The Current State of the US Auto Market

circlew

Well, the warranty on my Kia obviates the cost of a major failure for 10 years. But your right, it would be Extremely unpleasant for any GM owner to waste a tranny or engine after their warranty expires in 5 years before the payments end! .

Mr_Shiftright

I really don't see how technicians are going to keep up with the pace of automotive technology going on right now.

iluvmysephia1

Good point, shifty. Could that be why the looks on the tech.'s faces often have a confused skew to them? Yeah, the problem with the long notes and purchasing that way is if you're the type that runs up large miles on your rig and then what when something happens? My '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS is around 119,800 miles right now and running like a champ. I am replacing the right rear brake lamp this morning, other than that, things are good.

But if you've got 2 years left on your note and you're passing 100,000 miles (the 10 years on the Kia/Hyundai/Mitsubishi Warranties don't count once you've hit 100,000 miles) you are in a more precarious state, definitely.

stever

Maybe someone can dig up better info but it sounds like repair costs have gone way down.

The average American household owns 1.9 vehicles and spends around 1.5 percent of its annual income on auto repairs. (2004 numbers it appears). (howstuffworks)

This Monthly Labor Review article (pfd file) says that in 1950, people spent 20% of their income on auto related maintenance costs (not the payment, but gas, repairs, insurance and licensing). That percentage was the same in 1986.

stickguy

it will just have to evolve into a different process. More plugging into remote diagnostics, stuff like that. Just does not make sense to expect 1 shop to have all the tools and knowledge to handle all the new cars.

also expect fewer indy shops and more dealers, or possibly going beyond dealers into "supercenters". So the tiered system with specialists for tires/brakes, generalists for oil changes/fluids/basic work, and hi-tech places were you get sent for complicated stuff.

Mr_Shiftright

That's because huge warranties pick up the tab now. Let's see percentages of out of warranty, since most cars 'back then' had a 90 day warranty.

stickguy

well, if you want simple, you can still get a 1973 Nova with a straight 6, and wrench on it yourself in the driveway every weekend. Cheap to keep on the road. You just have to be willing to give up all the nice goodies and safety features modern cars have.

Mr_Shiftright

Nah, I'd end up spending too much money getting it to stop and steer.

suydam

The two charts don't sound the same. Auto maintenance is different than auto repairs.

stever

Yeah, I was a bit surprised that it wasn't easier to find good numbers on maintenance costs. Maybe an inflation kind of index would be a better tack to take.

Mr_Shiftright

I would wager a small bet that out-of-warranty repairs are WAY HIGHER than they were, proportionally, in the 1950s or 60s....if for no other reason that people can't fix their own cars anymore.

stever

I remember the good old days. Labor was a lot cheaper but cars were always breaking down.

tlong

@uplanderguy said:
I'd agree with that tlong, except that things that happen today are far more complex and expensive to fix. Not too much 'shadetree' mechanic-ing going on today, unfortunately.

Ageed. When it goes wrong, it goes wrong badly.

tlong

Honda Accord, not Camry, is the most sold car to individual buyers!:

http://fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/22/move-over-toyota-camry-theres-a-new-no-1-midsize-s.aspx

Mr_Shiftright

I NEVER remember being oppressed by auto repair bills when I was growing up.

Now, every time that "check engine" light goes on, my blood freezes and I have to scramble like crazy to make the repair affordable.

$1700 for a new catalytic converter? THAT'S not going to happen---time to get creative!

$600 for a new control arm because it "the bushings don't come separate"?----THAT's not going to happen either.

so my $2300 repairs were pared way down to $550 last year, but how many people have the network to do all that? (or the time, for that matter).

uplanderguy

Hey circle, just looked at the latest CR Auto issue that's on the stands now. Malibu and Optima both rated 'average' in total for reliability, except Turbo Optima rated "worse than average". Is truedata's data collected more reasonably? I have doubts with CR, but I have no idea of TrueData's gathering methods.

As always, just trying to present the entire story. Somebody has to.

stever

Hm, $400 in 1970 dollars is around $2,400 today. Fun, if a bit scary, calculator here.

iluvmysephia1

Well, the warranty on my Kia obviates the cost of a major failure for 10 years. But your right, it would be Extremely unpleasant for any GM owner to waste a tranny or engine after their warranty expires in 5 years before the payments end! .

circlew-man, you are hard-working and unrelenting in your...umm...hatred-I mean, dislike...I mean loathing of GM, aren't you, Sir?

circlew

Umm, yes. I am extremely loyal to noting all of GM's weaknesses. Even if the Malibu were equal to the Optima, the warranty alone shifts the balance. But since the Optima is a better car, it's a slam-dunk decision!

