Sorry, but your dealer advisor is an imbecile. From the Tire Rack FAQ:
<Today's winter tires are better at providing ice and snow traction than ever before. The technology used to develop the tread designs and tread compounds has evolved beyond what you may have used previously. Every one of our tire manufacturers and 7 out of 10 vehicle manufacturers recommend four winter tires be used on rear wheel, front wheel or four wheel drive vehicles. This is because if you use two dissimilar types of tires on your vehicle, you'll have a vehicle that has a "split" personality. One end of the vehicle won't react and perform the same as the other in the dry, wet, slush and snow conditions you'll encounter before the end of winter. Especially in emergency situations, you'll find that your vehicle will probably understeer in one condition and oversteer in another. It is preferable to keep your vehicles handling as consistently as possible by "matching" all four tires. Our customers who have matched their tires tell us they're glad they made the extra investment in four winter tires (and wheels) so they can accelerate, brake, handle and better control their vehicle through winter's challenges.>
I'm assuming that you bought an LS in large part due to it's exceptional handling capability. Don't compromise your safety by trying to save a few dollars. And find a dealer who doesn't need a proctologist to find his head...
...I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm going into the 3rd winter with my LS. 16" Dunlop Graspics all the way around. So far, so good, and I live in the "snow belt".
Well put Leadfoot. I would rather spend the extra $200 at most for the other two tires than end up in the ditch. Thats a serious cost. Besides I am sure the Snow Tires will last at least a couple of years if not more. Your half way their might as well do it right and have no regrets.
Besides, you wouldn't want to be known as the first Schizo LS handling wise right? You don't want your tail-end acting differently than you head-right?
Thanks very much. That's why I asked the question here. The dealer only had 2 Blizzaks in stock anyway, so I will schedule for the other two when it goes in for service in a couple of weeks.
I have a few suggestions for future Lincoln LS possibilities. Here goes:
Bring back the Continental. Stay close to the overall design of the concept car. Call it the "Continental LS". As it looks like the current LS's dad. I think more of our elders who drove during the 60's and 70's would find a resemblance to the longer, boxier cars of that era. Not to mention I would buy a longer wheelbase version of the LS and I am only 29.
Create a Wagon version of the LS. Yes you heard me correct "Wagon". Take cues from Dodge with their "Magnum" concept. Throw in some of the Volvo wagon designs. There are a lot of people in the market for a "not a mini van or SUV" wagon. Call it the "Discovery LS" or "The LS Traveler". Then get the discovery channel to help promote the vehicle to soccer moms and eco friendly drivers that wouldn't drive an SUV. Hell I might even buy it.
Lastly, I never felt the desire to own a mustang. Just never appealed to me. But the 2005 Stang may change my mine if I am ever in the market for a 2 door. Lets bring some of those more rounded designs into the LS for the new version. One last request... Suicide doors! I don't care if you were stepping out of a Taurus. Suicide doors look sexy on a car! PS. keep the name "LS" or add some numbers to it like " LS90". If imports can do it so can Lincoln.
For now I will continue to be romanced by the current version of the LS ;-)
I saw the Navicross at the Motor Trend show last week, ANT. Great interior!!! Little undecided on the body design, and I wouldn't quite call it a wagon, but clearly, it's a "car SUV" crossover. As a concept car, it's amazing! Loved the "Lincoln" brand tires on it......
Yes it's a bastardized vehicle alright. It's one of those "Is it a station wagon, an SUV, or what?" So "What?" category is now called "Cross-over". The Navi-Cross concept WILL make production. Except for a few details that obviously won't make it.
LIke maybe that slick power triple folding rear trunk hatch gismo? That thing must have about 25 servos to make it work! Also, I expect the glitzy pedals and interior lighting won't quite be the same. LOVED the dash, any chance that may make it into production?
I actually hope the front end gets redesigned a bit. It's too blunt for me
Originally the LS was called the LS8 and the LS6. Lexus said it sounded too much like their LS400 and Lincoln agreed to change the name. Toyota was going to call their pickup the T150 and agreed to call it the Tundra in return.
While we're Lincoln dreaming, how about an LS based coupe called the Mark IX. I've been reading some reviews of the upcoming BMW 6 series and while I'm not a big Bimmer fan at all, the 6 intrigues me. It's price is a bit steep though. To me, a coupe based on the LS makes perfect sense. Yeah, it probably won't sell more than 20K copies a year, but would give Lincoln another vehicle impressive vehcile in their corral.
Your idea makes way too much sense for the current powers that be at Ford, even though they pioneered the "sporty coupe derived from plebian sedan" concept with the Mustang. I had a 1988 M6 and while it looked gorgeous and had near-exotic performance(0-60 in under six seconds, top speed of 155 mph) 99% of the hard parts were from the 5er. L-M could have a slick "halo car" for a minimal development cost. A bit OT: The car with the absolute best performance to dollar ratio is currently the Mustang Mach 1. You can pick one up a 2003 for under $24000 if you use the X-Plan and combine it with the current $4000 rebate. A couple of bone stock Machs have run the 1/4 mile in under 13 seconds. Me want...
