@dieselone said:
Andre I'm with you. Now that I'm used to luxed up BOF SUVs and pickups it's hard for me to like small cars. My wife's Taurus feels cramped and cheap compared to my Ram.
I used to know a guy who, for a change of life, got a job driving tractor trailers. And considering he was a bit of a screw-up (totaled his girlfriend's Focus one night when he was driving angry), giving him 20 tons or so to handle is a scary thought in my opinion!
Well, he was visiting the area a few years back, and borrowed his father's F-150. He said that, after getting used to driving a rig, that pickup felt tiny! Guess it's all about perspective.
@dieselone said:
I can't fix a vehicle that has a cheesy interior, sounds like crap when it starts and drives poorly among other nasty traits. Not that I'd be happy with a trans failure, been there.
I've heard that referred to as "GM cars run bad longer than most cars run at all!"
@uplanderguy said:
Like Pintos, I predict in years down the road we'll hear people say they still thought their Cobalts were good cars. This is half the production run. But it is an enormous thing.
Oddly enough, when it comes to overall death rates, Pintos actually rated slightly better than average for small cars at the time. So you actually had less of a chance of dying in a Pinto than in the average small car of the era. But IF you died, it was more likely to be from fire, I guess!
I've often wondered, in those Pinto fires, if any occupants of the car that did the rear-ending ever died in the resulting fire? There's an old crash test video where they run a '71 Impala into a Pinto, and the ensuing fireball appears to engulf the Impala moreso than the Pinto. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgOxWPGsJNY
@circlew said:
The U.S. attorney's office in New York has opened a criminal probe into the circumstances surrounding the General Motors ignition switch recall, according to reports on Tuesday by Reuters and the Associated Press, citing sources who asked not to be identified because the investigation is not public.
Dealers will begin replacing the ignition switches on those models next month, GM says. In the meantime, owners are urged to drive using the ignition key only, with nothing attached.
Too lazy to look. Can you list the models affected?
The problem with "old GM" was that even when it knew there was an issue, getting the organization to move was about impossible. Remember Lutz's rant about taking a bunch of months and a bunch of committees just to approve a Christmas card?
The jury is still out on whether GM can streamline enough to deal with situations like this. Doesn't sound like they are anywhere near there yet.
That said, this might be a good time to pick up some stock and hold it for a couple of years.
@andre1969 said:
I've often wondered, in those Pinto fires, if any occupants of the car that did the rear-ending
ever died in the resulting fire?
27 people were killed in Pinto fires - the article I found doesn't say if they were all passengers in the Pinto.
The same article noted that in addition to the fire, the damage to the body often buckled the body and prevented the doors from opening thus trapping the passengers.
question 1: Would American automakers trade their reputation for a Japanese one? A European one?
question 2: Would a Japanese automaker trade their reputation for an American one? A European one?
My two cents:
Answer 1: Yes, in most cases although not for every market niche. And duh Shiftright--Chrysler has pretty much traded their reputation for a European one, and Ford HAS a European reputation already
Answer 2: Aside from full-size pickups, I don't think they would; and no, not for a European one.
Those GMs are just terrible!!! Nothing beyond regular maintenance for a car of its age.
Transmission hasn't failed once, let alone 3 times in 100,000 mi. Transmission shifts smoothy without slip. Engine runs smoothly. Starts immediately. No sludge. No unintended acceleration. 200,860 mi..
Hmm. Sounds like my daughter's Camry. Or my son's LeSabre. Or my Maxima. To each his/her own. Most cars are pretty reliable nowadays. I think we all have that expectation and it works out generally pretty well. That's why the failures really stand out.
@stickguy said:
That poor woman. Having to drive it for all those years?
She absolutely loves the car. She would buy another LaCrosse in a New York second. She speaks of her LaCrosse as others would praise a much much expensive car.
@lemko
I have been shopping for a lower mileage, similar car for a couple of years. I've been watching GM trades along with some other dealers. No Craigslist. People are holding onto the cars like the Malibu and LaCrosse. If dealers do have one it's 125,000 mi and they're still asking a high price. She's got a jewel there.
As for the color, I can't tell from the newer LaCrosse colors on my laptop, but the rich blue may be gone. Cruze, Malibu both have Atlantis blue which is thin metallic and pleasant but not eye catching. There's an amethyst in the LaCrosse, but it's deep. Cruze has a BlueRay which is darker as well. Even pure black is gone; it's replaced by a metallic extra cost black for the GM's I searched. I don't recall that Accords have a good blue even when I was there.