Here is a blip from TrueDelta which rated the Kia Optima higher than the Malibu in reliability:

"You won't find 4-door Sedan reliability information like this anywhere else. Actual repair frequencies, not just vague dots. So you can tell how much the 4-door Sedan truly differs from competing car models in reliability.

These stats are promptly updated four times a year, to much more closely track 4-door Sedan reliability as the cars age. Others tell you how reliable the 4-door Sedan was a year ago, when the cars were a year younger and had 12,000 fewer miles on them. Only TrueDelta tells you how reliable the 4-door Sedan has been recently."

uplanderguy

Gee, are they talking about "the 4-door sedan"? LOL

Again...CR (and it's clear how I haven't trusted their sampling) rated all years Malibu and Optima fours the same (frankly, I forgot to look at V6 Malibus if it was listed), except for the Turbo Optima as 'worse than average'. Is yours a Turbo?

Again, omitted by you, is that True Delta only has one model year for which there is data for both Malibu and Optima--2011. Both are rated statistically 'average' by them. Were you ever able to find out where the other model year Malibus were, post-2011, and where the '08 and '09 Optimas were?

benjaminh

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I NEVER remember being oppressed by auto repair bills when I was growing up.

Now, every time that "check engine" light goes on, my blood freezes and I have to scramble like crazy to make the repair affordable.

$1700 for a new catalytic converter? THAT'S not going to happen---time to get creative!

$600 for a new control arm because it "the bushings don't come separate"?----THAT's not going to happen either.

so my $2300 repairs were pared way down to $550 last year, but how many people have the network to do all that? (or the time, for that matter).

How could a catalytic converter cost $1700? Yikes. And how could it wear out. I thought they were supposed to last for the life of the vehicle, and were warranted for c. 10 years?

I've always been oppressed by auto repair bills, which is why I started buying new Honda Accords with extended warranties.

But now you've got me worried about whether I should keep my 2008 Accord when the warranty expires, which is Jan. of 2016....Hmmm.

hpmctorque

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I NEVER remember being oppressed by auto repair bills when I was growing up.

Now, every time that "check engine" light goes on, my blood freezes and I have to scramble like crazy to make the repair affordable.

$1700 for a new catalytic converter? THAT'S not going to happen---time to get creative!

Doesn't the law require carmakers to warranty catalytic converters for 8 years or 80,000, or something like that? The converter on my daughter's '02 Jetta went bad at about 65,000 miles a few years ago, and VW (reluctantly; we had to stand for our rights under the law) replaced it at no charge, even though her car's 3 year/36,000 mile warranty had long expired.

I bring this up because I'm wondering whether you MINI's catalytic converter shouldn't have been covered. It doesn't matter whether you purchased your car new or used, so long as the age and mileage are within the parameters.

hpmctorque

@stickguy said:
well, if you want simple, you can still get a 1973 Nova with a straight 6, and wrench on it

yourself in the driveway every weekend. Cheap to keep on the road. You just have to be willing to give up all the nice goodies and safety features modern cars have.

Sure, you could wrench it yourself, but how many road worthy early '70s Novas are there today? Besides, '73 Novas, including the I-6, delivered lousy gas mileage, and they don't like today's low octane unleaded gas. Those old Novas (and compact Mopars) were decent cars in their day, but they're no match for a well maintained 10 year old Honda or Toyota. I'm guessing you could buy one of these cars for about the same price as a well preserved '73 Nova, or maybe less.

uplanderguy

The Nova has so much more character, but you have to be an old-car guy to appreciate that. Where I live, in salty northeast Ohio, I probably see more early '70's Novas than I see early '80's Japanese cars, but the Novas are usually seen only at cruise-ins and on nice days.

