I think the first Japanese car that really gave me a new respect for them was a 1991 Civic rental that I had in California. Now compared to the types of cars that I was used to, it was a learning experience. But not bad for a small car. It would also do 115 mph, given a long enough downhill run ;-P
The Japanese simply put more effort into their small cars in those days, and gave the buyer more choices, as well. For instance, I don't think the domestics even had a 4-door subcompact until 1978, when the Omni/Horizon debuted, and the Chevette finally added a 4-door. Ford wouldn't get one until the 1981 Escort! I guess you could count the old c1958-60 Rambler American as an early subcompact, but that was a totally different era.
But, the Japanese pretty much had 4-door subcompacts from the get-go. I think the 1979-83 Corolla offered 5 body styles...2- and 4-door sedan, hardtop coupe, 4-door wagon, and another 2-door that was sort of a combination hatchback, wagon, and hardtop. You weren't getting that much variety out of the domestics in small cars, although I guess the Cavalier should get some credit, offering a 4-door sedan, wagon, 2-door notchback, 2-door hatchback, and convertible.
My buddy's 1980 Accord actually was high-quality, in some respects. I swear the paint looked like it had a clearcoat on it. I think only Lincoln and Cadillac offered a clearcoat in 1980, among domestics. The interior had some pretty nice, plush fabric as well. Something that wouldn't look out of place in a Bonneville Brougham, Electra, 98, New Yorker, etc. You wouldn't find an interior that nice in a Chevette, Pinto, or Omni/Horizon.
Some take a negative post about GM as a personal affront, it seems....like THEY built the cars and you have to like it or keep quiet!
Continual support despite the facts leading up to GM's ultimate failure...seems like the definition of insanity!
The fact that GM now builds competitive products doesn't change history, of which there is a lot of the old historical examples of "Old GM Failure" still on the roads today (and also in dealer parking lots).
The point is GM has made a bunch of HUGE mistakes that sent them to failure.
Now, they have some religion and are making more competitive products.
Honda and Toyota better watch their backs as competition heats up and they have their failures as well...just not quite as big failures as "Humpty-Dumpty GM".
My Dad went on a business trip to Canada over 30 years ago with several co-workers. Their rental car was one of those downsized A-Body Malibus. He was thinking about buying a new car around that time and complained how thin the Malibu's seats and doors were and that the car had an overall tinny feel to it. Unfortunately, I don't think the choice he made was any better - he bought a 1981 Ford Thunderbird.
Did an Accord cost what a Chevette cost? I don't know, but I don't think so.
I used to get my share of Datsuns and Corollas as rental cars in the '80's. I hated them. They smelled funny inside, the doors were about an inch thick, and although they did seem peppy, an hour on the highway and the buzziness gave me headaches. I also remember some where you had to remember to turn the radio off, or it would stay on after you left the car.
They were also the first cars I can remember that were meant to look like somebody stole the hubcaps.
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The T-bird, at least, was beefed up a bit over the Fairmont it was based on. You want really flimsy, check out one of those! Especially one of the stripper models! Suddenly, the Malibu would feel rock-solid!
That was sort of a rough time though, as the Malibu was about the size of a Fairmont, Nova, Aspen/Volare, all compact cars, but was supposed to compete with midsized cars such as the LTD-II/Cougar and the "small" Fury/Monaco.
Having had an '89 Gran Fury, which was based on the Aspen/Volare, I'd say it felt a lot more substantial than something like a Malibu did. But, it was also bigger and heavier than a Malibu. Or even the Aspen/Volare it was based on.
Also, in all fairness, if you went to the nicer versions, such as a Malibu Classic, Grand LeMans, Century Limited (Regal Limited in '82-84), Cutlass Supreme Brougham, etc, they were decked out a LOT nicer than a base Malibu.
I think we should look at the 1980s as a "Most Reliable Car" contest, where in order to have their vote counted, Americans had to take out their checkbooks and write a large check to be counted in the tally.
If we assume this premise, then Toyota and Honda won the contest by a large margin--if not in actual numbers, certainly in market share.
My opinion was that the 1980s was, in reality, the largest consumer boycott of an American product ever conducted spontaneously.
Nah, an Accord would have cost considerably more than a Chevette. So it is a bit difficult to do a direct comparison. They were both about the same size and weight, but the Accord was more expensive.
Damn, I didn't realize the Accord was THAT expensive. They show a 1980 Accord sedan listing at $6515! For comparison, I think the base price of a 1980 Malibu sedan was only $5502 or so. IIRC, Mom's 1980 Malibu coupe was about $7,000 out the door, with the 229 V-6, automatic, a/c, am/fm radio, vinyl interior, and tinted windshield.
So honestly, I guess you have to give the domestics some credit for coming in so cheap with their cars. I know if I was shopping for a new cheap car in 1980, I would've taken a Chevette and pocketed the ~$2,000 difference! Or if I was spending $6500-7000, I would've bought something bigger than an Accord!
