If you think about it, a car is a very hostile place for electronics. This is why I firmly believe that in the not-too-distant future we are going to see perfectly good cars junked because the integrated electronics have gone haywire and the diagnostic time to sort it out will exceed the value of a 10 year old used car.
As for vinyl .vs. WAV .vs. mp3, in my case, it isn't so much the difference in sound quality as it is in my hearing ability. To be blunt about it, my hearing isn't what it was 30 years ago. I simply can't hear the highs and lows mp3's cut out in their data compaction, so I don't miss what I can't hear in the first place. Add to that the constant tinnitus I hear ringing in my ears, and mp3's sound just fine to me.
However, if one has really excellent hearing ability, I don't blame them one bit for being highly selective in the format they prefer to have their music stored in/on.
>>>>>>While I do not lament the loss of the ol' 33 1/3 vinyl, G-D save the CD/DVD. !! >>>>>>
My Acura has SACD capability. Never used it or tried to find a recording in that format.
Hope that vinyl discs have improved. Remember buying these before CD's and had to take out the disc from the container and look at it on end to try and discern if it was warped. Even a slight warp would cause the stylus of the cartridge to rise so slightly above the groove on each revolution causing a defect in the sound of the playback.
We have too many gadgets already in our vehicles which are distracting drivers. MP3 quality sound is good enough in cars and suvs.
When I was much younger, I knew a guy who would tape (remember that machine) an LP, then pop it briefly in an oven to warp it and then return it for a refund. Was that you - just kidding!
I recall LPs that were not sealed in plastic wrap at some stores and you could examine them for warping. Unlike CD packages at stores, after the LP era, that are quite difficult to open at home with just your fingers.
This is why I firmly believe that in the not-too-distant future we are going to see perfectly good cars junked because the integrated electronics have gone haywire and the diagnostic time to sort it out will exceed the value of a 10 year old used car.
Yup, I agree..and is what I was alluding to in my post when I mentioned Right to Repair.. And I consider it being aware of the bad that can happen..rather than promoting any form of fear mongering. I really do see all this coming down the pipe..
For a clearer view, or even just a view if you're (not you specifically Shiftright) thinking "nonsense" just read a couple months worth of the forum, A Mechanic's Life Under the Hood.
I don't believe that 1 in a 1000 gives a fig, as long as they like the GM product and get a good deal. Besides, it makes no sense to hate a company that came back from the dead. Americans don't think like that. We like underdogs...a lot.
Just as long as you and I both realize that neither of us has any real data or evidence on this either way.... only opinions!
"No more crappy cars." That was Mary Barra's mantra as head of product development at General Motors. Now as the newly-named CEO of world's largest automaker, experts say she's got what it takes to make it really happen.
"If you look at anything that's been conceived post-bankruptcy, it's been very, very good, just right down the line," said Jake Fisher, head of auto testing at Consumer Reports.
In the past, GM had been known for producing cars under various brands that were little differentiated from one another and which sorely lagged competitors in quality. Well-received concept cars like the Pontiac Aztek went through a product development process that turned them into awkward market flops.
Already, the mantra seems to have taken hold. GM (GM, Fortune 500) has been on a product roll lately, having introduced several award-winning vehicles in the past year.
The Cadillac CTS was recently named Motor Trend Car of the Year and, shortly after that, the Chevrolet Corvette was named Automobile Magazine's Automobile of the Year. And Consumer Reports, arguably the most influential publication among car shoppers called the new Chevrolet Impala the best sedan it had ever tested and the Chevrolet Silverado the best truck.
And the hits could keep rolling in. The CTS and the Corvette are two of the three finalists for North American Car of the Year, an award that will be given out by a jury of top auto journalists at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Meanwhile, the Silverado is a finalist for Truck of the Year.
So, Barra's greatest claim to success as head of product development at GM was that she didn't mess up the work of GM's designers and engineers, said Ed Kim, an analyst with the automotive consulting form of AutoPacific.
"To say that she didn't screw them up is kind of a big deal, though" Kim said.
That's because it was GM's past corporate culture, more than anything, that resulted in bad cars, he said. In the old days, an over-emphasis on cost-cutting spelled the ultimate doom of what could have been good cars.
