Jeep Liberty

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Edmunds' did a First Drive the other day (not to be confused with the "First Look". The link is in the Additional Resources box on the left navigation sidebar.

    Steve
    Host
    Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

  • south40mcsouth40mc Member Posts: 2
    No side air bags or moon roof. They are extras that
    weren't on ours. Regular gas is recommended,the
    owners manual specifically said no 'premium'.
  • dougmckaydougmckay Member Posts: 22
    Over the weekend I saw a white Liberty Limited at a local dealership that had the side air bags (I think it was listed as a $390 option on the window sticker). Haven't seen a Liberty with the moonroof yet.

    I'm planning on getting a fully loaded Liberty Limited this fall. Hopefully all restrictions will be lifted by then and dealers will be more willing to "deal".
  • mbelyeambelyea Member Posts: 1
    Test drove the Liberty a few days back. Felt that the car was a bit "tipsy" when taking it on turns at relatively slow speeds - 45mph or so. It just did not feel like it was solid on the road and leaning over. Any owners out there that can agree/disagree - that is if you dare to admit it!
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'm used to driving a Subaru Forester, which corners very flat for a vehicle like this. So yes, the two Libertys I drove didn't feel as stable through the corners as did our Forester.

    Bob
  • rando2rando2 Member Posts: 8
    If you want an serious off road vehicle without the worry of rolling it take a look at the Grand Vitara XL-7. It is built on a ladder frame and has a two speed transfer case with shift on the fly. With a MSRP of 25K the Touring Model comes withy ABS,Power Moonroof, Full power, Fog Lights, and much more. The smaller edition of this vehicle, The Grand Vitara does well in crash test too. The only question is how does a XL-7 compare to a Jeep in reliability?
    Also, the XL-7 comes with 235 60 16 tires which probably help to make it more stable along with it's long wheelbase, 112" I believe.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    that this "rollover" topic should just come up. This was just posted over in the Subaru forums:

    http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2001/06/20/home_auto/autos_cu/<

    It seems the new Montero, according to CR, is very poor in accident maneuvers, and is rated "unacceptable." Like the Trooper and Samurai, it tipped on two wheels in their tests.

    I wonder how they will view the "tall" Liberty?

    Bob
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    Who cares if an SUV tips when driven like a car?

    Drive it like the SUV it is, and learn to live with what you have. Want a car? Buy a car!!!
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    is emergency accident-avoidance maneuvers, not normal driving&#151;which can happen to anybody; even the best drivers.

    Bob
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    I thought you go slow enough so you are ALWAYS in control of your vehicle.

    I practice this when driving, biking, skiing, etc.

    Always be in control, even to the point of predicting other people's foolishness, and leaving a way out for yourself. That means looking in the rearview mirror and knowing someone is going to come up and cut you off and being prepared to do something about it. Leave a buffer in front and behind you.

    I find it stressful doing the driving for everyone around me, but it works.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    that may work; but we don't live in a perfect world.

    Bob
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    which is why I do it!
  • jvkalrajvkalra Member Posts: 98
    I checked out the Liberty and was disappointed with the limited leg room at the back, your toes are really constrained. Otherwise, this is a great vehicle!
  • tinoman1tinoman1 Member Posts: 42
    has anyone looked at the recent poor rating the new montero got in Cubs roll over tests and wondered if the liberty is next? I hope not
  • tinoman1tinoman1 Member Posts: 42
    thats cu's (consumer reports) not cubs - edmunds spell check changed it on me
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    are under a microscope these days. I'm sure the Liberty is going to be one of the most analyzed SUVs out there. Between the hard-core Jeepers to the safety police, it will be put through the wringer, that's for sure.

    Plus, the fact that it is quite a bit taller than the Cherokee it replaces, will also cause extra scrutiny.