But, there were plenty of people who wanted what the Accord had to offer, and they were usually going for well over MSRP.
The Chevette was a pretty wretched little car next to an Accord. The differences might have tempted you to spring for the extra money, or at least consider a Civic.
Keep in mind that Honda and Toyota really *lucked out* by having the perfect model lineup for a gas crisis.
If the D3 had had some decent subcompacts and compacts in place in '73, the whole scenario might have been quite different.
But once the camel's nose was in the tent, the rest of it soon followed.
I think that in some ways, Detroit was a victim of its own mastery, of being able to build bigger cars at a low price. For instance, in 1975 my Mom bought a new LeMans coupe and my grandparents bought a new Dart Swinger. Each was around $5,000. And that was with automatic, air conditioning, power steering/brakes. The Dart had a slant six, but the LeMans had a Pontiac 350-2bbl. I think base price of the Dart was around $3510, and the LeMans 350 was around $3580.
Well, a 1976 Accord hatchback started at $3999. Not a completely fair comparison, as inflation was kicking in by then, but I'm sure a '76 Dart or LeMans still base-priced for under $4K.
I think it would have been a hard sell for Detroit to build a really quality small car and make any money off of it, because not too many people would pay $4,000 for a subcompact Chevy, Ford, or Mopar, even if it was high-quality, when you'd be able to get a compact or even mid-size for about the same price.
I remember the '76 Chevette two-door hatch started at $2,899--same price as a Vega hatch, which I'd have definitely preferred in '76.
My wife was driving a '78 Chevette 4-door 5-speed until April '90 when we bought her a new 5-speed Corsica, which we drove for 108K miles and never spent a night in a garage. The Chevette was rusted at the lower right front fender and also a strut tower on that side rusted through, which we had cheaply repaired, but the worst thing was it smelled like gas inside by the time we were trading it.
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Well, you are probably right, but for me personally--and that only--I never considered the mass market an idea of what is intelligent or even desirable...probably why I don't collect '60's Chevelles or Mustangs.
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Well, in 1980, the most popular car in the United States was the Chevrolet Citation. In 1981 it was the RWD Cutlass Supreme (a bit unfair, as you'd have to combine Malibu/Monte Carlo, Century/Regal, and LeMans/Grand Prix to really make a direct comparison). I think 1982 was the Chevette.
In 1985, seven of the top ten selling cars were GM products. Two were Ford. The one Japanese standout was the Datsun (or was it Nissan by then?) Sentra.
I was definitely more mainstream in automotive taste at the beginning of that decade than at the end.
Still, I was weird for my age, as I never looked at Camaros, and Corvettes of that era didn't do anything for me. I always liked the midsize GM's then and also the full-size '77-79's.
You mentioned in an earlier post, and I agree totally, that the '77 full-size GM's were drastic change enough, but the '78's realllly pushed the envelope. They shrunk more from their predecessors than the '77 full-sizes did. When I first saw one--a cream and gold two-tone 4-door Malibu Classic--I was stunned. I hated the small spare and the sedans' fixed rear windows, and I thought the Monte Carlo was 'ick'. I did like the two-door Malibu Classic and would daydream about ordering a black one, 305, gold pinstripe, gold cloth 50/50 interior with dual center armrests, F41 suspension, full instrumentation (Monte Carlo cluster), and the scooped-out plastic 'honeycomb' wheelcovers.
Speaking of rentals earlier, the only rental car that left me stranded was a white Fairmont 4-door with 'pumpkin'-color interior. Probably an '80 or '81. But, I'll admit that a car I was thrilled to get--an '80 Grand Prix--was a dud. The only interior light that worked was the one on the floor of the passenger side, and it ticked like a time bomb (V6)--when I put gas in it, I checked the oil and had to add three quarts! When I mentioned that to the girl at the counter when I returned it, she totally blew me off.
All that said...why did Japanese cars smell like they did then??! LOL
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Still, I was weird for my age, as I never looked at Camaros, and Corvettes of that era didn't do anything for me. I always liked the midsize GM's then and also the full-size '77-79's.
I wasn't exactly mainstream for my age back then, either. While most kids my age saw Smokey and the Bandit and lusted after a black Trans Am with a gold screaming chicken on the hood, I wanted Sheriff Justice's '77 LeMans!
Well, okay, I'm sure a lot of kids my age also wanted Luke Skywalker's X-34! :-P
As for GM's shrinkage, I think the Impala/Caprice coupe/sedan went from around 221.5" long, on a 121.5" wheelbase, to around 212" on a 116". In contrast, the Malibu went from around 212" on a 116" wb for a sedan, 208" on a 112" wb for a coupe, to 192.7" on a 108" wb for both.
So while an Impala lost about 9.5" of length, a Malibu sedan lost 19.3"!
