"Heck, I remember when brake discs were solid like a manhole cover and could be resurfaced several times. Now, they're wafer-thin and can warp at the drop of a hat!"
Lemko, I too remember that experience.
But hey, there we go, talking about "the bad old days" again! LOL
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I'll take wafer-thin rotors with brakes that actually stop the car and provide good pedal feel.
That said, I haven't had to replace a set of rotors in a long time. One thing, I think trucks/SUVs simply have beefy rotors. The rotors on my Expedition look like manhole covers and they're vented front and back. At 126k, I've only replaced the pads once. Same with the Suburban I had. Plus I do quite a bit of towing. Brakes just haven't been an issue.
Same with my wife's cars. She's never had to replace brake rotors on any of her company cars, nor had much of an issue with rotor warp.
> because redlining the Ecotec nets in more four-banger thrash than its competition
As in all the political speeches we suffer these days, there's a weasel word that changes what is being discussed: "redlining."
I have to admit that if the car is being accelerated at 3/4 or more throttle, I CAN HEAR THE ENGINE. Horrors!
I don't know how Honda or toyota keep their engines from making noises when running at high rpms, but apparently they do to the satisfaction of posters here, or at least in their memory of the noises they don't hear. :grin
Actually, I can't remember having floored my Cobalt when I've had it home to drive it. I don't usually drive at full throttle and it merges really nicely on the interstates at part throttles when I've driven it during the last 3 months. I did get some miles on it when I picked it up in Columbus and brought it home to have tires replaced.
Maybe I should be asking if the other _perfect_ cars have to have tires replaced? Or is that a fault that only the lowly GM vehicles suffer? -- with all the competition never having to replace tires? :grin
Actually the tires had lots of tread left, but I wanted good tires for Imid.Jr driving in Columbus while at OSU. And having driven the car with the OEM tires worn down and with the new Michelins, I learned the OEM tires were making _noise_ on most pavements driven at speed. I assume the Civic has silent tires (not likely compared to the Accords I've ridden in and test drove in 03). :grin
Yeah, I had a feeling you were being sarcastic there. We need those emotorcons back!
I do think cars were better, in some ways in the old days. But the advantages of today's cars far outweigh their negatives. For instance, the sheetmetal on my 2012 Ram is going to dent much more easily than it would on my 1957 DeSoto. But, I'd much rather get into an accident in the Ram, than the DeSoto!
Unless, it's one of those little 5 mph fender-benders that wouldn't even faze the DeSoto, but would probably do a few grand worth of damage on the Ram :-P
Some cars sound nice and quiet when you're inside them, but don't sound so hot when you're on the outside. For instance, I hate the way my Dad's 2003 Regal sounds, and my 2000 Park Ave isn't so great-sounding, either. But, inside the cars, they're so well-insulated you hardly hear them.
I also remember test-driving a 2002 Altima, when that design first came out. That car was eerily quiet at highway speeds, but when idling I thought it sounded a bit thrashy. I didn't floor it, though, so I dunno how they sound when you stomp on them.
My buddy's 2006 Xterra sounds okay though...no complaints there. I'm actually a bit disappointed in how my 2012 Ram sounds. Its Hemi just doesn't have that grumble of V-8 engines from those bygone years. It will walk any car I've ever owned like a dog, but it just doesn't have that muscular sound.
Of course, my hearing might be a bit distorted these days, since I'm used to hearing a '67 Catalina with Turbo Thrush mufflers that can set off car alarms if it gets too close, a '79 New Yorker with no muffler at all, where I've had people pull up and ask me if I had a big-block put in, etc...
Your friends Xterra, I believe is the 3.0 V6? I don't know why but the last one I was in was overly harsh to me. Sounded like it had dirt in the engine... Ironically, I drove a Pathfinder of that vintage with the 3.5 and it was ballsy sounding. A nice, throaty, linear sound all the way to redline. After my test drive, I was in the parking lot and blipped the throttle a couple of times while parked, and I thought I was in a 5.0 Mustang it sounded so good.
Still my favorite V6 remains the J35 in the Acura TL/TL-S and the whatever V6 is in the last generation Toyotas such as the RAV4 which I drove.
The Honda motor is about 20 years old now but is buttery smooth and loves to rev. And it's extremely durable as well, it's easy to rack 200k on one without more than oil changes and Belt/WP replacement over that time period.
The Toyota tho is a different animal all together. It is sewing machine smooth and quieter than the Honda, the power in the RAV4 I drove was disturbingly linear. I don't think I've ever had an SUV sneak up on triple digits without me even realizing it. I kicked that thing down into passing gear on the highway doing about the legal limit to go around a Semi and as soon as I looked down, I was over 90 and climbing fast. This one had zero drama tho, there wasn't much you could hear going on under the hood...
Your Desoto may be more dent resistant than your Ram, but would you agree that your Ram should be much more rust resistant? Neither dents nor rust are good, but you bring up vulnerability to body damage. Now that's far more serious than dings and dents.
Any guess as to which is more costly, easily damage panels and parts vs. vulnerability to rust? I don't know the answer to that. I imagine there are a lot of variables, but a lot of post mid '50s - late '70s cars, especially, were traded or scrapped early, with relatively low mileage, due to excessive rust.
>I don't know how Honda or toyota keep their engines from making noises when running at high rpms, but apparently they do to the satisfaction of posters here, or at least in their memory of the noises they don't hear. :grin <
I'm not sure where you get these ideas. I don't know anyone who claims that a Civic or Matrix is a quiet car. I have a Pontiac Vibe, essentially a Matrix, and the thing sounds like a B-52 when it accelerates. I can't talk on a cellphone if I'm in it. It's not why I got the car. People don't buy small cars for the quiet, but for fuel economy, functionality, and overall reliability. The only "quiet" small car I've ever been in is the Nissan Versa with the CVT. But I bought the Vibe because its hatch was more versatile, and its reliability ratings are stellar. The Cobalt may have been a great car. I have no idea. But there has to be a reason it was replaced. I actually think the Cruze is a nice-looking little car and if I were in the market for a small sedan, I would check it out.
