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Comments
1. shouldn't be driving so fast on poor condition.
2. always brake before you turn, unless you want to induce an oversteer. Braking while turning gives you less traction.
3. it sounds like you should have kept your foot on the gas, and powered your way out. Lifting or braking results in weight transfer in your car, which changes its balance. That said if the car was too far gone in its spin, nothing would have helped.
BTW, don't waste your time on step, go to stick.
With a sharp turn, it sounds like your front-end dove into the turn and caused a lot of turning friction (like braking) which shifted weight off your rear tires (with recommended tire pressure, most BMWs understeer in a tight turn). With weight off your rear tires, they did not have traction to hold your tail behind you.
In a circumstance like this, your need to hold your speed (neither brake nor accelerate) during the turn in order to allow your tires to generate their maximum force in the sideward direction. It takes a bit of discipline and composure but any attitude correction should be done smoothly and continuously with only the steering wheel (I'm sure your have used counter-steering to compensate for tail-slides in snow). Smoothness is the key word. Once you have collected yourself and are out of the turn, you can start thinking of using the brakes.
1. Yes I was going waay too fast for that curve.
It took me a year to learn to drive an auto. I have absolutely no concept of revs, clutches or gears. I also have horrible hand/eye/foot coordination. So I think Step is a good start. Besides, aren't clutchless systems the way of the future?
Allano:
I was well through the curve and starting the straight when the skid began. I was steady on the accelerator through the curve. I'm not sure if the tail swung right or left first. It may have started to swing right, but I do know for sure that it was swinging left and came to a 180 stop when I braked. (so it's either right/left OR left/right/left). It lurched around a bit.
I've controlled small skids before (in a FWD mainly) but this was a big one (in my first RWD) and I did not know what to anticipate. Hence the need for advanced driver training.
It sounds like rear was swinging right, then you counter steered, and braked which caused it to swing left (done it before on a Honda).
Its a 98 and comes with ASC (traction control). Neither the ASC or the ABS kicked in at any time.
brave:
It could be the tires. I know the front ones are new, but not the rear. I'll have to check. How deep should the tread be anyway?
If I need new ones in the near future, I'll plan on getting snows for now, and get all seasons for spring.
-Chris
Dan
Best Regards,
Shipo
-Chriss
Oversteer can be fun...snap oversteer is never fun. Got my first lesson in the rain in a '61 Beetle...instant driving school..."why is the scenery going by the wrong window in the wrong direction?"
My experience (with pure RWD cars) is that your car will continue to spin in the same direction it was spinning before you apply the brakes - even if you counter-steer. Part of the reason is that when you brake, you try to stop all four wheels from rotating. If your rear wheels are sliding already, they will continue to slide (reached their limit of adhesion). The front wheels may bite a little more (providing a pivot for a higher-rate spin) or begin to slide. In either case, you have already developed the rotary motion which is impossible to stop when all wheels are sliding.
Sounds like you over-corrected for the original slide and induced another. Glad you were not hurt and that you were in a BMW. You and I need sliding practice in a flat, snowy parking lot (no speed bumps). I have to find out what works for the AWD setup which is new to me. I was supprised to "hear" a person in the forum say that slight acceleration made his sliding front wheels grab.
Alan
P.S. Quite a while back, I had someone ahead of me drive onto the shoulder of a dry road and hit ice, have their tail move slightly counter-clockwise and then over-correct into a 270 degree clockwise spin across both lanes. What an eye-full. Later it dawned on me why race car drivers follow the tail of a spinning car in front of them. If they went in the opposite direction, the spinning car would come around to smack them.
woooohoooo!
Needless to say I'm unhappy with the dealer. Shouldn't the survey be confidential? Thankfully the car is a dream, and it makes me overlook these issues.
Hey Guru, how about opening a Cutter Motors branch in the Boston area? You'd get my business for sure.
Never once was I asked about how the experience could be improved. Beats the purpose of a survey
If your complaints aren't resolved, then I would call BMWNA
GURU - Could you explain how much (or what) a dealer stands to lose if they receive a less than Excellent rating (Good instead of Excellent)? Please.
I'm not a confrontational person. Just wanted to get my car. Completing the survey in the dealer's presence is not conducive to thoughtful and complete responses. Scale of Excellent (Pass) or Good (Fail) cannot accurately reflect experience. Makes you think survey is just cosmetic.
1. Slow down before the turn
2 Try to get a feel for the car and know how fast you can accelerate out of the turn
3. If the car starts skidding, let off the gas and brakes and just steer till the car straightens itself out. Someone had suggested powering your way through the skid. This is professional-level stuff that most regular drivers should not attempt. It certainly works, especially if your rear tires are wide and you gently accelerate but do not attempt it in situations like that.
4. If you do have to steer very fast to avoid a crash and the back end starts coming out, you have to anticipate that it will snap back in the other direction if you steer too hard - it's like a pendulum. You have to modulate your steering.
5. Practice, practice, practice. RWD cars are a lot more fun and overall perform better than FWD and AWD but they are still easier to get in trouble with when the driver makes huge error(s).
Any opinions appreciated.
There were a few points where I thought it was not excellent, but better than good (you know what I mean)... I think they should do a scale of 1-10, or even 1-5, is far better than the current one.
I wish there was some way I could plan and get paid for (!) providing a sales service in the eastern states; but Santa Barbara's not a city I'm in much of a hurry to leave.
But most important, WOW, what a phenomenal car. After testing the new A4, the S60, Passat, 9-5, you name it, I drove it, IMHO the BMW has them all beat for performance, and just the good feeling you get starting the engine and listening to that thing kick-up. Looking forward to many years of this.
cavman2x - Park Ave, talk to Manny.
div2 - i wish you could print up the "braking before the turn" and send it to every licensed (and, in the case of philadelphia, un-licensed) driver in the united states.
-Chris
The 2002 was light (2000lb) and gave the driver a lot more feedback about how well he handled the car than the current 3 series. You could feel/see the front-end dive into a sharp turn; feel/see weight transfer on acceleration/braking in a turn. It taught me a lot about being smooth as well as confirm the turning technique where you steer-first, accelerate/brake later.
I watched my driving today and noticed that I've been oversteering on turns frequently. Not intentionally but its become second nature. It's just easy to do in this car until yesterday.
I also went through the same curve again today (but a lot slower) It's actually an S with a slight right curve and a v. sharp left.
God! I do some stupid things sometimes.
However, I have been unhappy since because they have not fixed my key programming problem yet and it is almost a month old. My right side mirror has also stopped tilting downward in reverse (yes, the mirror adjustment switch is on the driver's side, so that isn't the problem). I have been back twice since they initially programmed the keys to have them fixed, but to no avail. And every time I call to make a new appt. for service since they do not work, I have to wait two weeks to get in for service. I am scheduled for next Wed., but I am tempted to call and complain about the fact my car came broken and they aren't making much of an effort to fix it right away, considering how new it is.
But you can't beat the convenience of Advantage BMW downtown, if that is where you work. If my experience with Momentum is any indication, as well as that of others, they will not sell you a car (any car) for less than MSRP and are pretty put out to even throw in floor mats. They were condescending to me for even trying to negotiate a price with them on the car. The only person I know who was able to negotiate was only able to do so on a 528i demo.
Maybe you will have better luck with them. At least get Momentum to take you out on the test track to see how far you can push the car (well the race car driver that drives your car). It was impressive in the 330i.
katkison
Also, someone mentioned that you can steer first and then brake or accelerate. Isn't this how you induce oversteer and then convert it to understeer? Can't wait to try these out at the CCA Safety or Racing Schools - should be a lot of fun.
The idea of continued acceleration in a turn is to use the forward push of the car to drive you toward the center of the turn while you are sliding. With power, the weight shift to the rear tires will keep those tires biting while you counter-steer to keep a spin from developing.
However, don't try this technique all at once. You have wide, smooth ramps in the Albany area. Try taking the _same_ ramp at a 2mph greater speed every other morning. On consecutive days, play with the accelerator after you have established your turn: first day no extra acceleration, the next day with gentle power. Two days later, increase your speed by 2mph. Keep your head and body very still and feel what the car is doing (pushing, leaning, tail start to wag) as your turn. If it pushes and you don't like it, increase your front tire presure by 2psi and try again. Little steps.
Although I'm not sure the current 325 is the best car for learning (it sticks too well), holding a 10 degree drift around a ramp with continuously changing counter-steer sure gives you confidence when a spin occurs and you don't expect it. It was what the Triumphs and MGBs were all about.
-Chris