@suydam said:
Hmm. Sounds like my daughter's Camry. Or my son's LeSabre. Or my Maxima. To each his/her own. Most cars are pretty reliable nowadays. I think we all have that expectation and it works out generally pretty well. That's why the failures really stand out.
Agree. Many cars are similar in dependability these days. That's despite the past reputations of some as being more reliable. Things are migrating toward the mean.
All I'm saying, is that perception lags reality. I hate the old saw, "Perception is reality". I think if you told most non-car people about the imports with full-black circles in CR this month, they'd either be surprised or not believe it. Reality changes, but people's perceptions die hard.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
You might enjoy reading the book "Moneyball", about how Billy Beane the GM of the Oakland Athletics, stood baseball on its head. The book is all about perception vs. reality and why all the anecdotes and conventional wisdom of the baseball scouting system SEEMED right but usually weren't. So Billy went to data and got more for less. It's balanced though, as the book also talks about statistics which are based on real data but give a false conclusion. Aha!
Same is true for the stock market. If you go in with perceptions and anecdotes and leave out the data, you'll get creamed eventually, even if you have a lucky streak now and then.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
Same is true for the stock market. If you go in with perceptions and anecdotes and leave out the data, you'll get creamed eventually,
@imidazol97 said:
Those GMs are just terrible!!! Nothing beyond regular maintenance for a car of its age.
Transmission hasn't failed once, let alone 3 times in 100,000 mi. Transmission shifts smoothy without slip. Engine runs smoothly. Starts immediately. No sludge. No unintended acceleration. 200,860 mi..
Is that on an Astro? If so, 200K of riding in one would be more than punishment enough. I'd rather ride that far in an Audi and put up with the repairs!
Some people simply don't care and will drive anything and there is noting wrong with that. My FIL still drives around in a '95 Tahoe with nearly 200k miles on it. It hasn't been perfect, but has been durable overall. But what a POC to drive and much of the electronics has either been fixed or simply doesn't work and hasn't for a long time.
General Motors knew of an issue with its ignition switch several years before it has previously acknowledged.
The company said in a federal filing Wednesday that it discovered an issue with the Saturn Ion ignition switch in 2001 during pre-production development. General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) has previously said it first learned of ignition switch issues in 2004.
The recall includes the Saturn Ion and Sky, as well as the Chevrolet Cobalt and HHR and the Pontiac G5 and Solstice.
...and this on Mary Barra....
If she performs well during this safety investigation, she could reinforce her leadership traits and authority, as well as galvanize GM's management ranks, which face withering competitive and organizational challenges. GM still has much to prove to consumers who recall substandard vehicle models from pre-bankruptcy years. The company also must convince skeptical lenders and investors that it can grow profitably and avoid another financial collapse.
GM has recalled 1.62 million vehicles worldwide, 1.37 million in the U.S., for the faulty ignition switch that can cause the engine to shut down and disable safety systems, including airbags. They are the 2005-07 Chevrolet Cobalt, 2007 Pontiac G5, 2003-07 Saturn Ion, 2006-07 Chevrolet HHR, 2006-07 Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky.
Someone asked about the models. Glad to know my Vibe isn't one of them. I'm surprised there is talk of not honoring it, as my Vibe, which is an '04, had a recall a year or so back that was fixed free of charge. That's a pretty long time out.
@suydam said:
Someone asked about the models. Glad to know my Vibe isn't one of them. I'm surprised there is talk of not honoring it, as my Vibe, which is an '04, had a recall a year or so back that was fixed free of charge. That's a pretty long time out.
Neither my 2007 Cadillac DTS or my wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse are affected. The cars on that list are pretty old and are usually the type that are thrashed to death by now.
tlong, think what you will, but you haven't seen me post a recall since that "gentlemen's agreement" was discussed here. But I will respond to trolling here...that's 'respond', not initiate nor instigate. That's several other folks' jobs here..
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
@robr2 said:
27 people were killed in Pinto fires...
When reading about those Pinto fires, I've often wondered whether the Pinto wagon protected the occupants better than the 2 door and liftback models. Does anyone have information on that?
Re.: Pinto wagon...those were not among the cars affected IIRC.
Thanks for your response.
