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Comments
Obviously, there is a lot of confusion even within GM as to the exact problem. It isn't conceivable that the engineers looked at the failed units and some said it was the hinged bracket while others said it was the steering knuckle attachment. That's like the 3 blind men and the elephant, each coming up with a different answer depending on which part of the elephant they were feeling.
"What we have here is a failure to communicate..."
Moraine, Ohio plant.
Is yes, are they completed there or do they go on to their representative plants to get the finishing touches for the brand?
teo : You are always at risk buying anything first year. Just look at all the problems with those 2000 Honda mini vans. That being said, my mom has a first year Alero and it's been perfect.
ducky87 : I'm sure your truck will be fine with the fix. If you like it keep it.
The bracket is a 1/2" or 3/4" thick cast metal piece that is sandwiched between the lower frame rail and another piece of 1/4" thick stamped steel structure, and the whole sandwich is clamped by 3 large diameter bolts. The cast metal bracket has two extended attachement points (one at front, one at rear of the bracket) which is where the lower control arm's hinge points are attached via bushings, thrust washers (for front/rear position adjustment), and hinge bolts.
The assembly is such that it is possible to replace the bracket AND control arm without dissasembling the entire steering knuckle assembly (which would have been very complex). Instead, they can put coil spring clamps on the coil springs to compress them and to remove the tension and disconnect the lower control arm at the steering knuckle's ball joint, and then remove the control arm hinges, and then remove the bolts holding the bracket assembly to the frame.
The part of the frame to which the bracket is bolted is the lower frame rail -that is to say that the main frame rails running from rear to front of the vehicle runs below the passenger safety cage but curves up and over the front wheel assembly. The top of the coil spring, shock and upper control arm connects to this main frame rail. Another stamped steel lower frame rail is welded to the main rail and curves under the steering assembly. The recalled bracket bolts is bolted to this lower frame rail.
I surmise that they used a cast metal piece for the hinge because it is rigid and doesn't deform as easily as stamped metal (to keep front end alignment longer and more reliable). This piece doesn't bear much load because of the position of where the coil spring and shock attach to the lower control arm. The shock and coil spring transfer most of the load to the upper main frame rail.
akajoe.....Thanks for the update. You lost me somewhere in the third paragraph or so, but it was very comforting just the same. I didn't see the dreaded "W" word anywhere in the body of the message.
Allen
Go to any car audio place and listen to their speakers and car stereos and you'll hear and feel the difference.
That is bose. Totally overpriced and underperforming.
This suggests that the original bracket design was marginal - made with less than 1 sigma tolerance, no problem. Go out to 3 sigma and you get 2 defects in 30000 or 60ppm. Given the severity of this type of defect, such a component needs to be able to tolerate 3 sigma variation in manufacture with 0ppm defects.
It also suggests that GM did not test the vehicles on 6000 pre-production units during the 1Million miles of testing. Otherwise, statistically they would have detected the defect since you can't produce 12000 brackets and not have 3 sigma variation even in controlled pre-production. Temperature variations in the factory during casting could contribute to that much deviation.
Now, a problem due to marginal design is not a lifetime test issue which a 1 million mile test would address. It is an issue of whether the design specifications are adequate across the deviations in manufacturing that can be expected. The couple of ten or more control brackets used in the vehicles driven the 1 million miles may very well have been 1 sigma components and indeed prove that a bracket built to specifications will last in excess of 1 million miles. That's great. Now prove that a bracket built to specifications plus or minus 1.5 sigma deviation will last as long (or even a few days).
So go ahead and complain about what the General has changed. I hope they didn't sluff it off on the supplier and tell them to tighten their manufacturing to 1 sigma. Can't be done, they'd need to build a silicon wafer plant to get those tolerances. Then they must have gone back to their simulators and beefed up the area where the fracture occured so that it could tolerate plus or minus 1.5sigma variation (in simulation). Or did they rule of thumb it and thicken up the metal in those areas by 1.5x or maybe 2x? Whatever it is they did, I guarantee you that 6000 units haven't been made and run for 1 million miles.
What is the proof that this fix is the "one".
Now, your assessment about the fix matches that of a friend of mine who happen to build cars -not mechanic-; he told me the same thing 1 1/2 hour to replace + alignment. it should be good as new.
Now, about the sigma thing, I gather that either the fix will not work or any thing, not just cars, can and will fail!
Here is what I think have happened, the supplier build few good ones to get the contract, those are the ones were tested, then when they got the contract, they simply screwed up!