circlew

This Nova looks and sounds great and gets decent mileage: $38,500

1966 Chevrolet II Nova Super Sport. Current Location is Billings MO -If You Have Been Hunting For A Really Nice Classic Car Then Your Search Is- Over This Is A True 1966 118 Car And Was Restored To Look And Be Mostly- Original But Updated With Modern Suspension Brakes Power Steering- Motor Transmission Tires And Wheels. This Car Cruises At 70 MPH With Seemingly Little Effort And Gets 18 To 20-MPG It Was Built To Be A Extremely Nice Driver Show Car And A Cruiser. I Put 1500 Miles On This Car Last Summer On The 2012 Hot Rod Power Tour-And Loved Every Minute Of It And So Did All Onlookers. Upgrades To This Car Include The Following. New Shocks-Frame Connecters-New Rear Leaf Springs-A Turbo 350 With A Mild Shift Kit-1966 327 Motor That Gets A Fun 350 Horsepower-CPP Mini Front End With Both Upper And Lower A Arms- New C5 Coys 17 Inch Wheels In Gunmetal And New Tires-DynoMax Super Turbo Mufflers Giving It A Great Sound-Power Steering Using The New Borgeson Power Steering Box- Drilled And Slotted Front Disk Brakes With Dual Master Brake Cylinder. All Of The Lights Turn Signals Horn And The Wipers Work- And Has The Original Am Radio And Original Clock. Financing Nationwide Shipping And Warranties Available To Qualified Buyers

uplanderguy

The '66 and '67 Chevy II's are the only ones I can say I don't like the styling of at all, but I know a lot of people love the SS's as you've shown. I like the coke-bottle '68-72, other than they are so popular and ubiquitous at old-car cruises. I like the '75 freshening up, too, although in hindsight don't like the big B pillar on coupes. I like the '65 the best of the first iteration.

stever

If you liked that one, then you'll probably like this one too.

2014 Chevy SS: Daytona stud on and off the track (Detroit News)

andre1969

@circlew said:
Well, it might feel like it costs more to repair the"complex fix" but not really. My Mom's 1966 Pontiac LeMans cost $3,000 and now would cost $21,600. No A/C and roll-up windows included!

So, if a major repair like a transmission change in 1966 was about $500, today would be about $3,600.

I don't know how much transmissions cost to repair back in the old days, but the only two transmission rebuilds I ever had were: 1) ~$675, in 1993, for a rebuilt 3-speed THM350C in my '82 Cutlass Supreme, 2) ~$650 for a rebuilt Torqueflite 904 3-speed in my '79 Newport, in 1997.

I wonder if, somehow, some rebuild prices haven't kept up with inflation? Adjusting for inflation, that Cutlass would be around $1100 today, while the Newport would be around $950. A couple years ago, out of curiosity, I asked the guy at the local transmission shop about how much it would cost to rebuild the 3-speed automatic in my '85 Silverado...another THM350C. He said about $650. My jaw almost dropped!

My uncle had to have the 4-speed automatic in his '97 Silverado rebuilt a few years back. 4L60E or something like that. It came out to $1860. I remember back in the late 1990's, when I delivered pizzas part time (in that '79 Newport, BTW), we had a driver from another store help out one night. She had a Subaru wagon...can't remember which one, but I'm getting a mental image of a Legacy Outback. Anyway, transmission had gone on that, and it cost $4,000+ to replace! However, I guess the AWD would add to that cost. Plus, in FWD cars, the differential tends to be part of the transmission, rather than a separate component in back, like on a RWD car.

Mr_Shiftright

"How could a catalytic converter cost $1700? Yikes. And how could it wear out. I thought they were supposed to last for the life of the vehicle, and were warranted for c. 10 years?"

I think it's 8 years and 80K miles. Many catalytics are integral with the header pipe--some of this type of catalytic "wear out" when the ceramic ring that holds them in their outer casing cracks, causing a hellacious rattle--so often a catalytic will still "work" even though it has basically fallen apart internally. If you can live with everyone on the street wondering why you are dragging your exhaust system on the street, then fine.

If you have twin cats, say, on a German car out of warranty, your repair bill will make your socks rolls up and down.

That $1700 for the cat on a Mini is just for the PART. And no, legally at least in California, you can't use a universal one, and no, no aftermarket company makes one for California, and no, Mini won't admit that its catalytic just fell apart.

hpmctorque

@uplanderguy said:
The Nova has so much more character, but you have to be an old-car guy to appreciate that.

