I'm having some electrical glitches, as well. Mostly minor stuff so far, but irritating. The switch to one of the rear reading lights broke, making it stay on all the time, so I took out the bulb. The fuel gauge starts telling little white lies once it gets down to about a half tank. Probably not *too* big of a fix, but I've learned to live with it. Rear window defroster shorted out, and it's something more than just a fuse. The up/down adjustment in both power seats up front have failed. And most recently, a "low tire pressure" warning keeps popping up, even though the tires are all fine. I think when the tensioner let go back in April, the shrapnel might have taken out one of the pressure sensors. It also took a chunk out of the battery, although it wasn't until about two weeks later that the car started acting up because of it.
Oh, and at one point, when I was dealing with those battery issues, the fuel gauge needle spiked all the way around and ended up on the wrong side of the needle! Imidazol97 helped me out of that one, suggesting I take a magnet to it, and it might swing it back around. And, it did. Took four of those little round red magnets that they use to hold up cables and such, but I got it to swing around!
"I'm having some electrical glitches, as well. Mostly minor stuff so far, but irritating. The switch to one of the rear reading lights broke, making it stay on all the time, so I took out the bulb. The fuel gauge starts telling little white lies once it gets down to about a half tank. Probably not *too* big of a fix, but I've learned to live with it. Rear window defroster shorted out, and it's something more than just a fuse. The up/down adjustment in both power seats up front have failed. And most recently, a "low tire pressure" warning keeps popping up, even though the tires are all fine. I think when the tensioner let go back in April, the shrapnel might have taken out one of the pressure sensors. It also took a chunk out of the battery, although it wasn't until about two weeks later that the car started acting up because of it. "
It's those evil capitalists! They are ruining everything;)
Most of the folks I knew who lived like paupers with a few million in the bank, lived well into their 80's. Their heirs bought new houses, took first class vacations and indulged themselves with high end cars. "Thanks Mom and Dad."
Is your pressure sensing done by actual sensors inside the rim or is it done by the ABS system speed rings where it's checking the rotation speed of the wheel compared to others and to the car speed. If it's the last, the RESET on the Driver Information Center should reset tires after rotation or pressure adjustment. I read somewhere (factory service manual maybe) that there are 3 different speed ranges where the computer checks the relative rotation speeds, apparently with different expectation levels for the ABS-based system.
If it's the last and the tires are all correctly pressured and the system has been RESET, are the tires different in size from each other? Friend's mom had a car where a tire was replaced at tire store under warranty and they put on a 215 instead of 205, or some error similar. That caused an occasional pressure warning. Is one tire worn more than others?
I think you'll find that clutches typically aren't warrantied like other items since one's driving can affect them so much.
Ahhh, the lost art of driving a manual. I miss having a manual car. They're getting fairly hard to find these days. (Yes, I know there's a specific forum for this topic).
I don't know how the tire pressure system works. But, all four tires are the same size, 225/60/R16, were bought at the same time back around September 2011, and have plenty of tread on them.
I'll see if the Reset button works...thanks for the suggestion!
"I've put 418K miles on four of the dirt-cheapest Chevys with clutches you could buy. I didn't replace a one of them. "
Ah, yes, the good old days when everything from wheel bearings to clutch/pressure plates were way over-built... I remember them well.
As I was growing up, almost any clutch failure was automatically seen as driver abuse or neglect. Low-revving engines, thick single-plate pressure plates and heavy duty clutch disks would run forever, with the occasional throw-out bearing failure.
Nowadays, with dual-mass flywheels widespread, coupled with torquey four cylinder engines, drivers that don't adapt their driving styles to the new reality often see fairly rapid clutch failure, and make the claim "it can't be my fault, I've been driving manuals for 40+ years".
I wouldn't buy a Mexico-built one. I'd look for a Fort Wayne truck--which is eventually what one will end up seeing the most of near where I live anyway.
At least you have a choice. Not all are from Mexico. And I'm not aware of any Chevy passenger cars that are built there.
BTW, despite what some wrote on the 'Buying American...' forum here, the engine and trans final assembly locations are not factored into the U.S. and Canada parts content percentages on the window sticker. GM's window stickers spell that out.
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Nowadays, with dual-mass flywheels widespread, coupled with torquey four cylinder engines, drivers that don't adapt their driving styles to the new reality often see fairly rapid clutch failure, and make the claim "it can't be my fault, I've been driving manuals for 40+ years".
I can't drive a stick worth a darn (although if my life depended on it I could make do), so I'm out of the loop, but I was under the impression that today's stick shifts were more "idiot proof" than in days gone by? But, perhaps not, if they're burning up more quickly?
"I can't drive a stick worth a darn (although if my life depended on it I could make do), so I'm out of the loop, but I was under the impression that today's stick shifts were more "idiot proof" than in days gone by? But, perhaps not, if they're burning up more quickly?"
Like most things in vehicles today, weight savings is a high priority. Clutches, bearings (both wheel and drive-line) and gears/shafts back 30 years or so ago were over-engineered and would take tons of abuse. Over-sized bearings would accept lots of abuse, too, with the downside of larger bearings=increased friction (drag), resulting in lower mpg.
Weight is a major concern today, and any place a few ounces can be saved, it will be...
