how much leeway does a local dealer have in advertising what they've got? It sounds like most/each dealer has people who know the LS pretty well. Maybe pushing the LS locally (like a grassroots effort) would send the signal to Detroit that the LS is a great car?
have a 2000 LS8 with 80k miles. I have had it in the dealer 3 times for the heat. 1st problem heat not working well - Dealer did not find anything wrong with car. 2nd Heat not working well and the smell of exhaust fumes. Dealer replace thermostat did not detect presence of exhaust smell. 3rd Heat working better but not great. Then see and smell exhaust fumes coming from interior vents. Dealer had car for 3 days. Stated had car running for 1/2 hr with no smell and no fumes seen.
Has anyone had this problem? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks Dana
Dana, I have not heard of a heat problem like you describe where exhaust fumes are in the cabin.
I have heard of several people who have had heat problems where they either would get no heat or the opposite full blast heat. IIRC that problem is due to the temp control mixing valve getting stuck due to particles in the coolant. With 80K miles on your LS has the coolant been changed and /or the cooling system flushed?
I own a Black/Black 2000 LS v-8 with gold and wood trim, advance trac, heated seats, 6-cd changer, moonroof and tints. 86,000 happy miles. I am going to buy an 03 or 04. First, if you are interested in buying the 2000, let me know. Second, should I try to find the last of the 03's or spend a little more to get an '04?
The '03 is where all the significant improvements were introduced, as you probably already know. I'm far enough out of the loop at the moment to not know what's "new and improved" for '04. My guess is. . .not much.
If you're planning to keep your next LS for quite awhile and actually buy it, the '03 would be my recommendation -- the price reductions knock your socks off. If you're leasing, or buying to keep only a few years, that extra model year is a big, big deal. Go with the '04.
Either way, you'll enjoy your new car.
My dinosaur (nearly no options, and old) '00 manual is running like a top and I'm hoping to drive it well beyond 100K miles. I'm at 62K now and expect to get through the next year without significant issues. My last "Big 3" American-designed vehicle went way, way south in its fourth year, with about the same mileage my LS will acquire in the next 12 months. I'm fairly confident the LS will show its mettle, but you never know.
The shame is that the LS on the DEW98 platform will either be eliminated (by Ford beancounters) or the LS mantle will be placed on a much lesser car (by the same crowd).
My understanding is that there were very few changes between 2003s and 04s. One of biggest was the deletion of the rain sensing wipers on 04s. I'm sure there were others but nothing major. As said before, 03 was when the big changes were. The more I read about the improvements made on the 03s, the more tempted I am to consider one in a few years when it is time to replace my 2001. It's as if nearly everything that I thought could be improved upon with my 01 was addressed with the 03 model.
Getting an intermittent puff of smoke that comes from under the hood and the smell of burnt rubber. Opening the hood reveals no evidence other than smell coming from somewhere near firewall and heater area by the passenger side of engine compartment. Do get the smell in the cabin through heat ducts. Any ideas what might be causing this? (2000 V8 Sport)
“It's as if nearly everything that I thought could be improved upon with my 01 was addressed with the 03 model. “
Having owned a Y2K LS8 Sport, and now an almost identical ‘03, my sentiments exactly.
I bought an ‘03 this month (800 happy [s]miles! So far!) and here was my thinking:
Briefly, I saw no significant differences mechanically or cosmetically, and I looked over a couple of ‘04s and ‘03s carefully. One thing that did change was the free maint. Better deal on the ’03!!! Oh, and I believe the heated / cooled front seats are NOT standard on the ’04 Sport.
The point about leasing vs. purchase is legit. I purchased mine, and buying a “leftover” puts me in a low mileage vehicle, compared to many ‘03s sold as long as a year ago, and now with 5K 10K or more miles. When I trade, in 3 years +/-, I will likely have an average miles car.
I expect that, if you can afford either one, then either one would be a terrific choice. Nice to have that kind of choice! If you can not find an ‘03 with the options and color combo. that works for you, you can even order an ’04.
As V8lincolnguy said, there are very few changes between the '03 & 04 LS's.
The biggest change is that the #1 cross member - the cradle the radiator sits in - is stronger on the '04's. This change was made to improve NVH. The front springs and sway bar mounts are also changed again as part of the NVH improvement.
The 04 trannie has a bleed valve to make for quicker shifting into reverse.
2 new paint colors, interior colors are a little bit different, but similar to the '03's.
Starting with Dec. production the auto wipers were deleted - that is early '04's that are still on dealer lots will have the auto wipers.
The Alpine & THX audio systems have provision for Sirius satellite radio.
Complementary maintenance is only 12 mo / 12K miles instead of 36 mo / 36K miles (warranty is still 48 mo / 50K miles).
There may be a few other minor changes, but that's about it.
