Lincoln LS

explorerx4

it seems to me that if the dealer isn't going to address your issues BEFORE you own the car, maybe you should try another dealer. might cost a bit more initially, but pay off in the long run.
some service departments create issues that shouldn't be there. i'm pretty sure i've been through that(not lincoln), but it's kind of hard to tell. funny though, after i got ugly with service management, about the 4th time for the same issue(a leak), the reocurring problem has not happened since.

nvbanker

And I agree with that.

lolaj42

Here's a long-time LS guy chiming in. I've had my LS since Jan. '00 and loving every mile . . . approaching 40K and just out of warranty. I elected to save myself $1500 and NOT extend my factory warranty for another 2 years and 25K miles because I'm THAT confident in the car, and trust my dealership.

I recently had to replace the No. 6 coil-on-plug unit just before warranty expired because my dealer saw that it was ever so slightly performing less than 100% (98% effciency where Lincoln spec says NOT to replace it until it's functioning less than 75%). I'd say my dealer had my interests at heart.

I've trophied in each of the 2003 AZ SCCA Solo II Autocross seasons (Spring and Fall) running in a the local Street Tire 1 category as an F-stock car. On a handicapped basis, I've beaten all but one Z06 Corvette drivers (at least 5). The LS most definitely runs with the big dogs, and I haven't lost to a 5 series BMW yet (and there have been a few).

The real kicker to me, though, is the fact that this is still a luxury sedan, and not a kidney busting sports car. I drive it everyday with nary a problem in more than 4 years of steady service. This car has been THE MOST reliable vehicle I've ever owned, and that includes 2 Mazdas, and 2 Nissans (1 sports car and minivan each).

I only wish Lincoln would show more support for the DEW98/LS platform and continue to refine and improve it. The potential in this platform is abundant while the S-Type misses on several points. Lincoln's future plans are beginning to scare me away. I want to believe in them, but hope is fading.

nvbanker

I agree on the DEW, but it's too expensive for Lincoln to maintain, sadly. They would have to raise the price of the cars out of sight to keep it, I hear.

lolaj42

Lincoln's been selling the LS for 5 years now. The marketing gets more and more atrocious every year. LS sales numbers have followed the marketing effort. The big investment has already been made, it seems to me that Lincoln is wasting that investment by pouring good money into platforms that hold no promise for this 41 year-old buyer buyer. I seriously doubt Lincoln is losing money by having the LS on the showroom floor.

desertguy

Exactly the poor marketing effort you are alluding too from todays Car Connection:

"Ford Uses Car Few Will Buy In Super Bowl Ads

Ford said Thursday it will run two ads for the GT supercar during the pre-game
of the Super Bowl. By bypassing the actual game broadcast, the company says it
is spending its money wisely because, says Ford Division marketing communication
manager Rich Stoddart, attention wanes from the kickoff on.
Two TV spots, one 30-seconds and one 60-seconds, will run that are little more
than video postcards of the screaming, growling GT, which "goes on sale" this
summer for a sticker of $139,995, though dealers who actually sell them to
customers instead of keeping them for their own garages are sure to charge more.

Still, it seems odd that Ford wouldn't at least mingle in images or teasers of
the 2005 Mustang, a car the young men watching the pre-game will actually be in
a position to buy in the fall. It's not the first iffy advertising move made by
Ford Division chief Steve Lyons. Last year, Lyons introduced "If you haven't
looked at Ford lately, look again," ad slogan. It was meant to play off the
infamous "Have You Driven a Ford Lately" tagline of yore, but has come a cross
as an apologetic "please pick me" plaintiff cry in Ford's Centennial year, a
year that should have had a more prideful, celebratory advertising tenor."

http://www.thecarconnection.com

akirby

What car company advertises a new car in January that won't be available until October? I doubt you'll see anything of the new Mustang from Ford until September at the earliest. They still have to sell a lot of the old ones.

desertguy

Conversely, what car company advertises a car that in effect won't be available at all? (GT) At least with the Mustang they can create a pent up demand prior to the availability. I remember getting literature for 8 months prior to the release of the PT Cruiser. I thought D.Chry. did a great job with that promotion.

akirby

You're confusing brand new models (GT, PT Cruiser) with updates of existing models. When they advertise the new models they don't have to worry about sales of existing models currently sitting on dealer lots. Totally different ballgame.