Common sense tells us that a lighter weight material used in manufacturing a transmission shaft will probably not hold up as reliably or as well as a hardened steel shaft of the same size.
That's one reason dual mass flywheels were introduced, in order to isolate the transmission from the higher torque output of newer 4-6 cylinder engines, as the 2-piece flywheel acts as a shock absorber. For that to work as intended, however, the engine needs to be at a higher rpm when engaging the clutch as compared to, say, a 1969 Chevy Nova 6-cylinder 3-speed manual.
What a lot of older manual drivers fail to do is understand that specific different requirement (and to be honest, I have yet to find a new car salesman that even remotely addresses the issue), so they end up quite perturbed when they are told they need a new clutch/pressure plate in something like a Mini Cooper S model with only 5-10K miles on the odometer... And, it isn't covered under warranty, either...
While I agree with the points you make, I think the way the car is driven makes the greatest difference in the longevity of the clutch. I've observed that Europeans, including taxi drivers, are generally much easier on clutches and manual transmissions than Americans. Even when driving fast, Europeans tend to be more gentle on clutches, especially, and transmissions too, than Americans. Just my observation.
The difference I've observed is that there isn't as much road rage in Europe. They're fast, and aggressive, and take chances, but they don't hold grudges.
Less road rage, maybe, but just as much competitive spirit behind the wheel. Less emphasis on standing start acceleration in Europe too, but more on high speed driving, although stricter enforcement has moderated that somewhat in recent years.
I don't, so I wouldn't buy a Mexican-built one. Why reward a manufacturer for building out of the country?
And it is relevant to me, to be able to have the choice. Some manufacturer's product is only built in Mexico.
And it is relevant to remember that location of engine and transmission assembly isn't factored into the parts percentage, despite what some have posted elsewhere on Edmunds. ("What? Something non-factual posted by someone on Edmunds?")
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There are posters on both sides of that aisle. And the regulars know who each other are.
I think the most rational folks here know the truth about that comment.
Far, far more people actually post wrong or false stuff, post opinion as fact, leave enormously relevant information out, or even insult the intelligence of those who choose to buy GM, than the other way around.
The GM-supporters only post to rebut.
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And it is relevant to remember that location of engine and transmission assembly isn't factored into the parts percentage, despite what some have posted elsewhere on Edmunds. ("What? Something non-factual posted by someone on Edmunds?")
Why would a metric of parts content factor in a location of assembly, anyway? Makes no sense to me.
Far, far more people actually post wrong or false stuff, post opinion as fact, leave enormously relevant information out, or even insult the intelligence of those who choose to buy GM, than the other way around.
The GM-supporters only post to rebut.
The fact that there are so many people aggravated by GM must say something.
Nowadays, with dual-mass flywheels widespread, coupled with torquey four cylinder engines, drivers that don't adapt their driving styles to the new reality often see fairly rapid clutch failure, and make the claim "it can't be my fault, I've been driving manuals for 40+ years".
Interesting..I went to read a bit about this as I had not heard of this before. Or at least not heard of design being behind premature wear.
But so far, from what I have read, there still seems to be a common theme.. and that is aggressive driving. In order to experience the premature wear, it requires the driver to have a more open throttle than what would be considered a normal application needed to do simple stop and go maneuvers in traffic. So, unless these dual mass flywheel systems and the clutch itself are being built too light, which is highly probable, then it goes back to driver error. OTOH, when you consider how many vehicles seem to be affected by this, and when you consider that many owners/victims have driven manuals for much of their life and have a basis of comparison with regards to expected clutch life given their past driving habits, my guess is..the technology is not only being built too light (probably to ensure their initial execution goal of suppressing vibration) but it is also answering a question that no one has been asking...especially when you consider that internal gear driven counter-balancers are the norm these days anyway, so vibes are already well controlled. Sure makes for a great return revenue source though for the manufacturers, at the expense of consumer disgruntlement.
I have a feeling this might be also why cars like the Cruze diesel are coming with no manual trans option.
"The fact that there are so many people aggravated by GM must say something."
No doubt, but as everyone knows by middle school, stereotyping and generalizing, and holding onto something forever (particularly something not life-threatening or otherwise evil), are not very good things. 1995 is eighteen years ago; 2003 is ten years ago.
Speaking of holding onto something forever...for all I read here, repeatedly, about Neons, I was behind one..again...today. I bet I see them on the road daily, here in salty NE OH. They're almost always the second-generation though. And those cars are old by now.
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"Even crashing into a wall is good news nowadays for Tesla Motors. Independent testing by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has awarded the company a 5-star safety rating, not just overall, but in every subcategory. While its five-star score across the board has been attained by other vehicles (around one percent of all cars tested are capable of such a score) its ratings in individual categories are higher than any other vehicle, including larger SUVs and minivans. What's really interesting is that part of the safety rating may be because the car is electric."
"Why would a metric of parts content factor in a location of assembly, anyway? Makes no sense to me."
Me neither. Ask some of the posters over on that forum.
I think posts to the otherwise were to lessen the beneficial effect of GM assembling many transmissions and engines in the U.S., nothing more. People only throw out parts percentages over on that forum.
