Postwar Studebakers

uplanderguy

RE.: That white Lark for sale--seller seems like a bit of a blockhead. A poster or two (the last, me) noted the wheelcovers are for a Hawk, minor though and that the car is beautiful. He replied "Brochures are often the worst source of information for originality and period pictures substantiate the wheelcovers". Yeah, okay. I always told my kids, "It's OK to say you're not sure about something". Wish more people in general did that.

UPDATE: He removed his comment. My last one remains, LOL. As someone there noted, that's serious money for a car with no underside or in-trunk photos. When I bought mine for $2,600 and 86K midwestern miles in 1988, those areas were....dire.

omarman

There's an old auction from 2018 still listed on BaT which shows a '63 Lark convertible wearing wheel covers with red centers. Looks good on the car but no idea if that's OEM. Good to know if the details are correct or not.


Reserve not met on the 1963 Studebaker Lark Daytona Hardtop 4-Speed.

uplanderguy

That convert has '62 wheelcovers. I do know people who don't like the '63's white band on the covers and put something else on.

uplanderguy

The hardtop was bid to $22,750. I sold my R1 in 2010 for $15K, and it had Avanti power and a Skytop, although I'd concede it wasn't as nice-looking up-close as this car.

If I had a car on BaT and people were dissing the amounts of the bids as too high, I wouldn't like that either, but gently mentioning authenticity items on a car where authenticity is obviously important when it was restored, is just about informing a potential buyer.

uplanderguy

Here's my old car...squint and you can see the white band on the wheelcovers.
http://www.studebakerskytop.com/billpresslerpics3.jpg

omarman

Those look good on a white car. And original is better for auction.

The hardtop was bid to $22,750.
The BaT hardtop looked nice but as posted before, no trunk or underneath pics. Hmm.

ab348

I remember that 2018 auction. That convertible had some issues.

uplanderguy

Photo courtesy Alan Basile, Sr., taken last year. Nancy Egbert behind the wheel. Her father, Sherwood Egbert (1920-1969) was the inspiration behind the Avanti and was president of Studebaker from Jan. 1961 to Nov. 25, 1963, almost completely paralleling JFK's presidency tenure. I think it's cool she is interested.

uplanderguy

Speaking of JFK, I'm much-interested, and have been for years, in the assassination, of course the biggest singest historical event in my lifetime until 9/11.

Online a couple years ago, I saw a copy of JFK's White House schedule for some particular day. It said "Meet with President Egbert of Studebaker". I wonder if Egbert was trying to get government contracts of some sort.

ab348

That reminds me, I'm reading Clint Hill's book at the moment. So far so good. The thing I'm struck most with, about 1/4 of the way through, is how the Secret Service (at least back then) were expected to fend for themselves when on duty in terms of accommodation, food, etc. within the confines of a ridiculously low per diem, and how their family life was a non-consideration. I can only presume a lot of that has changed.

uplanderguy

He has a few books; are you reading "Mrs. Kennedy And Me" or "Five Presidents"? Both are excellent IMHO. He has one called "Five Days in November" that I haven't read. I figured I'd read so much about it, and I figured there'd be overlap with his other books.

I follow him on Facebook. He really had, for decades, PTSD, although it wasn't called that then. On YouTube is a 1975 interview with Mike Wallace on "60 Minutes", where Wallace had said he wouldn't focus on 11/22/63 but on Hill's retirement in general from the Secret Service, but Wallace of course brought it up and Hill essentially had a nervous breakdown on-air.

In the past decade or a little bit longer, he was prodded to write his recollections of his time with the Secret Service, which he says was cathartic. He looks to be enjoying himself now. Good for him, he deserves it.

ab348

"Mrs. Kennedy and Me" is the one I have.

uplanderguy

I always say a '61 Lark is my least-favorite Lark. This car at Mecum in Indy is drop-dead authentic/original in and out (other than the white floor mats), and I'd be happy to own it. Correct tire size and whitewall width. It's the rare "Flamingo", a one-year-only color offered only on Hawks and Lark convertibles that year. The Lark VIII Regal convertible had the highest base price of any 1961 Studebaker.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0520-413932/1961-studebaker-lark-viii-regal-convertible/?fbclid=IwAR0OzlHSODbaAx35yrzVH1mIs6Qij0GQ-SjvKP47knrAu2trVkWWPrlOhb0

ab348

I hate black interiors generally and in convertibles in particular, but that one has enough different tones to make it look good, especially with that paint color. One thing I did notice was that the seats look thinly padded compared to later Lark models I've seen. Beautiful restoration.

uplanderguy

I always called '59-61 Larks "Boo Boo Bear" Larks, as their stubby nature reminded me of that cartoon character--even the small 'lumps' over the taillights reminded me of Boo Boo's ears, LOL.

