You nailed it; the V-series is the first serious domestic shot aimed at the RS Audis, M BMWs, and AMG Mercedes. Even if they only sell a few thousand it will be of great benefit to Cadillac's plan to increase their international prestige.
Frankly, I couldn't care less about the European market. Especially when my $35K LS costs about $80K in some European markets! Besides which, I've had my fill of foreign cars. American for me!!
Have seen it before. Has real potential. Wonder how much pent up demand it has since the Mark 8 has been gone since 98? You almost never see one for sale on the used market.
So had the LS not been available would I have considered an S-type or S60. Well, the answer for the S60 would have been a resounding "NO" and not sure on the S-type. Problem with the S-type is a well equipped V8 model is about 10 grand or so north of an LS V8.
I was shopping recently for a Volvo S60 R AWD and unfortunately it's AWD is FWD biased which turned me off on normal launches. So I came away with my 2nd LS V8.
I didn't say that the S60 and S-Type adequately cover the mid-luxury sport segment; I said Ford THINKS they do. I seriously doubt that many real enthusiasts cross-shop the S60 against the 5er and/or the S4. With the LS, Lincoln had a substantial head start on Cadillac. With the proper advertising("Travel Well"? What a joke...) and options(350 bhp V8 and a six speed) Lincoln would OWN the domestic sport sedan market-and also be nipping at the heels of the Germans. Instead, Lincoln has to offer up to $6000 worth of rebates to move the LS; great news if you want an outstanding sport sedan for a bargain price, but not too hot for preserving resale value or the image of an exclusive vehicle in high demand. As for coupes, I LOVED my father's 1986 Mk VII LSC; attractive styling, adequate handling and lots of low rpm grunt. I even considered picking up one of those 1988 monochromatic editions for a work hack(I also checked out a used 351 five speed Roush-I think-special. Probably would have bought it had it not been on it's third MTX in 30000 miles...) For some reason, the Mk VIII leaves me cold-IMHO it lost the sporty edge of the VII. Nice car under the skin though...
"$6000 worth of rebates to move the LS; great news if you want an outstanding sport sedan for a bargain price, but not too hot for preserving resale value or the image of an exclusive vehicle in high demand." - Div2
Agreed. In fact, that is exactly what I am struggling with regarding buying an '03 LS Sport.
- Ray Trying to decide if the numbers make sense in the long term . . .
"Agreed. In fact, that is exactly what I am struggling with regarding buying an '03 LS Sport"
I don't like the fact that Lincoln needs to offer the big rebates to sell it's cars either but when considering it's effect on resale value, although you're getting less on resale you're paying less up front. Is it any different than paying sticker now and and getting more on a trade or resale later? The people who are hurt by this are those that paid something closer to sticker and will get much less later because newer models are obtainable at lower costs. If you can get a great deal on an '03 V8 you're simply paying less now even though you'll get less later, and you have a fantastic car in between.
By the way, a nearby Lincoln dealer is advertising it has several '03 V8 LSs for about $32,000 MSRP is $42,500 (roof and advance trak?) with $6k rebate and $4,500 dealer disc. Can't complain too much about lower trade ins with that.
with a little luck and wise timing. What you DON'T want to do, is buy the first one out of the chute (usually the first 6 months of availability) at sticker or beyond (like some are doing with the Nissan Titan right now) because you just GOTTA have it, and then after intro, prices drop rebates start, and when you're ready to trade, your residual is in the toilet. But if you get 7500 below MSRP going in, you'll work out fine at trade time.
I always liked the Mark VII as well as the Mark VIII myself. The VIII had a more modern suspension and engine, but I think the VII looked better and had a nicer interior or at least until they upgraded the VIII's interior for 97. Only to drop the car in 2 years. One thing I have noticed about the LS is they are starting to delete features. For 04 the rain sensing wipers were deleted. In typical Ford history, they begin deleting small but neat features from their cars in the model's final years. I hope this isn't a trend that continues over the next few years.
v8lincolnguy - when our club visiting the [non-permissible content removed]'y plant where the LS is built last summer we were told that the reason why the auto wipers were going to be deleted was that many customers did not like them and they had a lot of warranty claims from customers who said their wipers were not working right. This "problem" was apparantly even more acute with the 2003's system that does not have a conventional wiper delay feature and that's what they claimed most customer's wanted.
