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I've done some research on Ej20 engine swaps. It is definitely not $4000 with labor! I kid you not! Until we see the new WRXs crashing all over and manage to snag one the prices even for the 218hp turbo engine is about $5-6000 and that's without the wiring harness, upgraded transmissions. When you go to the STi models, it's close to 10Gs. Alot of mulah. That is why alot of owners end up with aftermarket turbos on their 2.5 or 2.2l engines. Either way speed cost money. How fast do you want to go? =(
I'll say it again: I don't care what the car looks when the car drives nice enough. And this WRX is the perfect example....I think it's actually nice that the styling is controversial because this will separate the fashion crowd from the enthusiast....I mean...people will be surely buying this car for the driving experience and not the looks.
My summer car is a Miata and parking a silver WRX beside it would cover any conceivable driving situation. Summer topless fun in a lightweight tossable car, and a serious go fast all-weather tool in the WRX. Who could ask for more? I'm surprised the WRX is so heavy, but at least initial reviews seem to show that it is a eager handler.
So I'm hoping that supply will not lag behind demand as I won't be buying till the fall or early next year.
Anyway, I looked at WRX in the Suby site. It seems that only the WRX wagon has foldable rear seats. The sedan has center pass-thru instead. Can anyone confirm that ?
i like the pale yellow. remidns me of hte previous gen M3 yellows. A brighter yellow would attract negative vibes like cops, racerboys, vandalisms, thieves.... Anyhow I still like a white WRX please. Yes...white WRX with white Volks TE37 rims.... yummy.
Are any Banks around doing better than Subaru's 6.9% . I dont have a credit union, but I have great credit and good cash to put down.
That pale yellow reminds me of our 66 Mustang :P
r34: Yes, only center pass-throughs in the Sedans.
Two words: 5.7 seconds. That's enough to make me want to run down and hug my local Subaru rep.
Neutral handling, AWD, rally heritage, blistering performance, affordable price. That's why I am pulling out my hairs trying to figure out how I can fit this third car into our household budget.
BTW, I ordered mine from Ann Arbor Subaru in Michigan, because they seem worth buying from. My salesman was bringing out all his pricing information and options list. It was as comprehensive as www.new-impreza.com. He says he won't charge any extra fees, so I will only pay the price we agree on, tax, title, and license. He also was telling me about other buyers, a few of whom are SCCA members. I think this hints that he is well-known. He had deposits on 15 cars, so other people must like him too. He expects mine in mid or late April.
But if Subauru really wanted to catch my attention, they should stick one of those "infinite Gear" automatics into the WRX like the Audi is putting into their new 220hp A4's... Theyre actually faster than stick shifts of that same car
It is pretty fast. When you ask for maximum acceleration, the engine speed goes to and remains at the peak power point, as opposed to manuals.
I doubt there is anybody out there that loves the sound of a car engine at a constant screaming RPM versus accelerating through the gears. What is the video game industry gonna do?!
I'm also not happy with the weight gain the Impreza is faced with. It is happening with all cars, but 3100 pounds for a compact wagon?
As for CVTs vs. manuals, I want whichever is faster overall, but is still reliable. For now, manuals are probably faster and more reliable. But if they come out with a CVT that can handle a tire-spinning launch, last the life of the car, and is comparably priced, then I'll approve of it. And what about the driver's enjoyment factor? The joy of heel-and-toeing will be replaced by the joy of winning. I'm ok with that.
I hope the extra weight went to crash protection. Otherwise, I don't like it either.
As Ottos said....the Tiptronic or other manu-automatics are too much of a compromise in different ways. Namely performance, cost, weight and lack of fun. I would not give up the thrill of rowing the gears unless it was cheaper, faster AND more reliable. Even then I *want* the ability to select my own gear always. Nothing beats the involvement of a true manual when you just want to have fun.
Yes, I know stickshifts have been around since the begining, but considering the bigger picture, why havent they become non existant yet? Plus, there are alot of "un-coordinated" people in the world, and only a small percentage of people care about Real car performance... Just turning the wheel and utilizing the gas pedal is hard enough for them, let alone coordinating the Stick and the Clutch... (My dad drives absoulutely horrible, I cant immagine how bad WITH a sticksift! ARG)
Maybe I just need to figure out how to stickshift well to apreciate it... (I got to try it the other day, and the Clutch totally confounded me... I dont mind the shifting though)
But please, dont insult me because Im not the same type of entusiast as you. Thank you.
If I had the choice between an Auto thats just as fast as a Stick, I would take it any day (A faster auto, even better) but since this is practically non-existant in the car world, im almost "required" to know how to drive a stick... I dont like not having the freedom of that choice.
The first ones are jsut automatics with a torque converter that allow you to manually choose and (sometimes) hold gears. This is literaly no different then if you switch between D,3, 2, 1 on any other automatic car.
The second are true manuls that operate the clutch electronically for you. This can be done faster an dmore ecfficienty then your own leg can do it, even matching revs on downshifts.
There are only 2 true automatic-manuls on the market (the Ferrari & The MR-S) and only the Ferrari is available in the US.
Personally, I don't know why anyone would buy a "performance car" with an automatic tranny, but it's your money.
