"that Hyundai is right behind VW and ahead of Ford on the global market."
Regardless of whether I'd buy their product, I have to admire the innovation and drive at Hyunkia. Others should take note. As for GM. you've got a company that was bloated and mismanaged for years, so I think you have to give them 4 or 5 years before you declare them permanently ruined. I think the current management is making some good moves and some of the new product is promising, but given their size and history, turning them around will take a little time. More like doing a U-turn in a Freightliner than a BMW!
Most in-line 6-cylinder BMW engines take 7 quarts with oil/filter changes. Don't know about what the new 4-cylinder turbo models require. My wife's Mini takes 4.5 quarts oil/filter change.
Edit:
Also, my 2009 4-cylinder Tacoma takes 6 quarts with a full oil/filter change.
I'm guessing this is a trend for newer vehicles to use more oil, as an added lubricant and coolant for more lightweight engines being introduced.
As for GM. you've got a company that was bloated and mismanaged for years, so I think you have to give them 4 or 5 years before you declare them permanently ruined.
I think you have that wrong. They were already permanently ruined; it will take 4 or 5 years to see if they are actually looking like a recovered alcoholic.
Please remember that a large percentage of domestic fleet sales go to government and businesses (long term purchases). Not nearly as harmful to future resale value as selling to rental car fleets. Drive through a rental car lot and there will be more Nissan Altima's and Hyundai Sonata's than Chevrolet Impala's. I would think that most imports have 90% or more of their fleet sales going to the rental car fleets. I should know; I spend 20 weeks or more per year in a rental car and have had 4 Altima's for every Impala. The 2008 thru 2012 Altima's maybe my least favorite rental.
Consumer Reports cracks me up. Some recent Toyota models have been recalled 3 or 4 times; however they will be marked with a full red circle. Consumer Reports does not include recalls in their reliablitity surveys.
Latest issue of C&D tests a 2014 Impala LT with a price of $34,795 and a weight of 3700 lbs. A porker. For $34,795 you get a 4-cylinder engine and sluggish acceleration. Seems inappropriate to offer a 4-cylinder in this brand new Impala model. A car like this deserves a standard V6 with V8 optional. What will we see next? A 4-cylinder in a Cadillac?
I question whether it was really an LT 4-cylinder at that sticker price.
I've seen several V6 LT's that sticker for less than that. I've seen LT 4-cylinders that stickered in the 29's and 30-odd. And of course, LS's (still surprisingly nice inside and out) that sticker for $27.5K.
The V6 LTZ I believe starts in the $36's, well-equipped (I wouldn't want a sunroof anyway).
It may be possible, but I've yet seen a single 4-cylinder Impala that had nearly $5K in optional equipment, as that car would have had to have.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I agree that a 2009-2012 Impala would be a hard-to-beat transportation value if you're looking for a large (by today's standards), comfortable, low-maintenance car.
I considered a used Impala, but swung to the other end of the spectrum and bought a new Fiat 500 with manual transmission as an extra car, after concluding that fun-to-drive, fuel economy, a 4year/50,000 mile warranty and park anywhere trumped room and ride for my purpose.
I prefer the Impala's styling to that of the LaCrosse, and would be hard pressed to choose if they were priced the same. I suppose I'd default to the Lacrosse, in that case, because of the better warranty. However, I'd be surprised if you could buy a LaCrosse for the price of an equally equipped Impala, or even for slightly more.
A 2012 Impala with the 3.6 and six-speed--and bench seat for me (!)--might be a good buy.
My motorhead friend has an '08 he bought new, and was thinking he'd get a new '12 but was turned off by the beige interior--in the 2012 only the seats were beige and the rest of the interior was black. He didn't like that.
He still happily has his '08.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
"•Montana, which has an endless number of interesting car facts (more to come), has 1.1 vehicles registered for every person. •Its neighbor to the east, South Dakota has 1.02 vehicles for every person. •Also in big sky country, Wyoming just makes the cut at 1.01 cars for every person
And the flip side, you ask? Which states have skin overwhelmingly outweighing the metal? No surprise here — New York has 0.57 cars for every person. And the nation's capital is even lower — Washington, D.C. has 0.47 cars for every person."