"She would have to work hard to do as much damage as some of the men in that position have done," said Jennings.
>Bassey did the vocals in the proverbial phone booth. Whatever you like.
I didn't remember the phone booth information. Stever is always coming up with interesting tidbits.
However, I think my day has been ruined, in a good way. I followed the link to Gilmour509's videos on Youtube. I never would have thought watching someone play a carefully washed vinyl on a high quality table and watchiing them show their computer modifying the sound to make it very high quality would be interesting. But it is.
I have "watched" several songs from the past that I loved, Unforgettable, Careless Whispers, etc., and suspect I'll watch several others through the day. I have lots of numbers work to do, so I can play these in background. Now if I can figure out how to lift the soundtrack only from youtube to make some CDs for my car player, I'll be set.
I suspect Gilmour509's enhanced sound is compensating for my over 50 hearing loss in upper range.
Does anyone recognize the software being used to enhance the sound from seeing the picture on the screen?
After watching music being presented on the pop programs XFactor, The Voice, American Idol and ruined by being visually and audiologically enhanced and over done, it's great to watch and listen to "real" music where the words and intonation send the message gently.
And my car has cassette and CD, but no connection for outside input. CD only recognizes certain CD formats.
ah well you've hit on one of the most seductive qualities of vinyl, which is the RITUAL of picking up the album, reading the notes, carefully slipping it out of the cover, cleaning it or blowing on it, ever so carefully placing it on the turntable, setting the arm down gently, and enjoying it.
As opposed to STAB! next song...SKIP SKIP...STAB! SKIP SKIP...scroll, scroll, STAB!
Totally different user interface, and vinyl is so much more satisfying.
Ah, well, tlong, you got me there. I don't have any "data" per se that buyers have long since forgotten the GM bankruptcy, but in a way I do have circumstantial evidence---the fact that GM is making money. So maybe the best we can say is that "enough buyers don't care" or "more buyers don't care than do".
Seems like Shirley was isolated in a booth cutting that record and that was the reason the vocals were so good. But it's been years since I filed away that tidbit so don't quote me.
Now to really have fun, go visit your audiophile friend and after the vinyl is washed and the first song is half over, mention that it sounds a little clipped in the high end. Then sit back and enjoy.
Just as in elections or purchases, most folks talk a good game, but in the end, they usually vote with their pocketbooks in mind moreso than anything else.
You really think mom is going to knock the checkbook out of dad's hand as he's about to buy the new GMC pickup because she recently read in the Wall St. Journal that the government didn't fully recover their stock investment made 4 years ago?
I don't think so. I don't think most Americans could even name the year of the bankruptcy, the amount of money involved, or even whether it was Ford and GM or just GM.
My Cadillac Seville STS had both a CD and cassette player which was awesome as most of my older music is still on cassette! I was disappointed to see no cassette player in my DTS.
I had a friend who passed away some time ago who recorded a lot of awesome Rythym & Blues for me on cassette. I don't even know where I can even find that music in any format nowadays.
"...enhanced sound is compensating for my over 50 hearing loss in upper range"
I don't know what kind of speakers you have. Speakers are like cars, everyone has a different opinion. Wood encased speakers seem to me to have the fullest sound reproduction. But the offset is they are often bass prejudiced. A lot of the newer speakers that are encased in plastic or fiberglass don't seem to have as full of a bass range, but since they are designed for digital they are good at discrete sound. So I feel they have stronger midrange and particularly upper range sound. If you are running wood speakers hook up a second pair of newer speakers. Now all too often mixing extremes results in regression to the mean, or worse - lowest common denominator. But sometimes synergy really occurs. I found that to be the case here. If you can't hook up a second pair of speakers, look for some neutral ones like Bose, AR or KLH. I think that might help your impaired high frequency hearing better enjoy the music.
I've actually found some obscure old stuff on Amazon mp3 downloads. I then convert it to wave. It's not quite the same, but it works and beats not having the tunes. otherwise it's ebay I guess.
Like I said, market share is the same as it was at the end of last year. Let me know when that changes. So far, SOMETHING is limiting GM's sales growth.