On the other hand, I agree with you about Ford's history of deleting nice features and then deleting the entire car. The bean counters & marketing people seem to have a habit of doing a customer poll and asking "If we deleted the auto wipers would you still buy the car." They get a YES for an answer so they conclude "we can delete the auto wipers and not loose any sales."
However they never ask the important question which is: "If we deleted the auto wipers AND deleted the cargo net AND made the auto lamps optional at extra cost AND deleted the auto dimming mirror AND delted the message center,AND kept the base price the same while making the heated seats optional AND replaced the rear disk brakes with drums AND replace the dual exhaust with single AND delted this.. AND deleted that.... would you still buy the car?"
Of course we know that once you put the whole laundry list of content delete together the answer changes to NO, I would not buy that car if you pulled all the nice features out. But the bean counters seem to fail to see this.
Just picked up one of the few remaining '03 Premium Sport models in my area for $11,600 off the MSRP of $44K. These units were moving fast; one dealer that had seven when we spoke had two the following day when we showed up to look and test drive.
Basically got everything but the heated rear seats (not a desired feature in SE Texas) and the navigation system.
Build quality seems first class, the ride is very smooth on the highway, it's easy to exceed the speed limit without realizing it; look down and what felt like sixty is actually eighty. Handling is excellent with quick turn-in and the car corners without body roll or excessive drama. Very pleased so far.
is right. One good case in point, the Taurus, which was revolutionary in its debut, changed the family sedan forever, and was a "must have" for me (I bought an 87). Today's Taurus, while not bad looking, is so much less of a car than the 87 was, I wouldn't be interested even as a company car.
Your exactly right. Not having rain sensing wipers wouldn't keep me from buying an LS, but if more and more of those "little things" you mentioned were deleted, then it probably would keep me from buying the car. One of the things that has always attracted me to Cadillacs and Lincolns has been the extra "little things" that they offer which the imports do not. Things like rain sensing wipers, automatic door locks, auto headlights, etc. When they start deleting serious hardware, then I have a big problem. Take the Taurus/Sable. I was at an auto show a year or so ago and they had a fully loaded black Mercury Sable there. It was a not a bad looking sedan and offered alot of features for the price. However, despite being the fully loaded top of the line model(with a $23K sticker) it had rear drum brakes and an ugly fixed mast antenna ruining the car's clean lines. Maybe they are trying to appeal to a customer who simply wants to brag about what his car has and does, but I'd gladly gives up an automatic climate control or even leather seats on a family sedan and have 4 wheel disc brakes. Maybe it's the car nut in me, but just knowing how drums work v discs(not even mentioning the better performance discs give you) turns me away from any car with drum brakes.
A fixed antenna doesn't bother me(less complexity than a powered unit and better reception than an antenna integated into the backlight ) but I refuse to buy any new car with drum brakes. If I'm going to pay $20K+ for 1950s technology I'll buy a 300C, MGA or TR3. I even wish my 1999 Wrangler had rear discs(and switchable ABS, as well as Torsen diffs, etc.), and I may yet retrofit it. The original Taurus was daring, unique, and a legitimate competitor to the Asian Appliances, but now it's just another dull vanilla sedan that Ford dumps on rental fleets. Yawn.
I will not buy a car today with drum rear brakes. It's why I won't consider a Durango, BTW. However I ALSO won't buy one without automatic climate control. I made that mistake once after having ATC, got a car without it, thought it wouldn't bother me. It was horribly annoying, because I'm one of those guys who sets the temp when I get the car, and never check it again, only turn it off when I want a window or sunroof open or something. I want all these toys, and like V8lincolnguy, I have stayed with the Domestics largely because they did offer auto headlights and good automatic climate control systems. (Unlike Volvo used to have, where it LOOKED like auto climate, but really, you had to have it on 65 degrees and max air to even simulate some degree of air conditioning inside).
There is a list of stuff I will not do without anymore. I know there is no manufacturer who really knows I exist, but those who decontent a car, and think we don't notice, are way wrong.