But this guy sweated the small details, which I always appreciate...even the one-year-only silver wheels.

Before the performance engines, disc brakes, and floor-shift were available. I'll be very curious to see what this car brings in May.

Sales in '61 were down from '60, probably due to more Big Three compacts in the market, but picked up a good amount in '62, and even sales for '63 were higher than '61. There were just over 1,000 '61 Lark convertibles built so they're not often seen, although a friend of mine locally has a white one. I sent him this link.

uplanderguy

Just posted by R. Quinn on Facebook this morning, I believe this is a photo from the 1963 Shareholders Meeting at South Bend at Notre Dame, which complements the silent video posted last week here from that site. I always liked '63 and '64 Champs with the narrow whitewalls, and the one below has the factory "Conestoga Camper". The striped Lark was one used in a race somewhere; I've seen photos of it before.

uplanderguy

The Hawk in '63 was still a handsome automobile IMHO, priced at the low end of that market. Still hard to believe that the styling in general began with the '53.

fintail

And as it avoided the wraparound windshield fad, it looked relevant again by the early 60s.

uplanderguy

...and it had always been long-hood/short-deck, which helped it look good too.

uplanderguy

At the big Mecum auction in Glendale, AZ today, a '64 Gran Turismo Hawk with the complete R2 "Super" package sold for $30K plus 10% fees. I am almost certain I've seen the car at Hershey, back in the '90's. It was built on the first day of '64 production and was shown at the NY Auto Show.

Someone got a deal. Probably not ideal to sell a Studebaker at the big auctions without a reserve.

Golden Hawks go for so much more, but I like the simpler GT styling so much better, and they were available with superior braking.

Astra White (used in '64; bright white and no longer the creamy white used the previous year), even with the black vinyl top, doesn't stand out much I guess. There are so many GT Hawk colors I'd prefer to white.

uplanderguy

March 17, 1966, last Studebaker built in Hamilton, Ontario. 114 years of Studebaker transportation history ended. Car has white vinyl top, black cloth 50/50 front reclining seats, A/C, disc brakes, transistorized ignition, Twin Traction, and pushbutton radio.

fintail

Kudos to those who wanted to preserve it. Nicely equipped.

uplanderguy

I can't copy the pics, but on the SDC site a guy bought on eBay a few years ago, a bunch of paperwork, even some handwritten, about the car. Someone at Hamilton decided what colors and options, and they knew it was to be preserved for the "Corporate Museum" which had been on the ground floor of the Administration Building in South Bend. But what happened, was a Stude exec in South Bend (recall that the Parts and Service Division, and several subsidiaries, stayed in business even after car production stopped), drove the car for three years and 19K miles. It has been repainted. When I first saw the car in the old SNM, it was still mounted on the snow tires it had when given to the City of South Bend in 1969.

https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/general-studebaker-specific-discussion/1825391-the-last-studebaker-another-anniversary

fintail

It survived via some luck then, too. Speaking of Studes, that reminds me, the old dealership building here has really numbered days (maybe extended via the commotion these days) - I noticed some of the brick trim is being removed.

uplanderguy

I understand progress and all, but I love seeing old buildings repurposed. I know what real estate is like out there though ($$$).

My younger daughter lives in San Luis Obispo, CA, the central-coast area. She's doing a fellowship there. Rent and gasoline are ridiculous IMHO. Without our assistance, she couldn't make it there.

fintail

Yeah, repurposing just isn't realistic in this case, the land is worth too much and there's much demand for office space and "luxury" condos for money laundering residency purchasing speculators. I don't hold it against anyone for razing the old building - it holds no real significance for most, certainly nothing noteworthy from an architectural standpoint, and it is in the "path of progress". Still a small shame to see it go.

CA is generally even worse than here, although some reason things are as they are here is via the influx of Californicators (who import their issues and them moan about it).

I know I have posted it before, on a cool tangent, the dealer where the fintail was sold new (in high rent Santa Monica) is still there, in the same building, originally built as a Packard dealer around 1930:

uplanderguy

That is a beautiful building for sure!