The Citation would prove to be even more radical, in overall length at least. A Nova was about 198" long, on a 111" wb. The Citation was on a 104.9" wb, and I think only around 176" long.
I guess if GM had downsized the Malibu using the same proportioning that they did with the big cars, they would have ended up with something roughly the size of a 4-door Aspen/Volare? They were on a 112.7" wb (coupes were 108.7) and I think around 202" long?
FWIW, the '78 LeMans and the Cutlass Salon and Century were a bit longer than a Malibu...around 196" I believe. And the personal luxury coupes (Monte Carlo et al) were around 200-202" I think?
For some reason, I'm thinking 200.4" on a Monte Carlo. I had an '81 which was stolen, replaced with an '82, and my parents had '80 and '84's. I put a deposit on a new '85 Monte Carlo SS but backed out and ordered the Celebrity instead, just to get something a bit different.
I did test-drive an '85 Camaro Berlinetta, because I liked the gold wheels and trim, but I detested the whiz-bang instrument panel that year and thought it was noisy, being all open inside (hatchback), compared to what I was used to.
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Once I was old enough to drive, I did test drive a used Camaro and Mustang, because that's what kids my age were "supposed" to want. But back then, what I really wanted was a Monte SS, or better yet, a Buick Regal T-type or Grand National!
In 1989 I actually came pretty close to buying a used Caprice coupe that was 2-tone green (dark over light). I thought it was an '84, but I think you said that was a 1985-only combination? Anyway, it had those fake "BBS" wheelcovers, and I thought it looked pretty sharp. I forget how much they wanted for it. For some reason I'm thinking only $4,000, but that seems kinda cheap for a car that was only 4-5 years old at the time.
Interview with Whitackre: "Whitacre: "A lot never did. They'd say, 'We didn't do anything wrong. It's the economy.' Boy I didn't have time to linger with that kind of attitude. They had no flexibility. They'd been in the GM environment too long."
"Whitacre: "Oh, I'm sure they did. One guy at our Monday meeting said he'd be absent the next week because he'd be in California. I said, 'If you go to California, just stay there, 'cause you won't have a job when you come back.' It was GM's culture that there was never a sense of urgency."
"The truth is, GM has changed. It still has work to do, and yes, there are still parts of GM that remain stuck in old habits. That said, a number of the automaker's top executives move quicker than their predecessors and they have a vision for where to take the automaker."
I agree, the numbers tell the story. We were plagued with Ford, Lincoln, Mercury and GM products in the 80's and 90's that stalled, ran poorly, wouldn't start. It wasn't unusual then to have car trouble, unlike today where it's an afterthought with almost any make or model.
I liked just about anything that was fast and looked cool as a teen. While I did like the mid 80's Hurst Olds, Monte SS, GN/T-Type, I also liked Mustangs. I generally leaned towards cars that offered a manual trans and Ford generally had a better offering in that regard, during the 80's and early '90s they offered a manual in greater variety of cars vs GM.
I liked hot fwd hot hatches along with muscle cars. But I generally didn't like full-size cars.
When I was a kid in the early and mid 80's I always wanted a Cutlass Supreme or Thunderbird. When I started driving in 1991 I was so jealous of kids in high school who had Accords and Civics. Corollas (really Toyota in general) wasn't that popular yet, but all the "cool" kids drove Preludes, Civics and Accords while everyone else had a Shadow, Cavalier, Century, etc.
I agree, the numbers tell the story. We were plagued with Ford, Lincoln, Mercury and GM products in the 80's and 90's that stalled, ran poorly, wouldn't start. It wasn't unusual then to have car trouble, unlike today where it's an afterthought with almost any make or model.
That pretty much describes my experience. I remember growing up, my dad having a Grand Torino which was completely rusted out within 4 years and ready for the bone yard after 6 with less than 40k miles on it. The replacement, a '79 Caprice Classic wagon left as stranded for the first two years several times. He replaced that with an '85 Tempo that wasn't horrible, but it wasn't very good either.
I remember as a kid it wasn't all that unusual to see to tow truck in the neighborhood to provide a jump or a tow for a variety of lousy domestic and a few German makes in the '80s.
Aside from the Buick GNX and the "new" Fox Mustang 5.0, I completely lost interest in American cars in the 1980s, and for the most part, have yet to regain much interest in them, with the exception of the Tesla, the Cadillac CST-V and the new 2014 Corvette.
I just saw the blip that Edmunds calls the 2014 Corvette "the best sports car you can buy", unquote. Add to that CR's rating of the Impala as better than cars costing $20 large more, and you have a couple mainstream media points saying GM is in the lead in those two areas. Hmmmm. And someone here likes to repeatedly post, "GM does not lead".
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The 2014 Corvette sounds like a great machine, but it's a niche market. The Impala is a definite improvement but it's just competitive now. While the Impala gets good reviews, CR isn't really lauded as the go to source for car reviews and information. GM is adequate, not horrible, not great. I'm interested to see how the Impala sales stack up against the Avalon, Genesis and Taurus. Hopefully better than the Malibu is doing.