I've become spoiled to features like auto climate control and auto lights. Speaking of automatic climate controls, I think you and I are in the slim majority who actually understands how they work. What I mean by that is we don't get in the car on a hot day and turn it all the way down to 60 thinking it will cool the car quicker. My father leased a first generation Aurora several years ago and it was his first ever luxury car. In the 4 years he had the car, I don't think he ever understood the ATC. I finally asked him, do you turn the thermostat in your house down to 60 when the house gets hot? Every time I would drive the car, I'd start it up and the temp control was at 60 and the fan on low or medium-low. I like being able to set the temp and forget it(both at home and in the car). I also like how the ATCs hold the fan off until the car engine warms up on cold days. One feature I REALLY don't want to do without again is an auto dimming rearview mirrow. I think that is more of a safety feature than a "luxury" feature.
Couldn't agree with you more, V8LG. When I got my wife her first ATC, it took me a few months to convert her to the fact that it could manage her climate better than she could, if she would give it a chance. She was doing exactly what your dad was doing. But she came around. That was in 94, and she's been quite good ever since. She's still a temp-tinkerer, but at least I've convinced her that if she must override it, just bump the temp up or down a couple degrees, and let the system compensate, rather than override the fan, direction, temp and everything else you can. I do think this great feature is lost on most people I know, sadly.....
" I finally asked him, do you turn the thermostat in your house down to 60 when the house gets hot? "
You can't imagine how many times someone has told me (while the A/C is running) "I'm going to turn it down to make it cooler", after questioning them, they actually believe that pushing the mercury stick down to 60 means they'll have 60 degree air flowing out of their vents.
The gadget I enjoy the most is keyless entry. I always had a vehicle with it, but I can appreciate it since it makes entering the vehicle much easier specially when there's a downpour. I've always liked the LS' pull-style handles, over the common flap type.
Although because I'm younger, I didn't learn what a "crank window" was till in my high school years (where I stupidly pulled on the crank instead of turning it in a friends car).
I guess I represent the other point of view. I could not care less about most of these features and if it would reduce the price of the car, I would be all for it. Things I NEVER use/used on my LS or Jaguar are: auto headlights, auto climate control, and auto wipers. All are switched off. I hate the auto dimming rear view mirror as well. BTW, we have had two owners on the Jag board that had the fluid in the rear view mirror leak out. Ruined the dash, the console and the seat where it splattered. Very caustic stuff. The surfaces can't be repaired and must be replaced or reupholstered.
Features I do like are the backup warning system (but I wouldn't pay extra for it) and memory seats which I can't even get on the Jag. We got used to them on the LS and they are great. Now that I have had heated seats I love those as well and the heated and cooled seats on the LS sound really great.
This is probably why I prefer a stick shift. I hate the car deciding when to shift. As you can tell, I'm a control freak and not proud of it!!
You are going to have a tough row to hoe dealing with the majority of the people who end up with an LS.
I agree with you, by the way. I bought the simplest possible LS for myself not quite four years ago: manual with only two audio options. No rain-sensing wipers, no dual-memory seats/mirrors/what-have-you, no moonroof (that's what they call them here), no heated seats, no automatic transmission. . .no lots of things. I managed to piss off the majority of the people who drive LS's and "appreciate" this stuff over the years but, you know, I've never had any of this stuff fail. Imagine.
Anyway, I bought the car for its suspension and the Lincoln luxury reputation. I'd have preferred the V8, stripped, with only the two audio options, but it wasn't available. . .and never will be.
Bottom line is that the stuff that you and I would leave off a car is what this demographic seeks. If you want a relatively simple sports sedan that's still "nice" you're probably going to have to go elsewhere.
Either way, my car is still doing fine. If it gets through the next year without "issues," it'll have met my minimum expectations. If it makes it a few years beyond that, it'll have been golden.
Ford built a car with the mechanical "guts" of the LS but the feature content of say a Camry. Just your basic stuff like power windows and locks and decent looking alloy wheels. Instead of trying to pass mediocre FWD sedans on the buying public, I'd like to see a US automaker build a mass produced sedan with serious hardware where it counts. IMO, if Ford did this, we wouldn't be reading about Toyota overtaking them as the number 2 automaker.
As for features, I can see some people not necessarily wanting to use the auto headlights and wipers. But not using the keyless entry is just silly. BTW, I too love the LS's exterior door handles. They are not only easier to grab, but they look more upscale then the typical door handle. As for autodimming rearview mirrors leaking, that is the first report I have ever heard of such. I had an 89 Oldsmobile Touring Sedan years ago which had this feature and I never had a problem with the mirror not working or leaking.