I also have that problem. Leaky valve covers result in damage to the spark plug coils and some engine stuttering occurs...as was read in the engine diagnostics when my dash gave an engine warning light. To do the gasket replacement you need either the kit of gaskets and "O" Rings or separate gaskets and "O" Rings. As luck would have it, the kits are out of stock nation-wide. The other pisser is that it takes some time to remove the valve covers and replace the gaskets...easily a $400.00 job if you are not under warranty.
The LS is a great car but if you are not under warranty the usual failures can cost. The other costly issue I'm dealing with is sway bar bushing replacement....The current front-end clunking is almost unbearable. I have already replaced the right ball joint and it is highly possible that the left one is also contributing to the clunking.
I just had an engine stumble a few weeks ago, and my dealer diagnosed a slightly underperforming coil-on-plug (COP) unit. They replaced it under warranty even though it was still operating within spec. Of course, this service visit was within 2 days of going out of warranty . . .
On the bright side, there was no sign of oil contamination on the replaced COP. Also, at 40K miles, my sway bar bushings are still performing as they should (i.e., no clunking), but I imagine this is related to total miles driven.
I have 63K on the car. I am contemplating doing the gaskets myself. The oil leakage does damage to the COP units so a few of them may need to also be replaced. While I'm at it, I might as well change the plugs.
I should have gotten the extended warranty.....What was I thinking!
I might need a CTS-V to hold me over til Lincoln does it's 06 version. ;-) (I wonder what insurance will cost on that sucker??)
Slunar You said: <<The front springs and sway bar mounts are also changed again as part of the NVH improvement.>> True and... The front springs were changed to soften the ride. The swaybars were downsized accordingly and the bushings were bonded to them to avoid the bad clunking bushing problems of past years where the bushings dried up and and and....
That may explain my "slight miss" condition. For several months now(even before I started noticing the smell) I began getting a shudder at idle. It is most noticeable when you start the car cold and the revs begin to drop to around 1K. The whole car will shake a bit sometimes. Once warmed up it is not as bad, but idling at a traffic light, you can feel a slight vibration through the steering wheel. Mentioned it to the dealer twice and both times was told to run 87 octane gas in the car(which I didn't do). Been busy so I hadn't really had a chance to take it in, but now that I'm getting the smell, I need to make a service appointment. And it will be at a different dealer than the one I had been going to.
Yep it's common. The service department can read it if it throws a code. In my case the engine light confirmed what I had been feeling. Stuttering, reduction of power etc...
Jay, can you share any rumors you've heard? Personally, I'm not holding my breath anymore, as I just don't think Lincoln intends to develop the LS any further. I hope I'm wrong though.
In two years from now, I will be seriously considering the new SVT Mustang Cobra, as I will no longer need to accommodate a child safety seat in the back. Much of the SVT Cobra underpinnings should be along the lines of what LS enthusiasts have been clammoring for . . . minus the luxury, refinement and size of course.
Hope springs eternal that Lincoln will step up and give the Caddie folks some competition. But all the news coming out of Detroit says AWD, Continental, New Towncar?, larger DEW platform variant. And of course dragging around Mercury. (Ford’s version of Oldsmobile)
It is that” larger DEW platform variant” that intrigues some of us. But in order for Lincoln to build a hi-po LS they would have to beef up the rear end and go to a LSD, tweak the rear suspension, add big brakes, add 6 speed manual and 6 speed auto. If designed correctly they could build it into the next model change but there seems to be no real rumors with any substance. It is hard to imagine that they could do a hi-po number on the current model towards the end of it’s run. So maybe in 06 ???
Engines Wow Ford has excellent selections 4.6, Jag 4.2SC, 5.0, GT(40), V10 etc 2 valve 3 valve, 4 valve they have seemingly limitless possibilities
The irony here is that Lincoln engineering is fabulous if allowed to be creative. But they (Lincoln and its parent Ford) have yet to declare war. Darryl Hazel wants sweeping changes to create the unique brand image and reputation that Lincoln Mercury is sorely lacking. But we have not seen any evidence that Ford is behind him. Maybe we will? I sure hope so.
Bob Lutz went to GM with the understanding that decisions will be made and that he really didn't need to come out of retirement to play GM politics. So it can be argued that he is once again creating a very exciting time for the General.
At the recent LA auto show the LS was a background event. They didn't even have the new sharp-looking 04 LSE to show the vast West Coast audience. "A drivers luxury car" is the new tag line used in the new TV ads I see on the tube here. A good ad I must say!
Cadillac is doing it right. Their products have that "DNA" thing. Big SUV, X-over vehicle, pickup, Large Sedan, 4 door sedan and V-Series version, 2-door luxury sports car. And they are letting the leaks become much more than rumor...thus creating the ever-important buzz!
First you gotta wanna. Ford doesn't. Lincoln doesn't, and the nine guys within Lincoln who do (or did) have been promoted, transferred and/or ignored. Stick a fork in it.