For a quiet car you go to the midsize segment. Camry, and now Accord, they are quiet cars.
"I'll take wafer-thin rotors with brakes that actually stop the car and provide good pedal feel"
We're not talking disc versus drum; we're talking discs that had meaty rotors on even the cheapest cars, compared to the past couple decades. Almost any magazine long-term review will make note of warped rotors, even on high-end sedans, after as little as 10 or 15K miles.
It absolutely didn't used to be that way. It's all about weight saving now.
And if 'good pedal feel' with wafer-thin rotors means pulsating, which is often the case, no thank you.
I always tell my dealer to use a torque-stick when tightening lug nuts. One guy gets assigned my cars, and I know him, so I believe it. Have never had warped rotors on the Cobalt. Did on the PT, which was a rental car with 45.8K miles before we bought it.
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The Camry is definitely quiet. As for the Accord, the powertrains are refined, but they definitely have road noise.
My dad's v6 Accord and my MIL v6 Camry make my wife's '13 Taurus v6 sound like a meat grinder. It's very noticeable to me.
I haven't been in many 4cyl cars lately. But now that I'm accustom to a v8, I don't like any of them unless they are direct injected and turbo charged.
And it's not like my Expedition is fast. It's several seconds slower to say 60 than my wife's Taurus, but it feels far more powerful around town (lots of low rpm torque and shorter gearing), it can at least accelerate without downshifting all the time.
One thing I hate on newer cars is tire noise as they age. I don't remember tires being like that until lately, either.
Our Malibu, with 32K miles, has noisy tires. My Cobalt has 29K on the set on the car now, which were the same tires as equipped when new (part of the XFE deal), and they have remained very quiet.
The noisy Malibu tires are Firestone FR-somethings. The Cobalt tires are Goodyear.
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I've definitely noticed tires getting noisy as they age. Not on my full-Size SUVs, but in my wife's company cars. Seems once the tires hit 30-40k they get noticeably louder.
But I rotate at every oil change, and that seems to help. I got 70k out of the OEM Continentals on my Expedition and I have almost 60k on the Michelins and they still have a lot of tread and are still quiet. But the Expedition is quiet overall. Being BOF and having lots of insulation does isolate a lot of road noise. The Taurus sounds and feels like a pop can in comparison.
I'm not at all impressed with the Hankook tires on my wife's '10 and '13 Taurus. Obviously, they are just cheap OEM.
As for brakes, I've read the same reviews and have seen rotors warping at low miles. I've never had that problem. Now I have had rotors warp after being machined before. I do notice a slight pulse now in my Expedition, but at 127k and being turned once, I'm not complaining as it's not bad enough to mess with. Plus the rotors for the Expe are not cheap.
"But, I'd much rather get into an accident in the Ram, than the DeSoto!"
That's always a possibility of course, but...and I'll probably jinx it by saying this...I'm 55, drive a lot, always have, and have never been in anything but a fender-bender...and that was in my driveway when my Lark rolled back into my six-week old Cobalt. Did $800 damage to the Lark, including NOS parts, and did $3,500 or more to the Cobalt.
The simplicity of old cars is appealing to me, as much as the fun memories and preserving of period history/culture. Tell you what though, with today's distracted drivers, I'd be compelled to add a CHMSL to whatever old car I'd buy going forward.
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" It's value, low-cost maintenance, and a competent dealer. Plus, for many reasons, I prefer to buy an American brand."
I can't argue with that. Personally I don't like buying the same vehicle or manufacturer one after another. I guess I'm weird in that I like change and variety.
I'm thinking about a Dodge/Ram for my next vehicle. I'm waiting for the '14 Durango to hit the lots. I want to drive it with the Hemi/8pseed. It has enough tow rating to tow our boat. I just don't know if it's big enough overall.
If I doesn't work for me, I'll look at the Ram, Silverado, or a used f150 or another Expedition (but I really would like somelthing different).
I'd love a diesel SUV from the Germans, but I don't want to spend that much and frankly I'm a bit scared of the potential maintenance costs.
Nah, by 2006 the Xterra had a 4.0 with something like 270 hp. I think it came out for 2005, but not sure now.
It's a gutsy beast, but a bit thirsty. However, the Xterra is heavier than it looks. Something like 4200 lb, and 4wd. It'll get 21-22 on the highway, but in mixed driving he's seeing around 16-17 I think.
I guess "Thirsty" is all relative though. My 2012 Ram, on its last tank got around 11.7 mpg. That's its worst showing so far.
For some reason, most BOF mid-size SUVs are nearly as thirsty as the full size models.
My 01 Nissan Pathfinder was just as thirsty as my Suburban and expedition on the hwy, it would get a bit better around town, but it weighed a lot less.
I never saw much more than 16-17 hwy, but rarely under 14 either. OTOH, I can get 16-18 mpg on the highway in the Expedition (Suburban was about the same). But around town, 11-12 mpg is the norm.
I think some of it is gearing. The Nissan simply ran more RPM at highway speeds. I really did like the VQ 3.5. It had tons of torque at low to mid range rpm. Plus it was geared to take advantage of it. It could tow my boat better in 3rd and 4th gear than my Suburban could. Mainly because, one the Suburban was much heavier, and two GM has a knack for gearing that's way to tall. Particularly with the old 4 speed.
Really it's the same with GMs 6 speed too. Comparing a 6 speed suburban to my Expedition, the 5.4 has more torque at lower rpm vs. the 5.3 yet, the Suburban's gearing is taller. I've got a 3.73 rear end that's not an option on the Suburban and some of the gears in GM's 6 speed are taller too. It's no wonder why the Expedition feels like it has more towing power.
The new Silverado uses 3.08 gears as standard, that's crazy IMO for a tow vehicle.
I see this headline about BMW drivers going on and on and on. Will add my two cents, but about different type of vehicle. Maybe all of this belongs on the Inconsiderate Drivers thread.