"Maybe I just need to figure out how to stickshift well to apreciate it... (I got to try it the other day, and the Clutch totally confounded me... I dont mind the shifting though)"
Before you pass on the stickshift, you really have to give it a chance. Once you get used to it (and it *does* take practice), it becomes completely intuitive that I don't even think about shifting, I just do it. I assume that you post to this forum because you *are* a true car ethusiast who loves driving. As a person who loves driving, *I* can't imagine driving my sports car with a automatic because the stick adds so much more to the enjoyment of my car. Add to the fact that a stickshift has better few economy, accelerates faster, cheaper to buy and there is no reason that I would consider an automatic. And did I mention that it's more fun?? *THAT* will always be the reason I prefer a true manual. At this point, I would still buy a manual even if the automatic was faster. Until they make an auto that is faster AND more economical to run AND cheaper to buy, then a manual is still my preferred choice. Since you are in the WRX forum, I assume that you do care about performance and you like the WRX's blistering 0-60 5.7 seconds capability. If you get a automatic, you could lose up to a second of that time. Suddenly 0-60 6.7 seconds in a $24000 car doesn't seem like the performance car bargain of the decade anymore (although it's still great)
I learned a manual in a brand new car that I bought off the lot. After the initial one month frustration in learning and practicing, I've never looked back.
Yes it's a pain to learn. Where I came from - Malaysia, we have to learn on manuals. And the cars we learned on dates back to the 70s. =( and it is much much harder to learn on compared to today's manual cars. I've stalled 6 times in a traffic light! Beat that! I got honked at, stared, laughed....bad feeling ever! But don't give up. Like Sporin said. Once you know it, it's like riding a bike. Besides, you get to save the extra charges for an auto. hehehe.... however there are times I wish I have an auto on my Impreza. >:(
The automatic rules here in the states. I mean, how many Benz's do you see with a stick here in the US market? In Germany, you get your license at 18, and you are REQUIRED to learn a stick, if not, you better have a good reason.
Also, it really irritates me when great cars are deprived of a true manual (think Honda Accord V6, Acura CL Type S, Mercedes C320 are just a FEW examples).
I'm very excited that Subaru is one of the better car companies that is readily offering a stickshift in the WRX and pretty much their entire model line for that matter. I only wish that the Legacy Sedan and Outback Wagon could have the new H6 with a true manual, now that would be something. Does the Japanese market offer this? Does anyone know if this is coming stateside (H6+manual)?
I too prefer manuals. However, autos have their place:
* very heavy traffic
* off roading
* physically impaired
Now, now, that last one opens this up for some jokes, but let's keep it clean.
I doubt a manual tranny will be offered with the H6 for some time. In Japan, it too is only offered with the auto. I would expect to see a manual tranny there before it shows up in the US.
Hmm, should start a PSA campaign on driving manuals... Get VW to fund it, tehe. "Friends don't let friends drive automatics." "Hail to the clutch baby!" and such.
As for WRX comments. I love the fact it can tow 2000 pounds. Not that I would, but it could. Also makes me realize how silly US tow laws are when a performance turbo car with manual can tow the same as a low-stress 3800 series equipped GM car with an automatic.
I wish clutchless manuals were availible on cars we can actually get I would definatly get one! (not the Sportshift/Auto-manuals, like you said)
Of all the cars that you can buy with an automatic, the Subaru is probably not a good choice. A four speed automatic does not suit a laggy (by most reports) turbo like the one in a WRX. In moderate driving, by the time the turbo is generating boost, the automatic will probably upshift too early, and the car will feel anemic at most speeds. Driving a autmatic with a laggy turbo like the Saab Turbo 9000 I drove a few years back was torture. Between the automatic shifting at the wrong time and the on/off turbo effect, it was certainly a jerky ride
IMO Automatics only mate well with cars that have strong flat torque curves since the car is not as sensitive as to which gear the automatic selects.
BeanBoy: I'm also a fan of manuals, and all three of our vehicles have them.
However, turbos aren't well suited for towing, and automatics tend to be better than manuals, which require slipping the clutch a lot to get started. An automatic OBS would be better to haul a pair of jet skis than a 5 speed WRX.
VDC is Vehicle Dynamics Control, Subaru's stability control system, which is N/A on the WRX.
Still, a grand for the auto and VTD is a fair price, if you want an auto anyway.
That Caddy has 300hp, so don't just blow it off like that. It's a completely different car, though.
I think the WRX should aspire to beat cars like the Toyota Celica GT-S, Acura Integra Type R, Prelude SH, and other hot imports. Maybe throw in the S4 while you're at it.
2002 Toyota Celica GTS (180hp)
2002 Acura RSX 'Integra' (~200hp)
2002 Volkswagon GTI (174hp)
Despite the fact that these are coupes, I think the subcompact rating of the WRX puts it in direct competition with these established racers.
However, Subaru is marketing the WRX sedan and wagon against costlier Audi and BMW models. Do you guys think this is a good idea? From their official site:
2002 BMW 325xi (184hp)
2002 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro (170hp)
Interestingly, if 0-60 times hold true, the WRX should be faster than the 330xi and A4 2.8 (or upcoming 3.0).