    Bob
  • rfleckrfleck Member Posts: 11
    Just checked the status of my Liberty order and was told it's on indefinite hold because of parts issues with the sunroof. Guess I'll have a decision to make.
  • tonysracingtonysracing Member Posts: 80
    Did you check your order status through your dealer or did you call DaimlerChrysler customer service? Some dealers are still claiming the sunroof is restricted while others are not. For example, jeepwarehouse.com is now saying the sunroof is available while a week ago it wasn't. I had 2 dealers call me last week to tell me that the sunroof is now available, while others in my area (PA) claim it is not. Also, on the Yahoo club, someone from MA posted that their dealer also called to let them know the sunroof is available. Either all of the dealers arent getting updated information or some dealers are getting preferences over others? Im interested to see who told you about the restriction?
  • rfleckrfleck Member Posts: 11
    I called DC customer service at 800-992-1997 after obtaining my vehicle order number. Don't believe the dealerships...they don't have a clue.

    Bob
  • remedyzremedyz Member Posts: 5
    http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/buzz/b062101.htm


    The first interesting fact is that the new Jeep Liberty is moving along well, the memo reports "Due to a huge success in attaining quality targets, they are increasing Liberty production well ahead of schedule. To date, over 26,000 units have been built."


    By the indications we've gotten so far, the Liberty looks like it's going to be a big hit. The biggest indication has been orders -- we've received more than 50,000 so far, and they continue to pour in. Congratulations are in order for the entire Jeep team for their work on this excellent new vehicle.


    ----


    I'm still waiting on mine with no date yet - I selected the sunroof and am willing to wait for it. Rumor has it they have 1 vendor supplying the sunroofs, and another rumor says they may add a 3rd shift to their plant to increase Liberty production. My dealership received 11 Libertys in the last 2 weeks and 4 are sold. I've seen 6 on the roads here, of which only 1 limited model (no sunroof).


    remedy

  • mad0865mad0865 Member Posts: 176
    We ordered our Sport 4x4 the 1st week of June, still no word on VIN, but awaiting this awesome vehicle. We had a Mountaineer that went off on lease (so happy too!). We didn't order the sunroof due to our dealer telling us that all sunroof orders would be delayed by an extra 4 weeks!

    Anyway, we've driven all of the competition, and the proof is in the driving. This vehicle handles so well, it's amazing. Nothing against the Forester, but that vehicle does not have enough room in the drivers seat, rear seat is cramped (6 yr old son kept kicking me during test drive), Escape/Trib problems? forget it, SanteFE? Whining engine and not enough pickup, Blazer had way too much plastic in it for the amount they were charging for it. Like I said, test drive one and you will be hooked.

    MAD
  • rfleckrfleck Member Posts: 11
    remedyz....just curious. Are you the remedy that was over at the jeeps unlimited forum? If so you will find it much more hospitable here.

    bob
  • tinoman1tinoman1 Member Posts: 42
    liberty limited; g-pkg; ABS; SAB; heated seats;

    original order date 5/1/01 (with moonroof)
    dealer re-order date 5/22/01 (without moonroof)
    I called DC cust svc 800# on 6/20/01, gave them my VON# and they told me:

    Vin# assigned 6/15/01
    tentative ship date 6/29/01

    for whats its worth, 2 salesman I was working with left the dealership during my wait. I am now working with a 3rd salesman AND one of the sales managers.

    last week, this sales manager told me he went to a northeast regional meeting of his level associates for DC. one of the big topics was the moonroof availability on the libertys. he told me that moonroofs will NOT be available anytime soon. but we all know that that can change fast.
  • remedyzremedyz Member Posts: 5
    Hey Bob, yep that was me over there at the "Liberty bashing forum". That gold old pretty quick.

    Anyhow, I think I made a big mistake when ordering my Liberty. I accidently ordered the "command" version of the 4x4 instead of the "select". Since i've been waiting 4 weeks and in the 2nd week I re-ordered with the sunroof, I am going to give them a call and see if they can change my order again. I figure I'll probably be waiting another month or so, and i'm not really in THAT big of a rush. Hopefully it will work out.

    remedy
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    You folks should post some of those good and bad comments over in the SantaFe/Liberty/Tribute/Forrester forum.
  • bordsourcebordsource Member Posts: 95
    I was actually slightly disappointed with the Liberty. I was expecting an exceptional vehicle; the Liberty is only good.

