Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

stever

Chicago Tribune New Cars Column

Steve
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

ficuss

I have noticed that when my fan does roar on startup, there is a loss of power. I wonder if this is really a lack of power, not a drain of power. I think the programmer's thought may have gone like this: If the fan is on, then the car must be overheating. If the car is overheating, then we should limit the RPM's to keep the engine from overheating even more. My old 2001 TB fan would come on only when the car was running hot. It did feel like there was a lack of power at that time. My 2002TB fan has come on several times when cold. Each time, It feels like you cannot get enough RPM's to get moving quickly. I think this is by design, bad as it may be, but still by design. The fix will ultimatly address both parts of this problem. Unneeded fan operation and resulting limiting of power to prevent self destruct. GMdrone, could you present this to your peers?

jmw4

I think you are right on the money. Sometimes you can hear the fan above the engine which is what I would consider normal. However I also experience the "jet engine" sound and drastic power draw which inhibits the vehicles ability to accelerate within the 1st few minutes of a cold start. This is the issue that many of us have complained about and which GM has no fix yet. I have had my TB in for the reprogramming fix twice but it still infrequently happens, probably once every 2 or 3 weeks. I guess compared to some of the other problems I have heard on this board from these trucks, I should to some degree consider myself lucky.

dieselnerd

After reading several of the responses I've also come to the conclusion that we may very well have 2 separate fan issues. 1. Normal cold start noise which I and others experience and doesn't sound like a jet taking off, just a fan blowing air which quickly dies down and doesn't reduce power. 2. Full engagement of the fan which could be electrical as described by ficuss and theham. I suppose it's possible that the PCM "thinks" the engine is overheating, engages the fan on full speed and reduces power to help cool what it senses is an overheated condition. I have no clue how this could happen without setting an error code but when you have as many circuits as these vehicles do I'm sure it's within the realm of possibility. Does your dashboard light indicate "reduced power" when the fan engages at full speed? There is a reduced power indicator that is supposed to light whenever power is reduced by the PCM.

jaguar0027

Thanks for the help on the Trailblazer info. I think I now know everything there is to know about FAN NOISE.

theham

No reduced power dash light comes on. This is a hard problem for the dealer to understand as well. They think that the fan noise is just an excessively loud fan under normal operation that many people probably complain about. So whenever you say fan noise they think you are nuts and say it is normal. And since it is an interrmittant problem the tech will only start it once in the morning and if the jet noise doesn't happen then they say it just a normal loud fan noise and you are stuck argueing with the idiots at the front desk.

tsd0527

My mom has a Trailblazer with plenty of problems and quality issues. I thought the fan clutch was causing the poor shift quality and hesitation with a cold engine. However, our neighbors brought home a new one on a test drive and now I know what the problem really sounds like. Loud, very, very loud. This thing was brand new and sounded like some kind of hovercraft or 747 at takeoff. It was at 100% lockup for some unknown reason and you could still hear it one block up the street. I couldn't believe the dealer let that thing off the lot. Surely there is a soultion or one is in the works. At any rate, GM can only fix about half of the problems with this piece of a vehicle that my parents bought and the dealer's excuses are as pathetic as the truck. It's a shame because I like the car's styling O.K. and a 4-runner would have cost less with fewer problems. Anyway, I now appreciate my reliable F-150 with 150K on it and will buy another when it wears out at about 250K. P.S. Her sevice department also put the license plate surround gasket around the license plate and not where it was designed to go. Oh well, at least they try.

rj123456

I just got my Envoy XL (Pewter, SLT, but I digress) license plates. There are screws for the rear license plates but for the front, there is just a sleeve with what looks like little tabs that sort of hold the plate in the sleeve, but as its currently set up any one can easily lift the plate out.

It appears if I were to screw the plates in the screw would drive directly into the front bumper metal (or plastic??). Any suggestions?

email: rj123456@yahoo.com

pauleul

OK, for those with the "JET ENGINE" noise, get out your video recorder (or tape recorder if you don't have video). Set it up in the garage and record what is going on. Open the hood and film the action of the fan. Talk in a normal voice (or scream over the noise if necessary). Keep it running until the noise dies down.