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I didn't intend my post to be a personal attack against you, but, rather, a criticism of the intensity of the dislike you express for GM, and the frequency that you mention it. What you write about GM lacks balance, in my opinion. Your messages overemphasize the products' negatives, while ignoring or minimizing the positives. Of course, you're free to say whatever you wish about GM, as frequently as you wish.
I understand what you are saying, but I'm sorry this is an open forum and we are all grownups here. We are talking about inanimate objects here, not someones family...
"Balance"?
A joke of a term that was coined by a certain individual who is probably upset because this thread got renamed and because there isn't enough action in that "Balanced" thread
The same individual who still thinks car purchases should be based on what happened in 1942... And has only owned vehicles from one automaker. So much for "balance"... "Balance" = B.S. This is not a GM fansite and AFAIC it never has been. Myself, and nobody else on here should have to P-foot around here because it might hurt someones feelings... (for an inanimate object and a company full of arrogant goons who could give 2 bits about them)
Look, I don't know you personally, I don't know anyone on here personally and I have never met anyone on Edmunds in my life. Nor do I expect to. But I mean zero disrespect to anyone here, even those that I don't agree with. I don't mean to come off as a jerk here, but IMO my member participation is being mis-represented here and frankly I don't appreciate it.
So, I'm sorry my opinions of GM are not all fairys and pixie dust. But I can say with full confidence that my posts that you and others percieve as "harsh" always have reasoning behind it ( I invite anyone to find a post that doesn't?). Some people just don't want to comprehend it because, well... it goes against their BIAS. I've worked with GM in the past as a vendor. They are arrogant, unreasonable pricks. I've owned their products and they were somewhere between lackluster to flawed to outright garbage. GM is a leader of nothing in my eyes. And lastly, I don't support the UAW. But my posts and those posts by people I don't agree with are but words on the computer screen. Again, I don't take anything their fans say personally.
But hey, everyone is entitled to their biases. Me, I don't have any. I just don't like GM. And I don't have to. There's a 13th amendment to back me up from that "balanced" document known as the Constitution.
Welcome to America, enjoy your stay.
I won't say anything further about this. It is derailing the topic at hand and IMO a waste of bandwidth. Take care.
It does say something about cars _then_. I don't hear many people posting in Honda about the early Hondas. Like the one my friend had that died when driven in the frequent hard rains in Charleston. That wouldn't restart until the next day. That showed rusting after 1 year in the salty environs there. That jumped over a lane if you accelerated hard due to torque steer.
Some of the folks aren't open minded about how things have changed. And some are working for a vicarious thrill that they've trolled the topic.
Only here is 'balance'--or both sides of the story, or the whole story--considered a bad thing!
I can only rack it up to a difference in where we all live now/lived when we grew up. The difference in initial approaches to a topic here is palpable.
I know one former regular poster here who avoids the area completely now because of the total lack of anything resembling balance here.
You will not find a post from me that overtly disses someone's judgment for buying a certain make of car, nor calling a car a POS when I've never sat in or driven one. I have indeed seen that here from the other side. Real open-minded. I've driven tons of rental everythings over the years.
The GM/domestic haters--and there's really nothing else they can be called--can post what they like, but we can continue to rebut when ridiculous, exaggerated, and/or non-factual things are posted as reality, as well.
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That is what I had done. I thought my post sorta indicated that by its content..plus I added my own take on things..which I don't think is likely too far off the mark.
I think one reason people don't gripe about early Hondas is that when the Japanese first came to these shores, they started off in smaller volume, so there simply weren't as many buyers to experience how crappy they were.
And, in the markets they were competing, the domestics were pretty crappy, anyway.
Back in high school and college, one of my friends had a 1980 Honda Accord hatchback, and I had a 1980 Malibu coupe. Seriously, if every GM car had been as good as that Malibu, and if every Honda had been the turd that Accord was, Honda would have been driven from our shores ages ago. And, by today's standards, that Malibu wasn't that great of a car.
But, alas, GM and the domestics were inconsistent in those days, so every GM car wasn't as good as that Malibu. Some were better. Many were worse. And when it came to small cars that competed with the Accord, some were much, much worse.
I wonder though if, in the long run, something like a 1980 Chevette might have been a more reliable, durable car, than a 1980 Accord? When new, at least, an Accord was a much nicer, more comfortable car than a Chevette though, so a lot of people probably steered clear of the Chevette based on that fact alone. Who cares how long it lasts, if you hate it?
Re late 70s + early 80s era GM A cars...was it A? I forget...but all those downsized models that started in 78...at least with the Accord, if it rusted, it was body panels that you could see. This is a more desirable option than trailing arm hinge points that rusted so badly they would fail on-the-fly and allow the (rear) axle to steer the car without any warning to its driver, when they finally succumbed to the corrosion.
My mother, who never thought at all about non-American cars, bought a Toyota sedan in 1969 because Detroit really didn't make small cars then. That car lasted over 200k and she never bought another American car again. Those early Toyotas and Hondas were not sophisticated and as reliable compared to today but they were light years better than Detroit cars that would be their competition. And don't even get me started on the awful Chevette.
Yeah, that was the A-body, although they rebadged it as the G in 1982, when the Celebrity, Ciera, 6000, and FWD Century came out.
Another dirty little truth about those GM RWD intermediates, is that when rear-ended, they could be a bit Pinto-esque. Now, they wouldn't necessarily blow up at 11 mph like a Pinto would, but they were implicated in a few fiery deaths.