That's true. I get it. I'd prefer owning an a well preserved Nova over a 10 year old Camcord, but my comment was in response to the post about the ease with which you could do your own wrenching on a Nova. The point I was trying to make is that the savings from maintaining and repairing a Nova would be more than offset by the added fuel consumption and the need for more frequent repairs. This assumes that both cars are used as daily drivers, because if you drive less that 2,000/year, say, it wouldn't matter.

To your point, it's nice to know that old American iron is being preserved in Ohio. It would be neat to own a Nova, or a Studebaker, for that matter. By the way, I also like Studebakers and the other independent domestic brands.

Just as new Indian motorcycles are being produced again, maybe someone will resurrect the Studebaker brand. It's unlikely, but one can hope. Can you even imagine what a 2015 Studebaker would look like?

Mr_Shiftright

Americans are unfortunately quickly losing interest in 1950s era cars, especially the independents. So if you want the simplicity of a 50s car, now is a very very good time to buy one, as prices are dropping substantially.

I think to be fair you'd have to compare repair costs of a '73 Nova with a used, out of warranty modern car, and also compare the two owners having equal mechanical skills at their disposal.

andre1969

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
If you have twin cats, say, on a German car out of warranty, your repair bill will make your socks rolls up and down.

That $1700 for the cat on a Mini is just for the PART. And no, legally at least in California, you can't use a universal one, and no, no aftermarket company makes one for California, and no, Mini won't admit that its catalytic just fell apart.

Heck, even on my uncle's '03 Corolla, the catalytic converter was a weak point. IIRC, there were two separate components, possibly more. One part failed after about 5 years, although the car had well over 100,000 miles on it at that point. I think that bill was about $500-600. Well, then the second part failed, a couple years later. That bill was around $900, but I think he had other stuff done at the same time, so not sure how much the converter was.

Even back in the "old" days, my '89 Gran Fury had two small "pre-cats" in the exhaust, just aft of the exhaust manifolds. Then there was the main one, and then the muffler.

I haven't even bothered to look underneath to see how many pieces my 2000 Park Ave Ultra has. It's a dual exhaust (dunno if it's "true" dual though), but I'd imagine that would be two converters? Kind of afraid to look up under my 2012 Ram, as well. Probably more pieces under there than I want to see!

uplanderguy

Some independents, more than others. Who would have thought that condition-for-condition, a '57 or '58 Studepackard sedan would bring more than a 'real' Packard Clipper sedan of a few years earlier? But that's what I've seen repeatedly on eBay, for several years now. It's '60's, but would anyone have guessed that white Wagonaire with a wrong-year engine, as nice as it was, would have brought $28K two weeks ago--only a few grand less than a '64 Eldo convertible? Not this guy, and I've been into Studes for over 25 years. Golden Hawks continue to outpace expectations, and I really don't even like them all that much.

andre1969

@uplanderguy said:
The '66 and '67 Chevy II's are the only ones I can say I don't like the styling of at all, but I know a lot of people love the SS's as you've shown. I like the coke-bottle '68-72, other than they are so popular and ubiquitous at old-car cruises. I like the '75 freshening up, too, although in hindsight don't like the big B pillar on coupes. I like the '65 the best of the first iteration.

Funny, I think I'm just the opposite. The '66-67 Chevy II has always been my favorite of them, with '68-72 being the least favorite. I think a major part of it with me though, is the loss of the hardtop and convertible styles, leaving just the sedan and pillared coupe. They also lost the wagon for '68, but when I was younger I never cared about wagons, so that was no big loss to me.

In general, once ponycars came out, it seemed like everyone started downgrading their compacts to more basic, workaday, economical transportation. The Falcon was the first, losing the hardtop and convertible for 1966, in deference to the Mustang. And, I don't know if they offered dressed-up Falcons, but it seems to me that most of the '66+ models were pretty bargain-basement.

Mopar started following suit for '67, dropping the Valiant convertible and hardtop to make way for the Barracuda. Wagons were also dropped that year. However, you could still get the Valiant Signet, which was dressed up pretty nice. Since Dodge didn't have a ponycar, until the 1970 Challenger, the Dart seemed to hold on a bit longer, offering convertibles through '69, and a hardtop right up through the end in 1976. FWIW, the Valiant brought its hardtop back, calling it the Scamp, from '71-76.

And then with GM, it was paring back the Nova to make more room for the Camaro.