    Let's start with the interior, which is to me the best aspect of the vehicle. Headroom was generous to the point of being comical, as at 6'2", I had over 6" of space above my head in the rear seat. I actually found space in the rear to be quite good. I could sit behind myself. While room wasn't generous, it was certainly adequate. The dash was well laid out and nicely detailed in the upscale Limited trim. The power windows were done incorrectly, however; if window switches are going to be on the console, it helps for them to be laid flat, which makes them easier to see and feel for quickly. Cargo space was the biggest letdown. There's not much space back there at all. Finally, the rear headrests are too small to be of much use, and I was disappointed to find adjustable seatbelt anchors curiously absent in the rear.

    The driving experience was nothing special, either. The 3.7 V-6 was tuned for snappy throttle tip-in, a fact that cements my impression of a lack of low-end torque. Actually, there's just a lack of low-end torque period. Whereas the Cherokee had a nice strong feel to it at least at the beginning, the Liberty just seems to amble up to speed with no discernable strength or vigor. Furthermore, the 3.7 turned surprisingly gruff at about 3500 rpm. The ride was the best part. For a truck-like vehicle, the ride was quite nice. Not as nice as what Toyota could've come up with, but nice nonetheless. Handling disappointed. The Grand Cherokee handles better than that car. And there are several cars out there with the same basic IFS/solid axle set up that handle better than the Liberty. Off-roading is important at Jeep, yes, I understand. But I think they went too far. The Liberty leans over and the tires roll onto the sidewalls in normal (not extreme!) driving. It's not unsettling by any means, just disappointing and no fun, not even in a backwards SUV sort of way. The Cherokee and Grand Cherokee handle better.

    The biggest disappointment of all was the price in light of the problems I listed. At $28,000 with leather and stuff, the Liberty is pricey for its class. The Liberty is too small to compete with the cars a class ahead of it, like the Explorer, TrailBlazer, etc. A loaded Liberty is about $5000 more than a comparable CR-V, about $3000 more than a comparable RAV4, a little more than an Escape, more than a Grand Vitara XL-7, more than a whole lot of stuff. Too expensive. Even the Sport is pricey. And on top of the high initial prices, the Liberty gets quite poor gas mileage compared to some things in the class (think RAV4 at near 30 mpg). At $16-25, the Liberty would be vying for the front of the pack. At 19-28, however, it's a middle-pack player. To those of you that want a Liberty- wait. Just wait. If you get one now, you won't even get ABS or a sunroof. Wait until fall when those options, as well as discounts, will be available. Remember that a new Honda CR-V rolls out this fall, supposedly with a more powerful engine. If it comes out with a V-6 (which is unlikely), Jeep is finished. And the Xterra will be restyled like the Frontier and equipped with a 210 hp supercharged V-6. And let's not forget the ultra-versitile and roomy Saturn VUE, which will have a butt-beating 3.0 V-6 (w/5-sp auto!) and probably a low price from the get-go. Jeep will face stiff competition this fall, and I don't know that it can handle it without havig to resort to rebates.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    who need to tow, or go off-road, only the Xterra or Rodeo compare. If you're only looking for an all-weather grocery getter, yes there are better/cheaper choices.

    Bob
  • remedyzremedyz Member Posts: 5
    Found out that I did in fact get the 27G package with the Select-track 4x4. Whew. Cool deal. Still going to be a long wait for the ABS and sunroof. Big deal.

    As far as the middle of the pack post a couple back, I say it is at the top for being a solid off-roader and towing vehicle. I need to tow a boat and jetskis into some bumpy and muddy situations. I wouldn't dare take a CRV there, that thing would either get stuck or break down.

    The XTerra really wouldn't be that bad if it had more luxury options such as leather, the back seats weren't higher than the front (!?!?), and the rear bumper wasn't a huge molded plastic ugly looking thing.

    Overall I feel the Liberty wins due to luxury, styling, handling, and ability to still take it offroad moderately and tow a nice size boat or other. I did feel it handled better than the Cherokee. The Grande - I loved the V8 and the handling was nice, but didn't really like the look much and it was out of my pricerange.

    remedy
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    "The biggest disappointment of all was the price in light of the problems I listed. At $28,000 with leather and stuff, the Liberty is pricey for its class."