Indeed it is. In the GM line, the '13 Impala was the last vehicle available with a column shift.
I sort-of like the concept...perception of more room without that console up against your leg.
Pure speculation, but a teen driver was recently killed one town over from us. She stopped on a train track and froze, with her father in the passenger seat, and the vehicle was hit by a train. One wonders if the Dad could've reached over and put his foot on the gas without all the big center-console stuff. Of course who knows.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
"I'm not seeing an increase in rear legroom when looking at one next to a '13."
I wouldn't expect any increase in rear seat leg room to be visible, but your conclusion may be correct because according to Edmunds' new car comparison the rear seat leg room for the 2013 and 2014 Malibu is 36.8 inches. No change, per these numbers, yet GM spokespersons (Mark Reuss, maybe?) have said the 2014 has increased rear seat leg room over the 2013.
It's difficult to carve out additional room without a wheel base stretch, otherwise why wouldn't they have maximized it for 2013? My guess, though, is that Chevy managed to increase it a little in some way, but that GM will make sure that the next midsize platform (2017 model?) will have competitive rear seat legroom. The Regal has also been criticized for modest rear seat legroom. GM cars are hardly the only midsizers with this shortcoming, though, since the Audi A4, just to mention one, has also been cited.
Consumer Reports should not take into account recalls in regards to reliability. Recalls are not a failure (necessarily), and are handled pro-actively and voluntarily for the most part.
Not in the same ballpark as a part breakdown while your driving.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"General Motors announced plans to expand its new web-based shopping tool (aka a shopping web site) that allows customers to bypass showrooms when buying new cars. The idea is to use the Web as a giant test platform to see if the automaker can better target people who use the web to buy things. The catch is that the web app, called 'Shop-Click-Drive' will allow users to do almost everything they'd do at a dealer: customize the car, get pricing and financing and even arrange for delivery. But then when you push the button, your "purchase" will be routed to GM's network of 4,300 dealers, so you still have to visit a local dealer to sign on the dotted line. Even with this limitation, the move is still making dealers nervous. GM dealers aren't required to participate in the web-based test, and company officials say they have had some dealers turn it down."
well, of course you need dealers. Unless you want the UPS guy leaving a Chevy on your front porch.
but dealers should like this. for one thing, it can lead to sales to people they might never otherwise see. Plus, they still get the $ for the sale, but expenses are probably lower. No salesman commission? Just easy sales.
Consumer Reports should not take into account recalls in regards to reliability. Recalls are not a failure (necessarily), and are handled pro-actively and voluntarily for the most part.
I guess my original point was, if the article had "Chevrolet", for example, in the title, and dealt only with the Chevrolet, and not a variety of other makes as an earlier article did, it would have been posted here. I'm quite sure of that.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
" My guess, though, is that Chevy managed to increase it a little in some way, but that GM will make sure that the next midsize platform (2017 model?) will have competitive rear seat legroom. "
I doubt the refresh will change the sales numbers.
So far this year Chevrolet Malibu sales have slipped 14 percent to 154,950, putting the sedan in fifth place in the mid-size segment behind the Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima and Ford Fusion.
Recently we discussed whether the 2014 Malibu did indeed have increased rear seat leg room than the 2013. Here's a quote from today's AutoWeek suggesting the answer is yes...
"The 2014 Chevrolet Malibu is unveiled on Belle Isle in Detroit, Friday, May 31, 2013. The Malibu, an also-ran in the midsize car segment, is getting a quick makeover as General Motors tries to address criticism of bland styling and so-so performance. The 2014 version of the car, which goes on sale this fall, gets a new engine in the base model that boosts gas mileage, more back-seat legroom, a restyled front end, an updated interior, and suspension changes that will improve the car's handling, GM said Friday."