Depends on what you're looking for. Straight line the Mach 1 is hard to beat for the dollar but put it on a road course next to the LS and you'll see a totally different story. Our Dallas club has run a road course against these cars in the past and while they will leave an LS sitting on the straights we can outbrake and out corner them every time. We also have a member that in a stock LS has outrun an M3 on the same course. In this case it was a novice M3 driver against an experienced LS driver however. Add the fact that I've driven 1400 miles in one day in the LS and come away refreshed speaks volumes to what we've got under the skin.
While I don't go out looking for races in my LS, I guess I do get a bit frisky at times. One night while on a stretch of highway with little traffic I noticed a BMW closing in on me(I could tell it was a BMW by the headlights). I decided it was time to wake the engine up and get it out of OD so I kicked it down a gear. While keeping a keen eye on the road ahead and an occasional glance in the rearview mirror, I didn't realize that I was doing in excess of 100 MPH. Other than a very slight tire vibration that starts to appear around 80 MPH or so, the LS is super solid at speed. So I finally slow down as we approached some traffic and the Bimmer did likewise. As we got back into an area of little traffic I nailed it and I guess he did to. Unfortunately, he was able to overtake me at that point. However, as he passed me I noticed the rear of his 5 series said "M5" on it. No wonder he was able to blow by me. Still, I was pretty impressed that my Lincoln was able to hang as well as it did with an M5. I had guessed it was just another run of the mill 5 series.
While we're talking about Lincolns that just make too good sense for Ford management to consider, I still think an "SVT-like" LS would be perfect to go up against Cadillac's CTS-V as well as the M5 and MB E-class AMG tweaked models.
These Halo cars are great ideas guys, and it's fun to dream. But they have to make some money soon, or Bill Ford will be learning Japanese, as Mazda takes over Ford. They could never recoup the development costs even on a refreshed coupe if they only sold 20K per year.
Well, I've already got a sport sedan and a track rat, so the Mach would be the musclecar I never had(not counting my modded M6). Still, don't dismiss the Mach lightly; it is much, much quicker than a GT, and the handling is nicely dialed in for a car with a live rear axle. OTOH, an EVO RS for a few grand more is tempting as well...
div2 - As an owner of a 2001 Mustang GT, I would love to have a 2004 Mach 1.
However, current Mustangs are not good handling cars. Yes with their big tires and well selected springs & shocks you can make them go around a skidpad pretty fast and pull over .84g.
But the Mustang has several major flaws, since it still has a lot of things in it handed down from a 1979 Fairmont. If you want a car that is a throwback to the old days, then present generation Mustang is for you. Yes its probably the muscle car you never had. But:
The front roll center is very low. The rear roll center is very high. Under high lateral cornering loads, the rear upper trailing arms bind. It is noise heavy with a short wheelbase.
Put this all together and it makes for one mother of a twitchy car that can't handle transitions from left to right turns without wanting to wag its tail all over the place.
This is why you can find loads of suspension upgrades, such as Panhard bar conversions (gets rid of the upper control arms, 5 link conversions, etc.
Yes the Mach 1 is a pretty darned good straight line car (a good driver & a 5 Speed Mach 1 can turn low 13's bone stock), but I advise you not to try to take on Chartrand and his LS on a road course.
Like I said, I already have a sports sedan and a track rat, the Mach would probably never see the track(unless I really wanted to stir up the Instructor Sessions<g>). FWIW, I prefer light(<3000 lbs.)and nimble cars on the track. the 310 hp M6 was fun on the street but you felt the effects of it's 3600+ lb. weight on every corner. My ti is much more fun on the track, and when it gets an Eaton supercharger and custom Conforti software in a year or so it will be just about perfect-for me anyway.
I bought a set (4) of Dunlop Winter Sport M3, 245/45R17 snow tires from TireRack.com, week before last. I got them the day before our Huge Northeaster snow storm (I live near Boston, MA.) I had them mounted and balanced at my Lincoln Dealer the morning of the storm, while the storm was in progress. They are the best High Performance snow tire, according too TireRack.com. They tested them against other HP snow tires under all conditions including on an Ice Rink (Last Winter 2003.) I'm am very pleased with them under all conditions, Dry, Snow, Rain, Ice and Black ice.I can't tell the difference between them and the stock HP All Season Michelin tires (235/50R17) that came with the car, except the excellent snow and ice handling. The ice compound isn't quite as sticky as a Blizzak tire (supposedly) but it is used through the whole thickness of the tread, not 50% like the Blizzaks and the dry and wet handling performance is superior. The Wintersport M3s' are quiet too, the quietest snow tires I have ever owned. I have had Blizzaks on my past cars. I paid $145.00 per tire plus $50.00 total for Fedex two day shipping, no sales tax. I called five local tire stores and the cheapest I found was $205.00 plus 5% sales tax per tire, none had them in stock. It cost me $52.00 at my Lincoln Dealer to breakdown, mount and balance the tires. I lease my LS V6 Sport, so I only trust the dealer to work on the car, that way it's on them if any problems, no finger pointing. The best price the dealer could give me on the tires was $205.00. The service dept. is aware of TireRack, as other customers have purchased tires from TireRack, without any problems. They agreed purchasing from TireRack was a wise move considering the price difference. The 245/45R17 is a recommended tire size, listed inside the door of the LS so it conforms to Lincoln's requirements, no warranty problems. If you need or want a great HP 17" snow tire check them out, you won't be disappointed.