Now take the video to your dealer. I don't think they will be able to deny or tell you it is normal if the problem is anywhere near what you have described here.

In addition, those who wish to invoke the lemon law should find it pretty easy with three video tapes after three attempts by your dealer to fix.

By the way, you may want to mention to your dealer what you intend to do with the videos (RE; lemon law) as it might prompt more positive action.

You guys need to start roaring louder than your fans!

2,200 miles on my Envoy and still zero mechanical problems and I've never been able to hear any fan noise whatsoever. Then again, shortly after I pull away, the Bose would drown out anything short of a nuke going off. ;-)

Go for it!

Paul

navyair

Time to replace the family van. We like the style and reports on this board of the Envoy XL (and sister Trailblazer). Anyone have any experience comparing the Envoy against the Ford Expedition? Envoy XL SLT with professional tech package runs almost the same as the '03 Expedition comparably equipped.

Thanks. JC

storm34

When I was doing the "walkaround" before handing over my check, I asked my salesman where the screws were for the front plate. He said the plate just sits in the sleeve. I said "not on my car" He went and found a couple of screws and with a little "elbow grease", screwed it in. It's amazing how accomodating they are while you're still holding the cash.

theham

Yeah that is a good sugestion. If I had a video camera I would definitly so that. Maybe I will buy one just for that. Which is find is hilarious that the GM Dealer network is so hard to deal and we as the consumer are treated so poorly by GM dealers and customer servicethat you have to spend money to get them to recognize a problem. What happened to the days when a mechanic could actually use his intelligence to trouble shoot a mechanical or electrical problem.

I love when they say well a GM Certified Tech said that fan noise is normal. Like these guys are the end all be all auto gurus. All they actually do is hook up the diagnostics computer to the serial port under your dash, start the car and wait for an error code. If no error code is produced they give it a clean bill of health. And they trust the onboard computer more than anything. Which is an irononic since you are bringing a car to them with problems controlled by the onboard computer.

Anyway if anyone else tries to take it to the dealer. A suggestion. Don't say the word Fan Noise. They will immediatly think you are a whining consumer and will placate you with any sentence they can think of to get rid of you. Describe it as extreme engine racing and power loss. That way they actually look at the problem. Instead of thinking you are whining about above average fan noise.

It's one thing to have a porblem that can be fixed. It's another to be ignored and manhandled by a corporate network until you give up all hope of have a non annoying and properly working vehicle. And don't think the being loyal to GM will help you in any way. Between myself and my family I have had 4 blazers. Ancountless GM vehicles from oldsmobile to chevy to gmc to pontiac. Currently In a familyof 5 we have 4 GM vehicles.But tell that to a dealer to try to get some sympathy and they dont care. I would recommend anyone to rethink a GM purchase. You might fall in love with the looks of a car at the lot and in marketing photos. But the second you have a problem with you will curse GM to high hell.

Crap there went another venting post. Sorry

jac27

I am about to take my Bravada in for the fuel line recall, and hope to get other improvements done also. I found the calibration info on the GM site, but am looking for a list of other improvements (mirror activator, license plate gasket, etc.). Is there such a list on a GM website?

pauleul

I'm going to make a guess, you aren't very happy with GM?

If you think a GM Certified Tech who thinks your fan should sound like a 747 taking off is bad, what do you think about the Tech's who are putting the tailgate insert gasket around the actual license plate instead of where it's supposed to go? They do have access to a TSB which gives detail and a picture.

Flaming aside, I would hate to be a Tech trying to fix a problem I couldn't duplicate. And I'm sure they could tell some pretty good stories about owners who were not the sharpest knives in the drawer either.

Here's another idea for you since you don't have a video camera. Most stores will allow you a 15 or 30 day trial. You keep the camera long enough to get your proof, then take it back and say you don't want it (tell them it makes too much noise).

Hey, wouldn't that be cool if you could buy a vehicle that way? Actually have a 30 day return period? Course, that wouldn't help those who didn't experience any noise problems until later.

GM Service Info (jac27) -- try this link to Tim's site:

http://www.timlauro.com/cars/trailblazer/1-main-page.html

Then click on "Problems", you should find what you're looking for.