It'll be interesting to find out how much the increase is, and how Chevy did it.
As far as I know the 2.5 isn't new, as the press release states; they just added stop-start to the existing engine.
I'm pro-GM, but I looked at the thickness of seats on a 2014 and a 2013 sitting right next to it, and any changes in seat thickness did not make themselves apparent.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
They could have done something that wouldn't be readily visible, such as making the rear seatback a little more upright, for example. I'm sure we'll find out how much leg room was increased and how it was done.
I just looked at two interior shots, and it does look like GM made a subtle change to the back of the front seat.
Here's a 2013:
And here's a 2014:
IIRC, the part of the seatback that holds the map pocket is plastic in the 2013. For 2014, to my eye at least, it appears the seatback is covered in vinyl, and padded, and seems recessed just a bit.
Sometimes, that padding can make all the difference in the world. A car with a hard seatback is going to be uncomfortable if your knees touch it, but if the seatback is padded, your knees could sink into it and it would be more comfortable. Yet that would mean it technically has less legroom. Or, more accurately, knee room, which is a different measurement.
**Edit: I just found this website, which goes into detail about the Malibu's improved rear seat legroom:
This line pretty much sums it up: "The efforts consisted of reshaping the front seatbacks, rescultping the rear seat cushions made of revised cushion material to allow passengers to sit deeper in the seats. All in all, the changes resulted in an increase of 1.25 inches (31.7 mm) in second-row knee room, according to GM.
Not to speak for andre, imidazo, but we had discussed this probably a year ago. That is the published dimension; however, most felt the Sonata was roomier in the back than the '13 Malibu. Just winging it, but it seemed to me that there would be a consistent-in-the-industry way for legroom to be measured, but who knows.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Good (currently free) article in the WSJ today about the conflicts between designers and ergonomic engineers at the automakers over the seats and dashboard displays.
"New safety standards aren't making designers' jobs any easier, requiring thicker window pillars and more structural metal around the cabin. That limits visibility for short drivers and creates a tight squeeze for taller ones.
[High beltlines] produce a claustrophobic effect for short car buyers, like driving from the bottom of a bathtub," says Warren Clarke, an editor for car-shopping website Edmunds.com. "The unfortunate thing is a tall belt line looks very cool."
The upshot is summed up in the tagline - "Boxes work well for most people."
Chrysler 300, Buick La Cross, Ford Taurus have high beltlines and small windows.
Seems like Honda Accord, BMW 3 series sedans and Mercedes C Class sedans have good size windows. How do they pass safety standards with bigger windows than some American brands?
Is there some kind of "visibility" minimum standard of the U.S. Government DOT that calls for minimum window size?
I see the articles says the Sonata has 3.5 inches less legroom? Is that correct ?
I do remember the Sonata's legroom measurement seeming a bit skimpy. However, when I've sat in them at the auto shows, they don't seem all that bad. I could definitely fit in the back of a Sonata more easily than I could the back of a Malibu. That's with the front seat in the position where I would put it, which usually means all the way back, and sometimes reclined a bit.
Considering the wide array of power adjustments these days, I wonder how they measure legroom? In the old days, you just put the seat all the way back to get the maximum measurement, and then took the minimum measurement in back. Consumer Reports used to (and maybe still does?) put the front seat all the way back to get its measurement. But then, to get the back seat measurement, which was actually knee room (they called it fore-aft room), they put the front seat at 40 inches. Or if it didn't go back that far, they put it at its maximum.
But nowadays most seats recline, which is going to affect the back seat measurement. And most power seats allow you to raise/lower the whole seat, just the front, or just the back, and any of those adjustments will affect both front and rear legroom.
I would never say recalls have nothing to do with quality. I would just say they have virtually nothing to do with reliability ratings in my experience.
My experience has been I get them (mostly, not always) handled during a routine oil change or some other service or warranty issue. I've usually been able to combine it with something else so that it's not the sole reason for a dealer visit.