I've had a lot of auto dimming mirrors since 1990 on my first Continental. Never had one leak, and it's damn hot in Vegas & Florida. Must have been a fluke.
I had this happen over a year ago and told everyone to get it fixed fast if you see this happening. I still have one spot on my console from that stuff. Messed up the WUD on the Ashtray/ Heated Seat Button holder on my LS. This is an issue. Albeit it a Limited one I assume.
I wasn't intimating that this problem was pervasive. My point was, if you didn't have the accessory, you wouldn't have the problem. It is not as uncommon as one would like to think.
I THINK (About 85% sure) that the LS climate control system works different from our home A/C. It can do that because of the variable blower speed.
I believe that setting it to 60 degrees will achieve a 72 degree interior temperature more quickly than setting it to 72.
Why? Because the blower speed is dependent on the difference between the set temperature and the interior temperature. As the interior temperature APPROACHES the set temperature, the blower speed is automatically, and in steps, reduced, until it reaches the set temperature at which point it goes to low.
If set at 60 degrees, the blower stays at max speed as the interior temperature approaches 72.
Why do I believe this? I've experienced it.
Despite this, I leave mine set at 72 year-around ... except for the rare extremely hot start-up, where I'll set it to 60.
Your correct in your theory that on the ATC, although I doubt those remaining few minutes of a high blower speed really make that big of a difference. When you start a car on a hot day, you want a rapid cool down. I doubt many people are going to be "hot" until the car cools to their set temp. Rather, as the cabin begins to cool down, they are going to be comfortable. And most people like to minimize the time that the fan is "roaring" on high so the systems seem to be designed to taper off as the set temp approaches. So yes, setting the temp control at 60 might cool the car to a particular degree quicker than if it were set at say 70, but it will not cool the cabin any quicker from what ever temp it was when you got in the car. This is the thing most people(including car sales people) seem to think as they will get into a hot car and turn the ATC all the way down to 60. Then once they are tired of hearing the fan roar or their knuckles are cold, they turn the fan speed down. I've also found that the systems typically don't go to "low" when the set temp is reached. they typically taper off to a medium or medium-low setting. The only time I've ever noticed mine go to what I consider a low fan speed is when I had it set at 68 and wanted things a bit warmer and raised the temp to 69 or 70.
I have a 2000 V8 non-sport that has developed noise in the rear-end. Sounds like excessive road noise, maybe a bit of a roar. It shouldn't be the tires based on mileage and type (Michelin MXV4's). Anyone know how to distinguish between true rear-end problem, tires or other?
I just came from Blue Oval News which had a long story from AUTOMOTIVE NEWS regarding Lincoln. I kid you not, it is very disturbing. Note what I just said: this is not Blue Oval sour grapes; this an article from a trade journal.
One thing I perceived is that the "volume" types are walking around the Ford line-up with a pocket full of Lincoln logos to re-badge everything in sight. Heritage, prestige, cache, premium, luxury, are all expendable. Read and report back what you think.
Swap the tires and see if the noise follows. If not it could be a simple wheel bearing. I had a tire that got punctured and repaired but the belts were messed up and it was very loud. Start there.
I can understand wanting to shift your own gears but please explain why you wouldn't want the lights to come on automatically when it gets dark or the wipers and lights to come on automatically when it rains?
If you use a thermostat at home why don't you use the one in the car? Principle is exactly the same. I NEVER take mine off auto - I just adjust the requested temperature.
Not flaming - I just don't understand the issue. Same thing with turning off the A/C every time. I can't even tell it's on anyway.
I just want to correct the misconception that automotive ATC works like our home A/C. It doesn't.
Would you clarify the following, please?
"... So yes, setting the temp control at 60 might cool the car to a particular degree quicker than if it were set at say 70, but it will not cool the cabin any quicker from what ever temp it was when you got in the car."
My '92 Continental has the ATC system that has an AUTO setting and also has a button for "Max A/C." From what I understand, when you dial the temp down to 60 in the LS - that this is the new version of "Max A/C." The blower speed goes to full and I believe the air circulation mode goes to re-circulate instead of the outside mix that the typical A/C temp setting would use. I'm not sure if it changes the compressor on/off timing - if that would assist in cooling.
