedal assembly from the ones in the current recall ?
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Not even close. So how is it that you can complain about purported intents if you don't understand the subject you're posting about?

    The floor mat excuse once you look into it is not going to fly.

    This isn't Toyota's excuse. It's the action that NHTSA forced on Toyota so that stupid owners and others ( like stupid Lexus dealers ) would have a larger margin of error in case these morons decided to try to kill themselves and others by stacking multiple mats on top of one another.

    Basically NHTSA is saying that some in the driving public are going to do stupid things. We're going to force you to try to compensate for these dopes by putting more space in the footwell - just in case someone does an idiotic thing like put an SUV All Weather mat into the footwell of a smaller sedan...then not secure it in place. This recall is the NHTSA thumping its chest.
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    774774 Member Posts: 101
    So you are saying the NHTSA forced this floor mat excuse on Toyota.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    ... but the guy admits to a lot of missing knowledge about the pedal and the assembly.

    He simply states that in his opinion it's a good design but it might be flawed but he doesn't know for certain.

    Now as regards to facts. CTS has stated publicly that it is redesigning that pedal under instructions from Toyota to make it better, but they imply that the redesign didn't make it into the field yet. CTS is the true source of knowledge and the owner of the patent here. If in it's opinion, implying also Toyota's opinion, that the pedal needed improvements then it leaves this guy twisting in the wind.

    It's interesting to see inside the pedal but he like almost everybody herein has no facts and no inside knowledge of what the real defect is. He admits that he simply doesn't understand. Another non-factual opinion.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    No you're misunderstanding what I posted. My point about not understanding the two very different issues here.

    The NHTSA issued a recall on certain Toyota vehicles back in 2007 based on mats trapping the gas pedal. They found a significant number of people were putting multiple mats on top of one another and not securing them in place. This could cause the top mat to slide forward and to trap the pedal in WOT. In this recall owners and dealers were instructed NOT to stack mats top of one another and to make sure that the mats were secured to the anchors in the floor. ( ISSUE No 1 )

    However some people since then have complained about the pedals becoming stuck when there were no mats involved. ( ISSUE No 2 )

    Last August a CHP driver and his family were killed in an ES350 Lexus loaner car and the NHTSA after its investigation found that the likely source was..........
    ..the Lexus dealer stacked two mats on top of each other
    ..the Lexus dealer used an All Weather mat from an SUV ( ! ) which was too large for the footwell sedan
    ..the Lexus dealer didn't secure the top mat in place and it slid forward apparently

    Everyone of these actions was in contravention of the 2007 recall. It was simply stupid and possibly criminal. ( ISSUE No 1 again )

    So what should be done? Due to the high visibility of this case the NHTSA had to do something to try to protect certain stupid people ( like the Lexus dealer ) from inadvertantly trying to kill themselves and others by doing idiotic things. The NHTSA can't have a 'safety rider' going along with every owner in the US reminding them "Don't do stupid things". So they forced Toyota to reshape the gas pedal to make it shorter and to take padding out of the floorpan. In this way if someone ignored ALL the warnings and still tried to do something really stupid like stack two or three mats on each other and not secure them there would be a larger margin of error. ( ISSUE No 1 again ). This is the large recall back in November. It's the NHTSA thumping its chest saying "See what we did."

    But all along a few isolated people were still complaining about the pedal being stuck like the Avalon driver in NJ. He did nothing wrong and had his OEM mats secured properly ( ISSUE No 2 ). This is the voluntary recall last Tuesday where Toyota determined that certain isolated CTS pedals might 'become sticky' over time and use under certain specific circumstances. It has nothing to do with mats, never did.
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