The Current State of the US Auto Market

uplanderguy

Everybody these days has incentives...even the Japanese makers.

circlew

I guess they are panicking since Malibu sales are down 7.13% YTD over 2012. A factor of a botched launch.

Might as well give 'em away cheap!

uplanderguy

Definitely, the '13 was a botched launch. Not a bad car however.

As a consumer, getting a good price is a bragging point IMHO. I've never bought anything when I've said with pride, "And I paid full price!".

tlong

I sometimes worry about a business that pays its customers to buy the product.

Isn't that just the same as a sale?

Mr_Shiftright

In a way it is, but in a sale usually they are marking down an inflated price. Even most incentives work off a "padded" price. But when an automaker is cutting a car to below "invoice" and then offering $1500 on top of that, one has to wonder --"how low can you go"?

Michaell

I dunno, shifty. Over on the Accord boards, lots of folks are reporting prices paid of $500-1000 below invoice, and Honda supposedly is offering $3000 to dealers to move more units.

How much of that will find its way into customer pockets remains to be seen.

odi14

Whats the big deal about in car NAV? Everyone has a cell phone right? And don't we take it with us everywhere we go? Why pay for something when its already on your phone.

circlew

"Definitely, the '13 was a botched launch. Not a bad car however."

Agreed, just not the best in class, that's all. Th Impala, OTOH, now competes for best-in-class status. No incentives necessary.

stever

They aren't very "rich" but the '14 Impala does have cash and financing incentives. It's hard to find any car that doesn't offer something.

robr2

Whats the big deal about in car NAV? Everyone has a cell phone right? And don't we take it with us everywhere we go? Why pay for something when its already on your phone.

Because in many states if one so much looks at a phone while driving can lead to a ticket unless of course one takes the time to mount it up high where it can be looked at easily.

dieselone

Plus for me, simply using something like google maps navigation doesn't work well in rural areas where cell service is iffy.

I much prefer seeing the map on an 8.4" display vs. my Galaxy S3 phone. Also, I like the integration of the Uconnect Nav system in my Ram. Directions can be on the display in the center stack and/or I can have them on the info display within the gauge cluster. Also voice recognition is only a button on the steering wheel away and works fairly well.

Also the price of Nav is coming down . Considering I already wanted Uconnect and the large info screen, Nav was only a $500 upgrade MSRP. I know some will say $500 is a lot, and it is. But on a $49k truck, I'm not worried about another $500.

That said, I'd probably be equally happy with a good Garmin or Tom Tom mounted on the dash. I just don't like using my phone for Nav.

busiris

"That said, I'd probably be equally happy with a good Garmin or Tom Tom mounted on the dash. I just don't like using my phone for Nav."

A couple of other reasons many prefer built-in NAV systems:

They're always in the car, never forgotten and left at home.

No constant install/deinstall each time one drives somewhere.

In many urban areas, thieves have learned to look for suction cup mounting "rings" on the windshield, giving higher odds there's a portable NAV device stored somewhere in the cabin of the car.

By far, thought, it has to be convenience. Larger screen, and always ready to go when you are...

odi14

Yes well mine, like most I'm sure, give voice directions, and in car nav isn't that good anyways.

uplanderguy

I'll tell you, if I were looking for a new second car or car for my kids, I'd consider the Malibu in a heartbeat (no pun intended) if it could be bought for the price of a Cruze.

That said, I had two of our Chevys into the dealer for tire rotations this morning, and my salesman (amazing, still there 2 1/2 years later), when asked if on 'Black Friday' Malibus could be bought for $17K, cut me off and said, "That includes every possible incentive and nobody qualified". I know he's a salesman talking, but....

I was surprised to see a C7 in their showroom. Other than it was screaming yellow, which I detest, I was pretty smitten. It stickered for $61,405, with a base price of a flat $51,000. It was a seven-speed manual, solid roof (I'd need the glass roof), and 3LT package, which added an astounding (to me) $8,005 to the sticker price! I looked on the door jamb and it was built in July, and I was told by my salesman that they had it in just to show people; it wasn't inventory but they'd take orders from it. They've sold five but due to allocations had to deliver them at their larger location nearer Cleveland.