The GT is all about building up Ford's image - not about selling GTs. They're already sold.

iniki13

Thanks for the previous comments. However there is one question which hasn't been addressed.

...Can anyone tell me what changed with Job Order #2 other than the $160.00 price difference?...

I've noticed there are a couple of TSBs which specifically address issues with production before 5/15/03. It seems likely Job Order #2 production began on 5/16/03 and may have addressed those issues. Can anyone confirm?

lateralg

We are not alone.

Do a search on the Lexus GS board & you'll see.

lateralg

Harry,

Which post caused the "damage"?

pat

You have to ask? :-)

desertguy

You're point is well taken. Nonetheless, I think Ford needs some fresh new advertising or maybe a different agency altogether.

lateralg

Yup. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? :-)

lateralg

Yup. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? :-)

akirby

I totally agree and nothing would give Ford more PR than the new Mustang. But reality says they have to sell the old model for at least 8 more months. I'm sure when the time comes they'll blast the airwaves.

Just like they've done with the LS. :-)

erickpl

Hyping the Mustang is one thing. Hyping the other cars in the barn is another story. You see a lot of commercials for Caddy's SRX but they have the STS-V coming. Having a plan for each line or division is something the American manufacturers don't quite seem to get.

Personally, I don't mind them keeping the LS on the quiet side. Just makes it that much more of a surprise. But that quiet may have a way of killing the best things out there too...

-Paul

the_necroscope

The Paranoia post...

nvbanker

I agree it is shameful the way the LS has been neglected by Ford Marketing. Frankly, the whole Lincoln division has been neglected, but the SUVs got at least some attention, Town Car a little. Poor little LS just sits out there orphaned.

Advertising the GT doesn't seem that dumb to me - sure I'll never buy one, but I still enjoy seeing one burn up the road, and it sends a message about Ford that the competition can't match right now. It's being very well received by the critics and exposure is what it was made for. Not to sell, and certainly not to make a profit.

v8lincolnguy

I don't see how the DEW(LS/S-type/T-bird) platform is too expensive for Lincoln. Maybe for a Ford or Mercury but Lincoln is a luxury marque. And with it being used in various applications, they should be able to amortize the costs pretty well. If Lincoln would price the LS close to what the typical transaction price on one is(and close to what they were priced at in 2000) and advertise the car better, they might actually see a sales increase. Instead they keep on raising the MSRP, increasing the amount of rebates, deleting little features here and there, and sales are falling. I was looking through some old MT and C&D magazines from the 2000 and 2001 time frame and there were actually a good number of LS ads in there. While they still weren't the type of ads a car like the LS should have, they were better than what you see now. Heck, I can't even remember the last time I saw an ad for an LS. And the last one I remember made more to do about the available THX sound system. Yes, that is a nice and unique feature in a car but it is not what the LS is about. I don't see BMW boasting about the Harman/Kardon audio systems in their cars in their ads. In closing, I have to wonder if Lincoln is using the same ad agency Oldsmobile was using in their final years. As I former Intrigue owner, I can tell the lame ads and lack of effective advertising sure is familiar. At least it doesn't detract from the driving pleasure of the car.

v8lincolnguy

Even the local dealer rarely shows an LS on their TV ads. It's always the elaphantine Navigator and geriatric Town Car. And since they are an L-M dealer they also show a Grand Marquis and $16,999 Sables. No LSs, no Mountaineers, no Aviators, (and when it was still in production) no Cougars. Just like I've said over in the Cadillac CTS thread(where most dealers are doing the same things L-M dealers do), if I were a Lincoln dealer, I'd be playing up the LS's value, performance, and luxury versus similar priced competitors rather than how many thousands you can save on a Town Car.

crazybabydoc

I purchased an LS for my wife in September. I liked it so much I almost bought one for me. IMHO, Oldsmobile never invested in the proper marketing and continued development of its vehicles. The same old geezers that didn't know what to do with Auroras or Bravadas are the same type that will put a fork in the LS.