I also know that the 92 Conti has a Sun-Load sensor (I think the LS does, too.) This also may play a role in how the A/C system works, too.
"I understand that cars have a variable speed blower but both allow you to set and maintain a desired temperature. What else is so different?"
Maybe nothing else ... now. At one time, A/C output was regulated by throttling the refrigerant flow. I don't know whether that is done anymore. If not, then the compressor clutch cycling on the car is analogous to the home thermostat cycling the compressor.
Yes, according to the OM when you select 65-85 degrees in auto mode it will heat or cool accordingly. But if you select 60 degrees it will go into "Maximum cooling" mode where the temp is coldest and the fan is on high and it will stay there indefinitely. Same is true for heating if you put it on 90. I notice a difference in fan speed between 60 and 65 in the summer. So putting it on 60 should cool the car down quicker than 65 or some other higher setting.
to Allen's earlier question having to do with why anyone wouldn't want automatic headlights & windshield wipers. . .
As to windshield wipers, I live in a desert and don't wish to pay a significant premium for my windshield replacement when (not if, but when) it's hammered by yet another rock here in the growing, always under construction, metropolis that everyone else seems to enjoy so much.
The headlights I'm not so sure about. I have (along with every other LS possessor) the auto feature, and I'm sure it's reliable and doesn't cause reliability issues or maintainability cost.
Yet, I keep it on manual. Why? Well, when I turn my lights off in a parking lot, or in my garage, they go off. If I drive into a tunnel (which doesn't happen here in AZ, but I do travel), the lights come on when I want them to. Perhaps I'm a control freak, or the true Luddite.
I actually drove a British sports car (back in the '60's, when Lucas was afoot) over 100K miles, so probably share more than I'd wish to with people who scoffed at roll-up (or down) windows (sidescreens) in the '50's.
Point being (yes, there is one) that the original LS had enough real substance to attract even people like myself. Many here would question whether that was a good thing.
A car A/C unit not only varies the blower speed, but they vary the temperature of the cooling air too. These days air temperature control is no longer controled by the refrigerant fluid flow. It is usually adjusted by blending cooled air from the evaporator coil with heated air from the heater coil.
But with that said, with a climate control system like the LS (& I'm sure many other cars also have) there is little need to dink with the A/C controls. The climate control automatically adjusts both the fan speed and the cooled air temperature to cool down your LS fast when it is hot and then continuously blow cooled air of the appropriate temperature to keep your car at the temperature you have selected w/o freezing parts of your body with overly cold air as would happen if the A/C cycled on and off.
Steve - that's a good reason not to order automatic wipers but once you have them you're stuck with the windshield whether you use them or not.
I agree about not wanting to add complexity or expense if you don't want a feature. But once you have it I don't understand not using it. It's not like you'll wear it out.
I didn't realize my remark about ATCs would spark such discussion. I've had 3 cars with ATC and every house I've lived in since I was 10 years old had central heat and air so I know that the two don't work EXACTLY the same. Home systems are either on or off. Car systems have vaiable speed and temp. My original point was, for those people(like my father) who get into a car with ATC on a hot day and turn the temp control down as far as it goes are doing the same thing as going into their home on a hot day and turning the thermostat all the way down. When the car is hot, regardless of whether the ATC is set at 60 or 72, it will turn the system on max A/C. Now, as the cabin temp nears the set temp, the fan may taper off a bit. The system, however, should not begin to warm the air any until after the cabin temp has fallen below the setpoint. I haven't done any real testing but I doubt that setting the ATC to 60 will actually cool the car to say 70 degrees much quicker than it would if the control was set at 70. Maybe when the weather gets hot again, we can test the theory:) What I stated in the last post was that when you get into a hot car on a summer day, you want it cool! Whether that cool is 68 degrees or 75 degees, the fact is that either one is going to feel cool. So if it takes a couple more minutes to reach actual 70 degrees with the ATC set at 70(and the fan slowing down as it nears that temp) than it would have if you turned it down to 60(leaving the fan at full speed), I doubt many people will notice as the car is going to feel cooler. Clear as mud? And if you spent too long out in the sun and 70 suddenly isn't cool enough for you, bump it down to 68 or so. Again, same way you would at home if you were hot with the thermostat at your regular setting. BTW, with the temps supposed to be in the teens tomorrow night, it sure is nice talking about A/C weather.