A small (well, very small) neat touch I hadn't seen in photos, is that there is a thinnish 'fin' on the right side of the console, where there is a grab bar opening for the passenger. Neat I think.

EPA 21 city, 29 highway.

Mr_Shiftright

I use a dash mount and a somewhat large-ish cell phone screen and it works great. I drive all over northern Caifornia, which is quite rural, and only rarely have I lost the map. In such cases, I take a pre-printed set of directions with me, when I'm say in a desert or some such. Plus, you have your cell phone NAV for walking and bicycle directions, updates are free (the NAV never goes obsolete on you), and you can jack it through your stereo for talking directions, Pandora, Stitcher, etc. The NAV will even stop your podcast or music to give you directions and then return you to whatever you were listening to.

I'd say, unless you are on a delivery route and must plug in many addresses per day, that you don't need integrated NAV.

does any auto manufacturer offer a "take it with you" kind of NAV system?

uplanderguy

BTW, the C7 I saw was a 7-speed manual. Left that out of the earlier description.

busiris

Doesn't the Chevy Spark allow you to interface your phone based NAV system into the car's display screen?

I haven't see one, but I sem to remember some sort of ability like that being available.

stever

The Suzuki SX4 was available with a Garmin with a pop-up built in dash mount. The wiring was channeled through the dash so it kept things neat when you took the nav with you somewhere.

The new CLA250 COMAND (sic) screen sort of looks like it should be able to be removed (really looks like an afterthought in this pic - and it squeaks).

uplanderguy

I don't own a Garmin, nor have I ever used GPS. Maps and MapQuest suffice for me.

My daughter in college relies on her GPS to get home and it has taken her way out-of-the-way before. We had given her written directions and she's like 'yeah, yeah'....then calls when she's near Dayton instead of on I-71! LOL

imidazol97

Isn't the best route to take I70 to SR127 and then Summerville Rd. to the 732 at the north edge of campus near the stadium parking? That has the least mileage off interstate. I always thought the I71 route included so much road that was regular 2 lane.

uplanderguy

We typically go down 71 to Lebanon exit (can't remember it now); take Rt. 63 then Rt. 4 for a short bit, then another two-lane into Oxford. Using Mapquest, it's the shortest mileage distance for us, but five minutes longer than going through Dayton area. It's a fair amount of two-lane, but never very crowded. I like that and get tired of the interstate.

We like the town of Lebanon--at least driving through it on Rt. 63. The oldest hotel in Ohio is there, the Golden Lamb. Still looks nice from the street. On my first trip out-of-town with work in 1980, I was in Lebanon and ate dinner there and walked upstairs to see the rooms. A bunch of presidents have been there. My wife wants to at least eat there sometime, but we're always just blowing though.

stever

On foot in the woods or on a bike, getting around is easy. Surround me with sheet metal and getting lost is a given. Lots worse in the dark. Navs are great gizmos even if you do like to slice your own bread, and you can pick one up for as low as $60 now, if you watch the sales.

fintail

I wonder if there's a generation gap for GPS (no offense). For many people, any premium car that isn't a harder edged sportster or a base model must have nav. It's expected in many segments now.

uplanderguy

No offense taken. It's astounding to me how many people can't read a map...and they're typically not my generation.

My daughter...I'll attribute it to her being 19 and female.

stever

When maps are used in the car, it's my wife who's the navigator.

I gave away my half-inch high stack of topo maps years ago. And now you can download them from the USGS, for free.

xrunner2

>>>>>I take a pre-printed set of directions with me>>>>>

Not in a business situation. But, if I am going to somewhere that I have never been before, I simply Google satellite it, commit it to memory (sometimes print it out and take it with) and then go to that place. With Google Satellite even get a STREET VIEW to see and then know what the place looks like. Have never had a problem.

Mr_Shiftright

That's doesn't mean they made the best choice just because they insist on having NAV, especially the day it mysteriously goes blank.

xrunner2

>>>>>>I don't own a Garmin, nor have I ever used GPS. Maps and MapQuest suffice for me. >>>>>

Kind of same here. No Garmin or similar.