. . . at least here in the Atlanta area. Has my attention. Now I need to make time to actually visit a dealer . . . - Ray Who sees now that a local dealer has one with the same color (autumn red / gray) and essentially the same equipment (+ over 500 changes) as my '00 - hmmm . . .
Well – as owner of one initially listed as a ‘maybe’ (a 2002 Passat W8 w/tip - non-Sport, as that package was not available at the time of purchase) – and in the market (maybe) again, here are my thoughts:
FWIW, I have again recently surveyed the sports sedan market as my current ride approaches 23,000 miles at about 20 months.
I traded a Y2K Lincoln LS on my Passat at about 38,000 miles. This has been an interesting ownership experience, and I appreciate the AWD (even though it rarely snows here in North Georgia – it does rain) and the W8 motor and the Tip works reasonably well. It even has a ‘kickdown switch’ pushing past this switch under the accelerator allows downshift (to the lowest gear that will not cause an over-rev) without touching the gearshift when in manual shift / ‘Tip’ mode. Very cool.
I have driven current versions of most sport sedans in the $30 – 45K range. I was even invited to ‘beat on’ the new BMW 530i Sports last Fall at Road Atlanta. Fun, but the exterior and interior styling are just NOT to my taste.
Anyway – I am coming back to the ‘new and improved’ Lincoln LS as the top contender. As I said, I have previously owned one, and I certainly enjoyed the car in many respects. And they have effectively addressed nearly every criticism I had of the Y2K car.
Given the fact that an equivalent 2004 is a bit more expensive, even before end-of-model-year discounting and cash back of $6K, and has no enhancements of interest to me, a 2003 for something like $32 - $33K (V8 Sport w/moonroof – list: $41,860 w/destination but before Tax, etc.) looks like a screaming bargain – for me.
Cheers, - Ray Trying to find time to visit a local dealer . .
Yes Ray left over 2003 LS's are a real bargain. In addition, if you have property taxes, they will be less on the 2003 and insurance will probably be a bit less too.
If a 2004 was the same price as a 2003, I'd take the 2004 because of its several minor inprovements and that it has been sitting around on the dealer's lot for a lot shorter time than a 2004.
However if it was one of the latest 2004's that no longer has the rain sensitive wipers I'd have second thoughts. The rain sensitive wipers on my 2003 LS work great. They are significantly improved from the 2000 LS I had.
I can't make any comparisons to your Passat, but I like my 2003 LS a lot more than the 2000. All but a couple of the gripes I had with the 2000 were fixed on the 2003 and the engine has the low end grunt that was missing in the 2000's.
I drove the W8 Passat (as well as may other sport sedans) before finally deciding on the LS. I haven't regretted my decision at all. I did really like the W8 but two things held me up on that one. 1) I had the mental block of paying that much for a VW and 2)it looks way too much like a $20k Passat. VW needs to jazz it up a bit so you know what it has. Kind of like how you always know a 540i from the lesser 5 series. One other hang up I have on Vdubs is this: If you happen to notice a car on the road at night that has one head light out, I would bet you that at least half of them are VWs. Maybe I'm way off the mark here but it looks like they can't get the electrical thing right. (I've owned 2 VWs in the past). I've been very happy with my '03 V8 sport so far. It's a great car.
gschwartz, I wish I had inquired about the X plan before I bought. I used to have a Z plan PIN but lost it over a year ago due to a death in the family. It's largely responsible why my last 5 cars have been Ford products. Oh well.
is that the action here is pretty representative of the enthusiast's level of interest in the LS.
The vast majority of the people who end up driving an LS do it for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with its capability to compete reasonably well with the BMW 5.
I've bored or upset most of the old-timers on this board (most of whom have moved to an un-named other place) with the following riff. Since you asked:
The LS was introduced in '99 as a legitimate competitor to the BMW 5. It was available with a manual (at least with the 6) and was designed to be marketed in Europe (had a hole in the front bumper for the required tow hook, etc.), with a future diesel (probably turbodiesel -- sign me up). With the COTY in Nov of '99 and the Consumers' Report rave, many thought the LS was the answer in terms of an American luxo-sports sedan. Recall that all of this was prior to the Cadillac and Nissan competition.
Anyway, time passed, and the ball was dropped. The original concept was that the manual would be added to the V8 at about the time it was eliminated altogether. The innovative advertising that we saw in '99 faded away, and anyone who knew anything about the LS probably figured it out on-site at the dealer. Then, to top it off, Ford management bought Volvo and decided that marketing the Lincoln in Europe was a bad idea.
Anyway, let's consider those Lincoln dealers. Are they enthusiastic about supporting a new direction for Lincoln -- toward competing with BMW, Audi and Lexus performance vehicles, or are they more comfortable continuing to sell Town Cars to the silver-haired? If you don't know the answer, you didn't have the pleasure of trying to buy a manual LS in January of 2000. I did. These people would rather be skinned alive than sell performance cars. They'll sell the high-margin trucks, but an LS? A manual transmission? We don't need no stinkin' manual transmissions. . .and neither do you.
Now let's look at what Lincoln did (besides not advertising & gutting the European plan) with the LS. Well, they discontinued the manual, which is a topic (among others) about which I've been adequately vociferous to get me thrown off another LS board. They not only didn't put it on the V8, they eliminated it from the V6 as well.