I really don't think it's so much that they don't want to - they can't afford to. A supposed insider on another forum said that 3-4 years ago there were big plans (and budget) for Lincoln to take on BMW and the cars were in design. I heard $2B. Then came the Firestone fallout and huge budget cuts. They've never recovered. Caddy did it by spending a huge amount of $$. Unfortunately Lincoln can't so they have to be a little more thrifty. Thus the use of the Mazda 6 and other platforms.
I just think that $$ is a bigger factor than exectuve decisions.
I don't agree about the SUVs. I think SUVs and trucks bring in far more than they cost in terms of R&D and development money. Without them Ford's profit margin would decline and there would be even less money to spend on new cars.
I think it's more than just the money. If you look at any of the Lincoln Mercury ads in the paper for the past 1-2 years it is seldom if ever at all that an LS is even mentioned let alone advertised. This mornings paper had an ad in the sports section and every vehicle Lincoln has to offer plus a couple of Mercury's BUT NO LS. It is as if the LS does not exist...looks like the future to me.
Makes me sad, the LS is a great car I am now on my second one, with no real problems to talk about...just great performance and satisfaction; the LS grin is for real. It's unfortunate that the folks at Ford don't or won't understand that.
It's still about the $$$. They have virtually no budget for advertising so what little money they have goes for the SUVs which bring in more profit.
In the end it all comes back to $$$. The spirit is willing but the wallet is empty.
That's why I like the new Lincoln pickup. Almost no R&D costs so it will be very profitable (no blackwood comparisons please - it's totally different) and generate more cash.
We've heard conflicting stories on the demise of the LS as we know it. One anonymous person said the best (LS) is yet to come and the future is bright. However I think we also heard that 2 years ago so best to just wait and see.
Thanks for the advice. I will discuss with the dealer for the coolant change (I have had all the recommended maintenance and they replaced the thermostat). I will also have them check the valve cover gaskets and temp control mixing valve.
Thanks again for the help. This is a great car and I hope they keep making it.
Some of you have said the burnt rubber smell I have noticed is from leaky valve cover gaskets. Yesterday my wife drove the LS and she said a big cloud of smoke came through the ventilation ducts in the cabin. Would this still come from oil dripping on the exhaust manifold and wouldn't it smell like burnt oil versus burning rubber smell.
Well, we're taking a trip to Napa (the wine country) in May, and we just reserved our LS rental from Hertz, as we'll be doing lots of driving there. Looking forward to it, as I feel the LS is the perfect "driver's car". I absolutely love 'em.
Jay, it's good hearing from you, and thanks for the update. I think your comments are, as always, on target and consistent with my own thoughts with regard to Lincoln and the LS.
I can also agree with Allen's hypothesis about why Lincoln seems to be abandoning the LS, but it also seems to be short-sighted on Lincoln's part to squander such a world-class engineering effort that the LS represents. FMC/Lincoln-Mercury should have "found" the money to put into the LS because it is such a great vehicle, especially when compared to ANYTHING within the entire Ford Motor Company portfolio of vehicles. The LS wins on the value equation no matter how you slice it.
In the short-term, my wife and I will be buying a new ('04) Aviator very soon. Between her travel schedule, and the lack of suitably equipped Aviator anywhere near Arizona we haven't had the chance to finish a deal. Soon though.
After the Aviator though, I'm rather unsettled as to where my future car expenditures will go. All the reports say that the LS and the Aviator will go the way of the dinosaur. These have been the nearly the only vehicles I've been excited about over the past 5 years. A SVT Mustang Cobra does sound exciting, but I'd hate to give up the Lincoln refinement and creature comforts that I've grown accustomed to.
Thanks for the advice. I will discuss with the dealer for the coolant change (I have had all the recommended maintenance and they replaced the thermostat). I will also have them check the valve cover gaskets and temp control mixing valve.
Thanks again for the help. This is a great car and I hope they keep making it.
I've been drooling all over the Mustang concept for the last year and the real thing has me......well, let's just say I like it a lot! I'm seriously thinking GT convertible for me in a couple of years. I love the LS mix of luxury and sportiness but there's something about a manual GT convertible that hits a sweet spot with me right now.
"This mornings paper had an ad in the sports section and every vehicle Lincoln has to offer plus a couple of Mercury's BUT NO LS. It is as if the LS does not exist...looks like the future to me"
I saw the Lincoln ads yesterday too. Everything but the LS. The next page had an ad by a local Lincoln dealership and it had an '04 LS V8 Sport advertised for $29,999 or $12,500 under MSRP. That's not a good combo. No LS in the Lincoln sponsored ad and huge discount in the dealer ads. I'm hoping it's simply because it's winter and their not pushing the performance RWD vehicle. Maybe the ads will be a little more favorable to the LS in the spring.
rfdevil1 - same here in sunny Phoenix, Arizona. The sports section has ads for THREE separate Lincoln Mercury dealers (not Ford). I see Grand Marquis, Monterey's, Town Cars and SUVs, but NO mention of the LS. Pretty sad isn't it.