    "For people...who need to tow, or go off-road, only the Xterra or Rodeo compare. If you're only looking for an all-weather grocery getter, yes there are better/cheaper choices"

    Yeah, but you two seem to miss the point. To me, the "class" or "choices" start with price. I try to see how much I can get for X amount. So, at let's say a budget of $21,000 which vehicle meets my needs of: towing, room (for people, dogs, gear, skis, bikes,...), power, economy, looks, reliability, etc.

    If I can get a roomier ("bigger") vehicle for the same price, I might just do it. I don't know how you can compartmentalize that way in size classes. I go for how much you get for the money, and what is important to you.

    It all starts with price (what you can afford within your budget), and I'd imagine that applies for most people.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    But if someone needs to tow a fairly large boat, or needs a low range, a $21K CRV (pick a name) won't cut the mustard. Period.

    I've seen a number of $22-23K Libertys out there. I have yet to see one for $28K, although I'm sure that's possible too.

    Bob
  • remedyzremedyz Member Posts: 5
    I noticed some days back in this thread that there was talk about the rodeo being a better vehicle than the Liberty. Let me just assure you that this is not true. The rodeo is a nice ride and was one of the first i looked at. However it has such limited packages for luxury. For a fully loaded ls 4x4 you are looking at $31,500 sticker price. The inside is not nearly as nice as the liberty, although it felt bit more roomy. I also didnt feel that it handled as well on the road, and the ride was not that great. The engine to me felt about the same as the Liberty, maybe slightly weaker. Driven over some mild offroad, i thought it slid around alot and didn't perform as well as it looked like it should. definitely has a wide turning radius, almost worse than my mustang. I initially really liked the look of the Rodeo and thought I could beat them up on price and get a nice ride. After looking into it, I came away thinking it just didn't feel like enough for the money. It didn't feel luxury or solid at all. Felt cheap.

    remedy
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I don't think anybody here (except maybe Mike) has said the Rodeo is better. I and others have said it's more comparable to the Liberty, than say a CRV or Rav4. By that we mean it offers true off-road capability and more towing ability.

    Bob
  • claffeebaclaffeeba Member Posts: 5
    Many of you have been talking price and value for the Liberty. For those who have purchased, any chance a limited will go for less than MSRP, and if so what strategy do you recommend for getting the best price?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    are now available.

    I just went past my local Jeep dealer and he had two Libertys, a Limited F, and a Sport B, both with "factory," not aftermarket, moonroofs on the lot.

    This dealer had perhaps a dozen or so Libertys on his lot, so they're starting to show up in decent numbers now.

    Bob
  • skinnypooskinnypoo Member Posts: 20
    I too am anxious to buy a New Car...Hopefully an SUV...a Jeep Liberty 4x4 Limited.

    So far, out of 3 dealers in NYC i managed to get about 500 under sticker for a Loaded Limited.

    This is after a few headaches...i have decided to wait till Fall and hopefully get a better price.

    HEY!, think it is possible to arrange buyers and order from one dealer together hoping to receive a deal on a "BULK" order?
  • tonysracingtonysracing Member Posts: 80
    I actually tried the "blast fax" method that is on the advice page here on Edmunds. I sent a fax to about 8 dealers stating what I wanted to order and that I wanted to place an order within 72 hours. I got about 6 responses with the best being $758 over invoice. I ordered on Tuesday, June 19. I ordered a Sport in Black with the grey interior. Every option except the tow package, ABS, and skid plates.
  • docralphodocralpho Member Posts: 50
    The Liberty brochure states an overhead console is available (with outside air temp, compass, and other items) but looks like it is only available on the Limited models. Does anyone know if the Sport models have the overhead console?
    There are a number of package options available for the Sport (shown at the Edmunds site) but I could not find what is included with each package. Anyone know? The designation numbers for the Sport are 26B ($2520 MSRP); 27A ($1675);
    27B ($3345); and, 25B ($1670).
    One person asked if the Liberty required super/premium unleaded. The brochure states there are several "knock sensors" that retard the spark under certain conditions and allow use of regular unleaded but performance of premium unleaded.
    In Albuquerque one dealer (Quality on Lomas NE) has about 10 Libertys, mostly Limited ones--there is a single Sport model. I have yet to see moonroofs or ABS options here.
    I have not seen a Liberty costing 28,000; loaded ones here are about 26k; they are without ABS/moonroof, however, so cost could be higher--but--that is MSRP, and subject to dickering.
  • mad0865mad0865 Member Posts: 176
    Tonysracing: We too order a "sport" edition; order the 3.7ltr, auto, select trac, etc., and ABS. Was told by the dealer today that there they are having problems with getting the ABS parts in for all the Liberty ABS orders, so now I have to wait an extra few weeks. Good luck with your Liberty!