If I had kept a log and data over the years, it would be drivers of mini or compact pickups that are the worst as a category at going slow, blocking traffic.
Sadly, stereotypes seem often routed in at least a little bit of fact. I often see BMW and large-Benz owners speeding and darting between lanes, not uncommonly with phones glued to their head.
On the flip side, why is it that drivers of high-performance cars (including Corvettes) always drive so damn slow?
Same with pickup trucks with contractors driving, sipping coffee while they crawl to the first job of the day.
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edit- outta respect for Mr Shiftright's subject line alteration.. mine was the BMW one, which I didn't even notice, as is often the case on long chats..
No two 'identical' engines coming off an assembly line will have exactly the same balance as the one potentially that is beside it. It is for this reason that some models within the same brand might feel smoother than their neighbour's 'identical' car.
That said, there are certain brands that have discovered and perfected, not only a potentially smoother (more balanced engine design regardless of its configuration) running engine than a competitor's, but also manage to manufacture a level of consistency of that build quality on the line. This is far from being by chance or accident. Honda comes to mind as being a bit superior in this area even to some of the best (or rather higher-end) EU efforts. In these areas, NA build efforts have never *yet* been in the same class. Smooth enough, by all means though. One area that NA builds are superior at, is isolating the NVH from the occupants. And I would give the nod to GM for this over Ford or Chrysler, but even non high-end EU brands like VW are also quite capable in this area and often manage to do so while retaining superior traits like steering feel.
Regarding the 05 rental Corolla feeling less than smooth, I'd say this is an anomaly more than any expected norm. Who knows why it was a rough one. Those 1.8s have been the same design for years...in use still today, and of course most would say well overdue to be replaced. While they are not as potentially smooth as a Honda engine, they are still pretty respectable in that area. Remember back when GM brought out their "Quad 4", (I think the name was)? Remember how rough and raucous it ran? It may have had a lot of ba!!s but compared to almost any other similar displacement competitor's 4 cylinder it was the engine that brought about the expression sounds like a can of bolts being shaken, and the only way to exacerbate that, was to increase RPMS.
I've owned an 03 Matrix (had that 1.8 Corolla engine) and I distinctly recall it being 'relatively' quiet for what it was..(a wagon so it has an uphill battle in interior db levels right from the get-go) for only the first couple years. Then it got noticeably noisier inside. Mind you, still a lot quieter than my abusive CRV is. But in reading posts here lately, I am interested to read that maybe tire wear was/is behind it. I thought maybe the sound-deadening foam or whatever, had aged prematurely in the Matrix. I traded it before wearing out its first set of Good Year GAs if I recall.
Honest question, just curious. Is th Cobalt's idle refinement present throughout the entire rev range? If it is, I wonder why GM didn't use that engine instead of the other harsh mills they have?
All engines have an RPM area that they are designed to run in and be the best that they can be at all things averaged out. Transmission and final drive gearing complements the original design of the engine built for its intended vehicle that's going to power.. and the target consumer for that vehicle.
I believe the claims that the Cobalt was the most peaceful of those 3 cars on that 600 mile return. It is irrelevant that its price point was less. That just makes it a bargain if also fulfills the other duties/expectations you have for the it over the number of years you plan to own it.
In early 2012 98,000 Cobalt coupes from the 2005–06 model years were recalled after it was discovered they did not meet federal safety requirements because of a lack of adequate padding in a specific area of the vehicle's trim. This resulted in an unacceptable vulnerability to head injuries, though GM claimed the vulnerability would only affect motorists not wearing a seat belt. On March 2, 2010, GM announced a recall of 1.3 million compact cars in North America, including the Chevrolet Cobalt, because of power steering problems. GM plans on fixing older models before fixing current models, as the car was replaced by the Chevrolet Cruze in late 2010. The Pontiac G5 and its international variants were also affected, though GM had already ended production of the Pontiac brand by that point. The following recall is due to extreme heat causing damage to the plastic fuel pump lines. The recall is only for states in the southern part of the U.S.A. On September 28, 2012, GM announced a recall of 40,859 cars including the Chevrolet Cobalt from the 2007-09 model year because of a potential fuel leak.
Cobalt Safety
According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) the Cobalt receives an overall top score of "Good" for front collisions. However, it receives a "Poor" overall score for side impacts without side curtain airbags, and an "Acceptable" overall score with side curtain airbags. In 2008 side curtain airbags became standard but the Cobalt's structure remains the same and consequently in structure/safety category of the IIHS's side impact test the Cobalt receives a "Marginal" score. Side airbags are limited to the curtain type, torso type side airbags are unavailable.According to the IIHS's injury measurements taken from the side impact test the driver's torso is given a "Marginal" score.
Thanks for your always-positive and always up-to-date additions to whatever conversations are being had. I'm reminded of "Debbie Downer" on Saturday Night Live (Rachel Dratch character).
My '08 had the power steering recall and a campaign for potential sticky ignition keys, warrantied for up to ten years...and even after the bankruptcy! LOL
Should I list Toyota recalls of the past five years? Or Hyundai and Kia? I don't think we'd want to rehash those. That is one area for certain where Toyota "leads".
I'll never forget the look of Toyota's N.A. president deferring almost all recall questions to Mr. Toyoda during questioning.
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I don't know anyone who claims that a Civic or Matrix is a quiet car.
I think most of the noise in a car like the Civic is from the road noise and wind noise, not engine noise. The engine can be very refined and yet the car can still be noisy.
"I believe the claims that the Cobalt was the most peaceful of those 3 cars on that 600 mile return. It is irrelevant that its price point was less. That just makes it a bargain if also fulfills the other duties/expectations you have for the it over the number of years you plan to own it."
Completely disagree that a quality over other cars that cost more is 'irrelevant'..particularly one that was built in the U.S. by (gasp) U.A.W. workers. It was an unexpected thing to enjoy in this low-buck car...like the trunk shocks that don't impinge on trunk room, and the hood that holds itself up without a prop. Small, pleasantly unexpected things in that price class.