That name sounded familiar to me. It had also been a Studebaker dealership. I'm betting that they picked up Studebaker with the merger.

This green '64 Hawk that I just loved--I'm familiar with the guy who did the restoration work--was from there new. (My favorite color on a '64 Studebaker, but there's something about the tires that don't look right to me--either too big, and/or the whitewall is too wide and/or too far from the wheel.). It needs the half-vinyl-top too IMHO.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0514-183958/1964-studebaker-hawk-gt/

fintail

Any idea what that green Hawk sold for? Cool about the Stude link to the dealer, I didn't know that. That Hawk and my car might have been parked next to each other at some random date - I have several service entries on my car at that dealer while it still lived in CA.

uplanderguy

I seem to remember $48K. Even though it's my absolute favorite color on one, it's not the biggest-resale color.

Isn't your fintail a '63 model? All '64-model Hawks were built from Aug. to Dec. '63. It may-well have been serviced there. I think older folks tended to remain loyal to Stude at that late date; I also think some off-the-beaten-path types bought them that late.

I seem to remember a story a few years back about someone who knew a college prof somewhere who bought a new M-B and at the same time bought his wife a new Daytona Hardtop.

fintail

64. I think most MBs then were very much "professor" type cars. First owner of my car was a doctor, a doctor of what I am not sure, I once did some genealogy on the original owner, but I've forgotten some details. I think he was in his 60s when he bought the car.

sda

fintail said:

64. I think most MBs then were very much "professor" type cars. First owner of my car was a doctor, a doctor of what I am not sure, I once did some genealogy on the original owner, but I've forgotten some details. I think he was in his 60s when he bought the car.

He bought it instead of a Buick?

fintail

I suspect something like that. I don't think he liked the car - he made tons of notes in the owners manual and transmission folder (this was MBs first in-house automatic, and it is unusual) about quirks that bugged him - most seem to be just how the car is rather than defects. He sold it in 1970/71 when it had maybe 25K miles on it. The next few owners drove it a lot, and it averaged over 10K miles a year for a long time.

sda said:

He bought it instead of a Buick?

uplanderguy

Came up in my Facebook memories this morning--my friend Bob trailering my "new" '66 Cruiser to his house, then onto mine. The seller lived in rural central Indiana, and had a '63 Cruiser he was keeping. He felt the '66 was too original and low-mileage (25.7K at the time) to flog daily. I am lucky to have the car. It was bought new in April '66, a month after shutdown, from the dealer in Grand Junction, CO. The owners were born in 1904 and 1905, respectively, and traded in a '53 Studebaker. The Studebaker National Museum archivist told me it was the last car sold new by that dealer according to their retail sale cards.

Not a hardtop, or Skytop, or performance-engine car, but it is the lowest-mileage, most-original Studebaker I've owned out of the four over the years, and it was relatively reasonable to buy in comparison IMHO. A good memory.

uplanderguy

Facebook virtual tour of the current Hawk display at the Studebaker National Museum (which is closed to the public right now). Highlights for me are the Packard Hawk at about 9:00--prettiest one I've seen--and the Super Red Gran Turismo Super Hawk at about 13:00, which is on-loan to the museum. The audio is pretty unbearable, as whomever the guy asking the questions is, he's gearing it to the completely uninitiated.

https://www.facebook.com/watchparty/223934098809586/?entry_source=FEED

uplanderguy

Posted by Richard Quinn on Facebook overnight...nice color pic I'd never seen before, from 1958, of a 'Benz in an employee lot across the street from the Studebaker Administration Building in South Bend.

I'm amazed at how that little area is unchanged and looks the same today. I'd be scouring the storage lots for a dark-colored '58 Golden Hawk if I were dropped into that picture (which I'd take to Mecum and use the proceeds to buy a dark-colored '64 Gran Turismo Hawk with blower and vinyl top, and pocket the change!).

fin, that old ponton was just across the street from where this pic was taken.

I love color pics from the old days--this looks like you could step right into it.


The images are small of course, but I believe that's a finned Hawk going down that side street and a white '58 Studebaker parked facing the other direction.

Model year '58 was a very lean year for Studebaker, but the Lark was introduced in the fall and was an immediate sales hit. It very-much helped keep Studebaker in business for another several years. The Packard nameplate disappeared after the '58 model year.

ab348

Was the Administration Building just offices for executives or did all administration - finance/accounting, sales, service, advertising, parts - happen out of there?