    btw: Ordered the Patriot Blue Sport, and can't wait to get it in!

    MAD
  • nickwebbnickwebb Member Posts: 7
    I have about 300 miles on my Liberty Sport and it has been pure pleasure all the way. The cass/cd player with Infinity sound system is pricy but sounds great for a factory system. The steering wheel audio controls are very convenient. I'm still getting used to the grab handle on the A-pillar but other than that I don't have any gripes. A grand cherokee was parked next to me today and the Liberty is several inches taller. You can open the flipper glass from the remote but it's a decent reach to put stuff in thru the window since it sits so high.

    The poster who talked about the 28K price range of this vehicle must be looking at loaded limiteds. The CRV and RAV4 are similarly priced to the Liberty Sport and do not have low range on the tranny. Neither has a powerful engine either.

    Another nice touch with the liberty is the hood with dual shocks to keep it open. No prop rod to mess with.

    Still comfortable and happy happy. Went to the dealer today to get the accessories catalog. Quite a few nice items in there including rubber floor mats which I'm gonna need for the Winter.

    There is no small sport utility out there that matches this for quality, performance, and features at this price point.

    My dealer got mine and one other on the same day and they both sold that day. They now have none in stock and several on order.

    Nick
  • remedyzremedyz Member Posts: 5
    My KJ that is on order:


    Silver Limited Selec-Trac 4x4

    Taupe/Taupe Interior

    Tow Package

    Offroad Package (skid plates/engine cooling/trak-lok differential/tow hooks)

    ABS

    Sunroof

    Engine Block Heater

    Heated Seats

    Premium Sound, etc.


    I have a 10,000 trade-in, plus a $500 deposit on it.


    I am planning on removing the tow hooks temporarily to put the brush guard on the front (as i heard you can't have both!).


    I am adding the spare tire cover, tubular side steps (chrome), tubular brush guard (chrome/gray), sunroof wind visor, roof-rack cross rails, taillight guards (chrome), locking gas cap, cell-phone holder, seat covers (for the backseats), slush mat set)


    The accessories package is running me around $1600.


    The wheels/tires I'm thinking of adding are:

    Centerline Convo Pro 15x10 and Goodyear Wrangler MT/R's.


    For a cool reference site for Liberty accessories, check out: http://shop.store.yahoo.com/wyckoff-chrysler-parts/jeeplibac.html


    remedy

  • bordsourcebordsource Member Posts: 95
    Yes, the Liberty tows a lot. Yes, the Liberty has low range. Yes, the Liberty can actually go off-road without bending a control arm. But still, how many people realistically need any of the above? There are a lot of people that are buying these "cute utes" that are just looking for an all-weather vehicle. For those of you that have the aforemmentioned needs, the Liberty is the best and cheapest choice, bar none, I agree. The Rodeo is trash.

    But for those who don't need the brawn of a true SUV, the Liberty offers no compelling feautre, strength, or quality that would make many choose it over the larger, cheaper, Hyundai Santa Fe, or the more fuel efficient and reliable RAV4 and CR-V. It's too small to really be an Explorer competitior, and it's too much of a guzzler to really compete with the RAV and CR-V. The interesting cars, again, will be the new CR-V and Sautrn VUE. The Liberty, as I said before, is a good vehicle. I am by no means trying to underscore it as a good vehicle. But it's not the BEST, in my book at least. It's not the best in C/Ds, either, as the Escape beat out the Liberty in the 5 BEST TRUCKS competition. The Liberty stands alone in a kind of niche, if you ask me.
  • lovethosesuvslovethosesuvs Member Posts: 95
    Saw a blue Liberty yesterday. I am NOT a blue-car person, but that blue Liberty was STUNNING! It looked AWESOME. Looks like it has a slight metallic sheen to it, yet the blue is quite dark. Really handsome.