Steve, thanks for the update on rumor central. If the LS survives past '06, do you really think they'll can the unequal length A-arms in favor of struts???? Ugh. The Mustang is getting more appealing all the time . . . though I'd definitely be seeking out the SVT Cobra hardtop with IRS and all the other hi-po stuff.
However, the 2005 Mustang shown on the Cover of the Feb. '04 Car and Driver has definitely "lost something" from the initial concept/show car. Inevitable I suppose, but I'm hoping the aggressive/sporty edge will further develop in a year or two.
Thanks for the advice. I will discuss with the dealer for the coolant change (I have had all the recommended maintenance and they replaced the thermostat). I will also have them check the valve cover gaskets and temp control mixing valve.
Thanks again for the help. This is a great car and I hope they keep making it.
ANT can straighten me out here if I'm wrong, but I BELIEVE, the next gen LS planned, will share the Mustang platform (DEWLITE), and resemble what you're all getting excited about here. So, you may be happy with the new LS afterall.
As far as advertising, dealers will advertise what they can move, or discount to move, or have to move, etc. What Ford is doing with their ad dollars is probably more along the lines of what they can get the highest yield on. LS probably doesn't fit either today.
Chris - someone on a mustang site superimposed the concept car and the new car and they're almost identical. I've also heard it looks a lot better in person than in print.
If the next gen LS will share the Mustang underpinnings, then it means a less sophisticated strut front suspension than what the LS currently has. I imagine the steering feel will also be downgraded as well because of it. DEWlite represents a significant step backward from today's LS, and brings it back into the pack of virtually everything else.
The LS enthusiasts have generally clamored for the stop and go power destined for the next gen Mustang, while keeping the size, ride, and handling of the current LS. Tall order? Maybe, but not impossible . . . just (highly) unlikely.
Allen, I won't disagree that the new Mustang is close to the concept car, but I still think it lost something in translation. I also imagine that the concept Mustang was styled for the Cobra buyer as opposed to the base GT buyer.
Not sure if you remember but the concept mustang was built on a DEW98 chassis with no rear seat. Come to think of it - that makes it a sister to the Tbird, eh?
Not advertising the LS doesn't make sense. First off, the car is NOT a sales dud. 35K(take or give a bit) units annually ain't bad for a luxury sedan priced anywhere from low 30s to mid 40s. And maybe if Lincoln did promote the car more(like they did in 1999 and 2000) they might actually sell more. The LS's price class is VERY competitive and while the LS is not new anymore, it still doesn't have the instant name recognition that a 3 series or a C-class has. Look at what Cadillac is doing with the CTS, they are promoting the heck out of the car. And they really need to as the CTS is a totally new car and name(which replaces a very lackluster model). And it seems to be working, as the CTS has surpassed GM's sales expectations. Whats really scary is that what I see with the LS and it's lack of exposure is hauntingly familiar with what I saw happen at Oldsmobile several years before the decision was made to drop the brand. After an initial ad campaign that used a tie-in with the X-files movie, Olds did very little to promote the Intrigue(which was a totally new model) after the first year or so. And sales plummeted from around 90K annually in 98 and 99 to around 40K or so in 2001. While the LS may be getting long in the tooth for the current version, it still isn't a bad car and should be promoted. Heck, Lincoln had no problem promoting the old Town Car or Navigator models right up until the new ones were introduced.
Chris, this is all rumor stuff, so who knows how much of it is really is true. From what I can tell, if the future LS does go to strut front suspension, the driving force is that they need to do it to fit in the 4.6L mod motors.
Supposedly the 3.9L V8 was going away at the end of 2005, but I read in a Lima, OH newspaper (Lima is where the 3.9 is made) that the 3.9 will still be built for some time. What "for some time" means is not defined. It could mean that it just will continue on until mid 2006 when the updated LS comes along.
The core problem with the LS is that it costs Ford too much to build it. The reason why it costs too much to build, is that the LS shares very little with any other N. American Ford vehicle, except the 2 seat T-Bird which is low volume and is going away in a year.
So the only way Ford can lower the production cost of future LS models is to make them share more basic parts with other Ford N. American models.
From everything I've heard the Ford engineers are pretty happy with the front suspension on the 2005 Mustang. It is VERY much different than the old Mustangs. It is a true McPherson strut with the coil springs around the struts like BMW uses.
The media kit releases on the Mustang talks about how the front roll center has been raised and about the coil over setup, so it appears that Ford is very much in tune with the need to improve hangling and ride comfort in the new Mustang. (Too low a front roll center and too high a rear roll center is a major problem on the present Mustang.) One of the articles from Ford even talks about how the new 05 suspension will be better for Mustang owners who change the springs and ride height, so they certainly seem to have performance in mind.
I don't know if you've seen the renderings of the 05 Mustang suspension, but the lower control arms look very sexy and somewhat like whoever did the Mustang suspension must have worked on or was influenced by the LS.