That "something" is probably bad feelings from bad past products. IT takes people time to move on from unpleasant experiences. The company didn't decline in a day, and it won't turn around that fast, either.
I'll wager a lot of money the average driver knows nothing of bailouts or economics or who subsidizes what. Most people seem to think the military-industrial sphere is completely independent and self-sustaining, for example.
The American taxpayer also subsidizes South Korea, you know.
GM has enough bad karma to burn up---just adding more bad karma can't possibly make things worse.
My dubious prediction might have come true---that GM sales would get better after 95% of the people who bought a GM car in the 1970s and 80s were dead and could no longer testify. (present company excepted). Since I'd guess most GM buyers from the "dark years" were born in the 1940s and early 50s, I'm probably not too far off in my theory.
The American taxpayer had no say weather or not to subsidize Chrysler and GM, either...but I'll wager the average taxpayer were really p.o.'d that both were bailed out
I'll wager GM's market share stays within 10% of where it is now for years to come.
"The record of the past five years suggests a different lesson: Ford Motor Co. CEO Alan Mulally neither worked abroad nor served as a CFO. And yet he’s the rock star credited with leading the Blue Oval’s effort to save itself, to re-establish the credibility of American manufacturing and to do it with a team culled from the best of Detroit."...without a Government Motors bailout!
Probably not. The only vehicles made there are the Commodore/Caprice/Ute and the Cruze. Everything else is imported. By 2017, there will be a new Cruze which I presume will be made in Korea and the next Commodore/Caprice/Ute will probably be made in North America and share a platform with the next Camaro.
If the premise presented were that people would buy a worse car than a GM car, merely in order to punish GM, that's really a stretch.
Absolutely. Thing is, the competition continues to improve and if all things are equal, then GM is in for trouble. They need to outperform their competition....hasn't happened for a very long time. Profit margin, for example....GM leads not.
This is an oligocracy. When it comes down to it, the taxpayer has no say in where his money goes. The taxpayer has no say in whether or not to give many decades of expensive developmental aid and military protection to some bailout-giving carmaking nations, either. Better boycott them! Oh wait...
10% of market share or 10% higher than current numbers?
>>>>>>When it comes down to it, the taxpayer has no say in where his money goes.>>>>>
Not directly. But, indirectly we do by who we elect to represent us in Congress. And, the presidency.
Look for candidates that are not so willing to bail out companies, such as the cars, and who will only spend as much as tax revenues coming in to the U.S. Treasury.
Look for candidates that are not so willing to bail out companies, such as the cars, and who will only spend as much as tax revenues coming in to the U.S. Treasury.
...and hope they aren't influenced by their party leaders, leadership in Congress and lobbyists.
bad idea, that, IMO. Every country on earth borrows based on projection, not last year's budget, and bailing out vital industries is exactly what a government is there for.
If we all lived laissez-faire, why would we even want a government? We'd just trust the people to make all the right decisions by popular vote.
Ford has better product? They are riding a high on taking no bailout, but read around--they have had quality problems the last two or three years, and not just "My Touch" either.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I guess that would depend on how you qualify "better". Ford has done a good job overall of getting people to pay more for their product. Ford has had some reliability issues, but it hasn't seemed to affect demand yet.
The finalists for the 2014 North American Car/Truck of the Year awards have been announced.
Selected from a shortlist of 12 candidates in each category, the car finalists include the Cadillac CTS, Mazda3 and Chevrolet Corvette Stingray, while the Jeep Cherokee, Chevrolet Silverado and Acura MDX were named truck/utility finalists.
The winners will be announced on January 13 at a press conference prior to the North American International Auto Show press days.
Vehicles are judged by an independent jury of 48 journalists on the basis of factors such as driver satisfaction, handling safety, design, comfort, value and innovation.
This year, General Motors led all manufacturers with six models named to the shortlist, including the Chevrolet Impala, Buick Encore, Chevrolet Silverado, GMC Sierra, Chevrolet Corvette and Cadillac CTS.
Previous winners included the Cadillac ATS and Ram 1500 in 2012, while the Hyundai Elantra and Land Rover Range Rover Evoque took home trophies in 2011.
"No proof non-bailout contributed to Ford's gains. Got any basis for your claim?"