Back in the day I considered buying a red Pinto wagon with the simulated wood exterior trim and 4-speed manual. Ended up buying a used Montego wagon (with the 351 or 400 c.i. V8 [can't remember now]) instead. It was the biggest gas guzzler I've ever owned; worse than my '72 Olds 98 455 4-door hardtop. The Olds got 14 mpg highway. Probably would have been happier with the Pinto wagon, even though the Montego was a more comfortable family hauler. That Olds looked and drove like a premium luxury car.
If I were a younger man and had the ambition, I would attack how car reliability is gathered and displayed. I think it presents an incomplete and often inaccurate picture. For one thing, I would throw out owner surveys completely--but to do that I'd have to create, or access, new databases for gathering repair and warranty information. I think it might even be possible to predict the future reliability of a car. I think various makes have a genetic history.
Re.: Pinto wagon...those were not among the cars affected IIRC.
I also want to say that, at some point, the Pinto hatchback and 2-door sedan were fixed as well, so they were less likely to go boom. I think by 1977, maybe?
There's always a good turnout of Pintos, and an occasional Bobcat, at the Ford show in Carlisle. I've always wondered if these cars have been retrofitted?
I've often wondered, as well, how many fire deaths were a result of those Falcons and Mustangs that had the "drop in" gas tank, where the top of the tank doubled as the trunk floor. Midsized cars and even some full-sized cars even had these tanks, which would easily spill fuel into the trunk and passenger compartment in the event of a rear-end collision. But, on the Falcons and Mustangs, there was very little crush space back there. And some of those early Falcons, especially, were very lightweight, so I'm sure they had to buckle very easily.
the problem was that the gas tank got penetrated in a rear end collision---some part or bolt---I don't recall particulars---that speared it like a watermelon.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
If I were a younger man and had the ambition, I would attack how car reliability is gathered and displayed. I think it presents an incomplete and often inaccurate picture. For one thing, I would throw out owner surveys completely--but to do that I'd have to create, or access, new databases for gathering repair and warranty information. I think it might even be possible to predict the future reliability of a car. I think various makes have a genetic history.
I agree that owner survey's are generally worthless. I know people who think their vehicle is the greatest in the world as long as it gets them point A to B. Oil leaks, squeak, rattles, and little thinks can break and they never care to fix them or even care they broke at all.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
If I were a younger man and had the ambition, I would attack how car reliability is gathered and displayed. I think it presents an incomplete and often inaccurate picture. For one thing, I would throw out owner surveys completely--
You are right on track. Owner surveys are fiction. Many owners won't admit if their car did have problems because they don't want to admit that the car brand they prefer is not quite perfect. To wit some of the people are happy with a car where as long as the transmission got replaced by the company under warranty despite that the company replaced it with another defective or weak tranny which would also eventually fail.
but to do that I'd have to create, or access, new databases for gathering repair and warranty information. I think it might even be possible to predict the future reliability of a car. I think various makes have a genetic history.
I believe the information needed is already known in the data for the companies and their warranty work. Problems appearing after warranty can be gleaned from other sources. But a problem is that some companies don't have to do recalls for problems by stonewalling while other companies are doing recalls for innocuous problems, such as noisy glove compartment doors.
But the data cannot be collected using convenience survey techniques such as Consumer Reports or some other online groups that have to solicit for volunteers. That's essentially like having the Motorweek folks tell us about cars. It's easy to tell the cars they like by the choices of words as they start the first few sentences of the description. Plus they don't really evaluate cars for most people. I really don't care how much they like the current Corvette or the Lamborghini, etc.. Few of us drive those cars in the rain and snow to get to Krogers.
Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities. Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore it, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts – hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".
General Motors is allowing dealers to offer free loaner cars to worried owners of the vehicles being recalled for a faulty ignition switch that can cause the engine to shut down and disable safety systems, including airbags.
That's unusual, but not unique. Ford Motor, for example, provided loaners when it recalled 2013 Escape crossovers and 2013 Fusion midsize sedans for possible engine fires.
The ignition switch/airbag problem is blamed for 31 crashes and 12 deaths. The number of fatalities was cut by one that had been double-counted.
GM also:
Will give owners additional $500 discounts on new GM vehicles.
Tow disabled recalled cars free.
@uplanderguy said:
Crown Vics had a fire issue when hit from the rear too, IIRC.