So I gues what I'm saying is that if the 2006.5 LS looses its double wishbone front suspension it's not the end of the world, after all the darling of the automotive press, BMW uses strut type front suspension.
Is at least one of the primary reasons Infiniti got criticized when they redesigned the Q45 a few years ago. Infiniti's reply to the criticism was that "it's what class leader BMW uses, so why not criticize them." To me, that's a sign Infiniti was adopting a "follow-the-leader" attitude. You might also say the adage, "if you can't beat them, join them" applies here.
As for a revised, McPherson strut suspension needed to "make room" for the mod motors in the LS engine bay . . . I've ridden in a LS with the 4.6 mod motor installed back in 2002. In fact, the engine had been bored to 5.0 liters and mated to a Tremec 6-speed MANUAL transmission. Of course, this was a LS test mule on the Dearborn Proving Grounds test track, but aside from larger wheels and larger, crossed-drilled disc brakes, springs and sway-bars, the car was otherwise stock. I know the current LS already has to engine bay space to accommodate the 4.6 L mod motors (though maybe not to production specifications, as rail transport issues, amongst others have a significant influence).
I'm not saying it's the end of the world here either, but McPherson struts on the LS DOES represent a backward step in evolution, IMO.
Chris - the 4.6 motor fits with an inch or so to spare but it has to be put in from the top - it won't clear the lower control arm from the bottom thus it won't work on the assembly line. This is one of the many reasons the dew98 wasn't used for the mustang. Only the floor pan, tranny tunnel and fuel tank really survived the "cheapening". I think slunar is correct - this new dewlite has a lot of potential. Ford gained a lot of suspension know-how from the LS (and F1) and I think they're applying it now.
I'm starting to feel like I had better grab one of these beauties before it gets redone, or I'll miss out on owning one of the finest machines ever made - a diamond cloaked in Ford clothing.
Allen, I've never questioned why the DEW98 wasn't used for the Mustang . . . the Mustang is a smaller car than the LS/Jag S-Type, with a shorter wheelbase. The designers had no choice but to adapt the DEW98 for use with the Mustang, much like they did with the T-bird, though even more so.
Perhaps my recollection is wrong, but when my group of enthusiasts was taken from the Dearborn Proving Grounds to go to one of Ford's CAD design centers, I could have sworn we were told that the 4.6 mod motor COULD be installed from underneath. I suppose that, in order for that to happen, the front suspension components would have to be installed AFTER the engine was installed, but we didn't get to that level of detail in the discussion . . . it was more of an overall capability overview we were presented with. The plant layout at Wixom (which I've toured twice now) probably wouldn't be flexible enough to accommodate engine installation BEFORE the lower control arms, but I'm in no position to make that assessment. In any event, I trust the Ford people know what they're talking about and are only doing what makes sense for them to do. I'm not even sure where the Mustang will be assembled.
I also agree that the Mustang based DEWlite chassis has loads of potential for the performance enthusiast . . . I'm just not sure about the potential for the Luxury Sport enthusiast, which, IMO is a very different segment.
IMO, a move to struts or the 4.6 liter engine is a step backward. Yes, BMW achieves excellent performance with struts, but from a pure engineering standpoint, struts are a compromise. If US companies ever want to regain high regard throughout the world, they are going to need to put forth world class engineering and not just top notch numbers. The current LS is a step in the right direction for Ford/Lincoln and I would like to see them up the ante with the next generation model.
Chris, there is no way you could put a 4.6L DOHC engine in a LS on a production line. The width of the 4.6L DOHC is 30". I measured the distance between the shock towers on my 2003 LS and it is 30.5" at its widest point, but it is less than 30" at the bottom of the shock towers. There is an indent in the shock towers which matches the location of the heads on the 3.9L. The 3.9L is only 27" wide.
The 4.6L SOHC mustang motor would fit fine if put in from the top but won't clear the lower control arm from the bottom. This info came from the Mustang head honcho as reported in Motor Trend.
The DOHC version may not fit.
Remember - it's not what you start with it's what you end up with that counts.
"I'm starting to feel like I had better grab one of these beauties before it gets redone, or I'll miss out on owning one of the finest machines ever made - a diamond cloaked in Ford clothing. "
At the current OTD price for an '03, and with the current (un-subsidized) "cost of money", I agree. - Ray Voted with $$s . . .
"I'm starting to feel like I had better grab one of these beauties before it gets redone, or I'll miss out on owning one of the finest machines ever made - a diamond cloaked in Ford clothing. "
ABSOLUTELY! And, as Ray points out, the price just makes better, because it's by far the best value on the road today.
Comments
Just a thought...
-Paul
I have had it in the dealer 3 times for the heat.
1st problem heat not working well - Dealer did not find anything wrong with car.
2nd Heat not working well and the smell of exhaust fumes. Dealer replace thermostat did not detect presence of exhaust smell.
