I don't know who told you that airbags were designed for people who wouldn't wear seat belts. Every engineer I have spoken to is adamant about the fact that without seat belt usage an airbag can be more harm than help. I understand this might be lawyer talk to avoid any possible liability due to secondary impact, but I have not heard that airbags were for non seat belt users. In fact, all the talk I have heard is how if you are not in the right position when they deploy (such as if you are bounced around before the bigger impact), you can get severe injury from the airbag. Look, I know they aren't perfect and with a short daughter I AM concerned about the problems with short occupants and their positions relative to the airbags, but I feel certain that they are generally safe and that they add a lot to the overall safety of the vehicle. I was not a believer for years. I drove one of the insurance industry provided experimental cars in the early 70's when I was with law enforcement in the federal government. It was a Mercury Marquise and I lived in terror that the explosive device which powered the air bag would go off and shatter my ear drums in such a closed environment as one of my agents had his hearing ruined by a shootout in a closed car. I can say that they seem to have substantially answered most of my concerns and they keep improving the devices by lowering the power of the propellant, improving the locations, etc.
As to my situation, I am certain that my face would have contacted the steering wheel. Maybe because in the miata (being a convertible) the shoulder belt is kind of low, but I certainly hit the bag hard enough (or the bag hit me) to look like I had a sunburn on my face for a couple of days.
I agree. Most cars are undertired, underbraked, and need LSD for consistent control of acceleration and power-on cornering forces. As the DEW 98 platform expands to the Mustang and more, Ford or some aftermarket supplier will address this need.
oe166 is correct that maximum passenger protection is provided with both lap & shoulder belts on plus properly designed air bags.
Some other comments. A couple of years ago gen. 2 airbags were introduced that lowered the explosion force. Some now sense passenger data and can vary the explosion rate accordingly. I believe that Ford was one of the first manufacturers to sell the newer style air bags.
With that all said, the seat belts in passenger cars & trucks are a joke. If you really want to be safe you should be wearing a 6 point safety belt system such as race car drivers use. However,. since a large percentage of US drivers still refuse to wear the current lap shoulder belts systems that are designed more for ease of use than proper protection, what would be the likelihood of getting a significant # of drivers & passengers to really strap themselves in with a proper 6 point system?
Oh by the way, for best protection the classic bench seat has to go, bucket seats with some lateral support like the LS has is a help, but a lot more lateral support is in order for really protecting your body.
Even with a 6 point belt system, there would still be a significant danger for skull base and spinal fractures due to your head flopping around at impact. Again, proper airbags will significantly lower this injury risk. If you want better than that, then strap on a helmet and a neck and head restraint system.
PS. If anyone posts that you are better off with no belts or bags because you're safer being thrown clear of the wreck, I'm requesting that host Pat ban them from Edmunds for life. In my younger years I drove a tow truck and can tell you that a body that was thrown trough a windshield or door is not a pretty sight. The only way you'd be safer out of the car is if you opened the door and jumped out before impact and hoped that you weren't hit by anything when the collision occurred. But of course if we had that much time to predict and prepare for the collision chances are we could have avoided it in the first place.
The air bags inflate and deflate rapidly upon activation. After air bag deployment, it is normal to notice a smoke-like, powdery residue or smell the burnt propellant. This may consist of cornstarch, talcum powder (to lubricate the bag) or sodium compounds (e.g., baking soda) that result from the combustion process that inflates the air bag. Small amounts of sodium hydroxide may be present which may irritate the skin and eyes, but none of the residue is toxic.
While the system is designed to help reduce serious injuries, contact with a deploying air bag may also cause abrasions, swelling or temporary hearing loss. Because air bags must inflate rapidly and with considerable force, there is the risk of death or serious injuries such as fractures, facial and eye injuries or internal injuries, particularly to occupants who are not properly restrained or are otherwise out of position at the time of air bag deployment. Thus, it is extremely important that occupants be properly restrained as far away from the air bag module as possible while maintaining vehicle control.
From everything, I have read on Air Bags, they are not the panacea of safety you all have been led to believe. With a product warning like this, were you aware that you are taking your life in your hands? What other product advises you if not used properly will result in serious injury, possibly death especially with women and children. (Do a search on the net for air bag fatalities)
My experience with Air Bags was back when I was still a cop. I was sitting in my Crown Victoria writing an accident report when I was rear-ended. There I sat blinded with a fully loaded 9mm on my belt and had the wind knocked out me. Luckily the individuals involved were not crooks.
It might interest you to know, after several similar air bag incidents we disabled them in all our patrol cars.
This is the reason they should be optional so the consumer can make the decision regarding the merits and cost of the equipment. I am sick and tired of the insurance industry and the DOT mandating the construction of our automobiles.
Thank God, the Senate voted against the recent CAFE proposals or we would be shopping for LS with a 4-cylinder engine and the car constructed entirely out of styrene plastic.
Akirby is spot on about brakes and real safety equipment. Imagine the brakes you could get for $5,000 with the air bags deleted. In addition, you would get gobs of storage space in the dash.
Joe - I'll take your word that the airbag prevented you from hitting the steering wheel. And I'm not against them - I just think that in some cases they're unnecessarily dangerous. Leave them in but design them so they work with the seatbelts, not instead of them.
It's a widely known and acknowledged fact that airbags were developed in the 70's because people weren't using seatbelts. That's why the early bags deployed so explosively - they had to catch an unbelted passenger hurtling towards the dash. Think about the early test videos - the dummies are not belted. I'll see if I can find an article but I guarantee you that's what happened. Now that seat belt use is virtually mandatory and after the publicity about kids and small adults being hurt or killed (in most cases because they weren't properly restrained) the government is finally lowering the deployment velocity requirements. Why? Because if you're properly belted you don't need the airbag to deploy so quickly. Not to mention varying the deployment velocity according to the weight of the occupant. I think we can have airbags that protect you in conjunction with seatbelts but don't pose such a hazard for kids and small adults. I'm terrified when my children are forced to ride in the front seat - even though they're buckled up and as far away as possible.