Paul

stever

Great post Netsolstice. I was once sitting in an office with a friend who took a call on his speaker phone. My friend got mapquest running and was giving his cellphone buddy directions to some hotel in LA on some interstate. We were 2,000 miles away from him :-). Didn't even need a GPS since there were so many exits down there to chart his progress by.

Everyone should have their own private little "OnStar".

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

pauleul

I have the Nav system in my '01 Acura. It works great, is easy to use, is very fast to calculate a new course. It's much less distracting than trying to follow written directions or a map while driving. A short test would not be a fair assessment as it is very overwhelming the first few times you use it.

No it isn't always accurate. Just like maps (including on-line stuff). New roads and changes take time to get through the systems and even if you bought an update disc every year, you might not get the latest changes to the roads in your area. Updates cost around $150. Covers the entire US and you can't buy any other areas. Smaller cities in many areas are not covered. Great coverage in major metropolitan areas (at least those I checked in western US).

Cost was $1800, ($2000 invoice) and I bought it expecting it was a toy. Have found it very useful but don't know that I would spend the money again.

If you don't care what you spend, buy it. If you do care how much it costs, think twice. If you are in sales and are constantly making calls, it would be a very valuable asset and in my opinion worth the money.

minn_tb

Well, the summer finally arriving in MN has brought warm weather, and much better gas mileage. I think my TB is finally broken in, I have 13000 miles on it.

I went up North this weekend, and on the trip up (150 miles), I got 24.2 on the DIC (speed was 64.2mph using the timer and odometer). Driving around a little (in town) dropped it to 22.8, but it went back to 23.3 on the trip back (total of 330 miles). I filled up and calculated 22.63 mpg, whic is the usual 0.7 lower than the DIC.

So I guess these can get good mileage. Overall average speed was 59.8mph, the middle 30 miles were at about 25-30 mph).

Since the beginning, I have tracked, and am averaging 18.12 mpg, about 1/2 and 1/2 city/highway. This winter was total about 16.7, which I believe due to engine warm-up, and also the lower grade of gas here in Mpls. during the Oct-April timeframe.

One last point. I did install a K&N filter at about 7000 miles.

Minn_tb

scottc454

I know this topic has been beaten to death, but it appears there is a solution. I had the fan noise big time in the past and now it is gone almost completely.

The fan used to come on every morning and sometimes
on the highway after driving in the mountains for a while. I had the full jet engine sound.

One time the service engine light came on during this jet engine behavior. I took the Trailblazer in and they said they replaced the fan clutch. I'm not sure but they probably upgraded the ECM at this time too.

Now the fan does sometimes come on when starting the TB, but very rarely - not a problem at all. This is just a fluid issue and I verified it by pulling the cooling fan fuse. Anway, over the weekend I had my first true test - I drove all over the state of Colorado, and through several mountain passes. There was no jet engine syndrome at any point.

Obviously, the service engine light was the key to my success here. I heard the "It's designed to work that way" stuff before and I don't know how I'd convince them to fix it without that magic light.

Maybe they'll learn from this and won't be so quick to dismiss future complaints. The jet engine behavior isn't normal and shouldn't be something "you'll just have to live with."

mgrcm

Does anyone know how much to tighten the wheel lug nuts on the 02 Envoy?Is it 80 or 100 lbs.
Thanks in advance.

Rick

dshepherd3

100 psi is the right torque.

dshepherd3

Any info out there on a brighter replacement headlamp bulb? thanks

theham

My impression of GM is getting worse. However my impression of the GM dealers is even worse. I'll bet just as any profession goes there are some extremely qualified GM techs and some extremely stupid GM techs. The problem really arises with the process of getting a tech to look at your car. Everyone familiar with the grapevine concept where a sentence enters through one person and come out completely different 3 people later. Well that's what happens at the dealers. No matter how educated you think you are on the issues and inner workings of a vehicle, you are telling this to a customer service person at the front counter, who doesn't have the knowledge that you have just researched and then tries to relay their impression of the problem to the tech. In a sense they dumb it down then send it on. I would actually hate to see people "who were not the sharpest knives in the drawer" trying to explain a problem to the person at the front counter and see how it is relayed to the tech.