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Agreed, Hondas in general have been criticized for road noise for as long as I have owned them. It's a tradeoff for the handling differences between it and say, a comparable Toyota. In my experience, it always comes down to the not-so-great Michelin tires that they put on them from the factory. A tire change makes a huge difference in ride quality, noise and road holding.
I changed out the RE-01's on my S2k a few years ago for some Dunlops and what a huge difference. Just so much smoother and less harsh over bumps. Love them so much that both of my Subies are running on Dunlops now...
As I recall, didn't the Cobalt have a pretty good track record when it came to recalls tho? Only one that stood out to me was the power steering problems but otherwise it was a pretty solid car. Heck it was better than the Cruze which is now being investigated for its 8th! recall.
Oh snap.
Safety tho, ya... not so good.
The Cobalt SS is a good find tho if you want a hot compact. Finding an unmolested one is probably next to impossible...
IIRC, you mentioned with your GM card rebates along with other incentives you bought your Cobalt for a fairly low price.
I've been looking for a small car for my daughter and I have looked up Cobalts in autotrader and man, even with high miles they are not cheap (seems everything under 100k miles commands top dollar asking price anyway). I wonder if you could sell it for nearly what you paid for it.
I've been looking at '09 Cobalt sedans for my younger daughter, and I can't find one with under 60K miles for under about $9K...way more than I want to spend.
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"I've been looking at '09 Cobalt sedans for my younger daughter, and I can't find one with under 60K miles for under about $9K...way more than I want to spend."
"U.S. and Korean auto makers are winning over younger buyers in the U.S. at the expense of Japanese brands, according to registration data compiled by R.L. Polk & Co.
From the first half of 2009 through the first half of 2013, Ford, Chevrolet, Buick, Hyundai and Kia have gained market share among 18-34 year old buyers."
Ah my prediction of many years ago came true--I said that people will start buying American cars again once many of the people who had memories of them in the 1980s grew too old to drive or were dead.
I keep telling my son his next car has to be a small 4 cyl because he is always just driving around. Yet they are asking way too much for them and they usually have high miles on them. After fixing a few things, my other son's V6 auto Mustang got me 30 mpg on my daily work commute over the last month. It may not be safe as some but 30 mpg will challenge most 4 cyls and the value of it has changed little in 8 yrs and 83k miles. He was only hit once so far in the year he got it. a Passat or jetta hatchback rear ended him. The then new VW was totalled and the Mustang just had a tiny hole in the rr bumper.
the power in the RAV4 I drove was disturbingly linear. I don't think I've ever had an SUV sneak up on triple digits without me even realizing it. I kicked that thing down into passing gear on the highway doing about the legal limit to go around a Semi and as soon as I looked down, I was over 90 and climbing fast.
Back around 2010, I drove a RAV4 with the V6. If you jumped it hard at lower speeds, the torque steer was horrific. But out on the highway, with part throttle, it would really move. The speed did "sneak up on you". If they still made the RAV4 with the V6, I probably would have bought one by now.
"As for the Accord, the powertrains are refined, but they definitely have road noise."
The Accord has had higher than average road noise for decades. But for the 2013 generation of Accord, Honda finally listened and fixed this. The Accord is now a quiet car, with little road noise. My 2013 Accord is a lot quieter than my 2008 Accord.
"...Hondas in general have been criticized for road noise for as long as I have owned them."
That was true for a long time, but it's changed for 2013. Honda put major work and $ into both the 2013 Civic and 2013 Accord to make them as quiet as the best of the competition. See this review of the Civic:
"The 2013's interior exhibits less wind and road noise thanks to a thicker windshield, a stiffer front subframe and additional sound-proofing. A standard carpeted trunk lid finishes the previous bare sheet metal nicely while minimizing unwanted road noise from the rear."
Better than the previous set of data for the last vehicle.
Safety/Recalls
The current eighth-generation Civic sedan's crash test performance has been rated highly by both the US Government's NHTSA[20] and the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The IIHS awarded the Civic sedan with a rating of "Good" on both frontal and side impact crash tests[21] and lists the Civic as the second-best 2007 small car in overall crashworthiness.[22] The Civic coupe is rated "Acceptable" in the side impact test.[23]
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) Crash Test Ratings[20]
Frontal Impact: 5 stars.svg
Side Impact Front Seat: 4 stars.svg
Side Impact Rear Seat: 5 stars.svg
Rollover: 4 stars.svg
Honda Motor Co said on Friday July 31, 2009 that it is recalling 440,000 vehicles sold in the United States, including some of its best-selling Accord and Civic models for a potentially lethal airbag defect.[24]
Honda said that the airbag inflators in some of its top-selling sedans can rupture because of too much air pressure causing metal fragments to shoot through the airbag and strike vehicle occupants.
One fatality and a number of injuries have been linked to the defect, Honda spokesman Sage Marie said.
The recall covers certain 2001 and 2002 Accords, 2001 Civics and some 2002 and 2003 model Acura TL sedans. The inflator for the driver's side airbag is the defective component on the affected vehicles.
Honda said owners of those models can check to see if their vehicle is covered by the recall by
The Japanese automaker said it was encouraging owners to wait until they received a recall notice to go to a dealership and have the inflator for the steering-wheel airbag replaced.
Honda had originally announced that it would recall some 2001 Accord and Civic sedans for the defect in November 2009. Since that time, Service Bulletin 08-093 has been expanded to cover several VINs in the 2001–2002 Accord coupe and sedan, the 01-02 Civic coupe and sedan, one 2003 Civic, the 02-03 CRV, the 2002 Odyssey, and one 2003 Pilot.
There must be something about airbags from that early 2000s era. I had a similar recall a few years ago for my '01 Maxima. Toyota had them recently for their '03-04 vehicles, which included my '04 Pontiac Vibe.