Yeah, in the Crown Vic's case, the fuel tank is upright, just behind the rear axle, and there's a deep well behind it. Normally you'd think that having the tank further forward would protect it better, than those flatter tanks that most RWD cars used.
Unfortunately though, when a body-on-frame car gets rear-ended, it often buckles right over the rear axle. And in the Crown Vic's case, the gas tank would get pinched between the well of the trunk and the rear axle.
One reason those Crown Vics made headlines though, is because police cars do tend to get rear-ended at high speed on occasion, when they have pulled people over on the highway. And with the Crown Vic being such a popular police car, they were simply implicated in a lot of high-speed accidents that ruptured the fuel tank.
I would imagine that if you hit a Caprice, or an old Diplomat/Gran Fury, or any older RWD car where the gas tank is behind the axle, at 75 mph, it would have a pretty good chance of spilling fuel and catching fire.
As for the Pinto, yeah its problem was that the gas tank would get popped by a bolt in the rear differential housing or axle, I believe. However, at least they didn't use a drop-in gas tank, as far as I know.
I have a feeling that Crown Vics really didn't blow up any more often than a similar car would. It's just that by the time they were doing it, the internet was so widespread, and the Crown Vic was the car of choice for highway patrols, that it made it seem worse than it really was. In contrast, the Caprice went out about the time I first got introduced to the Internet at work. And Chrysler stopped building cars like this about the time Dubya's Daddy got sworn in.
@imidazol97 :
I have found CR data pretty good. 2001 Rav 4 - had half black dot on something like Interior fit finish, or something like that. Guess what? The dash rattle was a very common problem that they put out a TSB to fix. Brakes on a old Mazda were going through rotors more frequently than other cars - what was in the CR about that year? Black dot on brakes. I have other examples, but that's my experience with CR. People always talk about the Honda V6 automatic tranny problems - CR shows that. Pretty good info, but I also use other sources combined with CR to make my decisions.
@uplanderguy said:
tlong, think what you will, but you haven't seen me post a recall since that "gentlemen's agreement" was discussed here. But I will respond to trolling here...that's 'respond', not initiate nor instigate. That's several other folks' jobs here..
OK uplander, that's fair. I was just razzing you a bit since you were one of the more vocal recall posters in the past! All in fun, glad you're here...
Toyota Motor (NYSE: TM ) , the world's largest automaker, has been doing very well. The company expects record earnings this fiscal year on the back of a weaker yen, low costs of production, and the roll-out of new models. However, the automaker's decisions to recall many vehicles in 2013, and then to start 2014 with another spate of recalls, could hurt Toyota's brand image in the U.S. and abroad. In addition, the recalls of the company's high-profile models, such as the Lexus and the Prius, could lead to market share losses in both the luxury and eco-friendly car segments.
Death counts can be misleading in the midst of a recall. During the Toyota sudden acceleration recall in 2009 and 2010, a widely reported death toll topped 100. But once the government investigated all of the reports, only five deaths were tied to unexpected acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles.
The Center for Auto Safety’s letter said that the 303 victims were in the front seat, where air bags are situated, and had died in nonrear-impact crashes of Cobalts and Ions, in which the air bags did not deploy. That is about 26 percent of a total 1,148 fatalities — including those of back-seat occupants — that involved the same models.
“As knowledgeable observers know, FARS tracks raw data,” Greg Martin, a G.M. spokesman, said. “Without rigorous analysis, it is pure speculation to attempt to draw any meaningful conclusions.”
Comments
I used to know a guy who, for a change of life, got a job driving tractor trailers. And considering he was a bit of a screw-up (totaled his girlfriend's Focus one night when he was driving angry), giving him 20 tons or so to handle is a scary thought in my opinion!
Well, he was visiting the area a few years back, and borrowed his father's F-150. He said that, after getting used to driving a rig, that pickup felt tiny! Guess it's all about perspective.
I've heard that referred to as "GM cars run bad longer than most cars run at all!"
Oddly enough, when it comes to overall death rates, Pintos actually rated slightly better than average for small cars at the time. So you actually had less of a chance of dying in a Pinto than in the average small car of the era. But IF you died, it was more likely to be from fire, I guess!
I've often wondered, in those Pinto fires, if any occupants of the car that did the rear-ending ever died in the resulting fire? There's an old crash test video where they run a '71 Impala into a Pinto, and the ensuing fireball appears to engulf the Impala moreso than the Pinto.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgOxWPGsJNY
Too lazy to look. Can you list the models affected?