-Alan
I do strongly agree with what tjay1911 said, Bose is not a good quality product, it is meant for mass production. Have you ever walked into a place that sells them, they are set up in a special "audition room", every thing is very well placed and that the audition is done under controlled environment! - I am not bragging here, but I have spent $4250.00 just on the speakers for my HT system, and that is considered an "entry level" if you happen to be "in it" - I mentioned that just to let you know that $500 does not buy you any thing.
Like it was said, save your $$$ and go to some place where you can customize your system.
I, for one, will not touch my basic system in the Bravada, it is great, did you spend the time to listen to it, give it a try
-Alan
Regarding the front suspension fix and the previous calculations on Six Sigma and defect rate, I must agree with those numbers in theory. However, I must add that in my experience designing and qualifying product for the automotive market, in a situation such as this where time seems to be of the essence, no accelerated testing or finite element analysis can ever guarantee a 0% defect rate, especially in such a short time frame. The trick to a quick, reliable fix is to perform the most aggressive design margin testing possible and literally intentionally overdesign the part. You cannot afford to have this problem coming back at you. You test, break, redesign...increase stress level...test, break, redesign. The trick is to continue to fail and improve the part until the reliability is grown far beyond required levels. I cannot emphasize enough the need to actually perform as many aggressive road miles as possible, in addition to requalifying through salt fox (corrosive atmosphere) and other necessary, SAE, tests. If enough margin is designed into the fix, regardless of sample size and population of product, a robust corrective action can be implemented. Give me a part that has been designed per this approach any day over a part that was estimated using computer simulations (FEA) and standard PASS/FAIL qualification standards.
Trying to build a bracket like this one repeatedly that is safe is certainly a routine thing for the design groups at GM. It is unfortunate that a defect in this component could be potentially catastrophic and therefore creates such an urgency and places such importance on getting it right. It is not the difficulty of making this part, but rather the criticality of it's function that makes this recall challenging. And this time constraint makes confidence difficult to establish because gathering the statistical data takes time which they don't have.
My second post was trying to emphasize the two different issues: reliabilty and repeatability. GM has addressed the reliability of the bracket design with their experimental data (proven by over 1 million miles of testing). They state this repeatedly with respect to the recall and how it is not a design problem. While that may be true, and congratulations to GM for such a successful test, it does not speak to the repeatability of the design during high volume manufacturing or to the defect rates of the design in manufacturing (since their sample set used during testing is too small to be statistically representative of the manufacturing process).
It very well could be, and most likely is true that the supplier produced "perfect, 1 sigma" parts to get the contract and to provide the pre-production build units. Later, they loosened up their inspection and quality controls when production went into full steam. Or, some bean counter at GM could have leaned on the supplier and caused the quality controls and material to get compromised.
So in the end, the conclusion of my second post is that I have no doubt that the design is good for 1 million miles+. Whether the design for manufacturing is good has not been empirically or experimentally proven, nor has GM addressed this with their testing data. It is simply to early in the production cycle for them to have any data on this. Whether the 3 sigma variation being produced by the supplier is higher than that allowed by GM is something that will have to be resolved by GM and the supplier. No doubt a lot of the cost of the recall will be paid by the supplier (or their liability insurer).
It is interesting to note that this component does not bear a lot of load because of the design of the front suspension. Fractures that occured are very likely due to defective castings rather than stress induced because of insufficient strength. The bracket appears to be a cast component made out of some alloy (not steel). I believe it is cast for multiple reasons: rigidity for better suspension performance, resistance to corrosion because of it's proximity to the engine, and weight.
rjvicars: $500 is what we pay for this option, take $75 off for the dealer, say another $75 for GM (a very conservative figure) - that makes the upgrade worth $350. I personally do not believe that $350.00 can buy you any thing that is drastically superior. This is just my opinion, may be my ears are bad and can not tell the difference between a stock radio and a Bose one. If that is the case, then thank God, I just saved $500.00
-Alan
For those interested in the design, development and start of production of vehicles, the book "All Corvettes are Red" is an engrossing read. It follows the C5 Corvette through this process ... from the inside.
Turns what is called a "4 wheel drive" from a 2-wheel drive to a 3 wheel drive. I wouldn't get a vehicle without it.
Thats about as easy as I can explain it. Definitely GET the rear locking differential...worth every penny IMO!
mmateyak
Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
I called M the beginning of the week and was told the same thing the rest of you hear; parts would ship soon and I should have my truck back by the end of the month. I called my dealer to confirm and he said "ay, we got two sets of parts today and got those trucks back on the road". I was a little put off as, from what the dealer told me, I had purchased the first Envoy sold in the state of NJ and mine was still in the shop, but I guess two trucks were off the road sooner than mine.