-The Toyota Matrix, officially referred to as the Toyota Corolla Matrix, is a compact hatchback manufactured by Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada in Cambridge, Ontario and derived from the Toyota Corolla. Introduced in 2002 as a 2003 model, the Matrix is the result of a joint venture between Toyota and General Motors, with the GM version being the Pontiac Vibe, which was assembled by New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc-
Before the Matrix came out, I think they just had a regular small wagon. I know someone who has a 1993 Corolla wagon. According to Wikipedia though, the wagon was dropped, in the North American market at least, with the 1998 redesign.
A Honda owner who actually experienced a transmission issue (rare, I did), or an AC failure (very rare, I haven't), wouldn't even be troubled by it, for if they owned a Dodge in their past, they'd of already experienced a premature transmission failure, A/C failure, and many more items and things.
Frankly, Chrysler set the bar so low that it would be hard for anyone to disappoint me.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Well, I have some friends, a married couple, who went from a 200K+ 1978 Malibu Classic and a '76 AMC Hornet wagon, to a 1994 Civic, that ended up being so bad it sent them running and crying back to GM, where they bought a 1998 Saturn S-series!
Sad thing is, I actually recommended that Civic to them. The Neon hadn't come out yet and Chrysler was still pushing Sundances and Shadows. Chevy had the Cavalier and Ford had the Escort. The Civic seemed like a lot more car than any of those, and also seemed more substantial than a Corolla or Sentra of the time. And back then, nobody took Hyundai seriously.
Well, over the course of about 80-90,000 miles, that Civic blew two head gaskets, and had a/c problems. When the second head gasket blew, that's when they sold it outright, and then bought the Saturn.
Last time I saw them though, the had a 2003-07 style Corolla. So perhaps all wasn't bliss with that Saturn?
And personally, I don't care who makes it, but if I have transmission issues before 100,000 miles, I'm not going to exactly be a fan. Hell, if a 1980 Malibu with the troubleprone THM200C transmission can go 100K+ without failure (that was when I sold it), I figure anything should be able to!
"And personally, I don't care who makes it, but if I have transmission issues before 100,000 miles, I'm not going to exactly be a fan."
That's a big reason why I didn't buy another Suburban. The 6 speed wasn't available yet and no way will I ever own another vehicle with a 4l60 transmission. Mine died under 50k miles and I know several people (probably 10 or more) who've suffered failures at well under 100k in GM 1/2 tons with that trans. One guy I know had his rebuilt 3x by 175k.
On another GM note buy not really car related, my 2012 boat with a GM 350 with 80 hours on it left us stranded this weekend. Simply quite running with no warning. Very well could be a Mercury part and not GM. It's at the dealer now so hopefully I'll find out tomorrow whats up.
And I had a '95 Civic that was a terrific little car. Both anecdotal stories. So now I'm predisposed to like Honda and your friends to hate them. It's hard to get by your own personal experience, but its when you look at the larger picture that you have a good idea what to avoid or consider in the future. Were there an inordinate amount of other folks having problems with that model, or did you just get one of the few that were crummy?
Comments
Lemko, I too remember that experience.
But hey, there we go, talking about "the bad old days" again! LOL
That said, I haven't had to replace a set of rotors in a long time. One thing, I think trucks/SUVs simply have beefy rotors. The rotors on my Expedition look like manhole covers and they're vented front and back. At 126k, I've only replaced the pads once. Same with the Suburban I had. Plus I do quite a bit of towing. Brakes just haven't been an issue.
Same with my wife's cars. She's never had to replace brake rotors on any of her company cars, nor had much of an issue with rotor warp.
As in all the political speeches we suffer these days, there's a weasel word that changes what is being discussed: "redlining."
I have to admit that if the car is being accelerated at 3/4 or more throttle, I CAN HEAR THE ENGINE. Horrors!
I don't know how Honda or toyota keep their engines from making noises when running at high rpms, but apparently they do to the satisfaction of posters here, or at least in their memory of the noises they don't hear. :grin
Actually, I can't remember having floored my Cobalt when I've had it home to drive it. I don't usually drive at full throttle and it merges really nicely on the interstates at part throttles when I've driven it during the last 3 months. I did get some miles on it when I picked it up in Columbus and brought it home to have tires replaced.
Maybe I should be asking if the other _perfect_ cars have to have tires replaced? Or is that a fault that only the lowly GM vehicles suffer? -- with all the competition never having to replace tires? :grin
Actually the tires had lots of tread left, but I wanted good tires for Imid.Jr driving in Columbus while at OSU. And having driven the car with the OEM tires worn down and with the new Michelins, I learned the OEM tires were making _noise_ on most pavements driven at speed. I assume the Civic has silent tires (not likely compared to the Accords I've ridden in and test drove in 03). :grin
"[/end sarcasm]"
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I do think cars were better, in some ways in the old days. But the advantages of today's cars far outweigh their negatives. For instance, the sheetmetal on my 2012 Ram is going to dent much more easily than it would on my 1957 DeSoto. But, I'd much rather get into an accident in the Ram, than the DeSoto!
Unless, it's one of those little 5 mph fender-benders that wouldn't even faze the DeSoto, but would probably do a few grand worth of damage on the Ram :-P
I also remember test-driving a 2002 Altima, when that design first came out. That car was eerily quiet at highway speeds, but when idling I thought it sounded a bit thrashy. I didn't floor it, though, so I dunno how they sound when you stomp on them.
My buddy's 2006 Xterra sounds okay though...no complaints there. I'm actually a bit disappointed in how my 2012 Ram sounds. Its Hemi just doesn't have that grumble of V-8 engines from those bygone years. It will walk any car I've ever owned like a dog, but it just doesn't have that muscular sound.
Of course, my hearing might be a bit distorted these days, since I'm used to hearing a '67 Catalina with Turbo Thrush mufflers that can set off car alarms if it gets too close, a '79 New Yorker with no muffler at all, where I've had people pull up and ask me if I had a big-block put in, etc...
Still my favorite V6 remains the J35 in the Acura TL/TL-S and the whatever V6 is in the last generation Toyotas such as the RAV4 which I drove.