3rd Heat working better but not great. Then see and smell exhaust fumes coming from interior vents.
Dealer had car for 3 days. Stated had car running for 1/2 hr with no smell and no fumes seen.
Has anyone had this problem? Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks Dana
I have heard of several people who have had heat problems where they either would get no heat or the opposite full blast heat. IIRC that problem is due to the temp control mixing valve getting stuck due to particles in the coolant. With 80K miles on your LS has the coolant been changed and /or the cooling system flushed?
If you're planning to keep your next LS for quite awhile and actually buy it, the '03 would be my recommendation -- the price reductions knock your socks off. If you're leasing, or buying to keep only a few years, that extra model year is a big, big deal. Go with the '04.
Either way, you'll enjoy your new car.
My dinosaur (nearly no options, and old) '00 manual is running like a top and I'm hoping to drive it well beyond 100K miles. I'm at 62K now and expect to get through the next year without significant issues. My last "Big 3" American-designed vehicle went way, way south in its fourth year, with about the same mileage my LS will acquire in the next 12 months. I'm fairly confident the LS will show its mettle, but you never know.
The shame is that the LS on the DEW98 platform will either be eliminated (by Ford beancounters) or the LS mantle will be placed on a much lesser car (by the same crowd).
Oh well. . .
Having owned a Y2K LS8 Sport, and now an almost identical ‘03, my sentiments exactly.
I bought an ‘03 this month (800 happy [s]miles! So far!) and here was my thinking:
Briefly, I saw no significant differences mechanically or cosmetically, and I looked over a couple of ‘04s and ‘03s carefully. One thing that did change was the free maint. Better deal on the ’03!!! Oh, and I believe the heated / cooled front seats are NOT standard on the ’04 Sport.
The point about leasing vs. purchase is legit. I purchased mine, and buying a “leftover” puts me in a low mileage vehicle, compared to many ‘03s sold as long as a year ago, and now with 5K 10K or more miles. When I trade, in 3 years +/-, I will likely have an average miles car.
I expect that, if you can afford either one, then either one would be a terrific choice. Nice to have that kind of choice! If you can not find an ‘03 with the options and color combo. that works for you, you can even order an ’04.
Cheers,
- Ray
Vroom, vroom . . .
The biggest change is that the #1 cross member - the cradle the radiator sits in - is stronger on the '04's. This change was made to improve NVH. The front springs and sway bar mounts are also changed again as part of the NVH improvement.
The 04 trannie has a bleed valve to make for quicker shifting into reverse.
2 new paint colors, interior colors are a little bit different, but similar to the '03's.
Starting with Dec. production the auto wipers were deleted - that is early '04's that are still on dealer lots will have the auto wipers.
The Alpine & THX audio systems have provision for Sirius satellite radio.
Complementary maintenance is only 12 mo / 12K miles instead of 36 mo / 36K miles (warranty is still 48 mo / 50K miles).
There may be a few other minor changes, but that's about it.
Leaky valve covers result in damage to the spark plug coils and some engine stuttering occurs...as was read in the engine diagnostics when my dash gave an engine warning light.
To do the gasket replacement you need either the kit of gaskets and "O" Rings or separate gaskets and "O" Rings.
As luck would have it, the kits are out of stock nation-wide.
The other pisser is that it takes some time to remove the valve covers and replace the gaskets...easily a $400.00 job if you are not under warranty.
The LS is a great car but if you are not under warranty the usual failures can cost.
The other costly issue I'm dealing with is sway bar bushing replacement....The current front-end clunking is almost unbearable. I have already replaced the right ball joint and it is highly possible that the left one is also contributing to the clunking.
I just had an engine stumble a few weeks ago, and my dealer diagnosed a slightly underperforming coil-on-plug (COP) unit. They replaced it under warranty even though it was still operating within spec. Of course, this service visit was within 2 days of going out of warranty . . .
On the bright side, there was no sign of oil contamination on the replaced COP. Also, at 40K miles, my sway bar bushings are still performing as they should (i.e., no clunking), but I imagine this is related to total miles driven.
I am contemplating doing the gaskets myself.
The oil leakage does damage to the COP units so a few of them may need to also be replaced. While I'm at it, I might as well change the plugs.
I should have gotten the extended warranty.....What was I thinking!
I might need a CTS-V to hold me over til Lincoln does it's 06 version. ;-) (I wonder what insurance will cost on that sucker??)
Slunar
You said:
<<The front springs and sway bar mounts are also changed again as part of the NVH improvement.>>
True and...
The front springs were changed to soften the ride.
The swaybars were downsized accordingly and the bushings were bonded to them to avoid the bad clunking bushing problems of past years where the bushings dried up and and and....
The service department can read it if it throws a code.
In my case the engine light confirmed what I had been feeling.
Stuttering, reduction of power etc...
