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The Current State of the US Auto Market

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  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Even with a $30,000 price advantage, it looks like for 2013 the Vette and the 911 will be neck and neck in numbers sold. That is troubling news for Corvette IMO.

    I don't think there are bragging rights for "top seller" in this category.

    With that thinking, Audi should dump the A8. Only sold 74 were sold in July.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    What's troubling is that Corvette is only selling 12,000 cars a year now. Used to be 3X that.

    The Corvette/911 compo was pretty much base model for base model.

    But sure, you can rack up much higher numbers for either car. The Porsche option list is truly staggering, and even Tesla is now jacking up prices on their option list.

    Just a sneaky way to get you to spend more than you planned I guess.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited August 2013
    I think you mean the R8, the A8 actally sold 458 copies in July...

    Still, the Corvette is supposed to be representing "Americas Sports Car" and being out paced by a German car (sales down 32% for the month and 20% for the year btw) is kinda sad IMO. Not to mention if you look at Porsche sales on a global level, the Corvette is peanuts. Same with the R8, which I imagine doesn't really work in America. I spent last fall in Germany and they were extremely popular there.

    Problem is the Corvette hasn't changed it's overall mission in 40+ years. Same wedge profile, same brawny, oversized engine, same odd leaf spring rearend, same (until 2014, haven't looked at them myself yet) chintzy, interior with awful visibility in the hardtop IMO and the same plastic body (Jeremy Clarkson can't review a Corvette without flexing the the rear tip like the Pilsbury Dough Boy). The Corvette is a value for performance bargain but it's not something that I would aspire to myself, certainly not over a Porsche Cayman, never mind a 911.

    Still, there are legions of Corvette fans who wouldn't anything less. THing is that number is shrinking apparently. I myself am not surprised, there are many better choices when I look at the overall package... (Not ignoring the 2014 which I personally find pretty hot)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,467
    My local dealer had 5 or so about a month ago - now they only have one visible, so they are selling even here.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,467
    Porsche option prices can double base MSRP. Boxsters and Caymans can top 100K now. As wealth consolidates, it is a good way to increase profit margins. Wealth consolidation might also be part of why Vettes sell less than in the past. It's always been kind of a middle class supercar - and as the middle class wanes...
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    It's really difficult to stand out as great when most cars are very good or excellent.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    On a personal note, I wish they were being discounted, but I'm years away from a new car though!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    I think you mean the R8, the A8 actally sold 458 copies in July...

    I am honestly stunned that a two-seat car, particularly an outgoing one, still outsold the Audi A8.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    While General Motors is thumping its chest because the new fullsize pickups from Chevrolet and GMC are the first to earn an overall 5 star crash test rating since the standards were upgraded two years ago, Tesla is trumpeting the NHTSA crash testing results for their Model S, saying that the luxury EV achieved the best safety rating ever of any car tested by the highway safety agency. Not only did the Model S earn an overall five-star rating, but the Model S earned 5 stars in every testing category. While 5 is the maximum rating that NHTSA publishes, manufacturers are provided with the overall Vehicle Safety Score, whose scale goes higher, and Teslas says that the Model S’ VSS was 5.4 stars, the highest ever achieved.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I think you mean the R8...

    Yes, I meant the R8.

    Jeremy Clarkson can't review a Corvette without flexing the the rear tip like the Pilsbury Dough Boy

    Well Clarkson would find a way to bash the 911 if it had an American badge on it. To be fair, he didn't hate the base C6 or the C6 Z06. Yes he harps on the fiberglass body and the leaf spring, but he was impressed with the lap times of both.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I'm not at all, the A8 is like the S-Class, BMW 7-series, Lexus LS. A car for the seriously elite buyer who wants the biggest, most luxurious cruiser you can buy. These cars can break the 100k barrier and I bet 90% of them are leased.

    I'm sure A8 sales have also been affected by the newer and sexier A7 as well.

    As someone else mentioned, the (base) Vette is more attainable for the common person. Even as a toy, dropping 50g on one is not outrageous, it's quite the good value IMO.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    It's really difficult to stand out as great when most cars are very good or excellent.