I had three of those A/G bodies, and liked them all. In addition the Malibu, I had an '82 Cutlass Supreme with a 231 V-6, and a 1986 Monte Carlo with a 305. The Cutlass was, sadly, a turd. I bought it used for $800 in 1993 with 61,000 miles, and soon after it ate a transmission. And shockingly, it wasn't the troubleprone THM200...it was the more durable THM350! Around 73,000 miles it lost all oil pressure. One of my friends got it working again, replacing the gear in the pump (thankfully, easy to do on the 3.8) and it sort of worked. But my mechanic said to not put another penny into it, because it was on its way out. In spite of that though, I really liked that car. It was good looking, comfortable, a great highway cruiser, and I loved the color, which was either "Light Jadestone", or the other color GM had that year that was really close. With Rally wheels color keyed to match.
The Monte was bought new by my Mom, and she gave it to me with 179,000 miles on it, in early 1998. Three months later, while delivering pizzas, I got t-boned by a teen in a 1992 or so Tempo, with 192,000 on it, and it was enough to total it.
Dunno if I'd want another one of those cars today though. I think GM did a pretty good job when they downsized their big cars in 1977. But with the 1978 models, I think they just went TOO far. I have a 1976 LeMans, so I can compare the '78+ intermediates to what they replaced. The '78+ cars were more space-efficient, and the biggest improvement was in the back seat of the coupes. The trunks were a bit bigger, mainly because the '73-77's had such sloped-off decklids. But overall, the '78+ models just feel flimsier and tinnier, more fragile. My '76 feels pretty solid, and looking underneath, the fuel tank seems pretty well-protected. The body gaps are huge, the hood flutters a bit at high speeds, and if you slam a door with the window down it sounds horrible. Oh, and just remember that the "Oh Jesus Handle" on the dashboard is just for show...do NOT try to grab it or it will probably tear right off! But, other than that, it's a quality piece! ;-P
Oh, as for my buddy's Accord, even though it was rusting like crazy, it still had a solid, quality feel to it. It cruzed very well at 80 mph, even if it did take a long time to get there. And the sheetmetal actually seemed pretty thick on it. So it definitely had its attributes.
On the subject of the Chevette, I wonder if we could get that classified as a foreign car? :-P After all, it was sold as the Opel Kadette, Isuzu I-Mark, Daewoo Maepsy, and Lord-knows what else!
I remember seeing one of those Chevette-based I-Marks in the late 80's. Seemed superior to what we got stuck with, in just about every way. More attractive, nicer interior, and so on. Seems like every time a "World Car" gets introduced, the US gets the short end of the stick!
"I wonder though if, in the long run, something like a 1980 Chevette might have been a more reliable, durable car, than a 1980 Accord? When new, at least, an Accord was a much nicer, more comfortable car than a Chevette though, so a lot of people probably steered clear of the Chevette based on that fact alone. Who cares how long it lasts, if you hate it?"
I really don't know much about Japanese cars from that era. Though I did have a buddy in HS that had an '80 or so Accord 2dr hatch with a manual trans. I actually thought it was nice car for a compact. I don't remember it being problematic. But I do remember doing 100 mph in it when it turned 100k miles. Having another friend with a Pontiac T1000, no way could that have been duplicated in that POC. I have no idea what the price comparison was between the two. The Accord could have been twice as expensive when new for all I know.
The first Japanese car to really get my attention (I grew up D3 all the way) was an '85 or '86 Maxima v6 that a steel mill co-worker of my grandpa bought right after he retired. He let me drive it and I was pretty well blown away by the smoothness of the powertrain etc. Sure, it wasn't the best looking car in the world, but to me, it made my grandpa's 83 Delta 88 feel archaic and slow.
From there it was a friend's mom's '87 Accord LX-i. Wow, I never knew a 4 cylinder could be so powerful and smooth revving. Since I was around a lot of 4cyl domestics it wasn't hard to like what Honda offered at the time. In general I've been impressed with the powertrain and overall refinement of the Asian makes.
That's how I ended up with my first Asian vehicle an '01 Nissan Pathfinder LE. The new at the time 3.5VQ v6 just blew me away. Along with how well it drove and how tight the whole vehicle was. I planned on buying a new Jeep Liberty, but the dealer also sold Nissan. I test drove the Liberty and wasn't overly impressed. Then on a whim I drove the Pathfinder. Wow, it made the 3.7 in the Liberty feel like a garbage disposal and acceleration felt like it was dragging a 2 ton anchor compared to the Nissan. They were just light years apart. Sure the Nissan was more money, but not exceeding so and the reality is it felt like a bargain to get so much more vehicle for only a few more thousand dollars (Nissan had some serious lease incentives at the time).
I've mainly had positive experiences with the Japanese makes, I've had mixed experiences with Fords and Chrysler vehicles, and honestly I've really disliked most GM vehicles I've been around for a variety of reason. Mainly I don't like how they drive and perform (at least the one's I've owned and driven). The fact that they tend to fall apart in my hands doesn't help.
> they started off in smaller volume, so there simply weren't as many buyers to experience how crappy they were.
Right on with those points in your posts. The US built cars were downsized but built like large cars shrunk rather than being designed to be light, agile, cheaper.