And again - I'm all for optional safety equipment as long as those who choose not to use it agree to pay for any resulting injuries themselves. But if doing so causes my insurance rates to go up (and it does) then that's not right.
I replaced the Firestone Firehawks on my LS V8 with X-ones at about 15,000 miles. The Firehawks were like new but I found them to be too noisy on concrete surfaces. This tire swap has added substantially to my enjoyment of the car.
The X-ones are extremely quiet, vibration free, and much more comfortable. I now have about 25,000 on the X-ones and they are the best tires I have every had. From a handling perspective, they will probably break away on dry pavement a little sooner than the Firehawks but the breakaway is progressive and easy to control. Unless you participate in autocross or corner very aggressively, I think you will like the handling characteristics.
I am not sure what speed rating your Continentals have (H? V?) but you will likely being going to a lower rating with the X-ones. Many people would try to discourage you from doing that. Also, you might want to read the information on the Tire Rack website. You have lots of choices with the 16 inch rims, but the X-ones have been excellent for me.
Interesting article. I was not involved in the beginnings so I was unfamiliar with the original criteria, but I know that recently the industry has been very opposed to unbelted testing as it seems to confirm that this is one of the purposes of airbags and they don't want to go there. At the risk of sounding callous, Darwin's theory still works--many people who don't wear seat belts seem to die out younger than those who do. Not all, but a bunch. Personally, I think people should be allowed to do whatever the heck they want, but people I care about, or people whose injuries I might be expected to pay for, I want belted and air bagged.
the TSB CLEARLY states, that BOTH (the TSB capitalizes the "BOTH") regulators should be replaced in the event one fails. Just emailed my service advisor at Safford to remind him of this, as he told me otherwise on Saturday..
On a similar note, havent had a chance to take off my door panel to confirm the crash on my car, but did anyone else who had a rear window regulator fail, suffer the same symptoms as me? While putting the rear window up, hearing a very loud "cracK", yet the window didnt actually fall down?
Was one of the original drivers of airbag development the fact that people didn't use seatbelts...Yes.
Can airbags do more harm than good in certain situations...Yes.
Are there situations when certain professionals may require airbag deactivation...Yes.
Are airbags a panacea for all causes of injury...No.
To me, all of these facts are irrelevant.
Today, the preponderance of evidence is that airbags save lives and greatly reduce injuries. Whether belted or not, they can and do help especially in major impacts. Nothing engineered by man is perfect. Improvements to the technology can and should be made. There continue to be many important reasons why people should always wear seatbelts (including better control during emergency maneuvers). But to forsake the benefits of airbags to protect against the unlikely injury they could cause is like cutting your nose off to spite your face (which is what you ultimately might be doing).
For good or for bad, most inventions like the airbag must often be mandated due to economies-of-scale and because of our society's sue-happy obscesion.
The TSB number is 01-01-02. Tell them to read you specifically what it says in the Action Field. "If diagnostics lead to an inoperative rear window regulator,install the revised rear window regulators in BOTH rear doors per the procedures......".
BOTH is capitalized in the TSB. If they say there's a new TSB have them give you the number, because I don't show it.
This was the second time I was in & I told them what it said. When I picked it up he said they couldn't. Hard to believe they wouldn't do it unless they didnt have part & didnt want to admit it. I just called for the guy, I'm going to tell him to re-read it.
Presently I have an 01 V8 that I leased for 24 months to "hold me over" until the much hoped for V-8 Manual would arrive. Most thought this would be a "03" Model. I have read in a few places that the V8 would get bumped to 275 HP and the V6 to 240 but so far nothing in the press about the Manual. This site was always the best source of my information while researching the LS and the various posts still are informative. I've been too busy driving the car to check the site often and found the 01 V8 nice but not quite enough! So I'm hoping that Jim Rogers and his folks have the Manual in mind. Has this been discussed while I have been out driving the potholes of the mid west!!?
If anyone subscribes to Automotive News, could you let me know what the subject of this week's edition on page 8 is about, please? If it's what I think it is, a scanned in copy that is emailed would be most appreciated.
I've been following this board for months, and you guys have been a large factor in my decision to purchase a LS. I first drove one this summer, when Hertz was running a special on their Premium cars. I liked it a lot more than I expected. Drove it from DC to Maryland's eastern shore, then across Deleware, ferried to NJ, up to Atlantic City, and back to DC via Philly. Got to see the car under a variety of conditions, and was impressed.
I'm going to try to locate a 2000 or 2001 LS V8. They appear to be a bargain compared to a new 2002, and the depreciation from new won't get better with the 2003 out soon.
So, given the experience that exists here, I was hoping to hear what I should look for in a pre-owned LS. Any one I buy will be under warranty, so I know from your posts to get the transmission updated and the windows seem to be a widespread issue as well, but any warranty items I'll take care of post-purchase. Anything anyone wants to share about pre-purchase concerns will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
You've not spent the time several of us have on this board, or you'd know that the manual in the LS is considered by the corporation to be a huge mistake.
If I'm wrong, the 2003 Manual LS will have 250+ hp and/or the V8 will come with a manual. Similarly, pigs will fly (quickly, with excellent cornering), and all the new colors will be non-metallic and carefully finished.
Hi All I've been gone awhile... I'm sure your missed me... This rear window thing is the most outragous thing I have ever heard. 3 years later and still a problem.... whats with that... TSB or No TSB even Jim Rogers couldn't get my dealer to replace both rear window regulators. ohhh I got lots of calls and promises... but that was the end of that.... I've had the rear passenger window replaced three times now. I dont use them anymore. Locked them out.... and that bull about using them makes them less likely to fail is simply .....well never mind.... for those interested my current list of fixes.... and not fixes
Ball Joints Moon roof... wont open.. wont close... Rear window crash ..... 3 times now still dont have the fixed regulator!! rear driver door squeak front dash squeak rear headliner squeak trans reflash Fog Light fell off Thumping sound under the engine when going over bumps. AC failure Heated seat failure..... 3 times seat cover replaced.... twice.... they tore it when replacing the heating element wierd "farting" sound from the AC duct above the radio smoke when starting hard starting (appears to be flooding when starting) did I mention the $129.00 15K service charge!!!