    Two areas where I see fairly significant differences are:

    1 - Drivetrain refinement. As an example, while I like the Cruze, the engine in the rental I had was quite harsh. Not at all like other 4 cyls I've known.
    2 - Interiors aren't keeping up with exteriors. Case in point - there are some Chryslers that I really think look good outside. But inside they're a sea of black hard plastic. GM has gotten a lot better here. Toyota and Honda have been trending worse here.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    I've seen a couple of those A7s around, and agree, that's a sexy looking beast. I've always liked the A8, as well. Those prices are way too blue for my blood, though! Maybe if I had money to burn, and got to the point that buying one would "hurt" me financially about as much as buying my $500 Chrysler did back in 2007, I'd get one!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    edited August 2013
    2 - Interiors aren't keeping up with exteriors. Case in point - there are some Chryslers that I really think look good outside. But inside they're a sea of black hard plastic. GM has gotten a lot better here. Toyota and Honda have been trending worse here.

    I think Chrysler has improved somewhat, but agree they could go a lot further. And sometimes, things look nice at a quick glance, but when you look a bit deeper, you see the cost cutting. On my 2012 Ram, for instance, they do a pretty good job of making the hard plastic look nicer, than in years past...but it's still an awful lot of hard plastic! Maybe in a truck, that's not too bad though.

    Some of the controls and switchgear feel a bit clunky and unrefined, too, like the tilt steering, the cupholder that drops down from the dash, and turn signal. My uncle has managed to jam both the tilt steering and that cupholder, and I'd had to wrestle with them to get them loose.

    Close the door too hard with a window down, and it sounds pretty flimsy, although that's not a Ram-specific problem. Lots of vehicles do that. The window doesn't continue to rattle for a few seconds like a '73 Monte Carlo might, but you can still feel the flimsiness. And when pulling the door closed, I've noticed that the armrest and door panel have some give to them, which makes me wonder if they might pull off one day.

    I guess considering how little I paid for the truck I shouldn't complain too much. But my truck is just a stripper work truck. You can probably option these things up to $40-50K or more, and I'm sure that certain things, like the switchgear, sea of plastic, flimsy doors and interior panels, etc, is going to carry over to them. They just give you leather seats with power adjust, more options, better rims, chrome bumpers and grille, and so on.

    Oh, and I agree...GM has gotten a LOT better with regards to their interiors! Actually, I started noticing that back when the 2004 Malibu came out. While it's still easy to criticize, it still seemed like a big jump over the 2003 Malibu. Similarly, the LaCrosse seemed like a vast improvement over the Century/Regal, the 2006 restyle of the Impala saw an improvement, and so on.

    These improvements weren't necessarily enough to keep up with the competition though. But in the past few years, I think they started to improve in leaps and bounds.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    When the Cruze first came out, something that struck me positively about the interior of the one I looked at, was there was a cloth section above the glovebox on the instrument panel that was covered in the same material as the cloth seats. I thought that was a neat touch that bested a piece of vinyl there as is always the case.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If the early imports from Toyota and Honda were really totally crappy, they wouldn't have done so well.

    I don't think people give VW enough credit for proving the economy and reliability of foreign cars back in the late 60s and early 70's. I was driving Bugs for several years before switching to a Toyota. Not only did they run good, they were easy to fix when they didn't.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    I liked that little detail about the Cruze, as well. Oh, on the subject of steady improvement, I thought the Cobalt was a big leap from the Cavalier. The interior still had a lot of plastic in it, but it seemed to at least line up better, and was more presentable overall than in the past.

    Plus, I could actually fit comfortably in the Cobalt. Not so the Cavalier, Focus, and most other cars in its class. Actually, I think the Cobalt seemed to have slightly better legroom than the Cruze!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    Hooboy Steve, those early Rabbits were nothin' to write home about though (although excellent use of space)!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, the Rabbit really sunk the brand for decades. Glad I got out of VWs when they came along, although the body style was good. People liked Sciroccos too, but the owners I knew complained about reliability.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,682
    The early rabbit is an archexample of the meaning of "econobox." That's what really moved the foreign cars into the mainstream market in the midwest.

    As for the VW not getting credit. The Bugs did get better mileage in the 60s. My college roommate had a VW. He stopped to adjust the valves on his trip home to da Region every trip, according to him. And the heater was good if it was summer time. But for us college guys back then, that was good.