Why, you might ask. Well, the answer is demographics. The typical Lincoln driver could give a rip less about manual transmission availability. . .or the quality of the LS suspension. . .or the fact that the LS can do ten consecutive stops from 100 mph without degrading the brakes. . .or that the car is extremely attractive to younger people (I can vouch for this), or much of anything else that appeals to true sports sedan people.
Most dealers appear to position the LS as a smaller alternative to the Town Car -- it's easier to park and less expensive (at sticker, which many of the Lincoln faithful actually believe). I'd venture to guess that 95% of the Lincoln dealerships have absolutely no clue that it's a performance car.
Their customers can't be expected to be any better.
Having been around as long as you and knowing what was going on in the first days of the LS, I agree with your analogy 100%. I can't really fault Lincoln however since less than 3% of their sales were manuals. Would they have sold more manuals if they had advertised them more? Would they have sold more manuals if the dealers would have stocked them? Maybe a few but I would bet that the total would still be under 5%. Not enough to continue making them for the few enthusiasts who loved them.
I unfortunately agree with your take on this. I'm 38 and new to Lincoln and the more I drive this car the more I realize how great it is. Although I knew about the LS, I never really considered one until I started looking into getting a sports sedan and began following this board. I looked at the CTS very closely but when it came time to decide, the LS seemed a better car and a better value with incentives. It bugs me to see an LS driving around and it's almost always an older person (usually female) who has no clue as to it's performance (no offense to the older following here). Don't get me wrong, you want to see all demographics driving the cars, in fact we need them to keep the LS going, I just wish there were more LS owners who can appreciate the car for what is.
Lincoln had a golden opportunity to really market this car and create momentum for the Lincoln brand but as you said they dropped the ball. The decision makers at Lincoln must be owners of Town cars who don't mind watching Cadillac take off (and take marketshare). You have to give Caddy credit with what they're doing in attracting the younger following. I tend to see more males driving the CTS than the LS and younger ones too. I have to believe we're all a little envious of Caddy and wish Lincoln would step up.
I don't disagree with you Rich. No question, Nasser stalled this movement out with his "redirection" at Ford, and Lincoln has lumbered along with no real direction other than SUVs now for 4 years. Right now, I can't tell what the division is! There's nothing new on the near horizon either. The future of the LS is uncertain at the moment, and it is a truly underrated car by most. There are terrific buys out there on slightly used ones that have been grandma'ed around for a year or two. The manual? I could care less myself, but I'm 50. Just not old enough for a Town Car, I guess. Who is anymore? It's a limo.
I have nothing but good to say about the LS, for anyone who wonders. I think they're remarkable.
What if Lincoln dropped in the new 4.6L 3V 300 hp SOHC V8 from the new mustang? That would also allow for the Cobra version of the same engine as well as manual trannies.
The sales of MTX LS's was even lower. Here is the % (of US sales) by model year.
2000 1.7% 2001 1.1% 2002 0.5%
Based on these's low sales #'s it's pretty easy to see why Lincoln dropped the MTX. We can kick around the reasons until the cows come home, but there appears to just be a very limited market in the US for a MTX sedan that is the size of the LS.
About 6 months after the CTS came out I went to test drive one. I wanted to try a MTX, but the Caddy dealer I went to did not want any part of MTX's. They told me several lies to talk me out of a MTX. Among the mis-information I was told by the Caddy dealer:
1. MTX's are special order only and if I wanted to order one I'd have to put down a 50% deposit.
2. They could not get a MTX from another dealer because MTX's were special order only and the dealers were not allowed to stock MTX's.
3. I would not want a MTX, CTS because I could not get any of the good options with a MTX.
I know early on Caddy was bragging about how many MTX's they were selling, but I belive that most of those sales were going into dealer inventory. Now that the CTS has been around for 1-1/2 years it would be very interesting to see how their MTX sales are shaking out.
Would someone share the perecentage and total number of MTX sold by other brands' "sports sedans" of similar size & weight? Guess I don't think the number is very high by any of them. I don't consider the BMW 3 series to fit this criteria - too small, but I've been wrong once before. Thanks.
I'm 28 and probably still have MT's first review of the LS from back in 1999 somewhere. I've always been a fan of Lincoln and especially Cadillac and was impressed with the LS from the beginning. From day one I was saying, why doesn't the V8 offer a manual? I mean if a small automaker like BMW can do it(small when compared to the major ones like GM, Ford, Daimler-Chrysler, Toyota, etc) then I know Ford can build a V8 powered sedan with a manual transmission. Nonetheless, they upped both the V6 and the V8s power for 2003 and dropped the manual completely. Cadillac seems to hold a little more promise as they are going to actually offer a car with a V8 and ONLY a manual transmission. I just hope the bean counters at GM don't take charge when they see that the car is not a volume seller.
Back to the LS, I had always liked them but did think of the styling as a bit too conservative. However, after test driving a low mileage 2001 V8 Sport and seeing what kind of prices one could be had for, I was sold. As for that conservative styling, well it has kind of grown on me. I think of it as a stealthy look. And in Autumn red with the 17" wheels, I get alot of compliments. In fact, I've received more compliments on my LS in the nearly 4 months I've had it than I did in over the 2 years I had my Intrigue. And it was black on black with chrome wheels, spoiler, and gold badging.