My least reliable car ever which we shall not name here again had little to no recalls that I can recall My most reliable car had a few. Recalls are simply more forgivable than other problems.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Get with the times, andres, since you rely on CR. The Cruze is recommended and has average reliability. I noticed you only quoted last year's info, without mentioning this year's.
Would you avoid the Nissan Juke (other than for styling? LOL). Same reliability as Cruze.
Is anybody else offering a turbo diesel in that size and price class? I'm guessing VW does.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
It's good to see GM is capable of fixing first year jitters in a year with the new Cruze.
However, that won't matter to anyone that got a first year Cruze. The current model being more reliable than past models won't help the owners that purchased last years model.
Unfortunately for GM, that means more people that believe nothing has changed.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I think the VW Jetta 2.0 Diesel would compete with the Cruze.
If I liked the Juke, average reliability would be sufficient for me to consider purchasing it. Heck, I've pretty much decided to buy a new Audi S4 car that gets below average reliability in CR (Although the A4 does OK).
The reasons I went there:
1. Audi has supreme reliability (currently) of all European brands company-wide, and even trumps Infinity/Nissan now (just the S4 is a weak spot).
2. Hopefully being a 4th year model with a 2014 version with limited changes since 2010 will work out those jitters of the past models.
3. Because of #1 I'm betting on #2.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
Regardless of whether I'd buy their product, I have to admire the innovation and drive at Hyunkia. Others should take note. As for GM. you've got a company that was bloated and mismanaged for years, so I think you have to give them 4 or 5 years before you declare them permanently ruined. I think the current management is making some good moves and some of the new product is promising, but given their size and history, turning them around will take a little time. More like doing a U-turn in a Freightliner than a BMW!
Edit:
Also, my 2009 4-cylinder Tacoma takes 6 quarts with a full oil/filter change.
I'm guessing this is a trend for newer vehicles to use more oil, as an added lubricant and coolant for more lightweight engines being introduced.
I think you have that wrong. They were already permanently ruined; it will take 4 or 5 years to see if they are actually looking like a recovered alcoholic.
Consumer Reports cracks me up. Some recent Toyota models have been recalled 3 or 4 times; however they will be marked with a full red circle. Consumer Reports does not include recalls in their reliablitity surveys.
Kevin
But I would agree that a car this size might be pushing it for a NA 4 cyl. Now, if it was the turbo version, then no problem.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
New MB CLA45 AMG has a 4, ~360hp.
I've seen several V6 LT's that sticker for less than that. I've seen LT 4-cylinders that stickered in the 29's and 30-odd. And of course, LS's (still surprisingly nice inside and out) that sticker for $27.5K.
The V6 LTZ I believe starts in the $36's, well-equipped (I wouldn't want a sunroof anyway).
It may be possible, but I've yet seen a single 4-cylinder Impala that had nearly $5K in optional equipment, as that car would have had to have.
I considered a used Impala, but swung to the other end of the spectrum and bought a new Fiat 500 with manual transmission as an extra car, after concluding that fun-to-drive, fuel economy, a 4year/50,000 mile warranty and park anywhere trumped room and ride for my purpose.
My motorhead friend has an '08 he bought new, and was thinking he'd get a new '12 but was turned off by the beige interior--in the 2012 only the seats were beige and the rest of the interior was black. He didn't like that.
He still happily has his '08.
•Its neighbor to the east, South Dakota has 1.02 vehicles for every person.
•Also in big sky country, Wyoming just makes the cut at 1.01 cars for every person
And the flip side, you ask? Which states have skin overwhelmingly outweighing the metal? No surprise here — New York has 0.57 cars for every person. And the nation's capital is even lower — Washington, D.C. has 0.47 cars for every person."
7 Shocking and Esoteric Automotive Data Facts
It's becoming more difficult every day to find a car (or truck) with a bench seat and no console.
I sort-of like the concept...perception of more room without that console up against your leg.