The Google satellite view is amazing. Can easily see exactly where you have to go if you have NEVER been there before. Can understand those in business who have to daily go to places they have never been before and use a GPS and/or Garmin type devices. But, I am not in that situation.

tlong

Whats the big deal about in car NAV? Everyone has a cell phone right? And don't we take it with us everywhere we go? Why pay for something when its already on your phone.

While I agree with you in many ways, as somebody who has multiple cars, some with and some without nav, here are a few reasons:

1 - Much bigger screen
2 - Integrated into audio system; auto mutes music when giving directions
3 - Voice input from steering wheel button, such as "find nearest gas station" which works much better while driving
4 - In some states like my asinine one, I believe you can't legally hold the phone or push its buttons while driving; not so with integrated system
5 - No hanging wires all over the place

crkyolfrt

On the Nature of Things on Thur night they covered this very topic. They are suggesting that more dependence on GPS allows (what they believe to be) the hippocampus part of our brain to go to mush, and make thinking and reasoning much more difficult in the future if you've let it go to sleep, so to say..When the hippocampus is being stimulated or tapped into, it fires off 'place' cells, which, when combined with memory helps connect the dots and helps with healthy growth of the hippocampus cells.

It was very interesting...they also featured Inuit on snow blown ice and how they know their way. (hard side of a snow ridge comes from the north, and soft side is always on the south side.)

I find if it is pitch black I have a hard time with my orientation. As a kid I was afraid of the dark, but I think it was something that my Aunt did when I stayed over at her place in a basement back room with stuff all over the place and NO lights! She would not leave a hall light on out where there was some light. I had to feel the walls and trip over stuff to find the washrm in the middle of the night. And the worse part was finding my way back to the bed. I was completely turned around and did not want to walk into the drop down floor area that was wet and had all kinds of gradening crap and hazards, yet everytime I tried to find my bed, i ended up in a maze of big closets. So I had to force myself to go in the direction of this area i dreaded falling into, but eventually knew that THAT was my only option if i was to find the bed again.
I was pretty young..can't remember how old tho..
It was damn scary...and I never let her put me down there again. I think her plan was to have me sleep in so she could...cuz down there, you couldn't see your hand in fr of you on the brightest sunny day outside.

They also did extensive studies to put to bed once and for all which gender has the better natural sense of direction, and....drum roll please...ya, it's the guys.

If you want to watch it, just Google Nature of Things on CBC last Thur night.

fintail

Although integrated nav is no more than 15 years old or so even for the pioneers, for MB anyway, it seems to have a very low failure rate.

The people doing the insisting can afford a later model car with functioning parts, no cares to how it behaves or looks in 20 years. Think of a 20 year old laptop - that's the drawback, these units age poorly.

I like having nav. It's fun to see exactly where you are at any given time. I seldom ask mine for directions, as I know the area well - I just like the view. And when I'm a tourist, it is very handy. Making an all out afternoon drive from northern Germany to northern Switzerland wouldn't be fun with paper maps, nor would my latest trip to LA be fun without it where I was tracking specific residential addresses. But with the phone nav, 99 times out of 100 I arrived smoothly.

And like tlong mentioned, the screen is often larger, no wires to annoy OCD people like me, isn't an invitation for break-ins like a windshield mount or suction cup marks, and no range anxiety.

dieselone

"While I agree with you in many ways, as somebody who has multiple cars, some with and some without nav, here are a few reasons:

1 - Much bigger screen
2 - Integrated into audio system; auto mutes music when giving directions
3 - Voice input from steering wheel button, such as "find nearest gas station" which works much better while driving
4 - In some states like my asinine one, I believe you can't legally hold the phone or push its buttons while driving; not so with integrated system
5 - No hanging wires all over the place "

That's pretty much how I see OEM NAV systems.

I've used them all. But I've learned the hard way that using Nav on my Galaxy S3 is the least reliable as I routinely drive through areas with no to limited service and Nav will simply not work.