>I remember as a kid it wasn't all that unusual to see to tow truck in the neighborhood to provide a jump or a tow for a variety of lousy domestic and a few German makes in the '80s.
The foreign brands needed their tows too. I recall giving rides to a coworker back in the early 80s because his VW wouldn't run. I recall the Audi's in the cold spell we had in Cincinnati sitting along the roadside because of the cold--hope I'm remembering the right vehicle.
I know it's early, but Impalas are a rare commodity on dealer lots around here, about four months after they came out. The nearest dealer who puts their 'best price' on the windshield isn't discounting them a single dollar either.
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To be fair he did specify "a few German makes" which would definitely cover Audi and VW.
I rarely, if ever, remember a Honda, Toyota or Mazda breaking down in that era. I do seem to remember they rusted a bit more and didn't love the cold, but on the whole they were much less troublesome than any domestic we owned. We were at the local Ford dealer at least once a month for one of our vehicles (2 Fords and a Mercury), my grandparents were the same with their 2 Fords. It just wasn't a good time for the American makes overall.
early German stuff had plenty of headaches for owners in the 1980s. In this respect the Japanese exceeded both domestics and the Germans in their ability to run reliably day after day.
What the Germans had was this phenomenon unknown to American car owners---brakes and handling. :P In that category, the Japanese were not much better than the domestics.
Those of us in the car biz or car hobby back then often speculated that we could build the perfect car by somehow merging the best qualities of American, Japanese and German engineering, styling and build quality.
Maybe we're actually seeing this happening in 2013 cars.
Time will tell if they sell in numbers or not, unfortunately that segment of the market isn't huge so either way it probably doesn't make a big difference.
I just saw the blip that Edmunds calls the 2014 Corvette "the best sports car you can buy", unquote. Add to that CR's rating of the Impala as better than cars costing $20 large more, and you have a couple mainstream media points saying GM is in the lead in those two areas. Hmmmm. And someone here likes to repeatedly post, "GM does not lead".
July 2013 Porsche 911 Sales = 794 July 2013 Chevy Corvette Sales = 671
Hmmm...Indeed!
I thought you never believe main stream media and the like? Do you believe actual sales data?
Also, many would never admit their foreign car had a fault. So they were all _perfect_, rationalized in some way in the owner's mind to be that, at least.
I'm sure there are some owners who did that. But hearing it more than once on these boards - it also could be that D3 loyalsits are using that as a catch-all excuse for why they the D3 were losing so much business. It's as if it's too hard to admit that at that time, the D3 vehicles really were worse in many ways and the ToyHon vehicles were really better in a LOT of ways. As I've read on the boards before - "It's ok to admit the truth". The argument that owners must have just been kidding themselves that their Toyota or Honda were actually good seems like it's glossing over reality.
If the early imports from Toyota and Honda were really totally crappy, they wouldn't have done so well. As an example, the Yugo didn't do well. The early Hyundais were junk and as a result the company's reputation was very poor; it took a long climb back with aggressive and much better products to get to where they are today. So why did Honda and Toyota do so well? Why were there huge premiums over sticker in the '80s on those makes? And why were the D3 screaming for import quotas? Because owners were just rationalizing that their Toyotas and Hondas were good? Doesn't seem likely.
I don't disagree that early Datsuns and Corolla's were tight and seemed a little tinny. However, they beat the heck out of those crap can Chevette's. When you touched a switch or turn signal on the Japanese models they glided whereas the Detroit iron clunked. And the Japanese models were pretty reliable. This facilitated those brands moving up into mainstream vehicles. Face it, Detroit totally blew it in the 70's and 80's and got what they had coming. They shoved unreliable, or at least inconsistent crap on the consumers while constantly raising prices. They didn't stand behind their product. They let the UAW run wild figuring they'd just jack up prices to make up for it - just as long as executives salaries were untouched! They then jammed the crap onto dealers lots forcing them to take haircuts. No wonder there were so many dealerships willing to take on the new Japanese brands. Screwed over their vendors and further facilitated the Japanese move into transplants. I don't have any sympathy for D3. I thought it was a textbook case of worst business practices and lack of executive accountability. Fortunately in the past decade they finally seemed to have woken up.
I kind of see the possibility for similar shake ups in airlines and telecoms in the near future. Right now they have the benefit of government regulation protections until consumers blow up and say that's enough of the fees and total disregard for customer service. I think that if they don't change their attitude soon we may see changed gov regs and foreign inter US service in both sectors. I just don't understand the US executives head in the sand approach to running their businesses sometimes. Must be the long term, fat salary contracts. Wait, that sounds like a lot of the bums in professional sports these days!
Comparing the 911 to the Corvette is kind of misleading tho, because there are so many variations and pricepoints which the Vette doesn't even compete with. On the other hand, I would probably put the Cayman and Boxster in that comparison because they do hit the same price point as the base Vette.