Pure speculation, but a teen driver was recently killed one town over from us. She stopped on a train track and froze, with her father in the passenger seat, and the vehicle was hit by a train. One wonders if the Dad could've reached over and put his foot on the gas without all the big center-console stuff. Of course who knows.
I wouldn't expect any increase in rear seat leg room to be visible, but your conclusion may be correct because according to Edmunds' new car comparison the rear seat leg room for the 2013 and 2014 Malibu is 36.8 inches. No change, per these numbers, yet GM spokespersons (Mark Reuss, maybe?) have said the 2014 has increased rear seat leg room over the 2013.
It's difficult to carve out additional room without a wheel base stretch, otherwise why wouldn't they have maximized it for 2013? My guess, though, is that Chevy managed to increase it a little in some way, but that GM will make sure that the next midsize platform (2017 model?) will have competitive rear seat legroom. The Regal has also been criticized for modest rear seat legroom. GM cars are hardly the only midsizers with this shortcoming, though, since the Audi A4, just to mention one, has also been cited.
Not in the same ballpark as a part breakdown while your driving.
The A4 isn't really all that small anymore, but it's not as big as an Accord either. It kind of fits in-between.
but dealers should like this. for one thing, it can lead to sales to people they might never otherwise see. Plus, they still get the $ for the sale, but expenses are probably lower. No salesman commission? Just easy sales.
and the trade ins still need to go somewhere.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
This was discussed in the Toyota thread.
They should let Subaru engineer their platforms. They always seem to do well (Top Safety Pick +).
Absolutely correct.
Example:
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/10/07/chevy-sonic-recall-fire-risk/
Sorry, up, that was the most recent, don't mean to pick on Chevy...if it makes you feel better that's Korean designed and built.
Any how...1600 recalls for engine fires.
Does that mean 1600 Sonics caught on fire?
No.
potentially faulty fuel tank strap welds
GM reportedly discovered the issue at its assembly plant and does not know of any complaints, injuries or incidents resulting from the issue
GM was proactive, caught the problem early and it had zero effect on buyers.
CR may give that a red dot, too. We'll have to wait and see. The recall will have no effect on those ratings.
I doubt the refresh will change the sales numbers.
So far this year Chevrolet Malibu sales have slipped 14 percent to 154,950, putting the sedan in fifth place in the mid-size segment behind the Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima and Ford Fusion.
It has been built in Michigan since its introduction for the '12 model year. It is recommended by CR.
At the time, it was the only subcompact built in the U.S. It may still be but I don't know for sure so won't comment with certainty.
"The 2014 Chevrolet Malibu is unveiled on Belle Isle in Detroit, Friday, May 31, 2013. The Malibu, an also-ran in the midsize car segment, is getting a quick makeover as General Motors tries to address criticism of bland styling and so-so performance. The 2014 version of the car, which goes on sale this fall, gets a new engine in the base model that boosts gas mileage, more back-seat legroom, a restyled front end, an updated interior, and suspension changes that will improve the car's handling, GM said Friday."
It'll be interesting to find out how much the increase is, and how Chevy did it.
As far as I know the 2.5 isn't new, as the press release states; they just added stop-start to the existing engine.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Somehow, I missed the first recall they talked about.
I think one cannot say flatly that recalls have nothing to do with quality.
They usually require an unscheduled stop at the dealer, much as some minor problem would.
Here's a 2013:
And here's a 2014:
IIRC, the part of the seatback that holds the map pocket is plastic in the 2013. For 2014, to my eye at least, it appears the seatback is covered in vinyl, and padded, and seems recessed just a bit.
Sometimes, that padding can make all the difference in the world. A car with a hard seatback is going to be uncomfortable if your knees touch it, but if the seatback is padded, your knees could sink into it and it would be more comfortable. Yet that would mean it technically has less legroom. Or, more accurately, knee room, which is a different measurement.