    Of course his car had no power brakes, no power steering, no air conditioning, no power windows, no electrically adjustable mirrors, no almost anything. Well, it did have a reserve gasoline tank.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    Those VW bugs could also hit their top speed more quickly than just about any domestic car out there...
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Yeah, how many cars have reserve gas tanks today? Can't even get one as part of an option package. Just proves that cars were much better then.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    edited August 2013
    People liked Sciroccos too, but the owners I knew complained about reliability.

    Had one. It was a fun car to drive and economical with its 4 cylinder with 4-speed. It had good hauling capability with its hatchback. Most everything offered by American brands that had a 4-cylinder was dumb and clunky and did not handle as well as the VW.

    Reliability was OK. Had to have a valve job under warranty. Failed fuel pump relay left me stranded once.

    Biggest negative was rust on body panels. Of course, American brands were prone to rust also, but VW was to the extreme.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    edited August 2013
    I had two Cavaliers before this Cobalt. They were larger cars--mostly wider I'd say. But the Cobalt is more comfortable IMHO as well as quieter. I'm frequently amazed at how quiet it is, particularly on the highway, and mine is a bottom-feeder model.

    I have to say, my last Cavalier I thought was a better-looking car. It was the deep green metallic that came out in '02 (darker than previous years), it had a very subtle spoiler on the decklid, and had the cheapest 15" aluminum wheels I could specify. Black cloth interior and 5-speed. I always thought it looked nicer than other little coupes that cost more...nice low beltline, teardrop-shaped rear quarter windows, etc.

    My Cavalier before that was a '97 4-door 5-speed. Four-door Cavaliers looked like an egg I think. My girls complained about how hard it was to get into the backseat of the '02, so that's why I went with four-doors in the Cobalt. (The Cavalier did have the front passenger seat that pushed all the way up when you got into the back seat...I remember my friend's '98 Monte Carlo didn't even have that feature.)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Of course his car had no power brakes, no power steering, no air conditioning, no power windows, no electrically adjustable mirrors, no almost anything. Well, it did have a reserve gasoline tank.

    You just described my first car (66 Bug), except that I didn't have the reserve tank. I think those went out in the late '50's or so.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    ...don't forget doing donuts in the snow with those Beetles! Made using the ice scraper on the inside of the windshield well worth it.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    I worked with a guy who bought a new '81 Scirocco S at about the same time I bought a new V8 '81 Monte Carlo. They cost within $100 of each other if I remember correctly.

    He thought mine was a snooze, but I used to complain about having to get in the back seat of his. His response: "Lose some weight"!

    I remember the interior of his was black with red stripes on the seats. The thing I remember most about it was that the dash would wave at you when he let up on the clutch!

    He did like it a lot though.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Are you serious? Because a car had a reserve tank it made them "much better" than a car without one?

    Don't you know why VW's had a reserve tank?

    It's because they didn't have a GAS GUAGE! 1962 was the first year they installed gas gauges. Until then, you drove it until it started to run out of gas and at that point you turned a lever on the floor with your foot which opened the reserve tank.

    Now, if you forgot to turn that lever back when you got gas you were up a creek (and out of gas) the next time it happened!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Well now...I grew up with old VW bugs and busses and although I have very fond memories of them they had their problems too.

    Engine overhauls and valve jobs were pretty common around the 60,000 mark.

    And, yes, they were easy and cheap to work on! I wish I had a nice one now!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    There's no chance you would ever consider another brand is there? If you did, you may find out how not quiet, your car really is.....
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2013
    I was sold after driving one to Alaska and back in '73 with nothing but a flat and a busted windshield (the road was almost all gravel back then). But yeah, the '69 bus I had access to for a year or so pulled a head gasket number and died in Memphis traffic while I was trying to make a left turn.

    Wouldn't want a Bug now, unless it was to drive around the retirement community and beep at the golf cars. Talked to the owner of this one last week and he wouldn't want a Bus as a daily driver.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    edited August 2013
    There's no chance you would ever consider another brand is there? If you did, you may find out how not quiet, your car really is.....

    You are under the very-mistaken impression that I don't either drive or ride in other cars.