Lastly, there is a smattering of Hertz exclusive Corvette rentals across the Country which take away a few sales on the retail side of things.
Not that I would ever own a Vette myself, at least one that isn't Pre-1968 or so... After that, they just became an overly flashy rides for those that are compensating for something. And the ones I've driven are a handful if you aren't careful. If there was ever a car that I've driven that had too much power, it'd be the one...
I've never driven a 911 myself, but Boxsters and Caymans are better drivers cars to me and don't bite you in the tail if you try to wring out their performance... But both have their followers...
I think that was the point of comparing the Corvette to the Porsche 911. Even with a $30,000 price advantage, it looks like for 2013 the Vette and the 911 will be neck and neck in numbers sold. That is troubling news for Corvette IMO.
Actually the 2014 Impala is on sale, but you don't see many on the road yet. Most I've seen have the rental car bar code on them, but I have seen a couple of non rentals out there.
Exactly. The sales comps are far closer in the last few years.
- While the new Corvette is a huge improvement, it's also rolling into showrooms at a time when it's tougher than ever for dealers to sell sports cars.
"It's tougher for two-door sports cars to stand out," says Weisenfelder." There was a time when the 'vette was 'it' because there were not as many competitors. That's not the case anymore."
Actually the 2014 Impala is on sale, but you don't see many on the road yet. Most I've seen have the rental car bar code on them, but I have seen a couple of non rentals out there.
Does anybody know how long it's been since a 2013 Corvette has rolled out of Bowling Green? I'm not thinking that disappointing sales of a several-year-old-project spells doom for the new one.
Matter-of-fact, Automotive News had a segment a month or so ago about how dealers are P.O.'d about the stingy allocation of the new cars, based on how many Corvettes were sold there previously. One dealer said he was told to turn a previous Corvette customer who wished to order a C7, away to a dealer some miles away who had a relatively early one allocated.
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The foreign brands needed their tows too. I recall giving rides to a coworker back in the early 80s because his VW wouldn't run. I recall the Audi's in the cold spell we had in Cincinnati sitting along the roadside because of the cold--hope I'm remembering the right vehicle.
My grandparents used to have a cottage in North Beach, Maryland, about 35-40 miles away. As a kid, we used to go down there alot for family gatherings, but less so as I got older, and eventually it was sold in 1993.
Well, a couple times in the late 80's, I remember one of my uncles, who was going through car issues at the time, borrowed a friend's 1978 or 1979 Malibu Classic. It was a fairly tasteful two-tone brown over creme sort of scheme. The car made it there and back with no issues.
Well, the next time we had a get-together, he drove up in an Audi Fox that he had borrowed. It broke down at the cottage and had to be towed!
Only a sample of one, I know, but I thought it was a bit amusing. My uncle didn't, though! And, I've heard those Audi Foxes were pretty terrible.
And again, I know this is only one reference point, but that 1980 Accord I mentioned, that my friend had, went through one engine and one automatic transmission, and when the second transmission went out at 90,000 miles, his old man made him get rid of it.
His Dad got him a 1986 T-bird, one of those designer editions like Elan or Fila, forget which. It was a really nice car, but just had the 232 V-6. I was driving my '69 Dart GT at the time, which had a 225 slant six, and when my buddy showed up one day in this four year old T-bird, he really gloated about it. Got a bit embarrassed though, when he discovered that my old Dart would still outrun him, though! :-P
Sadly, he wrecked that T-bird. But, I wrecked the Dart, so Kay Sarah Kay Sarah...
"Even with a $30,000 price advantage, it looks like for 2013 the Vette and the 911 will be neck and neck in numbers sold. That is troubling news for Corvette IMO."
Just to correct that blanket statement, depending on model, 'Vettes started at around $50K or so but went well over $100K too.
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The Japanese simply put more effort into their small cars in those days, and gave the buyer more choices, as well. For instance, I don't think the domestics even had a 4-door subcompact until 1978, when the Omni/Horizon debuted, and the Chevette finally added a 4-door. Ford wouldn't get one until the 1981 Escort! I guess you could count the old c1958-60 Rambler American as an early subcompact, but that was a totally different era.
But, the Japanese pretty much had 4-door subcompacts from the get-go. I think the 1979-83 Corolla offered 5 body styles...2- and 4-door sedan, hardtop coupe, 4-door wagon, and another 2-door that was sort of a combination hatchback, wagon, and hardtop. You weren't getting that much variety out of the domestics in small cars, although I guess the Cavalier should get some credit, offering a 4-door sedan, wagon, 2-door notchback, 2-door hatchback, and convertible.