My wife uses a Garmin in her car and it works great. The Nav in my Ram works fine too and like you mentioned the integration is nice. Between the Yelp app and Sirius Travel Link it works great. Want a restaurant, gas station or store etc, just hit the VR button and ask. A minute later, the destination is automatically programmed into the Nav system.

That said, I'm not going to argue with someone who claims it's not worth the cost. If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it. That's fine.

tlong

The original list:

1 - Much bigger screen
2 - Integrated into audio system; auto mutes music when giving directions
3 - Voice input from steering wheel button, such as "find nearest gas station" which works much better while driving
4 - In some states like my asinine one, I believe you can't legally hold the phone or push its buttons while driving; not so with integrated system
5 - No hanging wires all over the place

And for completeness, a few more already mentioned plus a couple of new ones:

6 - At least in my car, when you choose a destination business it also has the phone number. Push the phone button and the number is dialed automatically on my phone via bluetooth. As an example, you can place your takeout order to the restaurant while also navigating to it.
7 - Can't steal it so easily (already mentioned)
8 - Doesn't rely on cellular network, so no worries about being out of cell range (also already mentioned)
10 - Car's clock is automatically set by the GPS receiver, so never a need to set the time

stever

TV makes thinking and reasoning much more difficult in the future. I killed mine in '99. :P

And I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but Natives do get lost in the bush and not just inebriated ones. And if you go to, say, the AC store in Bethel, AK, you'll find plenty of GPS units for sale.

crkyolfrt

I've been lost in a new to me 300 acre parcel. It sucks. I eventually found my way out. It was the day before the black flies hatched. I screwed up by trying to take a short cut, and there were so many rock ridges that you had to go around on, it was impoosible to get to the top of the hill..walk back over and look for that loan broken off twig anywhere from 75 to 200 feet away. Moss growing on the north bark of tree stumps only takes ya so far on an overcast day.

stickguy

there are other issues to consider.

- how expensive is it to buy updated maps from the manufacturer (and when do they stop supporting the outdated technology). A new Garmin every 2-3 years is NBD. A new car is!

- if you are using your phone, that will be sucking down data. not everyone has unlimited.

- most built ins don't let you change anything unless parked. My Garmin will let my wife change it whenever needed while I drive.

I was not willing to spend the 3K or so on my Acura to get built in Navi. Of course, it is bundled into the "tech" package, so you have to get a ton of other stuff (most of which I had no need for or interest in). So, we just keep a Garmin in each car, and pull it out when needed. I used it extensively today, because I had to find a couple of different rehab hospitals in different areas of NY and NJ. One of which was so buried in a town I doubt that people who work there can find it without help!

yes, I knew in advance where they were, but having to navigate lots of local and back roads is not that easy from memory when you have never been there.

tlong

- how expensive is it to buy updated maps from the manufacturer (and when do they stop supporting the outdated technology). A new Garmin every 2-3 years is NBD. A new car is!

This is definitely true, and it's a ripoff. Still, the original question was reasons why you *would* want an in-dash GPS. I have an '05 Acura, and I've only bought an update once about 2 years ago. Sot it's not been too bad and there are relatively few changes as most businesses have not changed.

My car does allow changes while driving.

Also funny that some states won't let you use or make phone entries while driving, yet it's perfectly fine to be navigating via a map on your lap.....another example of the state run amuck. I still wonder why we're allowed to have passengers at all, since conversations with them can be distracting and therefore dangerous...

berri

I think the portable NAV units have gotten better and most seem to now have lifetime free updates. But the NAV units can hiccup once in a great while, and they don't provide info like most scenic route, so I also use maps and the Internet. It's a great array of tools combined really.

dieselone

I wouldn't want to fork over $3k for integrated Nav either. Not being able to enter destination s while moving is a PITA. Though I can circumvent that with voice recognition.

Plus in my truck, I wanted the 8.4" Uconnect touch screen anyway, so the $500 charge for Nav wasn't a big deal for me and I do see value in having it.

Like fintail mentioned, having exposed power cords is annoying and takes up power points often needed for other devices. Also integrated Nav is always on so it's ready to go in a pinch.