Another reason why I don't like that generation Nova, I guess, is because as a kid they always seemed to be the most drab colors, and usually cheaply trimmed. But, a coupe in the right color, with big wheels, can still look pretty good, and muscular.

uplanderguy

The '68-72 are everywhere, and I've seen a lot in dark green it seems over the years. That said, I used to see a lot with what they called the Exterior Decor Group, which got you a wide side molding and chrome trim around the door and quarter window frames, which dressed the car up considerably. Rarely seen in our parts, you could get a Nova in those years with a Custom Exterior that included upper-body pinstriping, sill moldings, roof drip and door/quarter window frame moldings, and a molding between the taillights, and a Custom Interior that gave you carpet, nice cloth or vinyl seat trim, and bright trim on the instrument cluster and woodgrain trim with "Nova" emblem on the inner door panels. I never saw many with this trim. The SS could be had in cheapo trim or in combination with the Custom Exterior and Custom Interior.

When they came out, I really liked the '75 Nova LN and Nova Custom. The LN had to have the optional wheel opening moldings though. In hindsight, I think the four-door Novas of that generation have a BMW-thing going on in the roofline. I think they're better-looking than the mid-size four-doors those years.

hpmctorque

I like the '76 and '77 Nova Concours.

uplanderguy

Yeah, those Concours models had nice interiors. I remember seeing a new one at our local dealer that had a narrow side molding down one side and the optional wide molding down the other side! LOL

I was saying how I've always liked '65 Chevy II's, and I just went to eBay and saw this cheapo, low-mileage one there. I guess I've "been away" from those cars too long--and I know I'm biased--but I'd take a '65 Studebaker cheapo Commander two-door over that Chevy II for looks, all day long.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Nova-100-1965-Chevy-II-Nova-2-door-sedan-12-000-orig-miles-NO-RESERVE-Rust-free-/131115940540?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1e871e7abc&item=131115940540&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

hpmctorque

@uplanderguy said:

I just went to eBay and saw this cheapo, low-mileage one there. orig-miles-NO-RESERVE-Rust-free-/131115940540?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1e871e7abc&item=131115940540&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

That '65 Chevy II is just too spartan for my taste. For anyone who cared about looks, or how well a car aged, the extra money spent on trim upgrades was well worth it in those days. That's much less the case today, when the differentiation is more in drivetrains and features than trim. It's also particularly true on the exterior (not much difference between an Accord LX and EX/CamryLE and XLE), since in the interior upgrades can buy you better upholstery, simulated woodgrain, etc.

stever

Seems like the state of the US auto market is stuck in a sixties time warp. Hard to believe Susan Sarandon and Meat Loaf are both pushing 70.

Mr_Shiftright

You should be seeing all 50s domestic cars falling in value over the next few years.

As generations advance, the "cars of my youth" market falls off.

fintail

Indeed. Most common 20s-40s stuff is worth less now than it was 30 years ago. And that's in real dollars - adjusted for inflation, a bit less. That's why one should buy to enjoy, not to invest.

@MrShift@Edmunds said:

You should be seeing all 50s domestic cars falling in value over the next few years.

As generations advance, the "cars of my youth" market falls off.

benjaminh

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
...I think it's 8 years and 80K miles..... That $1700 for the cat on a Mini is just for the PART. And no, legally at least in California, you can't use a universal one, and no, no aftermarket company makes one for California, and no, Mini won't admit that its catalytic just fell apart.

Yes, you're right that the warranty required by the feds is 8 years/80k miles. I assume that most manufacturers design them to last for at least 10 years/100k miles. What age and mileage did the one on your Mini wear out?

Looking online, it seems like aftermarket cats for a 2008 Accord are more like $300, and so the price for the Mini reflects the BMW premium that has now officially scared me away from the brand.

stickguy

I had a 1995 Mystique V6 from 1998-2001, and while I had it I know that the cat was replaced twice (thankfully not on my dime). Not sure at this point if it was 1 cat replaced 2x, or 2 replaced at different times.

Mr_Shiftright

@benjaminh said:

Looking online, it seems like aftermarket cats for a 2008 Accord are more like $300, and so the price for the Mini reflects the BMW premium that has now officially scared me away from the brand.