As long as our elders dominate L-M showrooms, L-M will continue to Geritol the product selection. Catera was a lame vehicle. The first CTS was a lame vehicle. The 2nd generation CTS is arguably at parity if not a step above the LS. And then the CTS-V adds insult to injury. But sometimes money (and a plan) does wonders.

In the case of the LS, L-M needs to decide if they are going to build a car of the future or Frankenstein from the parts bin.

ANT14

(I'm going to get in trouble for this one)

What little advertising money is left for Lincoln to splurg on, they rather use on vehicles that make a larger profit, such as Navigator, Town Car and Avaitor. Unfortunately "Old Detroit" thinking reigns supreme at Ford when it revolves to marketing these vehicles.

Travel Well? Sounds more like an advertising stunt for American Tourister luggage. And that itself should give you an idea of who they are trying to target....Traveling? The LS is a driver's car, NOT some limo conversion.

IN the next coming months a few more upper executives will get fired/released/etc (choose your politically correct word for this) and I'm hoping it's part of the "Old Detroit" crowd that still looms there.

Let's hope with the introduction of the Mark LT (rediculous name) pick-up (which will probably only receive marketing at the start only), that a different marketing tactic is used. And personally, if they killed the TOWN Car (which is really the only vehicle that doesn't carry the engineering traits of the other's) it would resolve the anchor Ford has to feeding the needs of the older demographics. Hence, more freedom for marketing.

nvbanker

Here's hoping nobody from the home office reads your editorial, ANT, but we appreciate the perspective. My dealer is just as frustrated. The LS is probably the most underrated and undersupported product for sale today. I am totally at a loss to understand why Lincoln-Mercury has had their feeding tube removed since they were taken out of the PAG. They feel like the orphan of the company, and do resemble Oldsmobile in the last days, but only from the "wrong turn" perspective. Yet, I love the SUVs they are putting out, the GM is probably the best bargain/value car on the market in N.A., and the LS is a real jewel - just nobody knows these things!

mrgdr

The "Service Park Brake" message indicates the electric parking brake needs to be recalibrated by the service department. Easy fix. I've been there and done that on my '03. You should NOT see fogging on HID lamps. I would suspect a serious problem as these units are sealed unlike standard Halogen units. I would insist on replacement of both sides as a condition of sale.

slunar

IMHO a good part of the LS's sales success or lack of, lays right in the hands of the L-M dealers.

I purchased 2 Lincoln LS's and 1 Mercury Cougar in the last 4 years, so I am very familiar with the L-M dealers near me.

I'd say its about 50-50 with the L-M dealers and the LS. That is about half of the 8 dealers I've visited seem to embrace the LS and actively try to sell it. The other half seem to regard the LS with disdain and do not seem very happy with the more knowledgeable customers who are interested in the LS. These dealers appear to want comatose customers who are know nothing about cars nor how to buy them. That is they desire customers who are easier to take advantage of and many LS customers are out of these dealer's comfort zone.

slunar

The 2003 LS job 2 changes were very minor.