**Edit: I just found this website, which goes into detail about the Malibu's improved rear seat legroom:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2013/06/how-does-the-2014-malibus-improved-rear-seat- -legroom-compare-agains-its-rivals/
This line pretty much sums it up: "The efforts consisted of reshaping the front seatbacks, rescultping the rear seat cushions made of revised cushion material to allow passengers to sit deeper in the seats. All in all, the changes resulted in an increase of 1.25 inches (31.7 mm) in second-row knee room, according to GM.
Some here will say that your link is a GM website, but GM has nothing to do with that site.
Again, thanks for posting.
I had rotors on a Cavalier replaced for free at 35K and four rotors replaced for free on my Uplander, at 43K. From the Chevy dealer.
I haven't had a Chevy since those two that have required rotors.
I see the articles says the Sonata has 3.5 inches less legroom? Is that correct ?
Yup. Comparing 13 to 13, 2.2 MORE inches in the Malibu.
Why weren't folks criticizing the Hyundai Sonata for shorter rear legroom. All we heard was about the Malibu?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"New safety standards aren't making designers' jobs any easier, requiring thicker window pillars and more structural metal around the cabin. That limits visibility for short drivers and creates a tight squeeze for taller ones.
[High beltlines] produce a claustrophobic effect for short car buyers, like driving from the bottom of a bathtub," says Warren Clarke, an editor for car-shopping website Edmunds.com. "The unfortunate thing is a tall belt line looks very cool."
The upshot is summed up in the tagline - "Boxes work well for most people."
Better Cars for Short and Tall Drivers
Seems like Honda Accord, BMW 3 series sedans and Mercedes C Class sedans have good size windows. How do they pass safety standards with bigger windows than some American brands?
Is there some kind of "visibility" minimum standard of the U.S. Government DOT that calls for minimum window size?
I do remember the Sonata's legroom measurement seeming a bit skimpy. However, when I've sat in them at the auto shows, they don't seem all that bad. I could definitely fit in the back of a Sonata more easily than I could the back of a Malibu. That's with the front seat in the position where I would put it, which usually means all the way back, and sometimes reclined a bit.
Considering the wide array of power adjustments these days, I wonder how they measure legroom? In the old days, you just put the seat all the way back to get the maximum measurement, and then took the minimum measurement in back. Consumer Reports used to (and maybe still does?) put the front seat all the way back to get its measurement. But then, to get the back seat measurement, which was actually knee room (they called it fore-aft room), they put the front seat at 40 inches. Or if it didn't go back that far, they put it at its maximum.
But nowadays most seats recline, which is going to affect the back seat measurement. And most power seats allow you to raise/lower the whole seat, just the front, or just the back, and any of those adjustments will affect both front and rear legroom.
My experience has been I get them (mostly, not always) handled during a routine oil change or some other service or warranty issue. I've usually been able to combine it with something else so that it's not the sole reason for a dealer visit.
My least reliable car ever which we shall not name here again had little to no recalls that I can recall
Dismal is not how I want my cars described.
Would you avoid the Nissan Juke (other than for styling? LOL). Same reliability as Cruze.
Is anybody else offering a turbo diesel in that size and price class? I'm guessing VW does.
However, that won't matter to anyone that got a first year Cruze. The current model being more reliable than past models won't help the owners that purchased last years model.
Unfortunately for GM, that means more people that believe nothing has changed.
I noticed you didn't address my question about the Juke, or if anybody else was offering a turbo diesel in that size/price class.
If I liked the Juke, average reliability would be sufficient for me to consider purchasing it. Heck, I've pretty much decided to buy a new Audi S4 car that gets below average reliability in CR (Although the A4 does OK).
The reasons I went there:
1. Audi has supreme reliability (currently) of all European brands company-wide, and even trumps Infinity/Nissan now (just the S4 is a weak spot).
2. Hopefully being a 4th year model with a 2014 version with limited changes since 2010 will work out those jitters of the past models.
3. Because of #1 I'm betting on #2.