The early imports were very fuel efficient. After the Jimmy Carter gas crisis, that was appealing even if the car drummed and boomed while driven because it was so thin and cheap. Fuel mileage.
Also, many would never admit their foreign car had a fault. So they were all _perfect_, rationalized in some way in the owner's mind to be that, at least.
A coworker in the 90s or so pointed out his 100+ K mi Corolla had a fan belt and clutch to go out. My cars had power windows, steering, brakes, auto transmission, etc. On his, nothing to break that he couldn't jack up and fix himself.
And as the companies sold more and were forced to build factories here, the cars enlarged to keep up with the young, financially strapped buyers they started with, who were aging. So the Accord got bigger, fatter, taller, and added more "stuff." And they preened their image in their advertising to enhance the ego-related word-of-mouth image that helped them.
That same word-of-mouth image was working against GM, with high-priced UAW and management dumb as a box of rocks. Also the Ralph Nader syndrom of hating GM because they were the 9th largest economic element in the word ahead of many countries in their output of value. The term "military industrical complex" was often bandied about with GM as part.
Add to that an aging dealer network who sold cars rather than preened customers was/is a negative. The dealers for the foreign cars scared the owners that they had to return every 3000 miles for Honda oil or the engine would blow up. The toyota had to have a toyota oil filter and only toyota knew how to take care of their car. These threats on simple-minded owners got the customers back so the cars could be maintained and checked. In fact, the coworker mentioned above found his toyota wagon with the top of the engine removed when he went into the work area. He brought the car in for rear brakes, with the brakes being a known problem. toyota was replacing something wrong in the engine without his knowing. That's an advantage when you get the customer back, fix things that may go wrong in the future, and even if you just get the customer to do preventative maintenance.
Compare to the GM/Ford/Mopar owner of the 90s and 00s. People bring in their Grand Am only when it's knocking and banging. Then are made that the company built it to break down when it didn't see proper, frequent service checks.
BTW, I was ridiculed in another forum here for pointing out my opinion that the dealers being able to get cars in and to get people to do maintenance was a big factor in helping the Hotoy image. The service manager was talking to me at my Buick dealer about that while they were Road Force balancing my tires on my new leSabre. But that concept was not new in my mind: I had heard a Louisville radio talk show with 3 principles/managers of dealerships talking about the difference in the dealer experience.
I think about the Lexus experience here where they advertised in past years about picking up your car and leaving a loaner at your home to take it for regular service. Who knows what else they replace and do that the owner never realizes was wrong--as the dealers and car companies should take care of upcoming problems.
Well, Honda and Toyota dealerships have been legendary for horrendous customer relations for ages, particularly in those days. You bought an 80's Toyota in spite of the dealership, not because of it. They were dead last in practically every Consumer Report survey of those decades.
It's not that people thought these cars or the dealers were perfect. They were just better than the competition. And the Big 3 just wouldn't/couldn't make good fuel-efficient small cars for a very long time. There was a niche and it got filled.
Comments
Oh, and at one point, when I was dealing with those battery issues, the fuel gauge needle spiked all the way around and ended up on the wrong side of the needle! Imidazol97 helped me out of that one, suggesting I take a magnet to it, and it might swing it back around. And, it did. Took four of those little round red magnets that they use to hold up cables and such, but I got it to swing around!
It's those evil capitalists! They are ruining everything;)
If it's the last and the tires are all correctly pressured and the system has been RESET, are the tires different in size from each other? Friend's mom had a car where a tire was replaced at tire store under warranty and they put on a 215 instead of 205, or some error similar. That caused an occasional pressure warning. Is one tire worn more than others?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I've put 418K miles on four of the dirt-cheapest Chevys with clutches you could buy. I didn't replace a one of them.
I think you'll find that clutches typically aren't warrantied like other items since one's driving can affect them so much.
Ahhh, the lost art of driving a manual. I miss having a manual car. They're getting fairly hard to find these days. (Yes, I know there's a specific forum for this topic).
I'll see if the Reset button works...thanks for the suggestion!
http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-ahead-of-schedule-in-2013-truck-sell-down.html
Ah, yes, the good old days when everything from wheel bearings to clutch/pressure plates were way over-built... I remember them well.
As I was growing up, almost any clutch failure was automatically seen as driver abuse or neglect. Low-revving engines, thick single-plate pressure plates and heavy duty clutch disks would run forever, with the occasional throw-out bearing failure.
Nowadays, with dual-mass flywheels widespread, coupled with torquey four cylinder engines, drivers that don't adapt their driving styles to the new reality often see fairly rapid clutch failure, and make the claim "it can't be my fault, I've been driving manuals for 40+ years".
At least you have a choice. Not all are from Mexico. And I'm not aware of any Chevy passenger cars that are built there.
BTW, despite what some wrote on the 'Buying American...' forum here, the engine and trans final assembly locations are not factored into the U.S. and Canada parts content percentages on the window sticker. GM's window stickers spell that out.
Like it or not.
I can't drive a stick worth a darn (although if my life depended on it I could make do), so I'm out of the loop, but I was under the impression that today's stick shifts were more "idiot proof" than in days gone by? But, perhaps not, if they're burning up more quickly?