I'm sure I forgot something but with this list it get's overwhelming...
Kevin 2000 V8 Red. loaded... 22 k miles...yeah low mileage but it spent so much time at the dealer..... soon to go out of warranty....now what do I do???
Charlie, if you've been keeping up here you've read all the bad news there is about this car. Not much, is there? Use the same common sense guidelines you would shopping for any used car, and you'll do fine. Lemons exist (see above post)(sorry, Kevin), but they've been few & far between. There are ways to check the history of any car, it was discussed here recently but I don't remember what the service was called. And any Lincoln dealer can look up the service history of a car by it's VIN.
And of course the most valuable accessory for the Lincoln LS owner is as close as your computer.
ronniepooh: Mine were the same symptoms, but more of a POP. The glass was open about an inch at the time, and dropped about another inch.
Actually, given that it was an all new platform, in a new production facility, with mostly new supplier sources, the problems appear remarkably isolated to a few areas. Yes, there have been great exceptions (duely noted to Kevin, Airwolf, & others), but another benefit of a pre-owned purchase is that if it's bought "right", it doesn't cost a lot to unload it when the problems become too much to handle. I would hope to keep it for less than 18 months or 30K miles, whichever is first. A few lumps along the way for a great American sedan that can go 0-60 under eight, hold five and some luggage, and eat up mile after mile of pavement in total comfort should be worth the effort.
What I guess I'm looking for is the kind of stuff you guys probably discussed nearer the beginning of the discusson. Are there preferred options? Significant changes during MY00 or between 00 & 01? Options to avoid? The number of the gatekeeper at Mania 3 that could sell me the Vivid Red used prototype? And, I know some of you are in Atlanta, any dealers that are preferred or should be avoided?
That is what my window sounded like. I thought that the window had shattered! It cycled about 5 more times then got stuck in the up position. My dealer replaced BOTH regulators, per the TSB, without question. It may have helped that I printed out a copy of the TSB and handed it to them .
One more and I'll shut up. I'll take side airbags and a driver's airbag (depowered and tested with a properly belted driver). Give me a depowered smart passenger airbag but with the option to turn it off like in the F150.
Lincoln is only selling about 0.5 % manuals (That's about 200 per year at the current sales pace). That's not enough to sustain a manual. I don't have any inside knowledge here - this is just my own opinion based on sales figures. I would be very surprised if the manual continued on the V6, much less on the V8.
That said, you may want to check out the New York Auto Show later this month. I think you'll find something interesting there. :-)
I took the same approach, wanting the car, but not wanting to commit $40K. I tried to rent one last summer, but Hertz let me down, and I ended up in an SUV. Big mistake, but I digress.
I bought LS8 Sport a month ago and love it. Only question now is whether I spend the $40K now on an 02, or wait a few months for an 03.
Anyway, I believe there may be a few advantages (IMHO) to an early-build 00 Sport. Many on this board are more knowledgeable, and I'm sure will correct me when I'm wrong.
The early build cars had the Alpine audio system, with amp and subwoofers. It may not have been available later in 00.
They also shipped with a full-size spare, which I prefer.
Cars built before mine shipped with 3.58 rear gearing. That should get you going a little quicker, but you'll run at higher RPMs and use a little more gas.
Some folks believe the early production cars had better fit. I know mine is about perfect to my untrained eye.
I've read about little things like the turn signal/multifunction switch being stouter in the early build cars.
One thing I don't understand, and this may be a build date issue also (mine is 0799), is the auto-dimming mirror. Mine doesn't seem to have this feature, nor does the mirror control look like the one in the manual. It also doesn't have a manual dimming switch/lever.
Its hard for me to opine on other options, as I seem to have most. I don't have active track, and wish I did. Seems like an excellent feature, especially in that you can turn it off. There are no options I'd avoid, but you may want to cofirm that a moonroof is factory installed. I've heard the aftermarket versions can be a problem.
There are only two reasons to put a stick in a car; economy or performance. The LS aint no economy car! According to Lincoln the V8 LS is supposedly a performance sedan. All performance junkies would rather have a V8 than a V6 in a car the weight of an LS.
If Lincoln would have packaged the stick with the V8, sport package and LSD (a cheap way to one up the competition) they would have sold 2000-3500 per year not two hundred. I bet 90% of these sales would have been conquest customers that bought a BMW with a stick and therfore would have added to the overall sales, not cannibalized automatic LS sales. This would have built a larger loyal customer base and a reputation to build upon for the export market.
If Lincoln management does not offer a true performance version of the LS then Lincoln deserves to fail. It is disappointing that Ford always seems so short sighted. They test the waters with a toe and if the temp is not perfect they run away. What a bunch of whimps.
Good info. I would have thought I would have been avoiding the early builds, but if that's the only way to get a full size spare, that's really something to consider. I take very frequent 500 mile road trips, and having to deal with a bicycle tire in the middle of "nowhere" is no fun.
And if I may opine on whether Lincoln should put a 6 speed on the 2003 V8, I think they should. I'm not going to buy it, and 98+ % of buyers won't either, but there's still a business case for doing so. If you look at the last Car & Driver (and most other road tests), the car tested was the 6 cylinder because it had a manual. Because all these mags seem hung up on "price" as the basis for comparison, the roomier, heavier LS was tested against smaller, quicker vehicles. A 6 speed V8 model would have to be tested against 540i's, and it would do so favorably as a SCREAMING bargain.
Given that this is supposed to be Lincoln's image changing youth car, Lincoln needs the press that this would give. The current LS is a good start, but the job is not done. Besides, I think 1/2 of the people who bought the 5 speed hang out here. What would you guys do next if there's no manual to choose from? Lincoln knows how important you are to the success of the car. You should be rewarded with a 6 speed v8 for your efforts.
These boards are really educational. The following just popped up on the LLSOC board. It refers to an extra brace running from the lower control arm to the body.
Mike,
This may be part of what you're referring to: Quote:The Lincoln LS was introduced in the 2000 model year. Special safety features All 2000 and later LS models manufactured after February 2000 include structural changes to improve occupant protection in frontal crashes. (Note: information about when a specific vehicle was manufactured is on the certification label typically affixed to the car on or near the driver door.) -http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/00017.htm
For what it's worth, the LS performed better than a BMW 3-Series, and just as well as the BMW 5-Series in the IIHS tests. Not too shabby.