The Honda motor is about 20 years old now but is buttery smooth and loves to rev. And it's extremely durable as well, it's easy to rack 200k on one without more than oil changes and Belt/WP replacement over that time period.
The Toyota tho is a different animal all together. It is sewing machine smooth and quieter than the Honda, the power in the RAV4 I drove was disturbingly linear. I don't think I've ever had an SUV sneak up on triple digits without me even realizing it. I kicked that thing down into passing gear on the highway doing about the legal limit to go around a Semi and as soon as I looked down, I was over 90 and climbing fast. This one had zero drama tho, there wasn't much you could hear going on under the hood...
Any guess as to which is more costly, easily damage panels and parts vs. vulnerability to rust? I don't know the answer to that. I imagine there are a lot of variables, but a lot of post mid '50s - late '70s cars, especially, were traded or scrapped early, with relatively low mileage, due to excessive rust.
I'm not sure where you get these ideas. I don't know anyone who claims that a Civic or Matrix is a quiet car. I have a Pontiac Vibe, essentially a Matrix, and the thing sounds like a B-52 when it accelerates. I can't talk on a cellphone if I'm in it. It's not why I got the car. People don't buy small cars for the quiet, but for fuel economy, functionality, and overall reliability. The only "quiet" small car I've ever been in is the Nissan Versa with the CVT. But I bought the Vibe because its hatch was more versatile, and its reliability ratings are stellar. The Cobalt may have been a great car. I have no idea. But there has to be a reason it was replaced. I actually think the Cruze is a nice-looking little car and if I were in the market for a small sedan, I would check it out.
For a quiet car you go to the midsize segment. Camry, and now Accord, they are quiet cars.
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We're not talking disc versus drum; we're talking discs that had meaty rotors on even the cheapest cars, compared to the past couple decades. Almost any magazine long-term review will make note of warped rotors, even on high-end sedans, after as little as 10 or 15K miles.
It absolutely didn't used to be that way. It's all about weight saving now.
And if 'good pedal feel' with wafer-thin rotors means pulsating, which is often the case, no thank you.
I always tell my dealer to use a torque-stick when tightening lug nuts. One guy gets assigned my cars, and I know him, so I believe it. Have never had warped rotors on the Cobalt. Did on the PT, which was a rental car with 45.8K miles before we bought it.
My dad's v6 Accord and my MIL v6 Camry make my wife's '13 Taurus v6 sound like a meat grinder. It's very noticeable to me.
I haven't been in many 4cyl cars lately. But now that I'm accustom to a v8, I don't like any of them unless they are direct injected and turbo charged.
And it's not like my Expedition is fast. It's several seconds slower to say 60 than my wife's Taurus, but it feels far more powerful around town (lots of low rpm torque and shorter gearing), it can at least accelerate without downshifting all the time.
Our Malibu, with 32K miles, has noisy tires. My Cobalt has 29K on the set on the car now, which were the same tires as equipped when new (part of the XFE deal), and they have remained very quiet.
The noisy Malibu tires are Firestone FR-somethings. The Cobalt tires are Goodyear.
But I rotate at every oil change, and that seems to help. I got 70k out of the OEM Continentals on my Expedition and I have almost 60k on the Michelins and they still have a lot of tread and are still quiet. But the Expedition is quiet overall. Being BOF and having lots of insulation does isolate a lot of road noise. The Taurus sounds and feels like a pop can in comparison.
I'm not at all impressed with the Hankook tires on my wife's '10 and '13 Taurus. Obviously, they are just cheap OEM.
As for brakes, I've read the same reviews and have seen rotors warping at low miles. I've never had that problem. Now I have had rotors warp after being machined before. I do notice a slight pulse now in my Expedition, but at 127k and being turned once, I'm not complaining as it's not bad enough to mess with. Plus the rotors for the Expe are not cheap.
That's always a possibility of course, but...and I'll probably jinx it by saying this...I'm 55, drive a lot, always have, and have never been in anything but a fender-bender...and that was in my driveway when my Lark rolled back into my six-week old Cobalt. Did $800 damage to the Lark, including NOS parts, and did $3,500 or more to the Cobalt.
The simplicity of old cars is appealing to me, as much as the fun memories and preserving of period history/culture. Tell you what though, with today's distracted drivers, I'd be compelled to add a CHMSL to whatever old car I'd buy going forward.
I can't argue with that. Personally I don't like buying the same vehicle or manufacturer one after another. I guess I'm weird in that I like change and variety.
I'm thinking about a Dodge/Ram for my next vehicle. I'm waiting for the '14 Durango to hit the lots. I want to drive it with the Hemi/8pseed. It has enough tow rating to tow our boat. I just don't know if it's big enough overall.
If I doesn't work for me, I'll look at the Ram, Silverado, or a used f150 or another Expedition (but I really would like somelthing different).
I'd love a diesel SUV from the Germans, but I don't want to spend that much and frankly I'm a bit scared of the potential maintenance costs.
It's a gutsy beast, but a bit thirsty. However, the Xterra is heavier than it looks. Something like 4200 lb, and 4wd. It'll get 21-22 on the highway, but in mixed driving he's seeing around 16-17 I think.
I guess "Thirsty" is all relative though. My 2012 Ram, on its last tank got around 11.7 mpg. That's its worst showing so far.
My 01 Nissan Pathfinder was just as thirsty as my Suburban and expedition on the hwy, it would get a bit better around town, but it weighed a lot less.
I never saw much more than 16-17 hwy, but rarely under 14 either. OTOH, I can get 16-18 mpg on the highway in the Expedition (Suburban was about the same). But around town, 11-12 mpg is the norm.
I think some of it is gearing. The Nissan simply ran more RPM at highway speeds. I really did like the VQ 3.5. It had tons of torque at low to mid range rpm. Plus it was geared to take advantage of it. It could tow my boat better in 3rd and 4th gear than my Suburban could. Mainly because, one the Suburban was much heavier, and two GM has a knack for gearing that's way to tall. Particularly with the old 4 speed.