Job 2 was March 3, 2003
Changes were:
The addition of the wood trim option for the V8 sport model.
The addition of the side air curtian air bag option.
The end of Apspen Green Paint
The re-appearance of Vivid Red Paint

There are a couple of other changes that occurred in 2003 that were not part of Job 2. May 15, updated PCM code. Sometime in April the DVD Navigation system was updated.

div2

Take your post #13037, substitute "Merkur" for "LS", and you'll be telling the story of L-M circa 1985-1989. Most L-M dealers don't have a clue about how to sell a car to someone who doesn't wear white belts/shoes and has all their own teeth. In 1982 I visited Bluegrass L-M in Louisville to ask about the hot(for the time) 5.0 HO Capri. Some guy in his sixties smugly advised me that the only way to get a 5.0 Capri was to special order one-since "most people won't want 'em-they get horrible gas mileage." Fast forward about ten years; My wife and I are at ANOTHER L-M dealer looking for a Tracer LTS(which was getting some good ink as a sporty econo-sedan). One problem: No manual transmissions. The idiot salesman tells us, "You don't need a stick-the car is already fast enough." About ten years after that I'm back at the same dealer trying to check out the then-new L-S. The sales guy knows NOTHING about the car; he even tells me that you can get a stick with the V8. The icing on the cake was the moron's analysis of the styling: "I really like it-'cause it looks like a Lexus." I know Ford doesn't have the money or sense to do it, but if they really want to mount a serious domestic challenge in the Luxo-Sport segment they will have to create a new brand as Toyota did with Lexus. And yes, Cadillac is in the same boat-at least once a weak I see a ball-capped octogenarian driving a CTS fitted with the always-tacky Gold Package AND a fake convertible top. Put the hammer down, Paw-Paw!!!

nvbanker

Interesting observations. I must say, I can't count the times a sales person has lied to me about a car, when I already knew more facts about it than they did. But it's not exclusive to L/M dealers at all, at least not around here. It's a real turn off though, and I would walk from someone like that. That's one reason I usually stay with my dealer friends. Better level of trust.

lolaj42

that while the discussion volume on this topic (the LS) has dropped markedly from its heyday about 2 years ago, the range of discussion and general observations haven't changed all that much. For instance, we're still discussing the near absence of Lincoln marketing effort for the LS, comparisons with the Merkur and it's demise despite all it's positive allure.

To me, I think it's a case in point of how the "old timers" at Ford/Lincoln-Mercury are out of touch with the American car buying public. Despite all the negatives associated with Jac Nasser, at least he had the foresight to allow Jim Rogers (then VP of Lincoln Marketing) to move Lincoln's headquarters away from the stuffy confines of Dearborn for the sunny skies of Irvine, CA. Nasser was also at the helm when the LS/DEW98 was originally conceived. Why not also give him some of the credit for Lincoln's introduction of the Navigator, which has been an absolute success story and created the Luxury SUV category. Since his abrupt departure, Lincoln's been left adrift . . . no new product buzz, no building on past success.

Billy Ford and Lincoln brass . . . what's the plan? Please don't tell me you ONLY want to dress-up lesser vehicles and pass them off as "American Luxury." Lincoln AND Mercury need distinct platforms that represent higher levels of refinement from the Ford brand. Mercury should be the middle ground that "dresses-up" Ford models on their low end, and "strips-down" Lincoln models on their high end. With this approach, it would seem that the LS could be more widely sold in a more stripped fashion, similar to how it can be purchased in Canada (cloth seats, fewer power accessories, etc.)

Enough of my rant . . . I still LOVE my '00 V8 Sport. It's been the most reliable car I've ever owned through it's first 4 years of service.

akirby

There's nothing wrong with Lincoln that a couple of billion dollars couldn't fix. All the big plans for Lincoln became a victim of cost cutting driven in large part by the Explorer/Firestone debacle. If Lincoln could afford to make the big investment that Cadillac did you'd see similar (although hopefully much better looking) results.