Unless your mirror has been changed, all V8's and V6's with the convinence package came with the auto-dimming mirror, as well as moisture sensing wipers. The mirror has a small "button" in the middle, on the bottom, where the lever usually is on a manual mirror.
Thanks Mike. It doesn't seem to dim, but I'll run another test. It could be that no one's gotten close enough behind me-----.
The wipers are fine, and I do have the small button, and what look like indentations for indicator lights above and to either side. Guess the picture in the manual just looks a little different.
Couldn't have said it better myself. LM blew their Manual wad on the V-6 with Getrag for the European market. This became a dead end with Jac buying his own Euro brand (Volvo). To re-enginneer the LS Manual to meet domestic competition would require too much capital in a now Firestone depleted Ford. Yes, they had honorable intentions. The Manual was the only 4 door, RWD, shiftable competition to BMW for almost 15 years. I barely made it through the Great Darkness Of FWD myself, and I almost had to give in to the the Great Tsami Of Slush Boxes as well. But then the Great Renaissance of RWD Manuals came and the LS Manual became too uncompetitive. Add the new Pearl Harbor attack from the Land of the Rising Sun which does 0-60 in very close to 6 seconds with a slush box and we'll soon have The Great Kraut Rout. Later this year, the same attackers will launch the Final Solution - a six-speed Manual version at under 6 seconds starting at about 28k and that's why the next M3 is going up in HP. Needless to say, the richer boy racers are going to adopt this car and walk away from their IS300's in mass. I don't expect actual abandoned ISes, but the Lexi people are going to have to make decisions like LM did on the LS Manual. Maybe LM saw the writing on the wall early. The only other player may be the O4 CTS with the new hot V-6 (goodbye OPEL). I'm just sitting here watching this incredible horsepower race and thinking of 1970 and how the insurance companies may start bringing back hp/weight rates and ending all the fun. Then the car companies will start underrating hp figures like Chevy did with the 290 hp Z28 (which put out MUCH more). Does history repeat itself?
OK boys, Lincoln has been listening. March 18 Automotive News reports: McClaren Performance Technologies (yes, THAT McClaren!)will market a high-performance Lincoln LS which will be on display at the New York Auto Show next week. It will be a 2003 model available this fall through 100 selected Lincoln dealers. Price $49,750 with automatic transmission. A SIX-SPEED manual transmission is a $5,000 option!!!. They hope to sell between 300 and 500 units annually. It is powered by a SUPERCHARGED 3.9 V-8 rated at 350 HP. It has four-piston brake calipers, a reworked suspension and several cosmetic upgrades.
Lincoln dealers also will be able to buy from McLaren a $5,000 performance kit they can fit to cars in inventory. The kit includes special wheels and tires and adds about 40 HP from a redesigned intake and exhaust system.
Brakes: "Imagine the brakes you could get for $5,000" 1) How would you change the brakes? 2)What would be the brake performance gain?
Manual: A third reason: The pleasure of the skillful athleticism (hand, eye, foot, ear coordination)required to consistently execute properly-timed shifts that are imperceptible to the passenger.
goodyrl - Your dealer is full of ****. The TSB's that LLSOC gets are dealer copies. There is no such thing as a consumer TSB, a TSB is a TSB and it is very clear that BOTH regulators are to be replaced according to the TSB. I went through this same arguement with my dealer when mine broke (the second time) that BOTH are supposed to be replaced. When they called me and told me that they did not replace both because Lincoln does not allow them to fix no-broken parts, I then asked them for a letter in writing stating that they had read the TSB and that if the vehicle went outside of warranty and the other regulator broke that they would replace it at no charge to me. Funny thing happened when I picked up the car at the dealership. They actually read the thing (and printed it out to show me) and apologized profusely for not believing me and not reading it the first time after I told them to. Unfortunately for me, they didn't have the other one in stock so I had to make a second trip, but at least it was changed (although not with the metal one).
When will these dealers get the idea of customer service through their thick skulls.
If you're a LLSOC club member (and if not, this should prove the clubs worth), go to the web site and look at the TSBs. Print out the one for the windows (LS1bmw0 posted the number earlier) and show it to your dealer. If the "service" writer still won't have both replaced, elevate it to the service manager. If that doesn't work, I'd go right to the GM and to the hot line, if necessary! This should NOT be happening!
Sad to see some dealers not following the clear instructions that Lincoln is providing in the TSB. The service writer at the dealership I went to on Sat told me the same thing...that Lincoln only reimburses the dealers for broken parts. I told him that I was almost sure the TSB said to replace both. He said "nope". I emailed him on Sunday night, and attached a copy of the TSB. Called him today to verify that he received the email, he said "yep", and that he had ordered BOTH regulators for me. (He initially only ordered one, the one that I heard the loud POP or CRACK from).
goodyr1, your dealer is feeing you a massive line. I would ask to speak to the regional representative for Lincolns service ASAP. Keep us posted on what happens. If you are a member of LLSOC, there might be resources there to assist you in this problem with your dealer.
Let me know if this continues... Send me your e-mail address And I will put you in contact with someone who can resolve the issue.
Regards,
Victor LLSOC Central Texas Director P.S. I went through the same thing... It is not necessarily the dealers fault. The New TSB coming out soon should hopefully minimize this further.
So what you are saying is that Lincoln will release a 350 HP 6 Speed Manual..... but we have to ante up 50K? I guess this is a case of being careful what you wish for! My lease is up on my V6 Auto in August and I was hoping to LOWER my monthly payment! Oh well ... I always said if they offered it I would buy it! Any guesses on a Red carpet lease for that model?
I talked to 3 other dealers in the area & they said they would have done both under warranty. I called the dealership where my car went & he still said he is right cant fix both under warranty.
I told him I wanted to speak to the Regional Representative for Service about it. I told him i am upset that 3 dealers can read it that both are to be fixed under warranty.