Really it's the same with GMs 6 speed too. Comparing a 6 speed suburban to my Expedition, the 5.4 has more torque at lower rpm vs. the 5.3 yet, the Suburban's gearing is taller. I've got a 3.73 rear end that's not an option on the Suburban and some of the gears in GM's 6 speed are taller too. It's no wonder why the Expedition feels like it has more towing power.
The new Silverado uses 3.08 gears as standard, that's crazy IMO for a tow vehicle.
If I had kept a log and data over the years, it would be drivers of mini or compact pickups that are the worst as a category at going slow, blocking traffic.
On the flip side, why is it that drivers of high-performance cars (including Corvettes) always drive so damn slow?
Same with pickup trucks with contractors driving, sipping coffee while they crawl to the first job of the day.
No two 'identical' engines coming off an assembly line will have exactly the same balance as the one potentially that is beside it. It is for this reason that some models within the same brand might feel smoother than their neighbour's 'identical' car.
That said, there are certain brands that have discovered and perfected, not only a potentially smoother (more balanced engine design regardless of its configuration) running engine than a competitor's, but also manage to manufacture a level of consistency of that build quality on the line. This is far from being by chance or accident. Honda comes to mind as being a bit superior in this area even to some of the best (or rather higher-end) EU efforts. In these areas, NA build efforts have never *yet* been in the same class. Smooth enough, by all means though. One area that NA builds are superior at, is isolating the NVH from the occupants. And I would give the nod to GM for this over Ford or Chrysler, but even non high-end EU brands like VW are also quite capable in this area and often manage to do so while retaining superior traits like steering feel.
Regarding the 05 rental Corolla feeling less than smooth, I'd say this is an anomaly more than any expected norm. Who knows why it was a rough one. Those 1.8s have been the same design for years...in use still today, and of course most would say well overdue to be replaced. While they are not as potentially smooth as a Honda engine, they are still pretty respectable in that area. Remember back when GM brought out their "Quad 4", (I think the name was)? Remember how rough and raucous it ran? It may have had a lot of ba!!s but compared to almost any other similar displacement competitor's 4 cylinder it was the engine that brought about the expression sounds like a can of bolts being shaken, and the only way to exacerbate that, was to increase RPMS.
I've owned an 03 Matrix (had that 1.8 Corolla engine) and I distinctly recall it being 'relatively' quiet for what it was..(a wagon so it has an uphill battle in interior db levels right from the get-go) for only the first couple years. Then it got noticeably noisier inside. Mind you, still a lot quieter than my abusive CRV is. But in reading posts here lately, I am interested to read that maybe tire wear was/is behind it. I thought maybe the sound-deadening foam or whatever, had aged prematurely in the Matrix. I traded it before wearing out its first set of Good Year GAs if I recall.
Honest question, just curious. Is th Cobalt's idle refinement present throughout the entire rev range? If it is, I wonder why GM didn't use that engine instead of the other harsh mills they have?
All engines have an RPM area that they are designed to run in and be the best that they can be at all things averaged out. Transmission and final drive gearing complements the original design of the engine built for its intended vehicle that's going to power.. and the target consumer for that vehicle.
I believe the claims that the Cobalt was the most peaceful of those 3 cars on that 600 mile return. It is irrelevant that its price point was less. That just makes it a bargain if also fulfills the other duties/expectations you have for the it over the number of years you plan to own it.
In early 2012 98,000 Cobalt coupes from the 2005–06 model years were recalled after it was discovered they did not meet federal safety requirements because of a lack of adequate padding in a specific area of the vehicle's trim. This resulted in an unacceptable vulnerability to head injuries, though GM claimed the vulnerability would only affect motorists not wearing a seat belt.
On March 2, 2010, GM announced a recall of 1.3 million compact cars in North America, including the Chevrolet Cobalt, because of power steering problems. GM plans on fixing older models before fixing current models, as the car was replaced by the Chevrolet Cruze in late 2010. The Pontiac G5 and its international variants were also affected, though GM had already ended production of the Pontiac brand by that point. The following recall is due to extreme heat causing damage to the plastic fuel pump lines. The recall is only for states in the southern part of the U.S.A. On September 28, 2012, GM announced a recall of 40,859 cars including the Chevrolet Cobalt from the 2007-09 model year because of a potential fuel leak.
Cobalt Safety
According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) the Cobalt receives an overall top score of "Good" for front collisions. However, it receives a "Poor" overall score for side impacts without side curtain airbags, and an "Acceptable" overall score with side curtain airbags. In 2008 side curtain airbags became standard but the Cobalt's structure remains the same and consequently in structure/safety category of the IIHS's side impact test the Cobalt receives a "Marginal" score. Side airbags are limited to the curtain type, torso type side airbags are unavailable.According to the IIHS's injury measurements taken from the side impact test the driver's torso is given a "Marginal" score.
My '08 had the power steering recall and a campaign for potential sticky ignition keys, warrantied for up to ten years...and even after the bankruptcy! LOL
Should I list Toyota recalls of the past five years? Or Hyundai and Kia? I don't think we'd want to rehash those. That is one area for certain where Toyota "leads".
I'll never forget the look of Toyota's N.A. president deferring almost all recall questions to Mr. Toyoda during questioning.
I think most of the noise in a car like the Civic is from the road noise and wind noise, not engine noise. The engine can be very refined and yet the car can still be noisy.
Completely disagree that a quality over other cars that cost more is 'irrelevant'..particularly one that was built in the U.S. by (gasp) U.A.W. workers. It was an unexpected thing to enjoy in this low-buck car...like the trunk shocks that don't impinge on trunk room, and the hood that holds itself up without a prop. Small, pleasantly unexpected things in that price class.
I changed out the RE-01's on my S2k a few years ago for some Dunlops and what a huge difference. Just so much smoother and less harsh over bumps. Love them so much that both of my Subies are running on Dunlops now...