I think a person just has to get comfortable with the extra "auto" features on a car. When my father first got his Aurora, not only did he not understand the automatic climate control, but he hated the automatic door locks and did not trust the auto delay-out headlights one bit. Finally after about 3 years when he realized that the lights never failed to turn off, he began to warm up to them a bit. Then one day my mother drove the car and turned the lights on manually and then thinking they went off automatically(despite the "bong bong bong" when she opened the door) she left the car with them on and next day the battery was dead. And then my dad quit trusting the automatic lights again.
Speaking of automatic lights and wipers, I wish Lincoln had a wiper activated headlight feature. I think nearly all states require you to turn your lights on when it's raining(it's a good idea to anyway) and sometimes it is bright enough in the day that the lights do not come on in the rain. Cadillac has had such a feature since the mid 90s and I think the Mark VIIIs had this feature after the 97 update.
Meaning: I need an automatic trans., for several reasons. But I enjoy the man-u-matic that I have now, and had on my Y2K LS8 Sport. I have ATC, but typically I run it in ‘manual’ mode.
I think it is critical that all auto manufacturers address the issue of choice. More so than now.
With electronic systems now so pervasive – there is the option / choice to offer amazing flexibility to tailor the car behavior to the individual.
For the LS, in SST for instance: [for driver 1, ID by remote / key] Want the trans. to allow the engine to bump off the rev limiter and not upshift – press 1. Want the trans. to upshift at redline instead – press 2.
Want the trans. to upshift when shift lever is moved forward [default behavior] - press 1. Prefer the trans. to upshift when the shift lever if moved to the rear (I believe BMW and others have selected this) – press 2.
(We are really only talking about interpretation of various electronic signals here – why not allow us choice?)
Always start in 2nd (or even 3rd gear) for Winter driving – press 1. Next Spring: resume default / always start in 1st gear – press 2.
Want the headlights to come on with the wipers – press 1.
Etc. Etc.
Let us select. Let us make the choice and tailor the vehicle behavior to us – not the reverse . . .
Just my $.021251291 (precisely adjusted for inflation)
- Ray Preferring to have the car adjust to me (where it makes sense) rather than me adjust to the car . . .
My son was seven when I got my Wrangler; he thought it was really cool that you used a crank to raise/lower the windows. OTOH, he thinks that a car WITHOUT a manual transmission is weird, since that's about all I drive. Now, what REALLY impressed him was the X5 4.6is I borrowed from NA's press fleet for a couple of weeks back when he was in First Grade-div jr. thought that the NAV system and the power reclining/heated rear seats were straight out of Q's arsenal. He actually cried the day I had to return it.
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As for coupes, I LOVED my father's 1986 Mk VII LSC; attractive styling, adequate handling and lots of low rpm grunt. I even considered picking up one of those 1988 monochromatic editions for a work hack(I also checked out a used 351 five speed Roush-I think-special. Probably would have bought it had it not been on it's third MTX in 30000 miles...) For some reason, the Mk VIII leaves me cold-IMHO it lost the sporty edge of the VII. Nice car under the skin though...
Agreed. In fact, that is exactly what I am struggling with regarding buying an '03 LS Sport.
- Ray
Trying to decide if the numbers make sense in the long term . . .
I don't like the fact that Lincoln needs to offer the big rebates to sell it's cars either but when considering it's effect on resale value, although you're getting less on resale you're paying less up front. Is it any different than paying sticker now and and getting more on a trade or resale later? The people who are hurt by this are those that paid something closer to sticker and will get much less later because newer models are obtainable at lower costs. If you can get a great deal on an '03 V8 you're simply paying less now even though you'll get less later, and you have a fantastic car in between.
By the way, a nearby Lincoln dealer is advertising it has several '03 V8 LSs for about $32,000 MSRP is $42,500 (roof and advance trak?) with $6k rebate and $4,500 dealer disc. Can't complain too much about lower trade ins with that.
On the other hand, I agree with you about Ford's history of deleting nice features and then deleting the entire car. The bean counters & marketing people seem to have a habit of doing a customer poll and asking "If we deleted the auto wipers would you still buy the car." They get a YES for an answer so they conclude "we can delete the auto wipers and not loose any sales."