My buddy's 1980 Accord actually was high-quality, in some respects. I swear the paint looked like it had a clearcoat on it. I think only Lincoln and Cadillac offered a clearcoat in 1980, among domestics. The interior had some pretty nice, plush fabric as well. Something that wouldn't look out of place in a Bonneville Brougham, Electra, 98, New Yorker, etc. You wouldn't find an interior that nice in a Chevette, Pinto, or Omni/Horizon.
Continual support despite the facts leading up to GM's ultimate failure...seems like the definition of insanity!
The fact that GM now builds competitive products doesn't change history, of which there is a lot of the old historical examples of "Old GM Failure" still on the roads today (and also in dealer parking lots).
Now, they have some religion and are making more competitive products.
Honda and Toyota better watch their backs as competition heats up and they have their failures as well...just not quite as big failures as "Humpty-Dumpty GM".
Japan or the U.S. manufacturers? Embarrassing!
I used to get my share of Datsuns and Corollas as rental cars in the '80's. I hated them. They smelled funny inside, the doors were about an inch thick, and although they did seem peppy, an hour on the highway and the buzziness gave me headaches. I also remember some where you had to remember to turn the radio off, or it would stay on after you left the car.
They were also the first cars I can remember that were meant to look like somebody stole the hubcaps.
That was sort of a rough time though, as the Malibu was about the size of a Fairmont, Nova, Aspen/Volare, all compact cars, but was supposed to compete with midsized cars such as the LTD-II/Cougar and the "small" Fury/Monaco.
Having had an '89 Gran Fury, which was based on the Aspen/Volare, I'd say it felt a lot more substantial than something like a Malibu did. But, it was also bigger and heavier than a Malibu. Or even the Aspen/Volare it was based on.
Also, in all fairness, if you went to the nicer versions, such as a Malibu Classic, Grand LeMans, Century Limited (Regal Limited in '82-84), Cutlass Supreme Brougham, etc, they were decked out a LOT nicer than a base Malibu.
If we assume this premise, then Toyota and Honda won the contest by a large margin--if not in actual numbers, certainly in market share.
My opinion was that the 1980s was, in reality, the largest consumer boycott of an American product ever conducted spontaneously.
Edmund's has a write up here: http://www.edmunds.com/honda/accord/history.html
Damn, I didn't realize the Accord was THAT expensive. They show a 1980 Accord sedan listing at $6515! For comparison, I think the base price of a 1980 Malibu sedan was only $5502 or so. IIRC, Mom's 1980 Malibu coupe was about $7,000 out the door, with the 229 V-6, automatic, a/c, am/fm radio, vinyl interior, and tinted windshield.
In contrast, a 1980 Chevette, according to www.howstuffworks.com (http://www.howstuffworks.com/chevrolet-chevette2.htm) ranged from $4,057-$4,736 base price.
So honestly, I guess you have to give the domestics some credit for coming in so cheap with their cars. I know if I was shopping for a new cheap car in 1980, I would've taken a Chevette and pocketed the ~$2,000 difference! Or if I was spending $6500-7000, I would've bought something bigger than an Accord!
But, there were plenty of people who wanted what the Accord had to offer, and they were usually going for well over MSRP.
Keep in mind that Honda and Toyota really *lucked out* by having the perfect model lineup for a gas crisis.
If the D3 had had some decent subcompacts and compacts in place in '73, the whole scenario might have been quite different.
But once the camel's nose was in the tent, the rest of it soon followed.
Well, a 1976 Accord hatchback started at $3999. Not a completely fair comparison, as inflation was kicking in by then, but I'm sure a '76 Dart or LeMans still base-priced for under $4K.
I think it would have been a hard sell for Detroit to build a really quality small car and make any money off of it, because not too many people would pay $4,000 for a subcompact Chevy, Ford, or Mopar, even if it was high-quality, when you'd be able to get a compact or even mid-size for about the same price.
My wife was driving a '78 Chevette 4-door 5-speed until April '90 when we bought her a new 5-speed Corsica, which we drove for 108K miles and never spent a night in a garage. The Chevette was rusted at the lower right front fender and also a strut tower on that side rusted through, which we had cheaply repaired, but the worst thing was it smelled like gas inside by the time we were trading it.
In 1985, seven of the top ten selling cars were GM products. Two were Ford. The one Japanese standout was the Datsun (or was it Nissan by then?) Sentra.
Still, I was weird for my age, as I never looked at Camaros, and Corvettes of that era didn't do anything for me. I always liked the midsize GM's then and also the full-size '77-79's.
You mentioned in an earlier post, and I agree totally, that the '77 full-size GM's were drastic change enough, but the '78's realllly pushed the envelope. They shrunk more from their predecessors than the '77 full-sizes did. When I first saw one--a cream and gold two-tone 4-door Malibu Classic--I was stunned. I hated the small spare and the sedans' fixed rear windows, and I thought the Monte Carlo was 'ick'. I did like the two-door Malibu Classic and would daydream about ordering a black one, 305, gold pinstripe, gold cloth 50/50 interior with dual center armrests, F41 suspension, full instrumentation (Monte Carlo cluster), and the scooped-out plastic 'honeycomb' wheelcovers.