He said he would look into it and call me back in a half hour.
airwolf1000 i told 2 dealers i had a bad right one & wanted both taken care of per TSB. They both said they look at TSB & call me back. One of them i told whole story & he told me to tell them to re-read it and call him if they wouldnt because he would do it.
I honestly am sick over this deal because I have loved this car but get tire of taking it in for service issues even though they always give me a loaner and fix under warranty.
I feel your pain. My car has been in the shop for about 2 or 3 months of its life. It is unfortunate..The only consolation I can give you is the issue will eventually get fixed... In the case of the LS if you have a 2000 and have had issues Patience is a Virtue...
I doubt your LS has left you stranded. Mine never has. Like you said it is a hassle.. And you shouldn't have a hassle for such an expensive vehicle. However, other cars also have their issues...
At least the Performance of the LS partially makes up for the the early growing pains.
Regards, Victor P.S. Make sure they are getting you the steel Replacements.
AUTOMOTIVE NEWS-MAR. 18. HOT ROD LINCOLN HEADS FOR N.Y. McClaren will introduce high-performance LS this fall. A hot rod Lincoln is coming. McLaren Performance Technologies-known for its high-performance Mustangs of the 1980s and for engineering vehicles such as the Buick GNX and GMC Syclore and Typhoon-has created a high-performance Lincoln LS. The car will be on display next week at the New York auto show.
McLaren plans to market a version of the car as a 2003 model this fall through about 100 Lincoln dealers. Price: $49,750 for the LS with an automatic transmission, almost $16, 000 more than a base 2002 LS with a V-6. A six-speed manual transmission is a $5,000 option. McLaren hopes to sell between 300 and 500 units annually. It will provide the powertrain warranty.
The McLaren version is powered by a supercharged 3.9 liter V-8 engine rated at 350 hp. It has four-piston brake calipers, a reworked suspension and several cosmetic upgrades.
"Our intention is absolutely not to put Mustang brute and brawn into a Lincoln" said McLaren CEO Steven Rossi. "It's to put BMW engineering elegance into a Lincoln."
The car will compete, he said, with the BMW M5 and Merceded-Benz AMG E55-two super high-performance German sports sedans that sell for about $70,000.
PERFORMANCE KIT AVAILABLE: Lincoln dealers also will be able to buy from McLaren a $5,000 performance kit they can fit to cars in inventory. The kit includes special wheels and tires and adds about 40 hp from a redesigned intake and exhaust system.
Rossi said the LS is the first Lincoln to get the performance makeover. He said McLaren's business plan is to become the high-performance arm of Lincoln. McLaren aims to be to Lincoln what AMG is to Mercedes Benz. AMG builds by hand small numbers of high-performance, premium-priced Mercedes vehicles. Next up, Rossie said, are a McLaren tweaked Lincoln Navigator and then Aviator.
Because of potential friction with McLaren's British race car operation, which is 40 percent owned by DaimlerChrysler, the high-performance Lincoln LS will not be branded as a McLaren. The engine will have "Powered by McLaren" on the twin intercoolers, and the orange and blue McLaren logo will be on the car's sides and embroidered on the seats.
ENCOURAGEMENT FROM LINCOLN: Rossi said Lincoln is not involved with the car's engineering or marketing, but it has provided technical information and has encouraged the project. Lincoln is not funding any of the development or EPA certification of the car.
Lincoln spokesman Jim Trainor said Lincoln has been considering deveoping high-performance vehicles, and the McLaren connection will be positive for the brand.
"Certainly the name is terrific, and the heritage is good to have," he said.
The high-performance LS won't be built by McLaren. Rossi said it will be modified by a Lincoln-approved "upfitter"-a company that can order vehicles from the factory, modify them and ship them back to the factory for distribution to dealers.
. . ."The Great Kraut Rout." Stan's the man. Spiro Agnew's speechwriter couldn't have done better.
McClaren sounds like they appreciate the value of the platform. Wonder who'll sell/service these vehicles? Certainly won't be the geriatric "gentlemen" who, for the most part, proved totally clueless when I was shopping for my car a couple of years or so ago.
The Lincolns dealers will be hand-picked similarly to those Ford dealers who are authorized to sell SVT models. Only those dealers who score high in the CSI index will be authorized. If you're an LLSOCer check the Member Lounge for the full, basically unedited press release.
if dealers actually understood the internet and the concept of customer service, these boards would not exist...at time, with some dealers, there really does seem to be a mental disconnect between the customer who has a legitimate complaint, and the concept of trying to fix it... while I realize that some intermittent complaints may not show up on the dealers test drive, common sense dictates that the majority of people do not have the time to make this stuff up, and that maybe they ought to listen a little harder...then again, the person who fixes the car may not be as well read as some, and the concept of finding out what's wrong to serve the customer's needs may not be part of automotive technician training...then again, Kmart is in bankruptcy because they did such a lousy job of customer service, and WalMart just took care of customer the way Kmart did 20 years ago...
Comments
As to my situation, I am certain that my face would have contacted the steering wheel. Maybe because in the miata (being a convertible) the shoulder belt is kind of low, but I certainly hit the bag hard enough (or the bag hit me) to look like I had a sunburn on my face for a couple of days.
Some other comments.
A couple of years ago gen. 2 airbags were introduced that lowered the explosion force. Some now sense passenger data and can vary the explosion rate accordingly. I believe that Ford was one of the first manufacturers to sell the newer style air bags.
With that all said, the seat belts in passenger cars & trucks are a joke. If you really want to be safe you should be wearing a 6 point safety belt system such as race car drivers use. However,. since a large percentage of US drivers still refuse to wear the current lap shoulder belts systems that are designed more for ease of use than proper protection, what would be the likelihood of getting a significant # of drivers & passengers to really strap themselves in with a proper 6 point system?
Oh by the way, for best protection the classic bench seat has to go, bucket seats with some lateral support like the LS has is a help, but a lot more lateral support is in order for really protecting your body.
Even with a 6 point belt system, there would still be a significant danger for skull base and spinal fractures due to your head flopping around at impact. Again, proper airbags will significantly lower this injury risk. If you want better than that, then strap on a helmet and a neck and head restraint system.