Ford had to update their trucks since that's their bread and butter. Then they had to redo their mainstream cars because they were neglected for so long. Now they can at least put some money back into Lincoln-Mercury although I'm sure it's much less than the $2B planned back in 2001.

nvbanker

We beat up Nasser for ruining the company, but he did a lot for Lincoln for a while at least. Not sure if I should blame him for ruining the Town Car or not, but I can credit him for the Navigator and the LS, and for putting Lincoln in the PAG. It seemed to bring Lincoln forward a lot. Now that it's been stuffed back into Dearborn, the results aren't encouraging. And, akirby is also correct. So, how long before Billy can notice Lincoln is dying and fix her, akirby?

div2

I agree, every marque has it's share of awful dealers and salespeople. That said, L-M has an additional problem(as does Cadillac); they are trying to sell a world-class sports sedan through a dealer network that usually deals with customers who are thirty years older than the target demographic of the LS. Most L-M salespeople think of the LS as the car you sell to the wife of the retired guy who already has a Town Car. You usually find the LS stuck over in a dark corner of the showroom while the AARP specials(Grand Marquis and Town Car) compete with the Bling-Bling Twins(Aviator and Navigator) for center stage. To top it all off, Lincoln has introduced yet another "corporate face" on it's latest concept vehicles. It's a retro take on the 1960 Lincoln Continental grille. How can we expect any consistent vehicle development or marketing when the powers-that-be can't stick with a styling theme for more than a couple of years?

desertguy

Nobody has mentioned what I think is a big problem in making Lincoln a world class premiere car. That is the Ford/Mercury/Lincoln dealer. Now I don't know what percentage of the L/M dealers also sell Fords out of the same store but there are tons of them. The smaller the market, the more apt the dealer is to sell all three with Ford of course the bread & butter. I bought my LS at a F/L/M dealer. This dealer had sent a couple of his top sales people to a "school" in northern Calif. to learn all about the LS, its features, and it even had a driving course. These guys came back with great enthusiasm and were selling LSs like crazy. But the general run of dealers did nothing and how can you expect a guy selling Escorts and Focuses all day to be a proponent of the LS?

This dealer also had a service lane marked "Lincoln owners only." Of course it was almost totally ignored by the F150/Taurus crowd.

fantom

lola,nvbanker and div2 are right on about the lack of foresight at the highest levels in Ford. Still Ford stock is doing well for the time being...thanks to their trucks. Our superb LS's may unfortunately be collectors items one day, just like the Edsel.

BTW, nice to see you around Chris. I missed getting in a few shots at you, for what my Marlins did to your Bankees ;-)

nvbanker

OUCH!! C'mon, that may have been true up until 02, but when the new 'slade' came out, it instantly relegated most Navigators to guys like me, who wouldn't be caught dead with 'dubs' on the truck! I've yet to see the Aviator on MTV either And I'm just FINE with that, BTW.

lolaj42

Ouch, that one got me too.

Fantom(Gary) - good to hear from you. I've been waiting to hear from you about that subject . . . the knife is still in, so go ahead and turn it just a little bit more, lol. As the saying goes, wait 'til next year my friend!

v8lincolnguy

The Escalade seems to be the new "bling bling" SUV now. Personally, I don't care for any of the SUVs that size/price. If money were no object, I'd have a nice SUV(i.e. Eddie Bauer Explorer or maybe an Aviator) and put the serious cash into a luxury/sport sedan or all out sports car.

Speaking of the Navigator and Lincoln's woes, the Navigator cannot be ignored as it is a big seller and an even bigger cash cow for Ford. However, I consider the Navigator in the same vein as a Town Car. Sure, it's demographic is younger, but it is the same type of vehicle. That is it is big and cushy. Lincoln and Cadillac need one or two vehicles like that as there are some customers(young and old) who simply want a big, cushy riding sedan or SUV. Trouble is, that should not be all or most of your product. Cadillac is getting away from this as once the next-gen STS bows later this year, the Deville and Escalade will be their only true land yauchts. For performance, they will have the CTS, CTS-V, STS(probably an STS-V down the road), the XLR, and the SRX which is a car based SUV. Lincoln has the LS and that is it. And the LS as good as it is, is in it's 5th year of production now. So what is Lincoln getting ready to roll out? Luxury truck number two, the Mark LT. First off, what an abortion of the Mark name. While the LT looks to be more practical than the Blackwood and much closer to Cadillac's Esalade EXT, a Mark it is not!!! Now the Mark X is much more my kind of car. Build the Mark X and a modern day Continental and Lincoln might get back on track. And while the T-car will probably be with is for some time, at least put the 32 valve DOHC 4.6 in it.