As for dealers not knowing how to sell them, I can't really say as I bought mine used from a Ford-only store. I have read some posts over in the CTS thread that some Cadillac dealers don't really have a clue about the CTS's performance advantages over say a Deville or Seville. While it is important for a dealer to know his(or her) product, ultimately, I think people come in to buy cars like the CTS and LS with a good knowledge of the vehicle already. While I'm probably more of a car nut than your average consumer, I'm always amazed at how much more I know about the products than the salespeople do. If it weren't for all the sneaky wheeling and dealing, I'd probably make a pretty good car salesman as I know the product strenghts very well.
1) If a car is sold in Europe, it has to have an available manual. Whether the U.S. buys 1% or 10% manual BMW's, BMW will have a manual option for the forseeable future because of the European connection. . .as does Audi/VW. Of course, the EPA certification hoops add tremendously to the cost of having another model available in the U.S., even if it's available elsewhere.
2) If people in Europe will actually buy a sports sedan made in North America (LS or CTS) with all the fine cars they already have available, it sends a pretty strong message that the U.S. cars can compete. At one time, the CTS was to have been marketed over there, but I don't know if it actually happened.
Anyway, here we are, with Cadillac actually doing most of the stuff Lincoln said they were going to do four years ago, and with an inferior car. Any of you checked out those sales numbers lately? It would have been fun to see what the LS could have become, but it ain't gonna happen. You can only make a first impression once, and waiting 4 - 6 years to decide to follow up, let alone actually doing it, doesn't feed the bulldog.
As I noted several months ago, it looks like the LS will end up like the XR4 and the Scorpio. At least 80% of the Lincoln dealers don't know how to sell a car to someone who still has all their own teeth. Remember how Lincoln was trying to discourage dealers from sticking the "cabriolet" roofs and other drug dealer/pimp/blue hair DIOs on the LS? Lotsa luck-though FWIW about 25% of the CTS models I see are similarly pimped out. Two years ago I was hoping to pick up a used V8 MTX LS for my commuter sled; that ship has sunk.
So much doom and gloom. Does anyone have anything POSITIVE to say??? The LSes future is EXTREMELY bright!!!!! The LS is, whether you believe it or not, is still in it's infancy. Rumour has it that due to declining sales, Caddy will drop the manual from the CTS. Sound familiar??
1) For lsluvr: how does the possibility that the only other North American vehicle that might have a prayer of competing with the Europeans is dropping its manual transmission equate to "good news?"
You're likely right, but the message I tried to send, and that apparently wasn't received, is that the Europeans (and the Asians, if you don't care for a manual) have the lux-sport sedan market sewn up, and that Lincoln couldn't care less. Cadillac is at least still showing signs of life.
2) For div2: I can't count (for once) the number of times that I've cited the Merkur on this board and the other one, always in the same sense you're using it now. The Ford Motor Company has had more than one chance to piss away a totally competent concept. "Does anyone remember the Merkur?" was the question I asked way too many times (in the opinions of those who thought everything was proceeding perfectly well). It's more than apparent that the people who really needed to consider the question (including me), didn't. When a few enthusiasts are able to get funding for a nice vehicle that the corporation doesn't understand, inconsistent things result. I absolutely believe the Merkur & Lincoln LS are of a family.
The people who run BMW and Audi live and breathe this stuff. The Lexus and Infiniti people are trying to catch up. The portion of Ford that runs Lincoln (or that was related to the Merkur) doesn't have a clue.
I don't own any Ford stock (last time I checked my mutual funds), but if I did, I'd give it some serious thought.
This should sound familiar: I was in the Merkur Owners Club back in 1988. We too had support- from Merkur team engineers no less. When the XR4 got the axe we were assured that killing the XR4 was a good thing, since all efforts would now be concentrated on improving the Scorpio. We were told "Look for a Cosworth V6 and AWD." In less than a year the Scorpio was gone. The Merkur team moved on to develop the next L-M "breakthrough"-the Aussie built FWD Capri "sports car".
As for positive things to say, well the LS is still a great luxury sedan and a great buy new or used. I think some of us are just a bit disappointed with the opportunity Lincoln really had with the LS. As for Cadillac, I just read an aritcle that even after being on sale for 2 years now, the CTS's typical transaction price is only 4% below MSRP. The SRX is currently going for MSRP. Like the car or not, those are impressive numbers for a domestic branded car as the typical US car goes for about 13% below MSRP. As for Cadillac dropping the manual in the CTS, they are dropping the 5 speed. But 2005 non V-series models are supposed to offer a 6 speed manual with the 3.6 liter engine. Anybody in Dearborn listening!!
Yes, Ford IS on a roll-but take away their trucks and SUVs(and their huge profit margins) and the numbers would tell a different story. IMHO, Ford thinks that they have the mid-luxury sport sedan market covered with the S60 and S-Type. The current purpose of L-M is to sell glitzy and profitable behemoths like the Navigator and Town Car; it's a market L-M understands.
Comments
A: Turning & stopping
B: Pulling away from a stop
C: Both of the above
If you answered A, you need snows in front.
If you answered B, you need snows in rear.
If you answered C, you need snows on both front and rear.
Me? I'm rolling on all-seasons because I don't care about any of the above choices!