However they never ask the important question which is: "If we deleted the auto wipers AND deleted the cargo net AND made the auto lamps optional at extra cost AND deleted the auto dimming mirror AND delted the message center,AND kept the base price the same while making the heated seats optional AND replaced the rear disk brakes with drums AND replace the dual exhaust with single AND delted this.. AND deleted that.... would you still buy the car?"
Of course we know that once you put the whole laundry list of content delete together the answer changes to NO, I would not buy that car if you pulled all the nice features out. But the bean counters seem to fail to see this.
Basically got everything but the heated rear seats (not a desired feature in SE Texas) and the navigation system.
Build quality seems first class, the ride is very smooth on the highway, it's easy to exceed the speed limit without realizing it; look down and what felt like sixty is actually eighty. Handling is excellent with quick turn-in and the car corners without body roll or excessive drama. Very pleased so far.
Anyway, Happy New Year folks.
There is a list of stuff I will not do without anymore. I know there is no manufacturer who really knows I exist, but those who decontent a car, and think we don't notice, are way wrong.
You can't imagine how many times someone has told me (while the A/C is running) "I'm going to turn it down to make it cooler", after questioning them, they actually believe that pushing the mercury stick down to 60 means they'll have 60 degree air flowing out of their vents.
The gadget I enjoy the most is keyless entry. I always had a vehicle with it, but I can appreciate it since it makes entering the vehicle much easier specially when there's a downpour. I've always liked the LS' pull-style handles, over the common flap type.
Although because I'm younger, I didn't learn what a "crank window" was till in my high school years (where I stupidly pulled on the crank instead of turning it in a friends car).
The LS door handles have one additional benefit...safety. This is the easiest style door handles for rescue crews to open after an accident.
Features I do like are the backup warning system (but I wouldn't pay extra for it) and memory seats which I can't even get on the Jag. We got used to them on the LS and they are great. Now that I have had heated seats I love those as well and the heated and cooled seats on the LS sound really great.
This is probably why I prefer a stick shift. I hate the car deciding when to shift. As you can tell, I'm a control freak and not proud of it!!
I agree with you, by the way. I bought the simplest possible LS for myself not quite four years ago: manual with only two audio options. No rain-sensing wipers, no dual-memory seats/mirrors/what-have-you, no moonroof (that's what they call them here), no heated seats, no automatic transmission. . .no lots of things. I managed to piss off the majority of the people who drive LS's and "appreciate" this stuff over the years but, you know, I've never had any of this stuff fail. Imagine.
Anyway, I bought the car for its suspension and the Lincoln luxury reputation. I'd have preferred the V8, stripped, with only the two audio options, but it wasn't available. . .and never will be.
Bottom line is that the stuff that you and I would leave off a car is what this demographic seeks. If you want a relatively simple sports sedan that's still "nice" you're probably going to have to go elsewhere.
Either way, my car is still doing fine. If it gets through the next year without "issues," it'll have met my minimum expectations. If it makes it a few years beyond that, it'll have been golden.
It's a pity I won't be able to buy another.
As for features, I can see some people not necessarily wanting to use the auto headlights and wipers. But not using the keyless entry is just silly. BTW, I too love the LS's exterior door handles. They are not only easier to grab, but they look more upscale then the typical door handle. As for autodimming rearview mirrors leaking, that is the first report I have ever heard of such. I had an 89 Oldsmobile Touring Sedan years ago which had this feature and I never had a problem with the mirror not working or leaking.
This is an issue. Albeit it a Limited one I assume.
I believe that setting it to 60 degrees will achieve a 72 degree interior temperature more quickly than setting it to 72.
Why? Because the blower speed is dependent on the difference between the set temperature and the interior temperature. As the interior temperature APPROACHES the set temperature, the blower speed is automatically, and in steps, reduced, until it reaches the set temperature at which point it goes to low.
If set at 60 degrees, the blower stays at max speed as the interior temperature approaches 72.
Why do I believe this? I've experienced it.
Despite this, I leave mine set at 72 year-around ... except for the rare extremely hot start-up, where I'll set it to 60.
One thing I perceived is that the "volume" types are walking around the Ford line-up with a pocket full of Lincoln logos to re-badge everything in sight. Heritage, prestige, cache, premium, luxury, are all expendable. Read and report back what you think.
If you use a thermostat at home why don't you use the one in the car? Principle is exactly the same. I NEVER take mine off auto - I just adjust the requested temperature.