PS. If anyone posts that you are better off with no belts or bags because you're safer being thrown clear of the wreck, I'm requesting that host Pat ban them from Edmunds for life. In my younger years I drove a tow truck and can tell you that a body that was thrown trough a windshield or door is not a pretty sight. The only way you'd be safer out of the car is if you opened the door and jumped out before impact and hoped that you weren't hit by anything when the collision occurred. But of course if we had that much time to predict and prepare for the collision chances are we could have avoided it in the first place.
The air bags inflate and deflate rapidly upon activation. After air bag
deployment, it is normal to notice a smoke-like, powdery residue or
smell the burnt propellant. This may consist of cornstarch, talcum
powder (to lubricate the bag) or sodium compounds (e.g., baking
soda) that result from the combustion process that inflates the
air bag. Small amounts of sodium hydroxide may be present which
may irritate the skin and eyes, but none of the residue is toxic.
While the system is designed to help reduce serious injuries, contact with a deploying air bag may also cause abrasions, swelling or temporary hearing loss. Because air bags must inflate rapidly and with considerable force, there is the risk of death or serious injuries such as fractures, facial and eye injuries or internal injuries, particularly to occupants who are not properly restrained or are otherwise out of position at the time of air bag deployment. Thus, it is extremely important that occupants be properly restrained as far away from the air bag module as possible while maintaining vehicle control.
From everything, I have read on Air Bags, they are not the panacea of safety you all have been led to believe. With a product warning like this, were you aware that you are taking your life in your hands? What other product advises you if not used properly will result in serious injury, possibly death especially with women and children. (Do a search on the net for air bag fatalities)
My experience with Air Bags was back when I was still a cop. I was sitting in my Crown Victoria writing an accident report when I was rear-ended. There I sat blinded with a fully loaded 9mm on my belt and had the wind knocked out me. Luckily the individuals involved were not crooks.
It might interest you to know, after several similar air bag incidents we disabled them in all our patrol cars.
This is the reason they should be optional so the consumer can make the decision regarding the merits and cost of the equipment. I am sick and tired of the insurance industry and the DOT mandating the construction of our automobiles.
Thank God, the Senate voted against the recent CAFE proposals or we would be shopping for LS with a 4-cylinder engine and the car constructed entirely out of styrene plastic.
Akirby is spot on about brakes and real safety equipment. Imagine the brakes you could get for $5,000 with the air bags deleted. In addition, you would get gobs of storage space in the dash.
I asked him to make sure i got the right replacement part this time as it will be 3rd one.
He said he couldnt do left unless it goes bad, oh well, I thought they could do both am I wrong ?
It's a widely known and acknowledged fact that airbags were developed in the 70's because people weren't using seatbelts. That's why the early bags deployed so explosively - they had to catch an unbelted passenger hurtling towards the dash. Think about the early test videos - the dummies are not belted. I'll see if I can find an article but I guarantee you that's what happened. Now that seat belt use is virtually mandatory and after the publicity about kids and small adults being hurt or killed (in most cases because they weren't properly restrained) the government is finally lowering the deployment velocity requirements. Why? Because if you're properly belted you don't need the airbag to deploy so quickly. Not to mention varying the deployment velocity according to the weight of the occupant. I think we can have airbags that protect you in conjunction with seatbelts but don't pose such a hazard for kids and small adults. I'm terrified when my children are forced to ride in the front seat - even though they're buckled up and as far away as possible.
And again - I'm all for optional safety equipment as long as those who choose not to use it agree to pay for any resulting injuries themselves. But if doing so causes my insurance rates to go up (and it does) then that's not right.
The X-ones are extremely quiet, vibration free, and much more comfortable. I now have about 25,000 on the X-ones and they are the best tires I have every had. From a handling perspective, they will probably break away on dry pavement a little sooner than the Firehawks but the breakaway is progressive and easy to control. Unless you participate in autocross or corner very aggressively, I think you will like the handling characteristics.
I am not sure what speed rating your Continentals have (H? V?) but you will likely being going to a lower rating with the X-ones. Many people would try to discourage you from doing that. Also, you might want to read the information on the Tire Rack website. You have lots of choices with the 16 inch rims, but the X-ones have been excellent for me.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/OccCProt.html
On a similar note, havent had a chance to take off my door panel to confirm the crash on my car, but did anyone else who had a rear window regulator fail, suffer the same symptoms as me? While putting the rear window up, hearing a very loud "cracK", yet the window didnt actually fall down?
Can airbags do more harm than good in certain situations...Yes.
Are there situations when certain professionals may require airbag deactivation...Yes.
Are airbags a panacea for all causes of injury...No.
To me, all of these facts are irrelevant.
Today, the preponderance of evidence is that airbags save lives and greatly reduce injuries. Whether belted or not, they can and do help especially in major impacts. Nothing engineered by man is perfect. Improvements to the technology can and should be made. There continue to be many important reasons why people should always wear seatbelts (including better control during emergency maneuvers). But to forsake the benefits of airbags to protect against the unlikely injury they could cause is like cutting your nose off to spite your face (which is what you ultimately might be doing).
For good or for bad, most inventions like the airbag must often be mandated due to economies-of-scale and because of our society's sue-happy obscesion.
Joe
What was TSB Number, thanks.
They did the right one and used part number(s)
1W4Z-5427008-AB REG ASY 729049
BOTH is capitalized in the TSB. If they say there's a new TSB have them give you the number, because I don't show it.
Brian
Thanks,
Brian
I've been following this board for months, and you guys have been a large factor in my decision to purchase a LS. I first drove one this summer, when Hertz was running a special on their Premium cars. I liked it a lot more than I expected. Drove it from DC to Maryland's eastern shore, then across Deleware, ferried to NJ, up to Atlantic City, and back to DC via Philly. Got to see the car under a variety of conditions, and was impressed.
I'm going to try to locate a 2000 or 2001 LS V8. They appear to be a bargain compared to a new 2002, and the depreciation from new won't get better with the 2003 out soon.