    BTW, I have an Escape on order (for many reasons it beat out the Liberty for me) but am still monitoring the Liberty.
  • dougmckaydougmckay Member Posts: 22
    You saw a Liberty with the Patriot Blue Pearl Coat. I agree, it is an awesome color. I'm torn between that color and the Dark Garnet Red Pearl Coat.

    Decisions, decisions...
  • keninplacitaskeninplacitas Member Posts: 120
    The Liberty I'm considering is the full time 4 wheel drive version. As I understand it, there's no difference in gas milage between 4 and 2 wheel drive. Why then would one ever want to drive it in the 2 wheel drive mode. Currently I drive an Audi Quatro. The quatro is all wheel drive for better handling on the road. The Audi A4T is a great car but I need more ground clearance, want to go off-road, want to haul a trailer, and need more space for hauling 'stuff'.

    Note: Please don't suggest one of the cute utes. I've tried em. I'm not impressed.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    To me, and other cute-ute shoppers, is the fact that the Liberty doesn't come standard with ABS and full-time Select Trac 4WD/AWD. That's where the Forester, etc. have a distinct advantage in terms of being a "daily driver."

    However, as I've said before, if you're more concerned about towing or going off road, then the Liberty is the better choice.

    Bob
  • tonysracingtonysracing Member Posts: 80
    Im not sure I see where ABS & full time 4wd not being standard is a disadvantage. When you add them on, the pricing is still very close to the Forester, and you still give customers the choice of not adding on an option they don't want. In my opinion, that is one of the Liberty's strengths. Also, the Liberty is a much better looker IMO.
    I ordered a Sport last week without ABS, I trust myself more than the vehicle, it's almost gotten me into more trouble than it has gotten me out of. I find ABS very unsettling on snow covered roads when stopping, and that's one the reasons I make sure at least one of our vehicles is a 4x4.
  • keninplacitaskeninplacitas Member Posts: 120
    I owned a Forester. What I'm looking for now is a vehicle with a good view of the road (Forester seating height was too low for my taste). I want a strong substantial feel to it (in my opinion, this was lacking in the Forester). And I want an interior that has more of a luxury feel to it (also lacking in the Forester).

    Don't get me wrong, I took the Forester on long interstate drives and up steep, dirt roads in heavy snow and in all situations it handled very well.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Perhaps, but I would never order a vehicle without either ABS or full-time 4WD capability. ABS has saved my tail on more than one occasion. As for Select Trac, I like having a full-time 4WD mode available to me.

    I'm sure most people who are cross-shopping the cute-utes with the Liberty will find the fact that the Liberty only offers those features as options, a minus in their book.

    As to styling, I too like the looks of the Liberty better than that of the Forester, which I own, BTW.

    As to ride height, I actually perfer the Forester over the Liberty. I find the tall ride height on the Liberty a bit unsettling, especially on a windy road. As good as the Liberty is, it can't touch the Forester in terms feeling secure through the twistys. There's much more body lean and feeling of being top-heavy with the Liberty.

    Bob
  • countsmackula1countsmackula1 Member Posts: 61
    I test -drove a second Liberty on Saturday. It's strange, but this one felt kind of tipsy in the turns---not at all like the first one. They're both similar in weight and similarly equipped. In fact, it got to the point where I had less confidence in the sharp turns on a backroad.I believe it's the steering--it's a little too sharp for a truck, no doubt to appease the car people. Anyway, I won't be able to buy one till the end of the calender year anyway, so perhaps a pickup is in order instead. And that no-fold-down- back seats annoys me top no end. That is one feature that shouldn't have been left out.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I think it's because it's so tall. It does feel a bit top-heavy, but then again, I'm used to the way the Forester feels.

    Bob
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