Like most things in vehicles today, weight savings is a high priority. Clutches, bearings (both wheel and drive-line) and gears/shafts back 30 years or so ago were over-engineered and would take tons of abuse. Over-sized bearings would accept lots of abuse, too, with the downside of larger bearings=increased friction (drag), resulting in lower mpg.
Weight is a major concern today, and any place a few ounces can be saved, it will be...
Common sense tells us that a lighter weight material used in manufacturing a transmission shaft will probably not hold up as reliably or as well as a hardened steel shaft of the same size.
That's one reason dual mass flywheels were introduced, in order to isolate the transmission from the higher torque output of newer 4-6 cylinder engines, as the 2-piece flywheel acts as a shock absorber. For that to work as intended, however, the engine needs to be at a higher rpm when engaging the clutch as compared to, say, a 1969 Chevy Nova 6-cylinder 3-speed manual.
What a lot of older manual drivers fail to do is understand that specific different requirement (and to be honest, I have yet to find a new car salesman that even remotely addresses the issue), so they end up quite perturbed when they are told they need a new clutch/pressure plate in something like a Mini Cooper S model with only 5-10K miles on the odometer... And, it isn't covered under warranty, either...
Lots of bad feelings then...
Same with a Porsche Boxster--if you got 80K out of your clutch, you'd be in the top percentile of drivers.
There are posters on both sides of that aisle. And the regulars know who each other are.
Has anyone else observed the same thing?
I don't, so I wouldn't buy a Mexican-built one. Why reward a manufacturer for building out of the country?
And it is relevant to me, to be able to have the choice. Some manufacturer's product is only built in Mexico.
And it is relevant to remember that location of engine and transmission assembly isn't factored into the parts percentage, despite what some have posted elsewhere on Edmunds. ("What? Something non-factual posted by someone on Edmunds?")
He went from a Cavalier to a '12 Cruze? Wow, and nobody thinks Cavaliers lasted. If he had anything in-between, was it a clutch?
My 418K mile comment included my current 68K mile Cobalt. No sign of its clutch going south.
I think the most rational folks here know the truth about that comment.
Far, far more people actually post wrong or false stuff, post opinion as fact, leave enormously relevant information out, or even insult the intelligence of those who choose to buy GM, than the other way around.
The GM-supporters only post to rebut.
Yes, the Cavalier was a manual trans.
Why would a metric of parts content factor in a location of assembly, anyway? Makes no sense to me.
The GM-supporters only post to rebut.
The fact that there are so many people aggravated by GM must say something.
Interesting..I went to read a bit about this as I had not heard of this before. Or at least not heard of design being behind premature wear.
But so far, from what I have read, there still seems to be a common theme.. and that is aggressive driving. In order to experience the premature wear, it requires the driver to have a more open throttle than what would be considered a normal application needed to do simple stop and go maneuvers in traffic. So, unless these dual mass flywheel systems and the clutch itself are being built too light, which is highly probable, then it goes back to driver error. OTOH, when you consider how many vehicles seem to be affected by this, and when you consider that many owners/victims have driven manuals for much of their life and have a basis of comparison with regards to expected clutch life given their past driving habits, my guess is..the technology is not only being built too light (probably to ensure their initial execution goal of suppressing vibration) but it is also answering a question that no one has been asking...especially when you consider that internal gear driven counter-balancers are the norm these days anyway, so vibes are already well controlled. Sure makes for a great return revenue source though for the manufacturers, at the expense of consumer disgruntlement.
I have a feeling this might be also why cars like the Cruze diesel are coming with no manual trans option.
Not sure I follow what you are pointing at...
No doubt, but as everyone knows by middle school, stereotyping and generalizing, and holding onto something forever (particularly something not life-threatening or otherwise evil), are not very good things. 1995 is eighteen years ago; 2003 is ten years ago.
Speaking of holding onto something forever...for all I read here, repeatedly, about Neons, I was behind one..again...today. I bet I see them on the road daily, here in salty NE OH. They're almost always the second-generation though. And those cars are old by now.
But please, point me to the rules and regulations for being an Edmunds member, and where it states "Must like GM"...
I'd love to see it.
Because, my understanding of this forum "Automotive news and Views" is about cars not the people participating in the discussion...
Me neither. Ask some of the posters over on that forum.
I think posts to the otherwise were to lessen the beneficial effect of GM assembling many transmissions and engines in the U.S., nothing more. People only throw out parts percentages over on that forum.
That should keep you busy reading for a while. You may also notice that it occurs across a broad line of makes and models.
Here's a pretty good, brief explanation of dual mass flywheel architecture...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DbvP5EvpUbA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DDbvP5EvpUbA
"Balance"?
A joke of a term that was coined by a certain individual who is probably upset because this thread got renamed and because there isn't enough action in that "Balanced" thread
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f1f7750/1278
The same individual who still thinks car purchases should be based on what happened in 1942... And has only owned vehicles from one automaker. So much for "balance"... "Balance" = B.S. This is not a GM fansite and AFAIC it never has been. Myself, and nobody else on here should have to P-foot around here because it might hurt someones feelings... (for an inanimate object and a company full of arrogant goons who could give 2 bits about them)
Look, I don't know you personally, I don't know anyone on here personally and I have never met anyone on Edmunds in my life. Nor do I expect to. But I mean zero disrespect to anyone here, even those that I don't agree with. I don't mean to come off as a jerk here, but IMO my member participation is being mis-represented here and frankly I don't appreciate it.