In two years from now, I will be seriously considering the new SVT Mustang Cobra, as I will no longer need to accommodate a child safety seat in the back. Much of the SVT Cobra underpinnings should be along the lines of what LS enthusiasts have been clammoring for . . . minus the luxury, refinement and size of course.
Hope springs eternal that Lincoln will step up and give the Caddie folks some competition. But all the news coming out of Detroit says AWD, Continental, New Towncar?, larger DEW platform variant. And of course dragging around Mercury. (Ford’s version of Oldsmobile)
It is that” larger DEW platform variant” that intrigues some of us. But in order for Lincoln to build a hi-po LS they would have to beef up the rear end and go to a LSD, tweak the rear suspension, add big brakes, add 6 speed manual and 6 speed auto. If designed correctly they could build it into the next model change but there seems to be no real rumors with any substance. It is hard to imagine that they could do a hi-po number on the current model towards the end of it’s run. So maybe in 06 ???
Engines Wow Ford has excellent selections 4.6, Jag 4.2SC, 5.0, GT(40), V10 etc 2 valve 3 valve, 4 valve they have seemingly limitless possibilities
The irony here is that Lincoln engineering is fabulous if allowed to be creative. But they (Lincoln and its parent Ford) have yet to declare war. Darryl Hazel wants sweeping changes to create the unique brand image and reputation that Lincoln Mercury is sorely lacking. But we have not seen any evidence that Ford is behind him. Maybe we will? I sure hope so.
Bob Lutz went to GM with the understanding that decisions will be made and that he really didn't need to come out of retirement to play GM politics. So it can be argued that he is once again creating a very exciting time for the General.
At the recent LA auto show the LS was a background event. They didn't even have the new sharp-looking 04 LSE to show the vast West Coast audience. "A drivers luxury car" is the new tag line used in the new TV ads I see on the tube here. A good ad I must say!
Cadillac is doing it right.
Their products have that "DNA" thing.
Big SUV, X-over vehicle, pickup, Large Sedan, 4 door sedan and V-Series version, 2-door luxury sports car. And they are letting the leaks become much more than rumor...thus creating the ever-important buzz!
Enough and not enough.
Amen.
First you gotta wanna. Ford doesn't. Lincoln doesn't, and the nine guys within Lincoln who do (or did) have been promoted, transferred and/or ignored. Stick a fork in it.
I just think that $$ is a bigger factor than exectuve decisions.
Makes me sad, the LS is a great car I am now on my second one, with no real problems to talk about...just great performance and satisfaction; the LS grin is for real. It's unfortunate that the folks at Ford don't or won't understand that.
In the end it all comes back to $$$. The spirit is willing but the wallet is empty.
That's why I like the new Lincoln pickup. Almost no R&D costs so it will be very profitable (no blackwood comparisons please - it's totally different) and generate more cash.
We've heard conflicting stories on the demise of the LS as we know it. One anonymous person said the best (LS) is yet to come and the future is bright. However I think we also heard that 2 years ago so best to just wait and see.
Thanks again for the help. This is a great car and I hope they keep making it.
Dana
I can also agree with Allen's hypothesis about why Lincoln seems to be abandoning the LS, but it also seems to be short-sighted on Lincoln's part to squander such a world-class engineering effort that the LS represents. FMC/Lincoln-Mercury should have "found" the money to put into the LS because it is such a great vehicle, especially when compared to ANYTHING within the entire Ford Motor Company portfolio of vehicles. The LS wins on the value equation no matter how you slice it.
In the short-term, my wife and I will be buying a new ('04) Aviator very soon. Between her travel schedule, and the lack of suitably equipped Aviator anywhere near Arizona we haven't had the chance to finish a deal. Soon though.
After the Aviator though, I'm rather unsettled as to where my future car expenditures will go. All the reports say that the LS and the Aviator will go the way of the dinosaur. These have been the nearly the only vehicles I've been excited about over the past 5 years. A SVT Mustang Cobra does sound exciting, but I'd hate to give up the Lincoln refinement and creature comforts that I've grown accustomed to.
Thanks again for the help. This is a great car and I hope they keep making it.
Dana
Some details of the rumors that are floating around are:
The front suspension will change to a strut suspension similar to the 2005 Mustang in order to accomodate the 4.6L mod. motors.
Look to the MK-X and Aviator crossover concepts for exterior design clues.
AWD will be available.
6 speed auto. will be available.
But of course, mid 2006 is 2-1/2 years from now and as you know, anything can happen between now and then.
As far as the 2006 SVT Mustang goes, 500 HP, IRS and the M3 is its design target are re-occuring rumors.
I saw the Lincoln ads yesterday too. Everything but the LS. The next page had an ad by a local Lincoln dealership and it had an '04 LS V8 Sport advertised for $29,999 or $12,500 under MSRP. That's not a good combo. No LS in the Lincoln sponsored ad and huge discount in the dealer ads. I'm hoping it's simply because it's winter and their not pushing the performance RWD vehicle. Maybe the ads will be a little more favorable to the LS in the spring.