Geez, ever talk to anybody in person about cars? I bet I've heard that in the thousands from everyday Joes who will buy Fords and not GM's when they never did before...for that one reason.
I last heard this just yesterday, when we were discussing Mary Barra at work.
I've also heard a Ford dealer mention that he hears that from customers when they come in to buy.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
No proof non-bailout contributed to Ford's gains. Got any basis for your claim?
I'm sure the no-bailout thing did help Ford to some degree, but that's not the only reason they've been doing well. A bigger reason, I think, is that their products are simply more appealing, and better in general, than what came before.
Even though they've had reliability issues here and there, many of their products are still a big improvement over what came before. For instance, the Fusion and Focus are big leaps over the previous models, at least in my opinion. Same with the Explorer. And the F-150 is pretty much untouchable as the truck sales king, it seems.
Personally, I still worry about those EcoBoost engines, and that was what kept the F-150 off my radar when I bought a new truck last year...just seemed to hi-tech and complex to be reliable in the long run compared to a simpler, pushrod pent-roof V-8. But, apparently they've been okay so far. I'd think that if there were major issues with those engines, it would have tanked their sales and reputation by now.
But, who knows? Those engines are still fairly young. They may still end up acting up more than a simpler, larger engine, as they get older. That could be a problem for people who tend to keep their vehicles a long time, or buy these things as used vehicles down the road.
Then again, everything's getting more complex these days. If it's not the EcoBoost in a Ford, I'm sure it's something else in another brand that will prove to be an achilles heel as these vehicles age.
The only way to actually know if the non-bailout helped Ford would be to do an exit poll at Ford dealers, and even then, you'd have to weed out the confirmation bias of buyers who would never buy GM anyway. Otherwise you're just dealing with anecdotes and tiny data bases, so you can't use that to establish any kind of trending.
The only way I could imagine the non-bailout helping Ford was in the very beginning, when many people shied away from GM because they thought they might go out of business, even after bankruptcy.
Comments
As for vinyl .vs. WAV .vs. mp3, in my case, it isn't so much the difference in sound quality as it is in my hearing ability. To be blunt about it, my hearing isn't what it was 30 years ago. I simply can't hear the highs and lows mp3's cut out in their data compaction, so I don't miss what I can't hear in the first place. Add to that the constant tinnitus I hear ringing in my ears, and mp3's sound just fine to me.
However, if one has really excellent hearing ability, I don't blame them one bit for being highly selective in the format they prefer to have their music stored in/on.
My Acura has SACD capability. Never used it or tried to find a recording in that format.
Hope that vinyl discs have improved. Remember buying these before CD's and had to take out the disc from the container and look at it on end to try and discern if it was warped. Even a slight warp would cause the stylus of the cartridge to rise so slightly above the groove on each revolution causing a defect in the sound of the playback.
We have too many gadgets already in our vehicles which are distracting drivers. MP3 quality sound is good enough in cars and suvs.
It's a lifestyle baby!
Thanks for going easy on me guys..I know ya'll cudda ripped a bit of a strip off me..
Yup, I agree..and is what I was alluding to in my post when I mentioned Right to Repair..
And I consider it being aware of the bad that can happen..rather than promoting any form of fear mongering. I really do see all this coming down the pipe..
For a clearer view, or even just a view if you're (not you specifically Shiftright) thinking "nonsense" just read a couple months worth of the forum, A Mechanic's Life Under the Hood.
Just as long as you and I both realize that neither of us has any real data or evidence on this either way.... only opinions!
"No more crappy cars." That was Mary Barra's mantra as head of product development at General Motors. Now as the newly-named CEO of world's largest automaker, experts say she's got what it takes to make it really happen.
"If you look at anything that's been conceived post-bankruptcy, it's been very, very good, just right down the line," said Jake Fisher, head of auto testing at Consumer Reports.
In the past, GM had been known for producing cars under various brands that were little differentiated from one another and which sorely lagged competitors in quality. Well-received concept cars like the Pontiac Aztek went through a product development process that turned them into awkward market flops.
Already, the mantra seems to have taken hold. GM (GM, Fortune 500) has been on a product roll lately, having introduced several award-winning vehicles in the past year.