I find GM dealers do a reasonablly well job of fixing problems that they are 100% aware of before you arrive at their front door. But they don't seem to have the capacity for troubleshooting problems out of the ordinary. As vehicles are further controlled by onboard computers, which have embedded software created by software engineers interfacing with mechanical components, most problems will turn into intermitent and "glitchy" problems. Which are of course the hardest to fix for the techs. And until the common workforce of vehicle techinicians get used to troublshooting glitchy problems, a consumer with glitchy problem is in for a frustrating world of pain.

As far as the gasket problem. I will probably get flamed for this statement from people who have found it frustrating and worked to get it noticed by GM. But I haven't even mentioned it to the dealer. To me it is a cosmetic problem that can be addressed at any time and really doesn't affect the daily use of the car. So maybe after I get the rest of the technical problems fixed I might take it in for the gasket problem.

I dropped it off again today for the noise and HVAC issues(set it at manual high fan at 80 degrees and it blows cold air), and transmission delay is pretty bad. Also I think I am starting to hear an engine knock. Which might just be in my head because I am overly sensitive to the car right now but who knows. I'll wait for a while to see if the engine knock gets worse after i get the car back.

What I think will be a short post always turns out long for some reason.

stever

Maybe we should start laminating TSB's and the like, and tape them to the inside of the hood in the engine compartment, along with, say, a ten dollar bill?

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

paisan

That is damn high for alloy wheels! All others I've seen are 85psi at max.

-mike

scottc454

In fairness to the dealers, I think the sad fact is that it's necessary for them to filter out a lot of stuff. I'm sure there are tons of people who go to the dealer for every little tiny noise they heard or "this did that" or whatever. Hell, we have people trying to use 4 wheel drive on dry pavement and wondering why they have problems.

I don't mean to overly defend them, but I can understand what they must go through.

tblazed

That should be 100 lb. ft.(pound-feet) of torque not 100 pounds per square inch (psi). Hopefully someone won't actually inflate their tires to 100 PSI!!

paisan

I meant 85ft-lbs. Never seen a manual call for alloys to be torqued more than 80-85ft-lbs. You might warp the rotors and/or damage the wheels or break the studs taking them off.

-mike

dse1

also HAD the fan problem. took it in to the dealer first, they claimed it operated the same as the others on the lot... (problem was fan locking up in the mountains - pretty bad when you can't pass a 1/2 ton truck towing a trailer) next time it was in for service , the fan locked up on them when they took it out to confirm their fix (axle seal) so they replace the clutch mechanism... worked fine for another month or so, and same problem again in the mountains... fix- this time they reprogrammed it, and it hasn't happened again, doesn't turn on in the mornings either which it did off and on in the past, just back from a 1550 mile trip through oregon/no california and no fan problems. hope it stays this way but won't really know til next winter...

dshepherd3

My apologies for momentary brain absence on the "100 psi wheel tightening" Maybe we all needed a good laugh( I hope!)

pepper50

tblazed:
Here is a site that has clear hood deflectors, as well as individual colors to match the painted colors of one's vehicles; i.e., they have pewter hoodshields for pewter vehicles, indigo, white, etc. But they have the clear and smoke acrylic as well as one called carbon fiber, too. Here is the link:

Autoventshade Bugflector II and then click on the link for "Find Gear for My Vehicle" and you will see 6-8 colors for your vehicle.

Here is another site that also has the clear deflector:
Lund Interceptor Bugshield
Good luck!

pepper50

RJ:
I, too, wondered if the screws might impinge on the front bumper fascia, but I was able to barely get a finger behind the license holder, enough to estimate the length of a screw that would fit. To see exactly where the screw would come out, I first laid on my back and looked up under there to get a visual estimate. Then I inserted the license plate and used a sharp awl to mark the bottom holes, then carefully twisted the awl thru the plastic until I could feel it imprinting my fingertip and making sure it was not hitting the bumper fascia. I was able to tell that at least in my case, it was low enough that I could use about a 5/8"-3/4" screw. So I got 2 #8 stainless screws of that length and washers for the front side of the plate and behind the plastic I used a couple of #8 square nylon license plate nuts; the kind that normally insert into square holes and have little "feet" that expand. It might not have even needed a nut, but I felt like it secured a little more against vibration. Like others, I didn't want to leave mine "unscrewed" since someone could just reach down and take it. Granted, someone could still take it, but it would take more effort and time to unscrew everything, so not quite as tempting. By the way, you shouldn't need to do any drilling. The plastic is soft enough that you can use the awl to make a small starting hole and then a screw goes in easily enough.