Speaking of rentals earlier, the only rental car that left me stranded was a white Fairmont 4-door with 'pumpkin'-color interior. Probably an '80 or '81. But, I'll admit that a car I was thrilled to get--an '80 Grand Prix--was a dud. The only interior light that worked was the one on the floor of the passenger side, and it ticked like a time bomb (V6)--when I put gas in it, I checked the oil and had to add three quarts! When I mentioned that to the girl at the counter when I returned it, she totally blew me off.
All that said...why did Japanese cars smell like they did then??! LOL
Of course, it is easy to gain market share when you start at 1% and work up, then when you own 60% to begin with.
But Japanese and German intrusion on Detroit was relentless and linear---up and up and up.
The Citation was no match, but you got more mediocrity/tonnage for your money, that's true.
It wasn't build quality so much that plagued American products, nor value, nor styling--it was reliability---the darn things just wouldn't run right.
I wasn't exactly mainstream for my age back then, either. While most kids my age saw Smokey and the Bandit and lusted after a black Trans Am with a gold screaming chicken on the hood, I wanted Sheriff Justice's '77 LeMans!
Well, okay, I'm sure a lot of kids my age also wanted Luke Skywalker's X-34! :-P
As for GM's shrinkage, I think the Impala/Caprice coupe/sedan went from around 221.5" long, on a 121.5" wheelbase, to around 212" on a 116". In contrast, the Malibu went from around 212" on a 116" wb for a sedan, 208" on a 112" wb for a coupe, to 192.7" on a 108" wb for both.
So while an Impala lost about 9.5" of length, a Malibu sedan lost 19.3"!
The Citation would prove to be even more radical, in overall length at least. A Nova was about 198" long, on a 111" wb. The Citation was on a 104.9" wb, and I think only around 176" long.
I guess if GM had downsized the Malibu using the same proportioning that they did with the big cars, they would have ended up with something roughly the size of a 4-door Aspen/Volare? They were on a 112.7" wb (coupes were 108.7) and I think around 202" long?
FWIW, the '78 LeMans and the Cutlass Salon and Century were a bit longer than a Malibu...around 196" I believe. And the personal luxury coupes (Monte Carlo et al) were around 200-202" I think?
I did test-drive an '85 Camaro Berlinetta, because I liked the gold wheels and trim, but I detested the whiz-bang instrument panel that year and thought it was noisy, being all open inside (hatchback), compared to what I was used to.
In 1989 I actually came pretty close to buying a used Caprice coupe that was 2-tone green (dark over light). I thought it was an '84, but I think you said that was a 1985-only combination? Anyway, it had those fake "BBS" wheelcovers, and I thought it looked pretty sharp. I forget how much they wanted for it. For some reason I'm thinking only $4,000, but that seems kinda cheap for a car that was only 4-5 years old at the time.
"Whitacre: "A lot never did. They'd say, 'We didn't do anything wrong. It's the economy.' Boy I didn't have time to linger with that kind of attitude. They had no flexibility. They'd been in the GM environment too long."
"Whitacre: "Oh, I'm sure they did. One guy at our Monday meeting said he'd be absent the next week because he'd be in California. I said, 'If you go to California, just stay there, 'cause you won't have a job when you come back.' It was GM's culture that there was never a sense of urgency."
"The truth is, GM has changed. It still has work to do, and yes, there are still parts of GM that remain stuck in old habits. That said, a number of the automaker's top executives move quicker than their predecessors and they have a vision for where to take the automaker."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100977609
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I liked hot fwd hot hatches along with muscle cars. But I generally didn't like full-size cars.
That pretty much describes my experience. I remember growing up, my dad having a Grand Torino which was completely rusted out within 4 years and ready for the bone yard after 6 with less than 40k miles on it. The replacement, a '79 Caprice Classic wagon left as stranded for the first two years several times. He replaced that with an '85 Tempo that wasn't horrible, but it wasn't very good either.
I remember as a kid it wasn't all that unusual to see to tow truck in the neighborhood to provide a jump or a tow for a variety of lousy domestic and a few German makes in the '80s.
The foreign brands needed their tows too. I recall giving rides to a coworker back in the early 80s because his VW wouldn't run. I recall the Audi's in the cold spell we had in Cincinnati sitting along the roadside because of the cold--hope I'm remembering the right vehicle.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I rarely, if ever, remember a Honda, Toyota or Mazda breaking down in that era. I do seem to remember they rusted a bit more and didn't love the cold, but on the whole they were much less troublesome than any domestic we owned. We were at the local Ford dealer at least once a month for one of our vehicles (2 Fords and a Mercury), my grandparents were the same with their 2 Fords. It just wasn't a good time for the American makes overall.
What the Germans had was this phenomenon unknown to American car owners---brakes and handling. :P In that category, the Japanese were not much better than the domestics.