I confirmed that the fix did not involve welding, he showed me the work they did. The dealer washed my truck, filled up the tank and changed the oil since I already have 3,000 miles on it. They tried to charge me for the oil change and I gave them the riot act. The service manager came back with his tail between his legs and said I was all set.
As to compensation, I asked M every time I called and they said that the first step was to get the trucks fixed, look into how much time they spent off the road and then go from there. I am betting I don't hear another word about that.
Just wanted to let you know that the fixes are happening. Truck drives like it did when it went in. Hope everything is set now.
AR
http://www.torquecontrol.eaton.com/prodinfo/products/index.html
jim f
1. Get the 6,000 sold vehicles back on the road.
2. Get the 24,000 unsold vehicles at the dealers back on the go.
3. Lastly, start up production at Moraine.
Huh? Wire service reports (AP&UPI) say production started again yesterday, 4/19!! And yet only one person has come on this board to say they have their vehicle back, and even that post suggests the repair parts are only trickling into the dealears.
My dealer very excitedly called Wednesday to give me the late-breaking news that I had already received in the mail from GM 5 days earlier. They expected parts any day now, and would call me the minute they came in. Well, Friday has gone by and I haven't heard squat. Think I'll drive by the place tomorrow , and I bet they have vehicles back on the lot for sale. I can really have some fun with them if that turns out to be true.
Having said all that, I really am hoping they don't call me for a while. While I was very disappointed when this first happened, I have become very pragmatic about it as time has passed. At this point the longer they keep it, the better for me. I've already filed my Lemon Law 15 day "out of service" notification with GM. Every day that goes by gets me closer to the 30 day limit before they have to replace it or just buy it back. Something tells me I haven't seen the end of "out of service" days when I eventually get this back. It would be really cool to get a new one with all the bugs worked out sometime within the next two years. Man, that really sounds greedy.....oh what the heck, I guess I'll hope for it anyway!!!
But, they are out on the lots...in clear view...with price lists on their windows. I'd say they are readily for sale. They definitely arent hidden in the back of the lot or in a garage!
mmateyak
I think she might be right. But I would never tell her that.
I have only called the M Customer Assistance line once and did not get any answers... this was a week and half after the recall. What really got under my skin was two days later I got a call from there contracted follow-up/survey outfit. Bottom line very upset with M Headquarters. Compensation wise... looking to get at least the first if not more monthly payments... pro-rated insurance and registration. Extension of 1 year On star contract or possible upgrade to premium service. I already purchased the extended warranty... maybe can stretch it to 100,000 miles.
Before the recall though... did get a chance to take the Envoy off-goading in Death Valley. Loved it... can't wait too get it back.
Also, I haven't paid my sales tax on the Envoy yet. The state says that if the sale is cancelled after I have paid the sales tax, I do not get the sales tax back. So I will also have late fees and penalties for paying late.
debbin67: Please hang around for at least 2 more weeks after all of us get ours back, this way we will know how good the fix is. We should be fine, I was assured many times by friends who happen to know their trade.
-Alan
By the way, who is your insurance company?? Honest Al's Bail Bonds, Title Loans, and Car Insurance, Inc. I'm just kidding, but it sounds awfully strange to me that an insurance company cannot come up with a rate for a new car. My agent didn't have any details on the truck either, but estimated the cost based on the MSRP of the vehicle. When I got the official bill from State Farm, it was pretty close.
http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national/?srv=parser&act=display&tf=/news/national/storytemplate6.tmpl
State Farm Ins $339.00 per 6 mos. Envoy premium is $488.00 per 6 mos. Durango was a class 3 rating, Envoy is rated as class 5.I live in Illinois, have a clean driving record with no claims. I soon will have a large comp claim against my ins, the rental vehicle I have got riddled by hail.
Didn't mean to rain on the parade, just wanted to point out that GM's 1 million mile testing does not go to the issue behind this recall. Therefore, while that is nice information to have that demonstrates their diligence during development, it is irrelevant to the owner's concerns about the recall fix.
Now having said that, I believe with good metallurgy and because this component doesn't bear heavy stresses, the recall fix will bring us all to the confidence level that the 1 million mile testing give us. We should all rest easy and feel confident when we get our vehicles back. I apologize for the downer #596.
As for the glass being half full, I'll drink to that. As for the rest I was just giving you a hard time. At least you've been THINKING while the rest of us have been complaining.
Credit where credit is due.