bleffler

I inquired at Uhltronics as to when their Triad2 would be available for the Bravada. For those that aren't familiar, it will allow other cell phones to integrate into the vehicle's system bus.

"What we found out is that GM uses at least two
different communication systems. The Chevy Avalanche,
Yukon, etc, have pin #14 located in the DLC (OBD2)
connector. This connector is located under the dash by
the steering wheel. I believe the Bravada only has 4
pins, which does not include pin #14. There should be
pins #2,4,5,16. When looking at the data stream on
pin#2 there was a lot of signals. The problem is to
pick out the right one. That is what the instrument
sent back to the factory is suppose to do. We will
still work towards having a complete solution for all
of the GM vehicles. The variation between models caught
us by surprise, but this problem is solvable. This
project has already taken a lot more time then
envisioned. Thanks for your interest and support."

Respectfully
UHLTronics LLC
Sandra & Jim Uhl

sean48

Thanks to everyone who has provided observations about...and experiences with...navigation systems.

The fact is, I don't need a nav system in my next vehicle, but I do want a nav system. In other words, it's more of a toy than a tool. Having said that, I won't make a decision based solely on the availability of (and quality of) a navigation system, but it will play a big part in my decision.

I have used navigation systems on rental cars, and I've been impressed with their accuracy (though not necessarily their selected routes for destinations that I was familiar with). Plus they look cool (heh, some folks go for custom wheels and tires, I like techno-gadgets).

I like the overall package of features in the GMC Envoy, and hoped they would add the option of a navigation system in their '03 models to clinch the deal for me. If they don't offer a system, I'll have to seriously consider the '03 4Runner.

Thanks again for the comments, and if anyone knows for sure if a nav system is likely for the '03 Envoy, I'd love to hear about it.

byrd17

I've read post #6036 from bobbies. Have you, or anyone else reading this, gotten GM to do anything about the paint problem on the front edge of the rear wheel opening? I don't have running board, do have front mud flaps, and after 6,000 it is looking bad already. The GM service advisor told me, in a rather arrogant tone, that as nothing is wrong with the paint, there is nothing GM will do. However, they will re-paint and apply rhino guard if I pay for it. I'd like to know other cases where GM has fixes this problem. Thanks for your help.

quickdtoo

FWIW the "real" figure according to the factory service manual is 92ft/lbs torque, not 85 or 100.
Tim

tblazed

"Wheel Nut Torque .....100 lb-ft (140 N-m)" is directly quoted from my 2002 TrailBlazer Owners Manual, page 6-63 under "Wheels and Tires". That's what I go by. OR until GM issues a TSB! (wish I could see it! ANOTHER example and reason for making TSBs available to us owners HELLO GM... )

Pepper50 - THANKS! for doing my homework for me! Now that I know they exist I will look around here locally and see what I can find.

paisan

Specify Alloy or Steel wheel? It should cause it will be different for each.

-mike

racoonlodge

justa fyi:
Took TSB for the rear gasket around license plate for Trailblazer, dealer ordered it and installed it today No Charge (gasket or labor, or shipping!). Listed on the invoice for work order "Replaced missing gasket". My dealer did not blink an eye or put up any resistance. I must say, if you didn't have it installed yet, go for it.
It does look better and should save headaches later...

macman246

Click here.

Sorry about the pop-up ads. Nothing's free anymore.

cmack4

My manual also specifies 100lb ft torque. The only steel wheel available for the triplets that I'm aware of is the spare, so I'm guessing that it is quoted for the aluminum wheels? I rotated my tires after the first oil change and didn't have any problems with the lugs at 100lb...

paisan

Can't hurt to follow the manual, at least then you can blame it on the manufacturer. Someone earlier said it was 92ft-lbs in the manual so there may be some discrepency there.