So, given the experience that exists here, I was hoping to hear what I should look for in a pre-owned LS. Any one I buy will be under warranty, so I know from your posts to get the transmission updated and the windows seem to be a widespread issue as well, but any warranty items I'll take care of post-purchase. Anything anyone wants to share about pre-purchase concerns will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Charlie
If I'm wrong, the 2003 Manual LS will have 250+ hp and/or the V8 will come with a manual. Similarly, pigs will fly (quickly, with excellent cornering), and all the new colors will be non-metallic and carefully finished.
Hang in there. It's a pretty good car.
I've been gone awhile... I'm sure your missed me...
This rear window thing is the most outragous thing I have ever heard. 3 years later and still a problem.... whats with that...
TSB or No TSB even Jim Rogers couldn't get my dealer to replace both rear window regulators. ohhh I got lots of calls and promises... but that was the end of that....
I've had the rear passenger window replaced three times now. I dont use them anymore. Locked them out.... and that bull about using them makes them less likely to fail is simply .....well never mind....
for those interested my current list of fixes.... and not fixes
Ball Joints
Moon roof... wont open.. wont close...
Rear window crash ..... 3 times now still dont have the fixed regulator!!
rear driver door squeak
front dash squeak
rear headliner squeak
trans reflash
Fog Light fell off
Thumping sound under the engine when going over bumps.
AC failure
Heated seat failure..... 3 times
seat cover replaced.... twice.... they tore it when replacing the heating element
wierd "farting" sound from the AC duct above the radio
smoke when starting
hard starting (appears to be flooding when starting)
did I mention the $129.00 15K service charge!!!
I'm sure I forgot something but with this list it get's overwhelming...
Kevin
2000 V8 Red. loaded... 22 k miles...yeah low mileage but it spent so much time at the dealer..... soon to go out of warranty....now what do I do???
And of course the most valuable accessory for the Lincoln LS owner is as close as your computer.
ronniepooh: Mine were the same symptoms, but more of a POP. The glass was open about an inch at the time, and dropped about another inch.
Scott
LLSOC Member
What I guess I'm looking for is the kind of stuff you guys probably discussed nearer the beginning of the discusson. Are there preferred options? Significant changes during MY00 or between 00 & 01? Options to avoid? The number of the gatekeeper at Mania 3 that could sell me the Vivid Red used prototype? And, I know some of you are in Atlanta, any dealers that are preferred or should be avoided?
Looking forward to the LS grin,
Charlie
Sorry if I got carried away.
% manuals (That's about 200 per year at the current sales pace). That's not enough to sustain a manual. I don't have any inside knowledge here - this is just my own opinion based on sales figures. I would be very surprised if the manual continued on the V6, much less on the V8.
That said, you may want to check out the New York Auto Show later this month. I think you'll find something interesting there. :-)
I bought LS8 Sport a month ago and love it. Only question now is whether I spend the $40K now on an 02, or wait a few months for an 03.
Anyway, I believe there may be a few advantages (IMHO) to an early-build 00 Sport. Many on this board are more knowledgeable, and I'm sure will correct me when I'm wrong.
The early build cars had the Alpine audio system, with amp and subwoofers. It may not have been available later in 00.
They also shipped with a full-size spare, which I prefer.
Cars built before mine shipped with 3.58 rear gearing. That should get you going a little quicker, but you'll run at higher RPMs and use a little more gas.
Some folks believe the early production cars had better fit. I know mine is about perfect to my untrained eye.
I've read about little things like the turn signal/multifunction switch being stouter in the early build cars.
One thing I don't understand, and this may be a build date issue also (mine is 0799), is the auto-dimming mirror. Mine doesn't seem to have this feature, nor does the mirror control look like the one in the manual. It also doesn't have a manual dimming switch/lever.
Its hard for me to opine on other options, as I seem to have most. I don't have active track, and wish I did. Seems like an excellent feature, especially in that you can turn it off. There are no options I'd avoid, but you may want to cofirm that a moonroof is factory installed. I've heard the aftermarket versions can be a problem.
Enjoy.
If Lincoln would have packaged the stick with the V8, sport package and LSD (a cheap way to one up the competition) they would have sold 2000-3500 per year not two hundred. I bet 90% of these sales would have been conquest customers that bought a BMW with a stick and therfore would have added to the overall sales, not cannibalized automatic LS sales. This would have built a larger loyal customer base and a reputation to build upon for the export market.
If Lincoln management does not offer a true performance version of the LS then Lincoln deserves to fail. It is disappointing that Ford always seems so short sighted. They test the waters with a toe and if the temp is not perfect they run away. What a bunch of whimps.
And if I may opine on whether Lincoln should put a 6 speed on the 2003 V8, I think they should. I'm not going to buy it, and 98+ % of buyers won't either, but there's still a business case for doing so. If you look at the last Car & Driver (and most other road tests), the car tested was the 6 cylinder because it had a manual. Because all these mags seem hung up on "price" as the basis for comparison, the roomier, heavier LS was tested against smaller, quicker vehicles. A 6 speed V8 model would have to be tested against 540i's, and it would do so favorably as a SCREAMING bargain.
Given that this is supposed to be Lincoln's image changing youth car, Lincoln needs the press that this would give. The current LS is a good start, but the job is not done. Besides, I think 1/2 of the people who bought the 5 speed hang out here. What would you guys do next if there's no manual to choose from? Lincoln knows how important you are to the success of the car. You should be rewarded with a 6 speed v8 for your efforts.
Mike,
This may be part of what you're referring to:
Quote:The Lincoln LS was introduced in the 2000 model year. Special safety features All 2000 and later LS models manufactured after February 2000 include structural changes to improve occupant protection in frontal crashes. (Note: information about when a specific vehicle was manufactured is on the certification label typically affixed to the car on or near the driver door.)
-http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/00017.htm
For what it's worth, the LS performed better than a BMW 3-Series, and just as well as the BMW 5-Series in the IIHS tests. Not too shabby.
Mike
LLSOC Charter Member
The wipers are fine, and I do have the small button, and what look like indentations for indicator lights above and to either side. Guess the picture in the manual just looks a little different.