div2

Well, I was being a little tongue-in-cheek, but I sure wish that the Aviator looked like the Mountaineer. I LIKE the looks of that sled.

nvbanker

Like I said earlier, the Town Car looks like it's on a feeding tube at this point, it is so devoid of technology or pizazz of any kind inside or out, it's worth of GM!

Even insiders at Ford hate the Mark LT name, and they didn't invite me to the focus group to name this truck (I was involved in the naming of the Aviator, which originally, Lincoln wanted to name the Navigator 4.6) or I would have protested vehemently, I assure you.

I agree, really another Lincoln truck is probably not the best idea for Lincoln at this time, and likely won't be a huge seller, as I may add, neither is the Escalanch! But, it is what they could get out quickly and cheaply, and will make maximum profit, which Ford desperately needs right now to survive. So, I'm hoping it sells, and perhaps Lincoln will get a dime or two from the proceeds to develop the Mark X or Navicross.

cdnpinhead

down memory lane. I don't need to say anything more (for once) than Chris, Allen and the others have already reiterated. This board has been going for five years now, plus a week or two, and some of us have been along for nearly all of that time.

For only the past two or so years have the lamentations been prominent. Three years ago quite a few of us were still basking in the pleasure of the 6 Jan 01 gathering, sponsored in part by Edmunds (surprisingly enough, in retrospect).

Nice hearing from everyone.

nvbanker

I think the LS has a better following than the Mustang does. It will be interesting to me to see how well this club takes to the next gen LS.

lsluvr

"It will be interesting to me to see how well this club takes to the next gen LS."

What club??

fantom

Every unique car has groups and clubs that are nuts about it. The LS is no different.

lolaj42

I changed my oil today, and when I went to reset the computer/message center, I inadvertantly reset my Cabin Air Filter % remaining life indicator. I'm not sure yet if I can restore the number that was there, and I didn't see what the % life remaining was before I reset it. However, I do know the mileage and date from when I last changed the cabin air filter, so I could calculate it by hand if necessary, though I don't remember what the recommended service length is. :-(

I do know that it relates to both age and mileage. Can anyone help me out?

lobsenza

My air filter change triggered at 11 months old and 10,000 miles. My vehicle was special order and was delivered as soon as it got to the dealership. The next filter change was done at 19500 11 months later. I currently have 27500 miles and have 37% of the life remaining (7 months).

The engine oil life can be reset to less than 100% on an oil change by following the procedure in the owner's manual. It works. I am not sure if that feature is available for the air filter or not.

I found that the air filter does is not excessively dirty when I changed it the first time (the second change was done by the dealer so I didn't see it).

I hope that helps....

lolaj42

Andy. It seems that, from your experience, the cabin air filter change interval is more dependent on time than mileage (~12 months). I last changed my filter on May 30, 2003, ~10K miles ago. The time before that was July 27, 2001 and ~14K miles. I'm just going to make a note to myself to visually check it again in May.

Thanks again for the assistance.

heyjewel

Chris - You're a Yankees fan? If so, you should know that next year belongs to the Red Sox!!

BTW, did u ever get an Aviator?

G

lolaj42

George - Yes, I'm a Yankee's fan. I bleed pin-stripe blue. Born in the Bronx, and YOU WISH next season belongs to the Sox!

Aviator acquisition in progress . . .