<Today's winter tires are better at providing ice and snow traction than ever before. The technology used to develop the tread designs and tread compounds has evolved beyond what you may have used previously. Every one of our tire manufacturers and 7 out of 10 vehicle manufacturers recommend four winter tires be used on rear wheel, front wheel or four wheel drive vehicles. This is because if you use two dissimilar types of tires on your vehicle, you'll have a vehicle that has a "split" personality. One end of the vehicle won't react and perform the same as the other in the dry, wet, slush and snow conditions you'll encounter before the end of winter. Especially in emergency situations, you'll find that your vehicle will probably understeer in one condition and oversteer in another. It is preferable to keep your vehicles handling as consistently as possible by "matching" all four tires. Our customers who have matched their tires tell us they're glad they made the extra investment in four winter tires (and wheels) so they can accelerate, brake, handle and better control their vehicle through winter's challenges.>
Here is an objective track test that validates the FAQ: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/2vs4_01.jsp
I'm assuming that you bought an LS in large part due to it's exceptional handling capability. Don't compromise your safety by trying to save a few dollars. And find a dealer who doesn't need a proctologist to find his head...
Besides, you wouldn't want to be known as the first Schizo LS handling wise right?
Happy Holi's.
Airwolf1000
Thanks very much. That's why I asked the question here. The dealer only had 2 Blizzaks in stock anyway, so I will schedule for the other two when it goes in for service in a couple of weeks.
Thanks again.
Bring back the Continental. Stay close to the overall design of the concept car. Call it the "Continental LS". As it looks like the current LS's dad. I think more of our elders who drove during the 60's and 70's would find a resemblance to the longer, boxier cars of that era. Not to mention I would buy a longer wheelbase version of the LS and I am only 29.
Create a Wagon version of the LS. Yes you heard me correct "Wagon". Take cues from Dodge with their "Magnum" concept. Throw in some of the Volvo wagon designs. There are a lot of people in the market for a "not a mini van or SUV" wagon. Call it the "Discovery LS" or "The LS Traveler". Then get the discovery channel to help promote the vehicle to soccer moms and eco friendly drivers that wouldn't drive an SUV. Hell I might even buy it.
Lastly, I never felt the desire to own a mustang. Just never appealed to me. But the 2005 Stang may change my mine if I am ever in the market for a 2 door. Lets bring some of those more rounded designs into the LS for the new version. One last request... Suicide doors! I don't care if you were stepping out of a Taurus. Suicide doors look sexy on a car! PS. keep the name "LS" or add some numbers to it like " LS90". If imports can do it so can Lincoln.
For now I will continue to be romanced by the current version of the LS ;-)
You will get your wish....look for the NaviCross concept at the Autoshow.
I actually hope the front end gets redesigned a bit. It's too blunt for me
A bit OT: The car with the absolute best performance to dollar ratio is currently the Mustang Mach 1. You can pick one up a 2003 for under $24000 if you use the X-Plan and combine it with the current $4000 rebate. A couple of bone stock Machs have run the 1/4 mile in under 13 seconds. Me want...
Our Dallas club has run a road course against these cars in the past and while they will leave an LS sitting on the straights we can outbrake and out corner them every time.
We also have a member that in a stock LS has outrun an M3 on the same course. In this case it was a novice M3 driver against an experienced LS driver however.
Add the fact that I've driven 1400 miles in one day in the LS and come away refreshed speaks volumes to what we've got under the skin.
While we're talking about Lincolns that just make too good sense for Ford management to consider, I still think an "SVT-like" LS would be perfect to go up against Cadillac's CTS-V as well as the M5 and MB E-class AMG tweaked models.
However, current Mustangs are not good handling cars. Yes with their big tires and well selected springs & shocks you can make them go around a skidpad pretty fast and pull over .84g.
But the Mustang has several major flaws, since it still has a lot of things in it handed down from a 1979 Fairmont. If you want a car that is a throwback to the old days, then present generation Mustang is for you. Yes its probably the muscle car you never had. But:
The front roll center is very low.
The rear roll center is very high.
Under high lateral cornering loads, the rear upper trailing arms bind.
It is noise heavy with a short wheelbase.
Put this all together and it makes for one mother of a twitchy car that can't handle transitions from left to right turns without wanting to wag its tail all over the place.
This is why you can find loads of suspension upgrades, such as Panhard bar conversions (gets rid of the upper control arms, 5 link conversions, etc.
Yes the Mach 1 is a pretty darned good straight line car (a good driver & a 5 Speed Mach 1 can turn low 13's bone stock), but I advise you not to try to take on Chartrand and his LS on a road course.
I paid $145.00 per tire plus $50.00 total for Fedex two day shipping, no sales tax. I called five local tire stores and the cheapest I found was $205.00 plus 5% sales tax per tire, none had them in stock. It cost me $52.00 at my Lincoln Dealer to breakdown, mount and balance the tires. I lease my LS V6 Sport, so I only trust the dealer to work on the car, that way it's on them if any problems, no finger pointing. The best price the dealer could give me on the tires was $205.00. The service dept. is aware of TireRack, as other customers have purchased tires from TireRack, without any problems. They agreed purchasing from TireRack was a wise move considering the price difference.
The 245/45R17 is a recommended tire size, listed inside the door of the LS so it conforms to Lincoln's requirements, no warranty problems. If you need or want a great HP 17" snow tire check them out, you won't be disappointed.