Not flaming - I just don't understand the issue. Same thing with turning off the A/C every time. I can't even tell it's on anyway.
Would you clarify the following, please?
"... So yes, setting the temp control at 60 might cool the car to a particular degree quicker than if it were set at say 70, but it will not cool the cabin any quicker from what ever temp it was when you got in the car."
I understand that cars have a variable speed blower but both allow you to set and maintain a desired temperature. What else is so different?
I also know that the 92 Conti has a Sun-Load sensor (I think the LS does, too.) This also may play a role in how the A/C system works, too.
"I understand that cars have a variable speed blower but both allow you to set and maintain a desired temperature. What else is so different?"
Maybe nothing else ... now. At one time, A/C output was regulated by throttling the refrigerant flow. I don't know whether that is done anymore. If not, then the compressor clutch cycling on the car is analogous to the home thermostat cycling the compressor.
As to windshield wipers, I live in a desert and don't wish to pay a significant premium for my windshield replacement when (not if, but when) it's hammered by yet another rock here in the growing, always under construction, metropolis that everyone else seems to enjoy so much.
The headlights I'm not so sure about. I have (along with every other LS possessor) the auto feature, and I'm sure it's reliable and doesn't cause reliability issues or maintainability cost.
Yet, I keep it on manual. Why? Well, when I turn my lights off in a parking lot, or in my garage, they go off. If I drive into a tunnel (which doesn't happen here in AZ, but I do travel), the lights come on when I want them to. Perhaps I'm a control freak, or the true Luddite.
I actually drove a British sports car (back in the '60's, when Lucas was afoot) over 100K miles, so probably share more than I'd wish to with people who scoffed at roll-up (or down) windows (sidescreens) in the '50's.
Point being (yes, there is one) that the original LS had enough real substance to attract even people like myself. Many here would question whether that was a good thing.
Either way, it's now moot.
But with that said, with a climate control system like the LS (& I'm sure many other cars also have) there is little need to dink with the A/C controls. The climate control automatically adjusts both the fan speed and the cooled air temperature to cool down your LS fast when it is hot and then continuously blow cooled air of the appropriate temperature to keep your car at the temperature you have selected w/o freezing parts of your body with overly cold air as would happen if the A/C cycled on and off.
I agree about not wanting to add complexity or expense if you don't want a feature. But once you have it I don't understand not using it. It's not like you'll wear it out.
To each his own I guess.
Speaking of automatic lights and wipers, I wish Lincoln had a wiper activated headlight feature. I think nearly all states require you to turn your lights on when it's raining(it's a good idea to anyway) and sometimes it is bright enough in the day that the lights do not come on in the rain. Cadillac has had such a feature since the mid 90s and I think the Mark VIIIs had this feature after the 97 update.
The '03 LS headlights activate shortly after the wipers are activated.
I prefer to have the choice.
Meaning: I need an automatic trans., for several reasons. But I enjoy the man-u-matic that I have now, and had on my Y2K LS8 Sport. I have ATC, but typically I run it in ‘manual’ mode.
I think it is critical that all auto manufacturers address the issue of choice. More so than now.
With electronic systems now so pervasive – there is the option / choice to offer amazing flexibility to tailor the car behavior to the individual.
For the LS, in SST for instance: [for driver 1, ID by remote / key] Want the trans. to allow the engine to bump off the rev limiter and not upshift – press 1. Want the trans. to upshift at redline instead – press 2.
Want the trans. to upshift when shift lever is moved forward [default behavior] - press 1. Prefer the trans. to upshift when the shift lever if moved to the rear (I believe BMW and others have selected this) – press 2.
(We are really only talking about interpretation of various electronic signals here – why not allow us choice?)
Always start in 2nd (or even 3rd gear) for Winter driving – press 1. Next Spring: resume default / always start in 1st gear – press 2.
Want the headlights to come on with the wipers – press 1.
Etc.
Etc.
Let us select. Let us make the choice and tailor the vehicle behavior to us – not the reverse . . .
Just my $.021251291 (precisely adjusted for inflation)
- Ray
Preferring to have the car adjust to me (where it makes sense) rather than me adjust to the car . . .
I actually had to teach my kids how to roll down a window and manually lock the doors since they had never seen it before !!!
They were also amazed that I have to "change gears".