So, I'm sorry my opinions of GM are not all fairys and pixie dust. But I can say with full confidence that my posts that you and others percieve as "harsh" always have reasoning behind it ( I invite anyone to find a post that doesn't?). Some people just don't want to comprehend it because, well... it goes against their BIAS. I've worked with GM in the past as a vendor. They are arrogant, unreasonable pricks. I've owned their products and they were somewhere between lackluster to flawed to outright garbage. GM is a leader of nothing in my eyes. And lastly, I don't support the UAW. But my posts and those posts by people I don't agree with are but words on the computer screen. Again, I don't take anything their fans say personally.
But hey, everyone is entitled to their biases. Me, I don't have any. I just don't like GM. And I don't have to. There's a 13th amendment to back me up from that "balanced" document known as the Constitution.
Welcome to America, enjoy your stay.
I won't say anything further about this. It is derailing the topic at hand and IMO a waste of bandwidth. Take care.
It does say something about cars _then_. I don't hear many people posting in Honda about the early Hondas. Like the one my friend had that died when driven in the frequent hard rains in Charleston. That wouldn't restart until the next day. That showed rusting after 1 year in the salty environs there. That jumped over a lane if you accelerated hard due to torque steer.
Some of the folks aren't open minded about how things have changed. And some are working for a vicarious thrill that they've trolled the topic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I can only rack it up to a difference in where we all live now/lived when we grew up. The difference in initial approaches to a topic here is palpable.
I know one former regular poster here who avoids the area completely now because of the total lack of anything resembling balance here.
You will not find a post from me that overtly disses someone's judgment for buying a certain make of car, nor calling a car a POS when I've never sat in or driven one. I have indeed seen that here from the other side. Real open-minded. I've driven tons of rental everythings over the years.
The GM/domestic haters--and there's really nothing else they can be called--can post what they like, but we can continue to rebut when ridiculous, exaggerated, and/or non-factual things are posted as reality, as well.
And, in the markets they were competing, the domestics were pretty crappy, anyway.
Back in high school and college, one of my friends had a 1980 Honda Accord hatchback, and I had a 1980 Malibu coupe. Seriously, if every GM car had been as good as that Malibu, and if every Honda had been the turd that Accord was, Honda would have been driven from our shores ages ago. And, by today's standards, that Malibu wasn't that great of a car.
But, alas, GM and the domestics were inconsistent in those days, so every GM car wasn't as good as that Malibu. Some were better. Many were worse. And when it came to small cars that competed with the Accord, some were much, much worse.
I wonder though if, in the long run, something like a 1980 Chevette might have been a more reliable, durable car, than a 1980 Accord? When new, at least, an Accord was a much nicer, more comfortable car than a Chevette though, so a lot of people probably steered clear of the Chevette based on that fact alone. Who cares how long it lasts, if you hate it?
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
Another dirty little truth about those GM RWD intermediates, is that when rear-ended, they could be a bit Pinto-esque. Now, they wouldn't necessarily blow up at 11 mph like a Pinto would, but they were implicated in a few fiery deaths.
I had three of those A/G bodies, and liked them all. In addition the Malibu, I had an '82 Cutlass Supreme with a 231 V-6, and a 1986 Monte Carlo with a 305. The Cutlass was, sadly, a turd. I bought it used for $800 in 1993 with 61,000 miles, and soon after it ate a transmission. And shockingly, it wasn't the troubleprone THM200...it was the more durable THM350! Around 73,000 miles it lost all oil pressure. One of my friends got it working again, replacing the gear in the pump (thankfully, easy to do on the 3.8) and it sort of worked. But my mechanic said to not put another penny into it, because it was on its way out. In spite of that though, I really liked that car. It was good looking, comfortable, a great highway cruiser, and I loved the color, which was either "Light Jadestone", or the other color GM had that year that was really close. With Rally wheels color keyed to match.
The Monte was bought new by my Mom, and she gave it to me with 179,000 miles on it, in early 1998. Three months later, while delivering pizzas, I got t-boned by a teen in a 1992 or so Tempo, with 192,000 on it, and it was enough to total it.
Dunno if I'd want another one of those cars today though. I think GM did a pretty good job when they downsized their big cars in 1977. But with the 1978 models, I think they just went TOO far. I have a 1976 LeMans, so I can compare the '78+ intermediates to what they replaced. The '78+ cars were more space-efficient, and the biggest improvement was in the back seat of the coupes. The trunks were a bit bigger, mainly because the '73-77's had such sloped-off decklids. But overall, the '78+ models just feel flimsier and tinnier, more fragile. My '76 feels pretty solid, and looking underneath, the fuel tank seems pretty well-protected. The body gaps are huge, the hood flutters a bit at high speeds, and if you slam a door with the window down it sounds horrible. Oh, and just remember that the "Oh Jesus Handle" on the dashboard is just for show...do NOT try to grab it or it will probably tear right off! But, other than that, it's a quality piece! ;-P
Oh, as for my buddy's Accord, even though it was rusting like crazy, it still had a solid, quality feel to it. It cruzed very well at 80 mph, even if it did take a long time to get there. And the sheetmetal actually seemed pretty thick on it. So it definitely had its attributes.