Steve, thanks for the update on rumor central. If the LS survives past '06, do you really think they'll can the unequal length A-arms in favor of struts???? Ugh. The Mustang is getting more appealing all the time . . . though I'd definitely be seeking out the SVT Cobra hardtop with IRS and all the other hi-po stuff.
However, the 2005 Mustang shown on the Cover of the Feb. '04 Car and Driver has definitely "lost something" from the initial concept/show car. Inevitable I suppose, but I'm hoping the aggressive/sporty edge will further develop in a year or two.
Thanks again for the help. This is a great car and I hope they keep making it.
Dana
As far as advertising, dealers will advertise what they can move, or discount to move, or have to move, etc. What Ford is doing with their ad dollars is probably more along the lines of what they can get the highest yield on. LS probably doesn't fit either today.
How can they move what the public is unaware of?
Advertise Town Cars > Town Cars Move > Advertise Town Cars > ...
Don't advertise LS > LS doesn't move, so no need to launch LS advertising. I must be missing something.
The LS enthusiasts have generally clamored for the stop and go power destined for the next gen Mustang, while keeping the size, ride, and handling of the current LS. Tall order? Maybe, but not impossible . . . just (highly) unlikely.
Allen, I won't disagree that the new Mustang is close to the concept car, but I still think it lost something in translation. I also imagine that the concept Mustang was styled for the Cobra buyer as opposed to the base GT buyer.
Supposedly the 3.9L V8 was going away at the end of 2005, but I read in a Lima, OH newspaper (Lima is where the 3.9 is made) that the 3.9 will still be built for some time. What "for some time" means is not defined. It could mean that it just will continue on until mid 2006 when the updated LS comes along.
The core problem with the LS is that it costs Ford too much to build it. The reason why it costs too much to build, is that the LS shares very little with any other N. American Ford vehicle, except the 2 seat T-Bird which is low volume and is going away in a year.
So the only way Ford can lower the production cost of future LS models is to make them share more basic parts with other Ford N. American models.
From everything I've heard the Ford engineers are pretty happy with the front suspension on the 2005 Mustang. It is VERY much different than the old Mustangs. It is a true McPherson strut with the coil springs around the struts like BMW uses.
The media kit releases on the Mustang talks about how the front roll center has been raised and about the coil over setup, so it appears that Ford is very much in tune with the need to improve hangling and ride comfort in the new Mustang. (Too low a front roll center and too high a rear roll center is a major problem on the present Mustang.) One of the articles from Ford even talks about how the new 05 suspension will be better for Mustang owners who change the springs and ride height, so they certainly seem to have performance in mind.
I don't know if you've seen the renderings of the 05 Mustang suspension, but the lower control arms look very sexy and somewhat like whoever did the Mustang suspension must have worked on or was influenced by the LS.
So I gues what I'm saying is that if the 2006.5 LS looses its double wishbone front suspension it's not the end of the world, after all the darling of the automotive press, BMW uses strut type front suspension.
As for a revised, McPherson strut suspension needed to "make room" for the mod motors in the LS engine bay . . . I've ridden in a LS with the 4.6 mod motor installed back in 2002. In fact, the engine had been bored to 5.0 liters and mated to a Tremec 6-speed MANUAL transmission. Of course, this was a LS test mule on the Dearborn Proving Grounds test track, but aside from larger wheels and larger, crossed-drilled disc brakes, springs and sway-bars, the car was otherwise stock. I know the current LS already has to engine bay space to accommodate the 4.6 L mod motors (though maybe not to production specifications, as rail transport issues, amongst others have a significant influence).
I'm not saying it's the end of the world here either, but McPherson struts on the LS DOES represent a backward step in evolution, IMO.
Perhaps my recollection is wrong, but when my group of enthusiasts was taken from the Dearborn Proving Grounds to go to one of Ford's CAD design centers, I could have sworn we were told that the 4.6 mod motor COULD be installed from underneath. I suppose that, in order for that to happen, the front suspension components would have to be installed AFTER the engine was installed, but we didn't get to that level of detail in the discussion . . . it was more of an overall capability overview we were presented with. The plant layout at Wixom (which I've toured twice now) probably wouldn't be flexible enough to accommodate engine installation BEFORE the lower control arms, but I'm in no position to make that assessment. In any event, I trust the Ford people know what they're talking about and are only doing what makes sense for them to do. I'm not even sure where the Mustang will be assembled.
I also agree that the Mustang based DEWlite chassis has loads of potential for the performance enthusiast . . . I'm just not sure about the potential for the Luxury Sport enthusiast, which, IMO is a very different segment.
The DOHC version may not fit.
Remember - it's not what you start with it's what you end up with that counts.
At the current OTD price for an '03, and with the current (un-subsidized) "cost of money", I agree.
- Ray
Voted with $$s . . .
ABSOLUTELY! And, as Ray points out, the price just makes better, because it's by far the best value on the road today.