So which cars compete with the WRX? I personally think the import racers, simply because of the low price point and the fact that Subaru is not known as a "near-luxury" or "luxury" brand as Audi and BMW are...
In other parts of the world, it competes with the Mitsu Lancer EVO series which is also a turboecharged AWD sedan.
Here, though, I think it will appeal to import buyers would would otherwise buy very high-end sport compact cars. High end Celicas, Integra GS-R/Type R and RSX, Civic Si, Prelude SH, Sentra SE-R, Protoge MPS, Focus SVT (it's euro flavored, if not an import).
Folks that have Eclipse GSXs and are looking to buy new, but feel let down by Mitsubishi's softer, V6 Eclipse. Plus old 323 GTX owners, 3000GT VR-4 owners, maybe?
On the other end, BMW owners? Probably not. But Audi owners, maybe. A4 1.8T and 2.8 shoppers for sure.
BMW and Mercedes wagons may seem similar, but my guess is they'll have different demographics on the buyers. So will the new Jaguar X type wagon (with AWD).
Heck, I bet the wagon will be cross-shopped with a LOT of stuff, like the PT Cruiser, Toyota Matrix, many small SUVs, etc.
Subaru just has to convince people to test drive the WRX. That's all it would take.
People buy PT Cruisers for the look, even if they don't perform. A Chrysler mechanic friend says there is no room to work under the hood (I checked at the auto show and would agree), so mods would be limited to ricing it out.
From Ford, the Focus would be closest. GM? I dunno, Pontiac Vibe GT? At least vs. the WRX wagon. DCX will have the Dodge version of the PT with AWD, so that would compete when it comes out.
I am from Malaysia too. I have been monitoring this WRX thread for a while but refrained from posting until you revealed that you are from M'sia. Yeah, I remember 10 years ago when I got my driver license from JPJ driving those damn stick-shift 70s Datsun. Nowadays, they use the Perodua Kancil for testing. Luckily, I passed the first time without "kopi" money. I still remember people having a hard time launching a stationary car from an 20 degree incline when taking the test. They either stalled it or rev it too much without letting the clutch go which results in the car rolling backwards.
All I am saying is learning a manual can be frustrating at first but once you got it, it is all intuitive.
By the way I am driving a 98 GTI VR6, manual of course. I like the WRX so much that I have already convinced my wife to like it. But the problem is getting rid of my beloved VR6. Don't get me wrong, it is a powerful and nimble car. 0 to 60 in 6.7sec. But I need AWD because I live in Michigan. Any one interested in buying? Color is Ginster Yellow, leather seats, sunroof, pwr everything, aluminum shift knob,white faced gauges and has 27k miles.
You guys have to agree that this puppy is going to take sales away from those considering the Celica/Integra, especially since the performance advantage of awd and turbo makes the WRX stand out. Maybe the awd Celica will make a return? And don't forget about the 2003 Nissan Z. I'm willing to wait a year and check out the specs, if it's well under $30K and offers rwd, V6 w/260hp, it may be worth a look (only a 2 seater though). But by that time, I think the WRX will have made a huge impact on the sports car performance world, because Subaru really has set a new standard here.
Kewl! Oh I remembered those old crappy Datsun. I think I took the test twice cus I hit a pole while doing a reverse parking. =( No "kopi money" either. The driving test in Canada is a joke. But I ain't complaining! hahahaha....
Well how long have you left Malaysia? I've been gone for quite some time. I am planning to go back for a visit. I wonder how KL's like now. No way in heck would I dare to drive there. See you around!
As for the performance on the rode. It reminded me of the '97 porsche 911 I once drove. Lots of power, with lots of control and stability, except that we had four people in good comfort (not 2good+2bad). It also rode over bumps, expansion joints, and other road irregularities very well.
As for whether or not I was able to justify the look of the car for what it had to offer, I just couldn't. The up close and personal look at the car still didn't do anything for me. It just has no look to back what it has to offer. I don't believe anyone is going to view this car as a performance car (which is what it is), it is just to plain and boring looking... not for at least 4 years. It took 3-4 years for people to notice my car as a performance car (Eclipse Turbo), after I killed mustang GTs, camaros Z28s, integras and every other performance car under $25000 (sure, some of the drivers never knew what hit them and wheren't perpared). Sure my car is only 0-60 in 6.4sec, not an amazingly fast 5.5sec, but it had some looks going for it. I've talked to people with no knowledge of cars, some knowledge of cars, knowlegde of cars and no knowlegde of WRX, and with knowledge of all cars and WRX, and they just can't phathom viewing a low-cost dull-looking car as a performance car.
I am obviously having a difficult time with the looks issue, as I am sure many others are. But at this point it's a rather not have. I'd rather wait for something better to come out: Integra (RSX), nissan z(2003), or mazda rx-8 (with four doors). If only the eclipse had continued the performance heritage rather than the good looks heritage (mitsu sucks, and where's that Lancer!I've lost all pride for you mitsu).
Either I'll wait, or I'll just settle for a used 2 year old BMW 328(with the new body) for around $28000.