Oh snap.
Safety tho, ya... not so good.
The Cobalt SS is a good find tho if you want a hot compact. Finding an unmolested one is probably next to impossible...
That just makes it a bargain if it also fulfills the other duties/expectations you have for it over the number of years you plan to own it.
I've been looking for a small car for my daughter and I have looked up Cobalts in autotrader and man, even with high miles they are not cheap (seems everything under 100k miles commands top dollar asking price anyway). I wonder if you could sell it for nearly what you paid for it.
I've been looking at '09 Cobalt sedans for my younger daughter, and I can't find one with under 60K miles for under about $9K...way more than I want to spend.
That's pretty much what I've found too.
"U.S. and Korean auto makers are winning over younger buyers in the U.S. at the expense of Japanese brands, according to registration data compiled by R.L. Polk & Co.
From the first half of 2009 through the first half of 2013, Ford, Chevrolet, Buick, Hyundai and Kia have gained market share among 18-34 year old buyers."
Ford and GM have definitely done well with cross-overs and a few cars lately.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
Fiat is the best example of this!
They brought crappy cars to the U.S. and left with their tails between their legs, stranding buyers without warranty coverage.
Now, not only are they BACK, hell, they own Chrysler!
Well, sure "we" can....unless we're dead!
Back around 2010, I drove a RAV4 with the V6. If you jumped it hard at lower speeds, the torque steer was horrific. But out on the highway, with part throttle, it would really move. The speed did "sneak up on you". If they still made the RAV4 with the V6, I probably would have bought one by now.
The Accord has had higher than average road noise for decades. But for the 2013 generation of Accord, Honda finally listened and fixed this. The Accord is now a quiet car, with little road noise. My 2013 Accord is a lot quieter than my 2008 Accord.
That was true for a long time, but it's changed for 2013. Honda put major work and $ into both the 2013 Civic and 2013 Accord to make them as quiet as the best of the competition. See this review of the Civic:
http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/cars/2013-honda-civic-s-big-upgrades-render-i- t-a-superb-value-1.5082761
"The 2013's interior exhibits less wind and road noise thanks to a thicker windshield, a stiffer front subframe and additional sound-proofing. A standard carpeted trunk lid finishes the previous bare sheet metal nicely while minimizing unwanted road noise from the rear."
Safety/Recalls
The current eighth-generation Civic sedan's crash test performance has been rated highly by both the US Government's NHTSA[20] and the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The IIHS awarded the Civic sedan with a rating of "Good" on both frontal and side impact crash tests[21] and lists the Civic as the second-best 2007 small car in overall crashworthiness.[22] The Civic coupe is rated "Acceptable" in the side impact test.[23]
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) Crash Test Ratings[20]
Frontal Impact: 5 stars.svg
Side Impact Front Seat: 4 stars.svg
Side Impact Rear Seat: 5 stars.svg
Rollover: 4 stars.svg
Honda Motor Co said on Friday July 31, 2009 that it is recalling 440,000 vehicles sold in the United States, including some of its best-selling Accord and Civic models for a potentially lethal airbag defect.[24]
Honda said that the airbag inflators in some of its top-selling sedans can rupture because of too much air pressure causing metal fragments to shoot through the airbag and strike vehicle occupants.
One fatality and a number of injuries have been linked to the defect, Honda spokesman Sage Marie said.
The recall covers certain 2001 and 2002 Accords, 2001 Civics and some 2002 and 2003 model Acura TL sedans. The inflator for the driver's side airbag is the defective component on the affected vehicles.
Honda said owners of those models can check to see if their vehicle is covered by the recall by
The Japanese automaker said it was encouraging owners to wait until they received a recall notice to go to a dealership and have the inflator for the steering-wheel airbag replaced.
Honda had originally announced that it would recall some 2001 Accord and Civic sedans for the defect in November 2009. Since that time, Service Bulletin 08-093 has been expanded to cover several VINs in the 2001–2002 Accord coupe and sedan, the 01-02 Civic coupe and sedan, one 2003 Civic, the 02-03 CRV, the 2002 Odyssey, and one 2003 Pilot.
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-The Toyota Matrix, officially referred to as the Toyota Corolla Matrix, is a compact hatchback manufactured by Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada in Cambridge, Ontario and derived from the Toyota Corolla. Introduced in 2002 as a 2003 model, the Matrix is the result of a joint venture between Toyota and General Motors, with the GM version being the Pontiac Vibe, which was assembled by New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc-
Frankly, Chrysler set the bar so low that it would be hard for anyone to disappoint me.
Sad thing is, I actually recommended that Civic to them. The Neon hadn't come out yet and Chrysler was still pushing Sundances and Shadows. Chevy had the Cavalier and Ford had the Escort. The Civic seemed like a lot more car than any of those, and also seemed more substantial than a Corolla or Sentra of the time. And back then, nobody took Hyundai seriously.
Well, over the course of about 80-90,000 miles, that Civic blew two head gaskets, and had a/c problems. When the second head gasket blew, that's when they sold it outright, and then bought the Saturn.
Last time I saw them though, the had a 2003-07 style Corolla. So perhaps all wasn't bliss with that Saturn?
And personally, I don't care who makes it, but if I have transmission issues before 100,000 miles, I'm not going to exactly be a fan. Hell, if a 1980 Malibu with the troubleprone THM200C transmission can go 100K+ without failure (that was when I sold it), I figure anything should be able to!
That's a big reason why I didn't buy another Suburban. The 6 speed wasn't available yet and no way will I ever own another vehicle with a 4l60 transmission. Mine died under 50k miles and I know several people (probably 10 or more) who've suffered failures at well under 100k in GM 1/2 tons with that trans. One guy I know had his rebuilt 3x by 175k.
On another GM note buy not really car related, my 2012 boat with a GM 350 with 80 hours on it left us stranded this weekend. Simply quite running with no warning. Very well could be a Mercury part and not GM. It's at the dealer now so hopefully I'll find out tomorrow whats up.
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