I remember seeing one of those Chevette-based I-Marks in the late 80's. Seemed superior to what we got stuck with, in just about every way. More attractive, nicer interior, and so on. Seems like every time a "World Car" gets introduced, the US gets the short end of the stick!
I really don't know much about Japanese cars from that era. Though I did have a buddy in HS that had an '80 or so Accord 2dr hatch with a manual trans. I actually thought it was nice car for a compact. I don't remember it being problematic. But I do remember doing 100 mph in it when it turned 100k miles. Having another friend with a Pontiac T1000, no way could that have been duplicated in that POC. I have no idea what the price comparison was between the two. The Accord could have been twice as expensive when new for all I know.
The first Japanese car to really get my attention (I grew up D3 all the way) was an '85 or '86 Maxima v6 that a steel mill co-worker of my grandpa bought right after he retired. He let me drive it and I was pretty well blown away by the smoothness of the powertrain etc. Sure, it wasn't the best looking car in the world, but to me, it made my grandpa's 83 Delta 88 feel archaic and slow.
From there it was a friend's mom's '87 Accord LX-i. Wow, I never knew a 4 cylinder could be so powerful and smooth revving. Since I was around a lot of 4cyl domestics it wasn't hard to like what Honda offered at the time. In general I've been impressed with the powertrain and overall refinement of the Asian makes.
That's how I ended up with my first Asian vehicle an '01 Nissan Pathfinder LE. The new at the time 3.5VQ v6 just blew me away. Along with how well it drove and how tight the whole vehicle was. I planned on buying a new Jeep Liberty, but the dealer also sold Nissan. I test drove the Liberty and wasn't overly impressed. Then on a whim I drove the Pathfinder. Wow, it made the 3.7 in the Liberty feel like a garbage disposal and acceleration felt like it was dragging a 2 ton anchor compared to the Nissan. They were just light years apart. Sure the Nissan was more money, but not exceeding so and the reality is it felt like a bargain to get so much more vehicle for only a few more thousand dollars (Nissan had some serious lease incentives at the time).
I've mainly had positive experiences with the Japanese makes, I've had mixed experiences with Fords and Chrysler vehicles, and honestly I've really disliked most GM vehicles I've been around for a variety of reason. Mainly I don't like how they drive and perform (at least the one's I've owned and driven). The fact that they tend to fall apart in my hands doesn't help.
Right on with those points in your posts. The US built cars were downsized but built like large cars shrunk rather than being designed to be light, agile, cheaper.
The early imports were very fuel efficient. After the Jimmy Carter gas crisis, that was appealing even if the car drummed and boomed while driven because it was so thin and cheap. Fuel mileage.
Also, many would never admit their foreign car had a fault. So they were all _perfect_, rationalized in some way in the owner's mind to be that, at least.
A coworker in the 90s or so pointed out his 100+ K mi Corolla had a fan belt and clutch to go out. My cars had power windows, steering, brakes, auto transmission, etc. On his, nothing to break that he couldn't jack up and fix himself.
And as the companies sold more and were forced to build factories here, the cars enlarged to keep up with the young, financially strapped buyers they started with, who were aging. So the Accord got bigger, fatter, taller, and added more "stuff." And they preened their image in their advertising to enhance the ego-related word-of-mouth image that helped them.
That same word-of-mouth image was working against GM, with high-priced UAW and management dumb as a box of rocks. Also the Ralph Nader syndrom of hating GM because they were the 9th largest economic element in the word ahead of many countries in their output of value. The term "military industrical complex" was often bandied about with GM as part.
Add to that an aging dealer network who sold cars rather than preened customers was/is a negative. The dealers for the foreign cars scared the owners that they had to return every 3000 miles for Honda oil or the engine would blow up. The toyota had to have a toyota oil filter and only toyota knew how to take care of their car. These threats on simple-minded owners got the customers back so the cars could be maintained and checked. In fact, the coworker mentioned above found his toyota wagon with the top of the engine removed when he went into the work area. He brought the car in for rear brakes, with the brakes being a known problem. toyota was replacing something wrong in the engine without his knowing. That's an advantage when you get the customer back, fix things that may go wrong in the future, and even if you just get the customer to do preventative maintenance.
Compare to the GM/Ford/Mopar owner of the 90s and 00s. People bring in their Grand Am only when it's knocking and banging. Then are made that the company built it to break down when it didn't see proper, frequent service checks.
BTW, I was ridiculed in another forum here for pointing out my opinion that the dealers being able to get cars in and to get people to do maintenance was a big factor in helping the Hotoy image. The service manager was talking to me at my Buick dealer about that while they were Road Force balancing my tires on my new leSabre. But that concept was not new in my mind: I had heard a Louisville radio talk show with 3 principles/managers of dealerships talking about the difference in the dealer experience.
I think about the Lexus experience here where they advertised in past years about picking up your car and leaving a loaner at your home to take it for regular service. Who knows what else they replace and do that the owner never realizes was wrong--as the dealers and car companies should take care of upcoming problems.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It's not that people thought these cars or the dealers were perfect. They were just better than the competition. And the Big 3 just wouldn't/couldn't make good fuel-efficient small cars for a very long time. There was a niche and it got filled.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT