Lexus ES 300/ES 330

fredvh

I was interested in your earlier post concerning your Lexus purchase. Maybe I missed something but what would be their incentive to change the finance papers? I think it is terrible that papers were changed after your purchase. Please keep us informed of your progress if you decide to pursue the matter. In most states though forgery would only be prosecuted if they actually gained and you lost money on the paper redo. Apparently you lost no money. I certainly do not condone what they have done. I was pleased to see that you contacted corporate Lexus as they should be aware of this deal. Please keep us informed. Thanks

s852

If the dealership made a commission on the credit insurance.
Regardless, it really shows that the dealership is sleazy by not notifying you ahead of time and having you sign the contract personally rather than forging a signature.
Very unprofessional at the least.

jwfslk

john319- It wasn't either of the dealerships you mentioned.

fredvh- The dealership reduced my purchase price by the same amount that they added the vendor's insurance policy. In essence they made me pay for a policy insuring the bank for my possible nonpayment. I have top credit and I think they knew that I would have questioned the policy if I saw it on the form that I signed. This was a bank that the dealership wanted me to finance through- I'm sure they made some extra money that way.

It's very clear what the facts are, the only unknown is who the actual person was that signed my name. The Attorney General's office even suggested I file a police report so that it would have to be investigated. This would show the dealership I mean business. My friend the judge is pushing me to aggressively pursue this. He says it's not only a felony but an invasion of my personal privacy, the fact that I'm not out any money is immaterial. By the way, my salesman offered to sell me a new '02 ... at cost.

ved3

tclemons,
sorry to hear about your mom and inlaws.

I guess I was surprised to learn of the
low mileage on your wife's car, for a 98.
Most ES I've heard about, except newly
purchased, have very high mileage because
their owners love to drive them on long trips.
but I guess if you keep it low, your wife's
car might last longer than the average ES,
conditional upon proper maintenance of course.
Now you should treat yourself with a nice
luxury car when the prism stops moving rather
than let your wife have all the fun with her
daily commute.

jwfslk,
there's definitely something wrong with your
experience. I don't think lexus headquarter
would condone or even tolerate that type of
practice. A world renown luxury car maker
can't afford to take that kind of risk. they
work so hard to reach their excellent status
so they wouldn't just throw it all away. I think
you can probably get assistance from lexus
headquarter if you decide to pursue this case.
where is this dealership? who's the sleazy
salesman? they shouldn't do that without your
permission.

msangie,
mine definitely has paint chips,
especially on the front. but overall
still retains its showroom shine. mostly
because I wash it but the lexus dealer has
helped me take care of it. It always gets s
wash and well cleaned, whether or not I ask
for it, wheneve I take it in for service.
I think I will eventually have it repainted.
I don't think it's a major problem because
not a lot of lexus owners have complain about
it. but if yours is still under warranty, let
your dealer take care of it. good luck.

john319

Ahh, say no more. I know for sure that the dealership is located in Danvers, MA and is owned by (or partly owned by) Group 1 which is similar to AutoNation. Anyways, good luck on whatever you decide to do.

jimxo

See my post #782 on the camry boards. There you can get to the all new camry.

A good idea as to the possible sheet metal that the ES300 will arrive in.

ecaf

That's the Mark II. It's nice, but it won't be the new Camry or Windom.

rickc5

Like many other things, automotive paint just isn't what it used to be! Due to federal laws, paints used in the last few years contain less chemical thinning agents than those used in the past. This is to prevent air pollution due to the evaporation of the thinners during and immediately after application. I've even heard that some are water-based, but I can't confirm that. Unfortunately, these newer paints are less resistant to chips than the older paint.

Some options:

1) Buy a naugahyde bra (ugly).

2) Buy a clear, plastic, stick-on bra (3M product). Either bra will help prevent chips.

3) Buy some touch-up paint and stay on top of the chips.

Here in Colorado, paint chips are a way of life. I get a few every week during the winter. I don't like it, but the state uses gravel on the roads in the winter. I chose option # 3.

jamrock4

Someone told me about a product called Liquid Glass. It is an alternative to using wax on your car and if you apply enough coats it creates what appears to be a layer of glass that protects your car. By the time I heard about the product my car had too many scratches and so it was too late to protect my car.

Has anyone used Liquid Glass and would you recommend it as a means of preventing paint chips on a new car?

sddlw

I have a 2000 ES300 with 16" wheels and and 16/205 tires with a profile of 60 (I think). These were from the dealer. I've always thought that they looked a bit skinny on the car. I was down at a local tire shop with another car, and I asked them how large a tire I could put on my ES300, thinking maybe getting up to a 225 tire with a smaller profile. I was amazed when he showed me that the 16" wheels on the ES300 were speced out with 225 tires standard, at least according to his book. So, what's up with this? Doesn't the factory set the specs and provide tires to spec? Why would I get 205s if Lexus specs out 225s? Anyone out there with a 2000 with 16" wheels willing to go look at their tire size for comparision?

alpha01

I don't recall ever seeing an ES300 with 225 treadwith. I'd say that guy's book is incorrect, at least as far as standard-spec goes. Proof? Check out the February 2000 issue of Car and Driver... the test vehicle wears Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus(es), P205/60VR-16.

(btw.. even in its 4th model year of its 5 year cycle, that Lexus posted a respectable 3rd place out of 10 finish in the aforementioned test)

ved3

rick and jamrock,

I once considered getting the front grille cover
or bra(as you put it), but I don't think
these look good in a luxury car, especially
the ES. It's not like a civic which is made
for after market upgrades or add-ons. I think
it would somewhat take the ES elegance away.
I really like its sleekness and slightly chiseled
look. So I basically went with touch up paint.
and it has worked out ok as long as you're not
staring at the treated areas up close.
that's interesting about the paint having less
quality. I read somewhere that lexus actually
uses better quality paint than most other cars
and they are baked on to withstand more pressure.
but I think, until they can come up with colored
siding for cars that can easily be replaced when
you want to change the color of your car, we
will always have chipped paint issue.

jamrock, liquid glass is an interesting concept.
but wouldn't you have to cover up the whole car
with it? you can't just put it on the front,
the front would appear more shiny than the rest
of the car. that would not look right.

the tires on mine are 205 Dunlop sport 4000,
original. I've never had problem with handling
or anything. punctured by a nail onced and
spent $10 to get it fixed. 225 huh? would
that make it more sporty?

rickc5

When I bought new tires for my '97 ES, the folks at Discount Tire were vehemently AGAINST the use of a bigger or different-size tire. According to them, the Lexus suspension is "tuned" for the stock tire size. Having been a car nut for many years, I found this difficult to believe, but I neglected to check with a Lexus dealer.

Anyway, going up two full sizes from stock will change your speedometer readings and WILL have an effect on the handling. Whether that effect will be positive or negative depends on many factors: tire brand, tread design, rubber compound, sidewall strength, speed rating, your opinion, etc.

If you want to change the handling and looks without changing the speedometer reading, change to 17" wheels with a lower profile tire, like a 50 or 45, maintaining the same tire diameter as the stock tire. This will put a lot more rubber on the ground, which will be a plus in the dry and a minus in the wet or snow. It will also stiffen the ride and make your wheels more susceptible to damage.

Here's a clever tool for playing around with different tire sizes:
http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

Oh yeah, I bought stock size tires.

sddlw

Thanks for the comments. I hope this guy's book doesn't have too many typos in it! I guess mistakes can creep into anything in print, but that would be a costly mistake if they incorrectly sized 16/225/60s instead of 16/205/60's.

Yes, I am aware of the issues in wheel size and profile, but thanks anyway. Alot of people would not realize that the 16/225/60's stand taller as well as wider. Another good tool to use can be found at: http://powerdog.com/tiresize.cgi/ and to some extent, http://www.tirerack.com/index.jsp can help as too. Still, I find it hard to believe that if you found 16/225's with the right profile to keep them the proper height, you wouldn't get some benefit in handling out of the extra 20 cm of width. But I'm not an expert here. This decision is a long ways out. I only have 11K miles on these tires and I just can't bring myself to toss out 4 perfectly good tires.

Actually I was down there with my wifes car. We're thinking about replacing the wheels on her 84 380SL. If you can believe, the stock wheels are 14" with 205/70 tires! We're thinking of going to 16" wheels with as much width as the car will handle ( or the propoer tire profiles will provide) when it's time to replace the tires. My mechanic has a similar car and he has gone to 17" and loves them. Not enough side wall for me though.

jamrock4

Liquid glass is something you would apply like a wax to the entire car. Was hoping it would minimize paint chips. Brought up this issue on another forum and found someone who actually used the product but it did not reduce chips. I have used touch up paint on my current car but I can easily tell where I apply the touch up paint.

The ideal solution would be for Lexus to come up with a super duper chip resistant paint job for the 2002 ES but I know that is just wishful thinking.

mbaudibest1

actually when CandD did the test, the ES was beginning its 3rd model year (1997 design). it was beat out by the TL and the 300M. edmunds rated it 7th place out of 10 in their entry luxury comparo, beat out by the A4 which is even older than the ES and 5 other cars. but in any case, the ES will be replaced in a few months.

alpha01

thanks, buddy. i'll take constructive criticism anyday, but I can count, so yea. here goes: 97 model year (thats one) 98 model year (thats two) 99 model year (thats three) and 2000 model year (thats four). so like I said, in the fourth model (of its current generation) the ES posted a respectable 3rd place finish out of 10, as rated by Car and Driver.

further proof that the ES was in its 4th model year-- Toyota typically "freshens" styling/tweaks engines at this time in its typical 5 year product style. the 2000 ES was the first year with the 210 hp VVT 3.0 liter, and front and rear styling are slightly altered....

michaelf2

I have a 1997 ES 300 with 60K miles. I notice a vibration around 65 MPH on the steering wheel and the passenger seat vibrates as well. Knowing that I needed new tires, I purchased them thinking the vibration would go away. However the vibration still persists. The front end has been aligned and I took it back to make sure the wheels were balanced correctly. Could I need new struts already? Any help would be appreciated.

trublu2

I am now in a 2000 ES300, but when I had my 1997, I did have to replace struts at the 60K mark. I remember as I had just passed the warranty period for miles, but not for years. They told me that it would be covered as the car was so young and then they quickly backtracked when they saw the mileage. I would bet on it.

dstorey

I am just beginning to look at the AS 300 as the car I would like to purchase, however I am unsure of how to proceed in the negotiations for price. It is my understanding that I should offer the Dealer an amount over the Invoice price, is this correct and at what $ amount should I allow in order to make a good deal and also let the sales person make a living? Any suggestions will be appreciated.

tgif888

try www.carsdirect.com it is selling the ES300 below invoice.

s852

Carsdirect only has it at below invoice in a few parts of the country.
$1000 over invoice should be plenty for this out-going model's last months of availability.
If they don't want it, then buy one from Carsdirect.com without needing to haggle.

mbaudibest1

you technically should count the car's age in this manner: 97-98 = 1st year 98-99=2nd, 99-00=3rd. only if the test was nearing the end of 200 would i call it a 4th model year car. but this is severe nitpicking.....

domettg

Actually, 1999 was the first year for the 210HP vvt-i engine. I have a '99. They also added the homelink transmitter, side airbags and standard traction control I believe. The 2000 model year did the minor face lift to front and rear, more wood on the center console, etc.

alpha01

domettg- you're right, i stand corrected! I hope you enjoy your ES! (My uncle-I'm 20- recently let me borrow his 2000 RX for a weekend trip... that engine works beautifully even with the RX's weight.. I can imagine its only even smoother and quicker in the ES)
mbaudibest1- No.

Does anyone know or speculate as to whether or not the new ES will be gaining a fifth ratio for its tranny?

r3fico

Yes, the '02 will have a 5 speed mated to the same V-6 currently on the ES 300. Was a little disappointed when I heard Lexus was not going to be replacing the engine in the '02, but I guess the reason for that is Lexus does not want to marginalize the GS 300. The body & mechanicals are all new though. Hope we see a RWD ES 300 not too far in the future :-)

texbean

You should be able to do much better than $1000 over invoice. I just bought a 2001 ES300 at $200 over invoice at a dealer in Dallas. It took about an hour of back and forth, but in the end I told them that's all I was going to do and if they didn't take the offer I was heading straight to the Acura dealer and buy a TL. I was nice about it, but just stated facts. I was serious and was walking out the door when the sales manager intercepted me and took my deal. We can't use carsdirect.com in Texas, so we lose a little leverage, but if you are armed with the facts and stand firm, you can get a deal right now on a great car.

Larry

domettg

I am very disappointed if the 02 ES300 is not getting a bigger engine. Hopefully, they have made some teaks to boost low end torque and also to get rid of the awfull delay that exists when kicking down on the gas pedal to get the tranny to downshift into 2nd. If they haven't made some of these performance improvements, they better drop the price alot or the Acura 3.2TL-S at 260HP will be eating the ES300's lunch.

s852

It's almost a given that they will refine any transmission shift issues and add at least a few horsepower with the new model.
Most likely the new ES will be smoother, quieter and more refined and luxurious. It is not likely to be the fastest sedan for the money.
People are buying the ES300 for smooth, refined driving, not to drag race with 260 HP Acura TL-S's.
You can bet it will not be faster to 0-60 than an IS or GS. That would step on those cars which are marketed more for performance.

jamrock4

There is the possibility that Lexus may surprise us. The original plan may have been to add just a few horsepower but it does not make logical sense for Lexus to ignore the powerful engines in the TL-s and the upcoming Infiniti.

I respectfully disagree with the comment that a powerful IS would step on IS or GS cars. Those who love the IS (mostly X gen types) would not be caught dead in an ES. Those who tend to like the GS are unwilling to give up rear wheel drive in favor of front wheel drive.

r3fico

As much as I would like the 02 to have a new powerplant, it's not going to happen this year. Apparently the I35 and TLS will have bragging rights for the next year at least. My comments are based on what I heard from my dealer, who I consider to be as credible a source as it gets. At best, we can expect an engine tweaked for a few more ponies. The biggest shortcomings of the current generation ES are the transmission and the suspension. I hear both these will be addressed - by the 5 speed and the new platform respectively. Things to look forward to are the navigation system and the Mark Levinson system. Also there will be a bunch of new colours.

ved3

How's everybody doing?

alpha and mbaudibest,
you're both right. think about it.

s852 makes a good point. people buy ES mostly
for its unmatched refinement, smoothnest, and
reliability; not to drag race. I think you're
leaning toward buying the 2002 ES aren't you?
It is disappointing not to be able to expect
a more powerful engine with the 02 ES. but since
the ES is so popular in entry level luxury, it's
reasonable to believe that it might take some
business away from its siblings. If Lexus can't
sell enough IS, GS, etc, they will be forced to
drop these cars like the SC coupe. I think if
they make the ES more powerful, they would have
to do the same for IS, GS, or add other features
that the ES don't have.

but I wanna remain an optimist like Jamrock.
Lexus just might surprise us if not 2002 then
maybe 2003. by then, the IS might gain enough
popularity so that Lexus wouldn't have to worry
about holding back on the ES.

mathtype

To see allegedly accurate drawings of the 2002 ES, click on the "Windom"in "This month's scoops" at:

http://www.mag-x.com/scoop_index.html

"New Model Magazine X" is a Japanese publication that has a good reputation for reliablility, but after you view these drawings, you may hope that they're very wrong this time. The URL given above will also get you a short description of the changes in the ES (there are 25.4 millimeters to the inch, so get out your calculator) plus good pictures of the new Camry (which, strangely enough, is called the Camry in Japan).

mbaudibest1

any official dates for the release of the new car in the US?

domettg

I don't feel that putting a bigger engine in the ES will step on other's toes. I think all of the cars in the Lexus lineup are different enough that one doen't make a purchase decision based on power or speed alone. Someone who buys the IS wants a VERY sporty car with great handling, etc. and is not as concerned with interior space, quietness, etc. IMHO. The GS on the other hand is larger than the ES, even more luxurious and significantly more expensive. Also, I think it is inevitable that the GS300 will get a larger engine in the not too distant future. Each car has it's market niche. I'm not even going to mention the LS or SC since they are in a differnt league altogether. The bottom line, IMHO, is that ALL of these cars are Lexus automobiles meaning that they are expected to be performance oriented luxury cars to various degrees. If I own a ES300 or any other Lexus, I expect it to be faster than say a V6 Mazda 626. I also expect it to have great quality, the best creature comforts and great service. When I take someone for a ride in my car, I shouldn't have to make excuses as to why it has just mediocre performance. After all, Lexus is a luxury marque and even the low end of the lineup has to meet certain standards and expectations. Dont' get me wrong, I love my ES but I think that it needs something more than a fancier interior to differentiate it from a V6 Camry.

dwd01

The battery type is not listed in the owners manual,( it says contact the dealer) and since I don't have the old battery, the Radio Shack guys don't have a clue which one it is. Can anyone out there open their Key & give me info off their battery?

dardson1

anybody following this crazy sludge issue? is it a bunch of bull? just roaming around this site, pulled up the "engine sludge" topic off the top ten town hall sites....a little scary

mwikle

I have been following, but am not joining in as logic seems to have no place in it.

My speculation is that sludging cars were not fully maintained. Their speculation is that is not true...this is the net take it all like a bar conversation on sports ...

Chrysler did have famous sludge issue years ago due to design of engine and changes in oil specs. Also some oils (very few) might not be blended correctly, and have heard of oil changes not done but charged for too.

I am in the Lubricants industry. Without data if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck until proven otherwise. Thus almost all sludges are result of no or fraudulent maintenance, or even less likley, but possible, mis blended oils...

ved3

domettg and mwikle,
you guys are probably right. I think a long
time ago on this forum some people complained
about sludge buildup. enigmaone then shared
a story about a woman whose GS just died
because she had never changed the motor oil.
I think he said the car had 28000 miles(don't
try it at home!). a very expensive repair.

so I would stick with following the owner's
manual with any car, not just lexus, when it
comes to proper maintenance. it's also this
uncertainly about accurate records that makes
buying brand new cars a lot better than used
ones. the used lexus you just bought may not
have been properly cared for. but for the
new lexus, you have the control of all its maintenance. it's up to its first owner.

rickc5

if the previous owner(s) had their cars serviced at Lexus dealers. The little book in the glove box would then contain all the service history, with the dealer's stamps certifying the work was done at a Lexus dealer.

Used car dealer would be wise to ASK owners for service records if they are available. In Germany, service records are considered an absolute when selling a used car. No records = VERY low selling price, for the reason you stated. We could learn something from the Germans in this regard.

ved3

rick,
you're right. there should be no uncertainty
for people who want to buy used cars.
but unfortunately in the real world, there is.
can't be completely sure even with the record
book. if people are desperate enough, they will
find a way to get around disclosing an accurate
record regulated by law. don't know about you
but I would buy a new lexus over a used one,
even the so called certified pre-owned, anyday.
except if I'm to choose between a used lexus(not too high mileage) and a new comparable car by
other luxury makes. then it's a tough decision.

when it comes to reliable used cars, lexus is
probably the best. but there's always an
uncertainty to anything. so if you can, buy
it new.

lisampls

Hi...I'm new to this board, so I am looking for some help.
Currently in the market for a new vehicle, but not exactly sure what I want. I started out pining for the RX300, then felt it was too small for me. I have a deposit down on an Acura MDX, but as my delivery slowly approaches, I'm not sure I want to do the SUV thing. I am now looking at cars in the "luxury sedan" market, including the ES, Acura TL, BMW 325 or 330 or the Audi A4/A6 Quattro.
Making a short story long, what is Lexus warranty and/or service agreement? I know they are known for their great customer service, but does the warranty include any maintainence?
Both Audi and BMW have 4 year warranties in which everything service-related is covered...from brakes to engine trouble, down to oil changes and replacing winshield wipers (only thing it excludes is tires.)
Looking to see what the deal is (or not) with Lexus.
I appreciate your feeback.
Lisa

lenscap

The included maintenance on the BMWs is a joke. First of all, their cars are thosands of dollars more, so they simply include the price of the maintenance in the price of the car. Second, they will only pay for servicing your car when the "service" light on the dashboard lights up. With oil changes, this is about every 15,000 miles. If you want to change your oil sooner (which you should), you have to pay for it. Third, I believe while the warranty is four years, the paid service is only for three years. Make sure you check that out. Fourth, if you keep the car longer than three years even routine maintenace can be very expensive, about double that of the Lexus.

justfind6

I bought a used ES300, brought it in for a service, and they did the front brakes for free under warranty. I didn't even think to ask about the warranty when I dropped the car off, they just did it and told me later.
I like that kind of service!

texplorer

I've seen a few questions about what prices to offer over invoice in order to close a good deal. The BEST and EASIEST way I did it was through a method described on www.fool.com (similar to the "Blast Fax" method under 'Advice' here in Edmunds). I preferred fool.com for explicit guidelines (just do a search under 'automobile' and look for "How to Buy a Car." It provides a nice sample letter to send out, which I "softened" just a little so as not to sound too aggressive.

In early May (didn't even wait until the end of the month), I faxed or e-mailed all the fleet managers of dealers in the eastern half of Texas (most within 3 hours of Austin, where I live), and asked them for a bid on the specific car I was interested in (white w/ivory interior, Value Pkg, wood steering wheel, trunk mat, wheel locks--the now 'standard' Value configuration). They had 3 days to respond, including a specific time deadline--let them know you mean business. Bids started coming in within 24 hours and could range considerably, but my last (and half-day late) bid came from Grapevine, TX at $30,500 --($119 OVER INVOICE!--an internet deal of theirs). I simply took this quote in writing to my sales person at Lexus of Austin and explained how I had been obtaining bids from area dealers. He asked for my best bid, and I presented it to him in writing (he said "wow!"). He brought it to the sales manager who matched it dollar-for-dollar without ANY haggling at all! In 15 minutes I was signing papers for a cash deal (which wasn't even an issue in the purchase price). The fact that they had 5 cars on the lot exactly like the one I was interested in helped, I'm sure. We went out on the lot and I selected my car of choice (that had just come off the transport truck) and took delivery the next afternoon. This was by far THE most painfree, hassle-free way of getting what I felt was a great deal on the exact car that I had been looking at for months. And yes, being part of the "Lexus Family" and the service they deliver IS a whole different car-owning experience! So good luck!

tomkun

ES300 called Windom in Japan, how do you think the style?

http://mag-x.com/scoop/windom0106/01.jpg

http://mag-x.com/scoop/windom0106/02.jpg

ved3

hey everybody

tomkun,
thanks for sharing. I'd still keep an openmind
until we get the official unveiling from lexus.

I did see drawings of the new camry in a preview
magazine, pics of new altima, and new bmw 7 series
and they all look stunning. The camry
has sleeker sportier exterior, allegedly more
power, better handling. but the new 7 series looked really good.

lisa,
as you can see, most of us here are very happy
with our cars and the lexus experience. people
generally are selfish. when they have to spend
money, they often think what's in it for me. so
lexus will do everything they can to please you
if you decide to buy their product. this includes
their warranty program which may not be the best
but most people don't need them since lexus cars are so refined, efficient, and reliable.
I've been in this forum for a long time and I do
often check out the claims that people here make.
and overall I find that the guys here are genuine
compared to others in bmw, mercedes forums. that's
why I keep coming back here so I can also learn
about the lexus that I drive everyday.
but the decision is yours. good luck with your
new car.

texplorer,
that's very clever. consumers are getting smarter

kschlink

Before I got my Lexus, I researched like crazy on the net. I found the best price at Carsdirect.com. Two dealerships in the LA area assured me that they would meet the price. The dealer I bought from showed the printout to the manager, and came back and agreed to the price--no hassels, no pressure. I got my beautiful ES 300 Coach Edition for under invoice and didn't have to negotiate! I love my car--It drives like a dream and the standard sound system is wonderful.

BTW: Is there a less expensive place to find additional CD magazines, though? They're $38 each at my Lexus dealership and it is not that easy to change them all the time.

parnola

I picked up a few CD magazines off eBay about 6 months ago. Paid $15/each. They work fine.

carlo7

Lisa,

I was just reading the window sticker from our 2000 ES300 and in fine print at the bottom it states the first 2 scheduled maintenance services are included in the price of the car. I bought the car as a manager's used car with 3,500 miles on it and the dealership did the 5,000 mile checkup (basically an oil change) as part of the purchase deal. I haven't been back for a second service, but will ask about this before I pay for it.

Good luck.