Those of us in the car biz or car hobby back then often speculated that we could build the perfect car by somehow merging the best qualities of American, Japanese and German engineering, styling and build quality.
Maybe we're actually seeing this happening in 2013 cars.
July 2013 Porsche 911 Sales = 794
July 2013 Chevy Corvette Sales = 671
Hmmm...Indeed!
I thought you never believe main stream media and the like? Do you believe actual sales data?
I think you have, as is always the case in that niche, people not buying the current car and waiting to check out the completely new car.
I'm sure there are some owners who did that. But hearing it more than once on these boards - it also could be that D3 loyalsits are using that as a catch-all excuse for why they the D3 were losing so much business. It's as if it's too hard to admit that at that time, the D3 vehicles really were worse in many ways and the ToyHon vehicles were really better in a LOT of ways. As I've read on the boards before - "It's ok to admit the truth". The argument that owners must have just been kidding themselves that their Toyota or Honda were actually good seems like it's glossing over reality.
If the early imports from Toyota and Honda were really totally crappy, they wouldn't have done so well. As an example, the Yugo didn't do well. The early Hyundais were junk and as a result the company's reputation was very poor; it took a long climb back with aggressive and much better products to get to where they are today. So why did Honda and Toyota do so well? Why were there huge premiums over sticker in the '80s on those makes? And why were the D3 screaming for import quotas? Because owners were just rationalizing that their Toyotas and Hondas were good? Doesn't seem likely.
I kind of see the possibility for similar shake ups in airlines and telecoms in the near future. Right now they have the benefit of government regulation protections until consumers blow up and say that's enough of the fees and total disregard for customer service. I think that if they don't change their attitude soon we may see changed gov regs and foreign inter US service in both sectors. I just don't understand the US executives head in the sand approach to running their businesses sometimes. Must be the long term, fat salary contracts. Wait, that sounds like a lot of the bums in professional sports these days!
As usual, fantasizing that GM can do no wrong. And still see no 2014 Impalas in my local Chevy dealer. Guess I have to wait for 2015!!
Lastly, there is a smattering of Hertz exclusive Corvette rentals across the Country which take away a few sales on the retail side of things.
Not that I would ever own a Vette myself, at least one that isn't Pre-1968 or so... After that, they just became an overly flashy rides for those that are compensating for something. And the ones I've driven are a handful if you aren't careful. If there was ever a car that I've driven that had too much power, it'd be the one...
I've never driven a 911 myself, but Boxsters and Caymans are better drivers cars to me and don't bite you in the tail if you try to wring out their performance... But both have their followers...
In the past I've heard people say "but for cars you can BUY TODAY". The new Impala has been rated well, but it's not on sale yet.
- While the new Corvette is a huge improvement, it's also rolling into showrooms at a time when it's tougher than ever for dealers to sell sports cars.
"It's tougher for two-door sports cars to stand out," says Weisenfelder." There was a time when the 'vette was 'it' because there were not as many competitors. That's not the case anymore."
A good example is the Porsche 911.-
If that's the case then I stand corrected.
Matter-of-fact, Automotive News had a segment a month or so ago about how dealers are P.O.'d about the stingy allocation of the new cars, based on how many Corvettes were sold there previously. One dealer said he was told to turn a previous Corvette customer who wished to order a C7, away to a dealer some miles away who had a relatively early one allocated.
That's a good sign!
My grandparents used to have a cottage in North Beach, Maryland, about 35-40 miles away. As a kid, we used to go down there alot for family gatherings, but less so as I got older, and eventually it was sold in 1993.
Well, a couple times in the late 80's, I remember one of my uncles, who was going through car issues at the time, borrowed a friend's 1978 or 1979 Malibu Classic. It was a fairly tasteful two-tone brown over creme sort of scheme. The car made it there and back with no issues.
Well, the next time we had a get-together, he drove up in an Audi Fox that he had borrowed. It broke down at the cottage and had to be towed!
Only a sample of one, I know, but I thought it was a bit amusing. My uncle didn't, though! And, I've heard those Audi Foxes were pretty terrible.
And again, I know this is only one reference point, but that 1980 Accord I mentioned, that my friend had, went through one engine and one automatic transmission, and when the second transmission went out at 90,000 miles, his old man made him get rid of it.
His Dad got him a 1986 T-bird, one of those designer editions like Elan or Fila, forget which. It was a really nice car, but just had the 232 V-6. I was driving my '69 Dart GT at the time, which had a 225 slant six, and when my buddy showed up one day in this four year old T-bird, he really gloated about it. Got a bit embarrassed though, when he discovered that my old Dart would still outrun him, though! :-P
Sadly, he wrecked that T-bird. But, I wrecked the Dart, so Kay Sarah Kay Sarah...
Just to correct that blanket statement, depending on model, 'Vettes started at around $50K or so but went well over $100K too.