    My coworker has an '05 Civic and an '09 Matrix. We carpool 300 miles each way one week a month, along with a third guy (who is 65 1/2 and never owned any vehicle but a Ford). Both the Civic and Matrix are noisier on the highway than my Cobalt--noticeably so.

    The Ford guy volunteered to me, out of earshot of the third guy, that my Cobalt is quieter than either of his (the third guy's) cars. And absolute truth be told, it is.

    Unpopular here, but true.

    And the Cobalt idles so smoothly and quietly, you really do have to check sometimes that it is running. And I got that out of the guy who owns the Civic and the Matrix, himself even.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,682
    >that my Cobalt is quieter than either of his (the third guy's) cars.

    I can vouch for that. It's as quiet as our 03 leSabre Limited Celebration.


    >And the Cobalt idles so smoothly and quietly, you really do have to check sometimes that it is running. And I got that out of the guy who owns the Civic and the Matrix, himself even.

    Yes indeed, it is very smooth.

    I've had to pinch myself to no buy a used Cobalt that's overpriced at a dealer with not so many miles on it (but more than our low mileage vehicle). The Cobalt is an LT1. If it were LT2 and w/the options I liked, I'd buy it.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    If you say so - I can hear your Ecotec idling from here..... They sound like paint mixers.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    edited August 2013
    Sorry, but I have to respectfully call B.S. There is simply no way you could have ever ridden long-distance in one and come to that conclusion.

    Admittedly, my car is a 5-speed, but idle is idle.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited August 2013
    I've driven an ecotec powered Equinox and was far from impressed. With the a/c on it definitely has a noticeable shake. With my foot in the throttle it sounded like a scalded dog.

    Apparently I'm not crazy, as the following quote is from an Autoblog review of a manual trans cobalt.

    "But that’s all, because redlining the Ecotec nets in more four-banger thrash than its competition, giving the impression of an underhood Anthrax concert controlled by one’s right foot."
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    edited August 2013
    uplander said: "We carpool 300 miles each way one week a month, along with a third guy (who is 65 1/2 and never owned any vehicle but a Ford). "

    How very sad. Not only not exposed to numerous and superior "foreign makes" but other good American brands as well. Don't think the younger generation 21-35 is so inhibited to only consider and buy one brand. Think that the youngsters have an open mind with regard to "consumer" products.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You are under the very-mistaken impression that I don't either drive or ride in other cars.

    I'm guessing his question was related to owning rather than sampling.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I can vouch for that. It's as quiet as our 03 leSabre Limited Celebration.

    How would you compare the Cobalt in NVH when accelerating versus some of the mentioned imports?

    I know the Cruze I drove was fairly bad and growly. I've had Hondas, Mazdas, and VWs that had far smoother 4's than at least some of the domestics I've driven. But a rental Corolla around 8 years ago was pretty bad, too.

    Honest question, just curious. Is th Cobalt's idle refinement present throughout the entire rev range? If it is, I wonder why GM didn't use that engine instead of the other harsh mills they have?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, I remember when brake discs were solid like a manhole cover and could be resurfaced several times. Now, they're wafer-thin and can warp at the drop of a hat!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Over the past three years, Toyota has quietly elevated four Michiganians to this rarefied tier in its corporate hierarchy and transferred responsibility for five vehicle lines to its technical center south of Ann Arbor. The moves are part of a broader effort to transform the once-insular Toyota into a more global company, one worthy of the title of world’s largest automaker. And they demonstrate the growing importance of Michigan to Toyota today."

    Michigan gets role in shaping Toyota's future (Detroit News)
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    PT Cruisers had their day in the sun and now they rot on the used car lots.

    It was a brilliant move on the part of Chrysler to take a lackluster Neon and fit it with a retro body. People lined up in droves and paid over MSRP for the first year or so. But the novelty wore off quickly.

    They weren't "bad" cars but they were nothing special either. they had dismal crash test results and they were for many people uncomfortable.

    But, they were "cute" they held a lot in the back.

    In their later years, they were the darling of the rental car companies who bought them and later dumped then en masse further dropping the value.

    Having said that, as a used car they probably aren't a bad buy if they appeal to you.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I was being cynical.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited August 2013
    "If it is, I wonder why GM didn't use that engine instead of the other harsh mills they have?"