The problem with "old GM" was that even when it knew there was an issue, getting the organization to move was about impossible. Remember Lutz's rant about taking a bunch of months and a bunch of committees just to approve a Christmas card?
The jury is still out on whether GM can streamline enough to deal with situations like this. Doesn't sound like they are anywhere near there yet.
That said, this might be a good time to pick up some stock and hold it for a couple of years.
27 people were killed in Pinto fires - the article I found doesn't say if they were all passengers in the Pinto.
The same article noted that in addition to the fire, the damage to the body often buckled the body and prevented the doors from opening thus trapping the passengers.
Try a thought experiment:
question 1: Would American automakers trade their reputation for a Japanese one? A European one?
question 2: Would a Japanese automaker trade their reputation for an American one? A European one?
My two cents:
Answer 1: Yes, in most cases although not for every market niche. And duh Shiftright--Chrysler has pretty much traded their reputation for a European one, and Ford HAS a European reputation already
Answer 2: Aside from full-size pickups, I don't think they would; and no, not for a European one.
Here's to nine trouble-free years! Happy anniversary to my wife's 2005 Buick Lacrosse purchased new March 12, 2005!
That poor woman. Having to drive it for all those years?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Those GMs are just terrible!!! Nothing beyond regular maintenance for a car of its age.
Transmission hasn't failed once, let alone 3 times in 100,000 mi. Transmission shifts smoothy without slip. Engine runs smoothly. Starts immediately. No sludge. No unintended acceleration. 200,860 mi..
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Hmm. Sounds like my daughter's Camry. Or my son's LeSabre. Or my Maxima. To each his/her own. Most cars are pretty reliable nowadays. I think we all have that expectation and it works out generally pretty well. That's why the failures really stand out.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
Ah, you guys are just 'anecdotal'. Me too.
She absolutely loves the car. She would buy another LaCrosse in a New York second. She speaks of her LaCrosse as others would praise a much much expensive car.
Well at least now we know why you two are together!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
@lemko
I have been shopping for a lower mileage, similar car for a couple of years. I've been watching GM trades along with some other dealers. No Craigslist. People are holding onto the cars like the Malibu and LaCrosse. If dealers do have one it's 125,000 mi and they're still asking a high price. She's got a jewel there.
As for the color, I can't tell from the newer LaCrosse colors on my laptop, but the rich blue may be gone. Cruze, Malibu both have Atlantis blue which is thin metallic and pleasant but not eye catching. There's an amethyst in the LaCrosse, but it's deep. Cruze has a BlueRay which is darker as well. Even pure black is gone; it's replaced by a metallic extra cost black for the GM's I searched. I don't recall that Accords have a good blue even when I was there.
Agree. Many cars are similar in dependability these days. That's despite the past reputations of some as being more reliable. Things are migrating toward the mean.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Nonetheless, if you are in business, you use statistical analysis, not anecdotes.
All I'm saying, is that perception lags reality. I hate the old saw, "Perception is reality". I think if you told most non-car people about the imports with full-black circles in CR this month, they'd either be surprised or not believe it. Reality changes, but people's perceptions die hard.
You might enjoy reading the book "Moneyball", about how Billy Beane the GM of the Oakland Athletics, stood baseball on its head. The book is all about perception vs. reality and why all the anecdotes and conventional wisdom of the baseball scouting system SEEMED right but usually weren't. So Billy went to data and got more for less. It's balanced though, as the book also talks about statistics which are based on real data but give a false conclusion. Aha!
Same is true for the stock market. If you go in with perceptions and anecdotes and leave out the data, you'll get creamed eventually, even if you have a lucky streak now and then.
Right on.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Is that on an Astro? If so, 200K of riding in one would be more than punishment enough. I'd rather ride that far in an Audi and put up with the repairs!
Some people simply don't care and will drive anything and there is noting wrong with that. My FIL still drives around in a '95 Tahoe with nearly 200k miles on it. It hasn't been perfect, but has been durable overall. But what a POC to drive and much of the electronics has either been fixed or simply doesn't work and hasn't for a long time.
General Motors knew of an issue with its ignition switch several years before it has previously acknowledged.