Hard to imagine how an auto manufacturer could operate out of such a relatively small place.

uplanderguy

The building was narrow, but it was a block deep.

Engineering was in its own two-story building a couple blocks away. It was there 'til maybe a decade ago, when it was used by the vendor who had the factory NOS parts remaining inventory. It had an open (outside) area in the middle of the building, where supposedly they would have secret stuff going on, LOL.

Back in the day, parts warehousing and administration was done out at what they called Plant 8--where trucks were built, south of town a mile or so. Funny, that plant was newer than the rest of the plant. During WWII they built aircraft engines there. That building is still there. The Parts and Accessories Division operated out of that building until 1972. Administration Building was emptied and sold to the South Bend School Administration Corp. in 1969, for $1.

uplanderguy

Photo of the old Engineering Building taken sometime in the 2000's. Note old Studebaker 'wheel' emblem at the capstone.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jpenrice/1991334446/

When I first started going out there, in the eighties, I loved how most all the old buildings were still there; some used, some not. Understandably, locals were less infatuated with that.

fintail

Great pic, really does look like a modern shot. Those cars had an exotic air, but weren't insanely expensive - I suppose as the socio-economic gap has widened, so has some car pricing gaps.

I definitely see the Stude parked on the street at left.

uplanderguy

Thought this was an interesting post under that pic on Facebook:

There were plenty of Mercedes in the car pool for salaried employees. We took a ride to West Lafayette to see my brother Tony . Nice big 4 door diesel.

fintail

During the Stude years, a diesel would be a 180D/190D ponton or a 190D fintail. I bet diesel cars were a real curiosity then.

uplanderguy

In that pic you see the building with the rounded roof, to the right--that was the Union Station, which is still there. Those big overhead lights were where the passenger platform was. Amtrak lets off in an "Amshack" on the west side of town, so I've heard (scarier neighborhood than this!), but ironically, my father-in-law graduated from Notre Dame in 1962 and he would take the train from Rochester, NY and get off here.

uplanderguy

The camera angle is looking west, so it's a morning photo. With the dew on the M-B, must've stayed there overnight.

I don't think I'd park a new M-B in that lot overnight today, LOL.

fintail

Easy way to have an area become a little rough: have it lose a living wage employment base. Large swaths of the nation can relate.

I remember when I visited that site, it didn't appear scary, but it was also on a snowy Saturday morning, and it was deserted.

uplanderguy

I read that when Studebaker announced the production shutdown in Dec. '63, there were 7,000 employees there. I'm not sure if that's production employees or includes salaried. Some salaried remained after the production shutdown of course. Engine production for the Canadian '64's stayed on in SB for another six or so months.

benjaminh

Suddenly it's 1950!

uplanderguy

Although 1950 models were the best-selling Studebakers ever (number of units) before or after....I don't like them at all, LOL!

My wife likes them.

I think for a long time, if you said "Studebaker", the average person thought of a '50/51, like above, or a Golden Hawk. Those are probably the two most iconic Studebaker models and model years.

"The Muppet Movie" probably didn't hurt.

benjaminh

uplanderguy

I have a good friend with a yellow '52 Commander convertible, V8. Stude beat Chevy, Pontiac, and Packard by four model years with a V8; significant for an independent IMHO. Kaiser and Willys never got a V8.

uplanderguy

Back to M-B--I've read that the rank-and-file didn't appreciate the president of the Corporation, Sherwood Egbert, driving M-B's. But those did come under the Corporate umbrella, so why not.

He also had Avantis assigned to him, but was also known to pull a completed car from the end of the line and drive it home, to check it out.

He was well-known by the Indiana State Police, once supposedly for doing 130 mph in an Avanti on Route 2 from the plant out to the Proving Ground, where he and his family lived. He'd say "I'm testing the product".

Some years back I heard a fellow who worked in the mail room at Studebaker give a brief talk, along with other former employees, about his time at Studebaker. He owned a hair salon at the time of the talk. He said his boss came into the mail room and said "I need you to drive Mr. Egbert out to the Proving Ground".

He said Egbert never said a single word to him the entire fifteen-mile trip, LOL.

But I'm guessing at that time, '63, Egbert had a lot on the ol' mind.