-Paul
Has my attention.
Now I need to make time to actually visit a dealer . . .
- Ray
Who sees now that a local dealer has one with the same color (autumn red / gray) and essentially the same equipment (+ over 500 changes) as my '00 - hmmm . . .
High Performance Sedans
Well – as owner of one initially listed as a ‘maybe’ (a 2002 Passat W8 w/tip - non-Sport, as that package was not available at the time of purchase) – and in the market (maybe) again, here are my thoughts:
FWIW, I have again recently surveyed the sports sedan market as my current ride approaches 23,000 miles at about 20 months.
I traded a Y2K Lincoln LS on my Passat at about 38,000 miles. This has been an interesting ownership experience, and I appreciate the AWD (even though it rarely snows here in North Georgia – it does rain) and the W8 motor and the Tip works reasonably well. It even has a ‘kickdown switch’ pushing past this switch under the accelerator allows downshift (to the lowest gear that will not cause an over-rev) without touching the gearshift when in manual shift / ‘Tip’ mode. Very cool.
I have driven current versions of most sport sedans in the $30 – 45K range. I was even invited to ‘beat on’ the new BMW 530i Sports last Fall at Road Atlanta. Fun, but the exterior and interior styling are just NOT to my taste.
Anyway – I am coming back to the ‘new and improved’ Lincoln LS as the top contender. As I said, I have previously owned one, and I certainly enjoyed the car in many respects. And they have effectively addressed nearly every criticism I had of the Y2K car.
Given the fact that an equivalent 2004 is a bit more expensive, even before end-of-model-year discounting and cash back of $6K, and has no enhancements of interest to me, a 2003 for something like $32 - $33K (V8 Sport w/moonroof – list: $41,860 w/destination but before Tax, etc.) looks like a screaming bargain – for me.
Cheers,
- Ray
Trying to find time to visit a local dealer . .
If interested in an X-Plan PIN, send me an email. It should save you $$ over & above rebates.
If a 2004 was the same price as a 2003, I'd take the 2004 because of its several minor inprovements and that it has been sitting around on the dealer's lot for a lot shorter time than a 2004.
However if it was one of the latest 2004's that no longer has the rain sensitive wipers I'd have second thoughts. The rain sensitive wipers on my 2003 LS work great. They are significantly improved from the 2000 LS I had.
I can't make any comparisons to your Passat, but I like my 2003 LS a lot more than the 2000. All but a couple of the gripes I had with the 2000 were fixed on the 2003 and the engine has the low end grunt that was missing in the 2000's.
I drove the W8 Passat (as well as may other sport sedans) before finally deciding on the LS. I haven't regretted my decision at all. I did really like the W8 but two things held me up on that one. 1) I had the mental block of paying that much for a VW and 2)it looks way too much like a $20k Passat. VW needs to jazz it up a bit so you know what it has. Kind of like how you always know a 540i from the lesser 5 series. One other hang up I have on Vdubs is this: If you happen to notice a car on the road at night that has one head light out, I would bet you that at least half of them are VWs. Maybe I'm way off the mark here but it looks like they can't get the electrical thing right. (I've owned 2 VWs in the past). I've been very happy with my '03 V8 sport so far. It's a great car.
gschwartz, I wish I had inquired about the X plan before I bought. I used to have a Z plan PIN but lost it over a year ago due to a death in the family. It's largely responsible why my last 5 cars have been Ford products. Oh well.
Rich
The vast majority of the people who end up driving an LS do it for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with its capability to compete reasonably well with the BMW 5.
Go figure.
The LS was introduced in '99 as a legitimate competitor to the BMW 5. It was available with a manual (at least with the 6) and was designed to be marketed in Europe (had a hole in the front bumper for the required tow hook, etc.), with a future diesel (probably turbodiesel -- sign me up). With the COTY in Nov of '99 and the Consumers' Report rave, many thought the LS was the answer in terms of an American luxo-sports sedan. Recall that all of this was prior to the Cadillac and Nissan competition.
Anyway, time passed, and the ball was dropped. The original concept was that the manual would be added to the V8 at about the time it was eliminated altogether. The innovative advertising that we saw in '99 faded away, and anyone who knew anything about the LS probably figured it out on-site at the dealer. Then, to top it off, Ford management bought Volvo and decided that marketing the Lincoln in Europe was a bad idea.
Anyway, let's consider those Lincoln dealers. Are they enthusiastic about supporting a new direction for Lincoln -- toward competing with BMW, Audi and Lexus performance vehicles, or are they more comfortable continuing to sell Town Cars to the silver-haired? If you don't know the answer, you didn't have the pleasure of trying to buy a manual LS in January of 2000. I did. These people would rather be skinned alive than sell performance cars. They'll sell the high-margin trucks, but an LS? A manual transmission? We don't need no stinkin' manual transmissions. . .and neither do you.
Now let's look at what Lincoln did (besides not advertising & gutting the European plan) with the LS. Well, they discontinued the manual, which is a topic (among others) about which I've been adequately vociferous to get me thrown off another LS board. They not only didn't put it on the V8, they eliminated it from the V6 as well.