The company said in a federal filing Wednesday that it discovered an issue with the Saturn Ion ignition switch in 2001 during pre-production development. General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) has previously said it first learned of ignition switch issues in 2004.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/12/autos/general-motors-ignition-switch-recall/index.html?iid=HP_LN
The recall includes the Saturn Ion and Sky, as well as the Chevrolet Cobalt and HHR and the Pontiac G5 and Solstice.
...and this on Mary Barra....
If she performs well during this safety investigation, she could reinforce her leadership traits and authority, as well as galvanize GM's management ranks, which face withering competitive and organizational challenges. GM still has much to prove to consumers who recall substandard vehicle models from pre-bankruptcy years. The company also must convince skeptical lenders and investors that it can grow profitably and avoid another financial collapse.
Perception?:)
For LemCo:
GM has recalled 1.62 million vehicles worldwide, 1.37 million in the U.S., for the faulty ignition switch that can cause the engine to shut down and disable safety systems, including airbags. They are the 2005-07 Chevrolet Cobalt, 2007 Pontiac G5, 2003-07 Saturn Ion, 2006-07 Chevrolet HHR, 2006-07 Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky.
Wow, how we've retreated in not rehashing recalls on this site.
Gotta love the hypocrisy! LOL.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Someone asked about the models. Glad to know my Vibe isn't one of them. I'm surprised there is talk of not honoring it, as my Vibe, which is an '04, had a recall a year or so back that was fixed free of charge. That's a pretty long time out.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
It's a recall, so I'm not sure why there's talk of "not honoring it". That's hyperbole. Hard to believe one would find that here.
I don't think you ever observed that.
Neither my 2007 Cadillac DTS or my wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse are affected. The cars on that list are pretty old and are usually the type that are thrashed to death by now.
tlong, think what you will, but you haven't seen me post a recall since that "gentlemen's agreement" was discussed here. But I will respond to trolling here...that's 'respond', not initiate nor instigate. That's several other folks' jobs here..
When reading about those Pinto fires, I've often wondered whether the Pinto wagon protected the occupants better than the 2 door and liftback models. Does anyone have information on that?
Congratulations! How many miles on that LaCrosse?
It just occurred to me, upon viewing that photo, that the front resembles that of the last generation Riviera.
That is a great color combo on the LaCrosse, lemko.
Re.: Pinto wagon...those were not among the cars affected IIRC.
Thanks for your response.
Back in the day I considered buying a red Pinto wagon with the simulated wood exterior trim and 4-speed manual. Ended up buying a used Montego wagon (with the 351 or 400 c.i. V8 [can't remember now]) instead. It was the biggest gas guzzler I've ever owned; worse than my '72 Olds 98 455 4-door hardtop. The Olds got 14 mpg highway. Probably would have been happier with the Pinto wagon, even though the Montego was a more comfortable family hauler. That Olds looked and drove like a premium luxury car.
If I were a younger man and had the ambition, I would attack how car reliability is gathered and displayed. I think it presents an incomplete and often inaccurate picture. For one thing, I would throw out owner surveys completely--but to do that I'd have to create, or access, new databases for gathering repair and warranty information. I think it might even be possible to predict the future reliability of a car. I think various makes have a genetic history.
I also want to say that, at some point, the Pinto hatchback and 2-door sedan were fixed as well, so they were less likely to go boom. I think by 1977, maybe?
There's always a good turnout of Pintos, and an occasional Bobcat, at the Ford show in Carlisle. I've always wondered if these cars have been retrofitted?
I've often wondered, as well, how many fire deaths were a result of those Falcons and Mustangs that had the "drop in" gas tank, where the top of the tank doubled as the trunk floor. Midsized cars and even some full-sized cars even had these tanks, which would easily spill fuel into the trunk and passenger compartment in the event of a rear-end collision. But, on the Falcons and Mustangs, there was very little crush space back there. And some of those early Falcons, especially, were very lightweight, so I'm sure they had to buckle very easily.
the problem was that the gas tank got penetrated in a rear end collision---some part or bolt---I don't recall particulars---that speared it like a watermelon.
Crown Vics had a fire issue when hit from the rear too, IIRC.
I agree that owner survey's are generally worthless. I know people who think their vehicle is the greatest in the world as long as it gets them point A to B. Oil leaks, squeak, rattles, and little thinks can break and they never care to fix them or even care they broke at all.
At 75+ mph though.
You are right on track. Owner surveys are fiction. Many owners won't admit if their car did have problems because they don't want to admit that the car brand they prefer is not quite perfect. To wit some of the people are happy with a car where as long as the transmission got replaced by the company under warranty despite that the company replaced it with another defective or weak tranny which would also eventually fail.