    GM was seeking better fuel economy for the cruise than the 2.2 delivered. The 1.4 I-4 turbo powered Cruise delivers considerably better fuel economy than the Cobalt, or the base 1.8 Cruise engine. However, the I-4 turbo is also less powerful than the Cobalt 2.2.

    I rented a Cobalt a few years ago and was generally satisfied that it was a decent performer, good room for a compact, and okay overall. My main complaint was with the steering, which lacked the feel and responsiveness of, say, the Jetta or Focus of that period. Since steering feel is important to me I wouldn't have bought a Cobalt, but I'm sure the steering is satisfactory for many thousands of owners.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    edited August 2013
    What is truly sad is that so many people here have formed judgments without as much as a single 600-mile round-trip commute (as I've made scores of times in my coworker's vehicles)...not to mention numerous rentals I've had of foreign makes. Have you made even a sixty-mile trip in a Cobalt? I'm usually left with 'what's the big deal?' after I drive an import.

    And you must admit it is human nature to "gang up". That writer's goal was to be 'witty', first and foremost. Yet, folks here let him make the decision for them. I'll admit that as an adult, in everyday traffic, I don't feel the need to 'redline'...ever.

    BTW, I would never tell you how you should wake up and smell the coffee about which cars to buy. I know why I continue to buy Chevrolet. It's value, low-cost maintenance, and a competent dealer. Plus, for many reasons, I prefer to buy an American brand. I've bought four new Chevrolets that were built forty miles down the road. All were driven high miles by me, reliably and economically. People who live here, and also live in the town where I grew up forty miles on the other side of the plant, work there. There's no bad in any of that.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    edited August 2013
    Dieselone, the same engine was never used in the Cobalt and the Equinox.

    Apparently I'm the only person here who has spent any road time in a Cobalt, older Civic, and Matrix, back-to-back.

    My Ford co-worker feels much like I do in that respect..the import 'superiority' is hype. And being numbers guys, we disdain 'hype'.

    He traded in an '02 Escape with mileage well into the 100's, on a new '13 Escape which he keeps immaculate and is happy with. I've ridden in it numerous times and have driven it several times.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    edited August 2013
    I own an '08 PT Cruiser for my older daughter who is taking it to Miami U. tomorrow.

    I paid $6,930 for it when it was 25 months old and had 45.8K miles.

    Other than a fan module I replaced a couple months ago, which was making it idle quite roughly at stop with the A/C on, it's been reliable. It's very roomy, taking the daughter's cello in the back no sweat, and we all like the seating position--higher than our Chevys. In fact, when my wife hurt her back, she drove the PT exclusively a few months ago. The MPG is mediocre but not terrible. For a car driven 6 or 7K miles a year, it's served its purpose well.

    I hate that it's built in Mexico, but as a used car I figured the damage was done. ;)

    In fact, I'd be looking at another one for daughter #2, but she absolutely hates the way it looks--you know, first priority for a teenager.

    She's not very happy with our current decision to make her learn to drive the 5-speed in the Cobalt.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    There is nothing bad about your automobile choices. It doesn't matter what anyone writes about your brand make or models. You buy what you like and what works. You can also debate as you wish.

    GM products don't work for me and I've contributed to their profits after spending in the 6 figures over my lifetime. They failed my expectations.

    So now, they can not merely meet the competition for consideration. They are improving and I was an early supporter of the new Impala after I saw my first in Virginia. I tested the Cadenza and was impressed. I haven't tested the Impala but will after there becomes available a V-6 in my local dealer.

    The competition is still ahead of GM in many areas. No room to stop critical analysis, afaic. Too many old gremlins left in the New GM.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I think it's great you are making your kids drive a stick. My oldest has her driving permit and I'd love to find something with a manual for her to drive. I'm still waiting for used car values to go down. Everything seems overpriced around here.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,077
    It's much easier to have them learn stick if there's a manual transmission car in the family. My oldest son inherited his grandpa's car. Basic motivation: here's a car you can drive if you learn how. No such motivation for my younger ones so they never learned to drive stick. If they were saving up their own $$, they were buying automatic.
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
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