Why, you might ask. Well, the answer is demographics. The typical Lincoln driver could give a rip less about manual transmission availability. . .or the quality of the LS suspension. . .or the fact that the LS can do ten consecutive stops from 100 mph without degrading the brakes. . .or that the car is extremely attractive to younger people (I can vouch for this), or much of anything else that appeals to true sports sedan people.
Most dealers appear to position the LS as a smaller alternative to the Town Car -- it's easier to park and less expensive (at sticker, which many of the Lincoln faithful actually believe). I'd venture to guess that 95% of the Lincoln dealerships have absolutely no clue that it's a performance car.
Their customers can't be expected to be any better.
Lincoln had a golden opportunity to really market this car and create momentum for the Lincoln brand but as you said they dropped the ball. The decision makers at Lincoln must be owners of Town cars who don't mind watching Cadillac take off (and take marketshare). You have to give Caddy credit with what they're doing in attracting the younger following. I tend to see more males driving the CTS than the LS and younger ones too. I have to believe we're all a little envious of Caddy and wish Lincoln would step up.
Rich
I have nothing but good to say about the LS, for anyone who wonders. I think they're remarkable.
Here is the % (of US sales) by model year.
2000 1.7%
2001 1.1%
2002 0.5%
Based on these's low sales #'s it's pretty easy to see why Lincoln dropped the MTX. We can kick around the reasons until the cows come home, but there appears to just be a very limited market in the US for a MTX sedan that is the size of the LS.
About 6 months after the CTS came out I went to test drive one. I wanted to try a MTX, but the Caddy dealer I went to did not want any part of MTX's. They told me several lies to talk me out of a MTX. Among the mis-information I was told by the Caddy dealer:
1. MTX's are special order only and if I wanted to order one I'd have to put down a 50% deposit.
2. They could not get a MTX from another dealer because MTX's were special order only and the dealers were not allowed to stock MTX's.
3. I would not want a MTX, CTS because I could not get any of the good options with a MTX.
I know early on Caddy was bragging about how many MTX's they were selling, but I belive that most of those sales were going into dealer inventory. Now that the CTS has been around for 1-1/2 years it would be very interesting to see how their MTX sales are shaking out.
Back to the LS, I had always liked them but did think of the styling as a bit too conservative. However, after test driving a low mileage 2001 V8 Sport and seeing what kind of prices one could be had for, I was sold. As for that conservative styling, well it has kind of grown on me. I think of it as a stealthy look. And in Autumn red with the 17" wheels, I get alot of compliments. In fact, I've received more compliments on my LS in the nearly 4 months I've had it than I did in over the 2 years I had my Intrigue. And it was black on black with chrome wheels, spoiler, and gold badging.
As for dealers not knowing how to sell them, I can't really say as I bought mine used from a Ford-only store. I have read some posts over in the CTS thread that some Cadillac dealers don't really have a clue about the CTS's performance advantages over say a Deville or Seville. While it is important for a dealer to know his(or her) product, ultimately, I think people come in to buy cars like the CTS and LS with a good knowledge of the vehicle already. While I'm probably more of a car nut than your average consumer, I'm always amazed at how much more I know about the products than the salespeople do. If it weren't for all the sneaky wheeling and dealing, I'd probably make a pretty good car salesman as I know the product strenghts very well.
1) If a car is sold in Europe, it has to have an available manual. Whether the U.S. buys 1% or 10% manual BMW's, BMW will have a manual option for the forseeable future because of the European connection. . .as does Audi/VW. Of course, the EPA certification hoops add tremendously to the cost of having another model available in the U.S., even if it's available elsewhere.
2) If people in Europe will actually buy a sports sedan made in North America (LS or CTS) with all the fine cars they already have available, it sends a pretty strong message that the U.S. cars can compete. At one time, the CTS was to have been marketed over there, but I don't know if it actually happened.
Anyway, here we are, with Cadillac actually doing most of the stuff Lincoln said they were going to do four years ago, and with an inferior car. Any of you checked out those sales numbers lately? It would have been fun to see what the LS could have become, but it ain't gonna happen. You can only make a first impression once, and waiting 4 - 6 years to decide to follow up, let alone actually doing it, doesn't feed the bulldog.
You're likely right, but the message I tried to send, and that apparently wasn't received, is that the Europeans (and the Asians, if you don't care for a manual) have the lux-sport sedan market sewn up, and that Lincoln couldn't care less. Cadillac is at least still showing signs of life.
2) For div2: I can't count (for once) the number of times that I've cited the Merkur on this board and the other one, always in the same sense you're using it now. The Ford Motor Company has had more than one chance to piss away a totally competent concept. "Does anyone remember the Merkur?" was the question I asked way too many times (in the opinions of those who thought everything was proceeding perfectly well). It's more than apparent that the people who really needed to consider the question (including me), didn't. When a few enthusiasts are able to get funding for a nice vehicle that the corporation doesn't understand, inconsistent things result. I absolutely believe the Merkur & Lincoln LS are of a family.
The people who run BMW and Audi live and breathe this stuff. The Lexus and Infiniti people are trying to catch up. The portion of Ford that runs Lincoln (or that was related to the Merkur) doesn't have a clue.
I don't own any Ford stock (last time I checked my mutual funds), but if I did, I'd give it some serious thought.
Ford had a big run from $13 to $16 in the last two weeks after it announced it was increasing its profit forcast for 2005.