-mike

previousamigo

byrd17, What kind of front mudflaps do you have, factory or aftermarket? The factory plastic mudflaps look very skinny. It looks like a lot of rocks could get around them. I am looking for some rubber and WIDE aftermarket mudflaps. Has anyone purchased aftermarket mudflaps and what was the brand name and size? I can't find any specifically sized for the TB. It looks like Tim has aftermarket on his website.

gcunningham

I have the upgraded cd/cassette player and was wondering what the power rating for the stereo was. I am considering replacing the factory speakers, with a good component set and didn't want to add an external amp at this moment.

jtforr

Maybe I'm losing my mind but I would swear that my 2002 Envoy SLT came with both outside and inside light sensitive mirrors and that they all worked for the first few weeks. In fact, I remember commenting to my wife how cool they were. Well, I recently noticed the right outside mirror wasn't working so I took it to the dealer for servicing last week. First the service writer tells me they're working fine so we go round and round and I finally tell him I will bet him a month's salary that they don't. He then calls me back and says they're not working. Then he calls me again and claims that my Envoy's right outside mirror is not a light sensitive mirror and is not supposed to be. I go to GMC's website and it says both the outside mirrors are supposed to be light sensitive. Service writer still insists that Envoy's don't come with them on the right side. Anybody have any experience with this issue?

pauleul

SLT Exterior:

· Power, heated, light sensitive outside rearview mirrors

SLE doesn't have light sensitive mirrors

Per GMC

tblazed

RE wheel nut torque "there may be some discrepancy there" (92 vs. 100 lb-ft) between the Owners Manual and the Service manual. Hmmm... Why am I NOT surprised that there is a discrepancy? Like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

My TB - LS with the stock 16" wheels came with a cast aluminum black-painted wheel for the spare tire. The center hub is the same thickness as the other wheels making the wheel lug nuts compatible with either. Do some TB's come with a stamped-steel wheel for the spare?

I had to take mine down and finish painting the inside of the wheel visible from behind the TB. Was about 1/2 painted as received from the factory.

bruser1

Hey your right jtforr, just remembered my LTZ's right o/s mirror isn't dimming like the inside and the drivers side. Thanks, I'll add that one to my service list.

quickdtoo

Yesterday on a short trip 30 miles from home the check engine soon lamp started blinking at me after a slight hicup in forward progress at 60mph on I205. Noticed a lack of power and engine appeared to be running on less than all 6 cylinders! Took it easy the rest of the way home, lamp sometimes blinking, sometimes steady on. Went straight to the closest dealer, not where I bought it, and told em my story, got a ride home. They called today to let me know one of the ignition modules(coil on plug unit) had failed, they air freighted one in, due here tomorrow. 6700 miles and 7 months, the only serious problem so far. The liftgate strap broke Sunday, replaced it with a short piece of one of my wife's leather belts, better than new!
I'm hoping these two back to back problems are the end of breakdowns! Tim

biggie4852

It happen today first time after 9000 miles. Crank the truck and it sound like a jet engine warming up a loud roaring sound. Scared me it was so loud I was afraid my engine was going out. Then I tried to pull of and it had no power, press the gas nothing just rolling along like it was coasting down hill. After three short block it quiet down and power kick in. This is so weird and no why can you duplicate it for a dealer. I am a convert now. I had though you guys were crying wolf lol but I have join the pack.

ficuss

GM drone: are you reading the posts regarding fan noise and lack of power when fan noise exists? When I want to cross a busy intersection, or merge with fast traffic I expect to have all 270 ponies at my disposal, fan noise or not. Besides, I would prefer overheating to having PETERBUILT, or MACK stamped into my rear hatch anyway. The brochures made no mention of limited power when the engine cooling fan is engaged. It sure sounds like some software engineer took it upon himself to limit power ala shutting down cylinders to prevent over heating and damage to engine. This is something I and I'll guess no one else gave permission for the engineer to do. Is it because the all aluminum block can't take the heat or what? This is becoming a bigger issue every day now. Can we expect some positive resolution soon?
I know you are not responsible, but can you help?

Frank