The Cadillac CTS was recently named Motor Trend Car of the Year and, shortly after that, the Chevrolet Corvette was named Automobile Magazine's Automobile of the Year. And Consumer Reports, arguably the most influential publication among car shoppers called the new Chevrolet Impala the best sedan it had ever tested and the Chevrolet Silverado the best truck.
And the hits could keep rolling in. The CTS and the Corvette are two of the three finalists for North American Car of the Year, an award that will be given out by a jury of top auto journalists at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Meanwhile, the Silverado is a finalist for Truck of the Year.
So, Barra's greatest claim to success as head of product development at GM was that she didn't mess up the work of GM's designers and engineers, said Ed Kim, an analyst with the automotive consulting form of AutoPacific.
"To say that she didn't screw them up is kind of a big deal, though" Kim said.
That's because it was GM's past corporate culture, more than anything, that resulted in bad cars, he said. In the old days, an over-emphasis on cost-cutting spelled the ultimate doom of what could have been good cars.
"She would have to work hard to do as much damage as some of the men in that position have done," said Jennings.
I didn't remember the phone booth information. Stever is always coming up with interesting tidbits.
However, I think my day has been ruined, in a good way. I followed the link to Gilmour509's videos on Youtube. I never would have thought watching someone play a carefully washed vinyl on a high quality table and watchiing them show their computer modifying the sound to make it very high quality would be interesting. But it is.
I have "watched" several songs from the past that I loved, Unforgettable, Careless Whispers, etc., and suspect I'll watch several others through the day. I have lots of numbers work to do, so I can play these in background. Now if I can figure out how to lift the soundtrack only from youtube to make some CDs for my car player, I'll be set.
I suspect Gilmour509's enhanced sound is compensating for my over 50 hearing loss in upper range.
Does anyone recognize the software being used to enhance the sound from seeing the picture on the screen?
link title
After watching music being presented on the pop programs XFactor, The Voice, American Idol and ruined by being visually and audiologically enhanced and over done, it's great to watch and listen to "real" music where the words and intonation send the message gently.
And my car has cassette and CD, but no connection for outside input. CD only recognizes certain CD formats.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As opposed to STAB! next song...SKIP SKIP...STAB! SKIP SKIP...scroll, scroll, STAB!
Totally different user interface, and vinyl is so much more satisfying.
AFAIC, the jury is still out on weather customers will boycott GM products because of the bankruptcy and noted $10.5B loss on the bailout.
If bailouts = boycotts, Hyunkia would be long gone. Oh yeah, socialism is only bad if it happens here.
Seems like Shirley was isolated in a booth cutting that record and that was the reason the vocals were so good. But it's been years since I filed away that tidbit so don't quote me.
Now to really have fun, go visit your audiophile friend and after the vinyl is washed and the first song is half over, mention that it sounds a little clipped in the high end. Then sit back and enjoy.
I don't think so. I don't think most Americans could even name the year of the bankruptcy, the amount of money involved, or even whether it was Ford and GM or just GM.
I don't know what kind of speakers you have. Speakers are like cars, everyone has a different opinion. Wood encased speakers seem to me to have the fullest sound reproduction. But the offset is they are often bass prejudiced. A lot of the newer speakers that are encased in plastic or fiberglass don't seem to have as full of a bass range, but since they are designed for digital they are good at discrete sound. So I feel they have stronger midrange and particularly upper range sound. If you are running wood speakers hook up a second pair of newer speakers. Now all too often mixing extremes results in regression to the mean, or worse - lowest common denominator. But sometimes synergy really occurs. I found that to be the case here. If you can't hook up a second pair of speakers, look for some neutral ones like Bose, AR or KLH. I think that might help your impaired high frequency hearing better enjoy the music.
Bailouts = boycott only here! Correct!
So what are you driving these days?
I'm driving an Optima SX and own 2 additional non-GM vehicles.
The American taxpayer also subsidizes South Korea, you know.
My dubious prediction might have come true---that GM sales would get better after 95% of the people who bought a GM car in the 1970s and 80s were dead and could no longer testify. (present company excepted). Since I'd guess most GM buyers from the "dark years" were born in the 1940s and early 50s, I'm probably not too far off in my theory.