That's because California requires a special catalytic. If the MINI were a 49 state car, $400--$500 would get the job done.

js06gv

Circlew, I mostly lurk on this thread and haven't commented much but the sparring you and uplanderguy do is always a source of enjoyment for me. You with your posting of statistics and his "only in this forum" comments crack me up. I understand the GM bias. I used to be all GM but nothing much excites me over there these days. I do still have my prized '00 Trans Am WS6 that I will never part with, but moved on to Ford and the Koreans for the daily drivers. After a great experience with a '07 a Santa Fe, I just leased my daughter a '14 Optima SX Turbo. The SF cost me $21,500 brand new, took me to 72K with basic maintenance only and got me $12,000 on private sale a couple of weeks ago. I'd say the Korean makes are starting to turn the corner on resale, just as they started turning the corner on quality about a decade or so ago. As for the Optima, I know styling is subjective but I personally don't think anything out there can touch this car for looks, power, features and value. My in laws were here this weekend and my FIL was blown away by the car, such that at the Dallas car show yesterday he was seriously looking at Hyundai and Kia for a potential replacement for my MIL's Lexus ES.

The only thing that would have enticed me to look at a Chevy is my accumulation of GM points (still have almost 8K to spend) but it ticks me off that I can only use around 1K at a time unless GM runs a promo. Haven't seen one of those in forever. That, and the lackluster product line, kept me away this time. Will see what my points do for me in the future.

andre1969

@uplanderguy said:
When they came out, I really liked the '75 Nova LN and Nova Custom. The LN had to have the optional wheel opening moldings though. In hindsight, I think the four-door Novas of that generation have a BMW-thing going on in the roofline. I think they're better-looking than the mid-size four-doors those years.

I remember as a kid, those '75-79 Novas really stood out as clean and modern looking. In some ways, they had almost an '80's sort of sensibility to the style, with the crisp, clean angular looks, in stark contrast to the bloated, rounded excess that typified much of the era. They did start to look dated as the 70's wore on, and that angular, crisp look became more and more common ('77 Caprice, '78 Malibu, '78 Fairmont, etc), but I think they still look good today.

Interestingly, GM also tried to tie in the styling of the Nova with the Impala/Caprice that year, as the big cars got a new roofline that mimicked that BMW look as well. And the Caprice went for a bit of that shark-nose wedge look around the headlights that the Nova had, and then the Impala would get it for '76. The Caprice/Impala also got squared-off and crisped-up a bit as well, at least as much as they could do with that style.

In contrast, GM really didn't seem to do much with the Malibu, other than give it that front-end with the stacked quad headlights. So, IMO at least, it didn't have quite the "family" look that the Caprice/Impala and Nova did in '75-76.

In light of the way automotive styling ultimately turned, though, as the 80's wore on and went back to the rounded look, I think the '73-77 midsize 4-door has a really modern, almost futuristic looking roofline, with the thin pillars, large glass area, and frameless windows. They could probably take something like a '73 Malibu, re-skin it using the existing roofline, and come up with something downright futuristic looking. 6000SUX anyone?

tlong

@Stever@Edmunds said:
Seems like the state of the US auto market is stuck in a sixties time warp. Hard to believe Susan Sarandon and Meat Loaf are both pushing 70.

Well, they're apparently remaking Thelma and Louise...

stever

@tlong, reruns are enough to drive you over a cliff.

Some of y'all will like the manufacturers represented in this study:

Top 10: Which vehicles will last 200,000 miles? (Detroit Free Press)

uplanderguy

Only posting deliberately lopsided statistics isn't doing anyone a service, IMHO. That's in response to js06gv's remarks. BTW, I've used GM points many times when buying a new car, and I've used as much as $3,000 at a time. I have never heard of a $1,000 limit.

circlew

Less than 50% of GM cars with at-risk switch recalled

General Motors' recall of the Chevy Cobalt and Pontiac G5 covers fewer than half the GM cars on U.S. roads that it years ago told dealers might have the ignition switch problem linked to at least six deaths.

But another 658,172 vehicles of other models are on the road that were identified by GM as early as 2005 in a dealer alert as having the same potential switch problem. The vehicle tally is from an analysis of Polk vehicle registration data for USA TODAY by TrueCar.com.

Not recalled, but identified by GM in dealer service bulletins along with the recalled cars, are the 2006 and 2007 Chevrolet HHR and Pontiac Solstice, the 2003 to 2007 Saturn Ion and the 2007 Saturn Sky. They all use switches with the same part number, an automaker's definitive way to identify components, as the recalled cars.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/23/gm-recall-ignition-switch-fatalities-nhtsa/5704149/