I believe the information needed is already known in the data for the companies and their warranty work. Problems appearing after warranty can be gleaned from other sources. But a problem is that some companies don't have to do recalls for problems by stonewalling while other companies are doing recalls for innocuous problems, such as noisy glove compartment doors.
But the data cannot be collected using convenience survey techniques such as Consumer Reports or some other online groups that have to solicit for volunteers. That's essentially like having the Motorweek folks tell us about cars. It's easy to tell the cars they like by the choices of words as they start the first few sentences of the description. Plus they don't really evaluate cars for most people. I really don't care how much they like the current Corvette or the Lamborghini, etc.. Few of us drive those cars in the rain and snow to get to Krogers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities. Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore it, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts – hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".
General Motors is allowing dealers to offer free loaner cars to worried owners of the vehicles being recalled for a faulty ignition switch that can cause the engine to shut down and disable safety systems, including airbags.
That's unusual, but not unique. Ford Motor, for example, provided loaners when it recalled 2013 Escape crossovers and 2013 Fusion midsize sedans for possible engine fires.
The ignition switch/airbag problem is blamed for 31 crashes and 12 deaths. The number of fatalities was cut by one that had been double-counted.
GM also:
So did 1973-87 Chevrolet trucks with the help of a few model rocket engines!
Yeah, in the Crown Vic's case, the fuel tank is upright, just behind the rear axle, and there's a deep well behind it. Normally you'd think that having the tank further forward would protect it better, than those flatter tanks that most RWD cars used.
Unfortunately though, when a body-on-frame car gets rear-ended, it often buckles right over the rear axle. And in the Crown Vic's case, the gas tank would get pinched between the well of the trunk and the rear axle.
One reason those Crown Vics made headlines though, is because police cars do tend to get rear-ended at high speed on occasion, when they have pulled people over on the highway. And with the Crown Vic being such a popular police car, they were simply implicated in a lot of high-speed accidents that ruptured the fuel tank.
I would imagine that if you hit a Caprice, or an old Diplomat/Gran Fury, or any older RWD car where the gas tank is behind the axle, at 75 mph, it would have a pretty good chance of spilling fuel and catching fire.
As for the Pinto, yeah its problem was that the gas tank would get popped by a bolt in the rear differential housing or axle, I believe. However, at least they didn't use a drop-in gas tank, as far as I know.
I have a feeling that Crown Vics really didn't blow up any more often than a similar car would. It's just that by the time they were doing it, the internet was so widespread, and the Crown Vic was the car of choice for highway patrols, that it made it seem worse than it really was. In contrast, the Caprice went out about the time I first got introduced to the Internet at work. And Chrysler stopped building cars like this about the time Dubya's Daddy got sworn in.
OK uplander, that's fair. I was just razzing you a bit since you were one of the more vocal recall posters in the past! All in fun, glad you're here...
Toyota Motor (NYSE: TM ) , the world's largest automaker, has been doing very well. The company expects record earnings this fiscal year on the back of a weaker yen, low costs of production, and the roll-out of new models. However, the automaker's decisions to recall many vehicles in 2013, and then to start 2014 with another spate of recalls, could hurt Toyota's brand image in the U.S. and abroad. In addition, the recalls of the company's high-profile models, such as the Lexus and the Prius, could lead to market share losses in both the luxury and eco-friendly car segments.
Researcher claims 303 deaths from GM airbag failure
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/03/13/gm-recall-death-nhtsa-airbag/6401257/
Death counts can be misleading in the midst of a recall. During the Toyota sudden acceleration recall in 2009 and 2010, a widely reported death toll topped 100. But once the government investigated all of the reports, only five deaths were tied to unexpected acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/business/gm-air-bag-failures-linked-to-303-deaths.html?hp&_r=0
The Center for Auto Safety’s letter said that the 303 victims were in the front seat, where air bags are situated, and had died in nonrear-impact crashes of Cobalts and Ions, in which the air bags did not deploy. That is about 26 percent of a total 1,148 fatalities — including those of back-seat occupants — that involved the same models.
“As knowledgeable observers know, FARS tracks raw data,” Greg Martin, a G.M. spokesman, said. “Without rigorous analysis, it is pure speculation to attempt to draw any meaningful conclusions.”