I'll wager GM's market share stays within 10% of where it is now for years to come.
"The record of the past five years suggests a different lesson: Ford Motor Co. CEO Alan Mulally neither worked abroad nor served as a CFO. And yet he’s the rock star credited with leading the Blue Oval’s effort to save itself, to re-establish the credibility of American manufacturing and to do it with a team culled from the best of Detroit."...without a Government Motors bailout!
GM cites low sales of the Commodore, a new free trade agreement that cuts tariffs on imports and the strong AU dollar.
What positives for GM here could be expected?
Probably not. The only vehicles made there are the Commodore/Caprice/Ute and the Cruze. Everything else is imported. By 2017, there will be a new Cruze which I presume will be made in Korea and the next Commodore/Caprice/Ute will probably be made in North America and share a platform with the next Camaro.
If the premise presented were that people would buy a worse car than a GM car, merely in order to punish GM, that's really a stretch.
Absolutely. Thing is, the competition continues to improve and if all things are equal, then GM is in for trouble. They need to outperform their competition....hasn't happened for a very long time. Profit margin, for example....GM leads not.
10% of market share or 10% higher than current numbers?
Not directly. But, indirectly we do by who we elect to represent us in Congress. And, the presidency.
Look for candidates that are not so willing to bail out companies, such as the cars, and who will only spend as much as tax revenues coming in to the U.S. Treasury.
...and hope they aren't influenced by their party leaders, leadership in Congress and lobbyists.
If we all lived laissez-faire, why would we even want a government? We'd just trust the people to make all the right decisions by popular vote.
One shudders to think....
There is no candidate with the values you mention there.
+/-10% of current numbers.
No proof non-bailout contributed to Ford's gains. Got any basis for your claim?
Selected from a shortlist of 12 candidates in each category, the car finalists include the Cadillac CTS, Mazda3 and Chevrolet Corvette Stingray, while the Jeep Cherokee, Chevrolet Silverado and Acura MDX were named truck/utility finalists.
The winners will be announced on January 13 at a press conference prior to the North American International Auto Show press days.
Vehicles are judged by an independent jury of 48 journalists on the basis of factors such as driver satisfaction, handling safety, design, comfort, value and innovation.
This year, General Motors led all manufacturers with six models named to the shortlist, including the Chevrolet Impala, Buick Encore, Chevrolet Silverado, GMC Sierra, Chevrolet Corvette and Cadillac CTS.
Previous winners included the Cadillac ATS and Ram 1500 in 2012, while the Hyundai Elantra and Land Rover Range Rover Evoque took home trophies in 2011.
Geez, ever talk to anybody in person about cars? I bet I've heard that in the thousands from everyday Joes who will buy Fords and not GM's when they never did before...for that one reason.
I last heard this just yesterday, when we were discussing Mary Barra at work.
I've also heard a Ford dealer mention that he hears that from customers when they come in to buy.
I'm sure the no-bailout thing did help Ford to some degree, but that's not the only reason they've been doing well. A bigger reason, I think, is that their products are simply more appealing, and better in general, than what came before.
Even though they've had reliability issues here and there, many of their products are still a big improvement over what came before. For instance, the Fusion and Focus are big leaps over the previous models, at least in my opinion. Same with the Explorer. And the F-150 is pretty much untouchable as the truck sales king, it seems.
Personally, I still worry about those EcoBoost engines, and that was what kept the F-150 off my radar when I bought a new truck last year...just seemed to hi-tech and complex to be reliable in the long run compared to a simpler, pushrod pent-roof V-8. But, apparently they've been okay so far. I'd think that if there were major issues with those engines, it would have tanked their sales and reputation by now.
But, who knows? Those engines are still fairly young. They may still end up acting up more than a simpler, larger engine, as they get older. That could be a problem for people who tend to keep their vehicles a long time, or buy these things as used vehicles down the road.
Then again, everything's getting more complex these days. If it's not the EcoBoost in a Ford, I'm sure it's something else in another brand that will prove to be an achilles heel as these vehicles age.
The only way I could imagine the non-bailout helping Ford was in the very beginning, when many people shied away from GM because they thought they might go out of business, even after bankruptcy.