Tom
Yes, they had honorable intentions. The Manual was the only 4 door, RWD, shiftable competition to BMW for almost 15 years. I barely made it through the Great Darkness Of FWD myself, and I almost had to give in to the the Great Tsami Of Slush Boxes as well. But then the Great Renaissance of RWD Manuals came and the LS Manual became too uncompetitive. Add the new Pearl Harbor attack from the Land of the Rising Sun which does 0-60 in very close to 6 seconds with a slush box and we'll soon have The Great Kraut Rout. Later this year, the same attackers will launch the Final Solution - a six-speed Manual version at under 6 seconds starting at about 28k and that's why the next M3 is going up in HP. Needless to say, the richer boy racers are going to adopt this car and walk away from their IS300's in mass. I don't expect actual abandoned ISes, but the Lexi people are going to have to make decisions like LM did on the LS Manual. Maybe LM saw the writing on the wall early. The only other player may be the O4 CTS with the new hot V-6 (goodbye OPEL). I'm just sitting here watching this incredible horsepower race and thinking of 1970 and how the insurance companies may start bringing back hp/weight rates and ending all the fun. Then the car companies will start underrating hp figures like Chevy did with the 290 hp Z28 (which put out MUCH more). Does history repeat itself?
Lincoln dealers also will be able to buy from McLaren a $5,000 performance kit they can fit to cars in inventory. The kit includes special wheels and tires and adds about 40 HP from a redesigned intake and exhaust system.
Manual: A third reason: The pleasure of the skillful athleticism (hand, eye, foot, ear coordination)required to consistently execute properly-timed shifts that are imperceptible to the passenger.
How about Brembo slotted or cross drilled 4 piston calipers and larger diameter discs.
Or even better, electrically actuated brakes.
The performance gain is shorter stopping distances,reduced unsprung weight,and less brake fade.
He said that the one they see doesn't suggest it and says warranty won't cover. Is this possible?
Are there 2 TSBs one for consumer and one for dealer ? Is this possible? I am really infuriated over this
When will these dealers get the idea of customer service through their thick skulls.
Bruno
LLSOC member
goodyr1, your dealer is feeing you a massive line. I would ask to speak to the regional representative for Lincolns service ASAP. Keep us posted on what happens. If you are a member of LLSOC, there might be resources there to assist you in this problem with your dealer.
Regards,
Victor
LLSOC Central Texas Director
P.S. I went through the same thing... It is not necessarily the dealers fault. The New TSB coming out soon should hopefully minimize this further.
Dan
I called the dealership where my car went & he still said he is right cant fix both under warranty.
I told him I wanted to speak to the Regional Representative for Service about it. I told him i am upset that 3 dealers can read it that both are to be fixed under warranty.
He said he would look into it and call me back in a half hour.
This burns me up beyond belief !!!
He told me to bring it in & they will have loaner for me etc etc.
I'm wondering if the technician will hold a grudge now, is that possible. With my luck I'll get the car back with rattles.
Such is life. Thanks to all who helped.
I honestly am sick over this deal because I have loved this car but get tire of taking it in for service issues even though they always give me a loaner and fix under warranty.
Again I appreciate your help as well as others.
I doubt your LS has left you stranded. Mine never has. Like you said it is a hassle.. And you shouldn't have a hassle for such an expensive vehicle. However, other cars also have their issues...
At least the Performance of the LS partially makes up for the the early growing pains.
Regards,
Victor
P.S. Make sure they are getting you the steel Replacements.
Buick GNX and GMC Syclore and Typhoon-has created a high-performance Lincoln LS. The car will be on display next week at the New York auto show.
McLaren plans to market a version of the car as a 2003 model this fall through about 100 Lincoln dealers. Price: $49,750 for the LS with an automatic transmission, almost $16, 000 more than a base 2002 LS with a V-6. A six-speed manual transmission is a $5,000 option. McLaren hopes to sell between 300 and 500 units annually. It will provide the powertrain warranty.
The McLaren version is powered by a supercharged 3.9 liter V-8 engine rated at 350 hp. It has four-piston brake calipers, a reworked suspension and several cosmetic upgrades.
"Our intention is absolutely not to put Mustang brute and brawn into a Lincoln" said McLaren CEO Steven Rossi. "It's to put BMW engineering elegance into a Lincoln."
The car will compete, he said, with the BMW M5 and Merceded-Benz AMG E55-two super high-performance German sports sedans that sell for about $70,000.
PERFORMANCE KIT AVAILABLE: Lincoln dealers also will be able to buy from McLaren a $5,000 performance kit they can fit to cars in inventory. The kit includes special wheels and tires and adds about 40 hp from a redesigned intake and exhaust system.
Rossi said the LS is the first Lincoln to get the performance makeover. He said McLaren's business plan is to become the high-performance arm of Lincoln. McLaren aims to be to Lincoln what AMG is to Mercedes Benz. AMG builds by hand small numbers of high-performance, premium-priced Mercedes vehicles. Next up, Rossie said, are a McLaren tweaked Lincoln Navigator and then Aviator.
Because of potential friction with McLaren's British race car operation, which is 40 percent owned by DaimlerChrysler, the high-performance Lincoln LS will not be branded as a McLaren. The engine will have "Powered by McLaren" on the twin intercoolers, and the orange and blue McLaren logo will be on the car's sides and embroidered on the seats.
ENCOURAGEMENT FROM LINCOLN: Rossi said Lincoln is not involved with the car's engineering or marketing, but it has provided technical information and has encouraged the project. Lincoln is not funding any of the development or EPA certification of the car.
Lincoln spokesman Jim Trainor said Lincoln has been considering deveoping high-performance vehicles, and the McLaren connection will be positive for the brand.
"Certainly the name is terrific, and the heritage is good to have," he said.
The high-performance LS won't be built by McLaren. Rossi said it will be modified by a Lincoln-approved "upfitter"-a company that can order vehicles from the factory, modify them and ship them back to the factory for distribution to dealers.
McClaren sounds like they appreciate the value of the platform. Wonder who'll sell/service these vehicles? Certainly won't be the geriatric "gentlemen" who, for the most part, proved totally clueless when I was shopping for my car a couple of years or so ago.
Brian