I used to be in the no nav camp. Now that I have it, I really like it.

tlong

When I bought my Acura in late '04, the nav option was <10% of the cost of the car. Since I keep my vehicles a long time and now have 136K on that car (yes....with no transmission problems, a surprise to some here!), I figure I got my money's worth. Not a lot of money over a full car lifetime. I could agree against the cost if I were trading in every 2-3 years.

fintail

Something else to consider would be on some models, how much of a deduction you'll suffer for lacking nav, come resale time. For example, it is still technically possible to order a MB E-class without nav, although I have never personally seen one from before 2004 lacking it. I have to imagine lacking this would be a massive resale hit. I doubt a dealer would allow a special order for a car lacking it without a massive deposit, too - as it would be hard to sell.

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe if the car is resold when it is relatively new, the lack of NAV might matter, but after a few years, I think an old NAV system is not well-regarded, like any old technology--it's obsolete. After warranty, it's just one more calamity you have to worry about.

When one of those NAV systems goes south, it's not just the NAV function you loose--you lose all the integration that goes with it.

fintail

I don't think the failure rate is too high. MB started offering standard nav on 2000 model year S-class, optional in the E-class that same year, along with the C shortly after. I've heard of very few failures, and never seen one myself. I don't think the risk of breakage is as high as the annoyance of having something that looks archaic and might not be able to be updated. I think the latter is the biggest problem with integrated systems - as they age, new roads are built.

stever

"5-4-3-2-1-Happy new car! Yes, it turns out New Year&#146;s Eve is the best day of the year to buy a car.

Technically the first two days of the new year, says Jessica Caldwell, senior analyst at price-comparison website Edmunds.com. &#147;The last sales day of 2013 for most dealers will be Jan. 2, 2014,&#148; she says. &#147;Any time after Christmas &#150; assuming a dealer hasn&#146;t already met his/her sales target &#150; would be a favorable time to buy a new car.&#148;

The year&#146;s best day to buy a car is approaching (marketwatch.com)

lemko

Remember the old adage, "There's nothing as old as yesterday's high-tech!"

crkyolfrt

Didn't gagrice have trouble with his NAV in the Sequoia, twice or even more often? He finally dumped the thing, after waiting months or half a year or something for parts. I think he got it fixed but got the VW T before it failed again.

I'm not very familiar with built-in systems. But are none of them hard drive anymore? At one time (not that many years ago, but assume they still are) updates were prohibitively expensive, so at least the gouging theme was consistent.

I'd like to have it but do have a big issue with the gouging aspect of it. That said tho, three biggest perks as I see it are screen size, theft deterence and auto sound system intervention when navigating.

stevedebi

"The Google satellite view is amazing. Can easily see exactly where you have to go if you have NEVER been there before. Can understand those in business who have to daily go to places they have never been before and use a GPS and/or Garmin type devices. But, I am not in that situation. "

Those things are fine - until you are in the desert and don't have a cell signal. Here out west, there are times when a dedicated GPS unit (in dash or separate) is the only option. Same for many rural areas.

I use Google maps here in LA all the time - but have a GPS for those other times...

Mr_Shiftright

I'm sure you're right but I have never lost a map on my cellphone while driving all over northern California. I am sure there are dead spots of course but in everyday driving, even in rural farm country or the foothills of the Sierra, I haven't had a problem with Google maps.

scwmcan

I don't know about the other cell phone apps, but I know that the Navigon GPS app for the iPhone doesn't use the cellular package, and works fine in areas without cell reception using the built in GPS receiver in the phone, we use it all the time in areas without cell reception.

fintail

I think Toyota nav systems might be the worst. A friend of mine has a 2012 Prius, and his system is slow, low resolution, crude - would work well as a Playskool "my first GPS" system And it has failed a few times too, one resulting in a warranty claim to have the software straightened out.

Apparently, the systems on other models are similar. Even the one in a Lexus I test drove didn't impress me. The Euros might sometimes have unintuitive interfaces, but their speed and clarity remain good - I've driven MB, BMW (modern style idrive), and Audi with nav, all of them excellent looking.

Regarding the gouging, that will never change. ICE is a profit center, it won't be sold at cost. Sometimes you just gotta pay to play.