<< I did a bit of comparing last week, and the Liberty has as much space behind the back seat as the RAV, while having a 6 inch advantage in wheelbase. Odd, huh? >>
Not really when you think about it. The Rav4 has a very space efficient transverse (east-west) engine, whereas the Liberty has a north-south engine arrangement. The longer engine bay has to accommodate the longer inline 4 cylinder engine—hence the longer hood and wheelbase.
Drove a green Liberty Limited yesterday. Put it through several types of road and was very impressed. This was my second road test, and I will be getting one when ABS is available. I live in FL and the roads are VERY slick when it rains.
I am amazed at the range of pricing for the Liberty. Seems to range all the way from $400-500 over invoice to $3000-4000 over MSRP.
Ok, well, I get that...I just would have expected a bit more cargo room and area. To be honest, the RAV 4 is still one of my top 3 because of the removability of the rear seats and the Toyota historry of high quality.
rough choice here. The advantage to the Liberty is its HP/Torque over the Xterra. Granted you can get a SC on the Xterra but these are limited and the advantage is not that great for the extra $$$.. I too am now considering the Liberty in my choice. I am going to purchase in the August/September time frame. I constantly watch the advertisements and the Diam/Chry has come out swinging in this battle. The prices of the Liberty are fantastic. Prices Range form 21K up to 23K for the top of the line Limited. On my list are the Ford Escape, Jeep Liberty and the Nissan Xterra.
Thank you Mr. Hotcoffee for the link to the XTerra site. You are right. The XTerra is cute and its new front facade does make it look rugged. Personally though, I like the non-pretentious, understated look of the Liberty. From what I've read and experienced so far, it's bite is stronger than it's bark.
Now, Mr. Bobcatbob, when you say the 'top of the line' Liberty is around $28K, I presume you're referring to a $23K Limited that is as fully loaded as it can get. Your choice of the Rav 4 leads me to assume that you're not really looking for a vehicle that can handle the tough off road stuff anyhow. You may want to read what Consumer Reports has to say about the Cute Utes. Maybe, then, you'll want to change your mind and purchase a Subaru Forester.
Now ... lastly ... about cost. I went to one of the web sites that arranges deals with local distributors. The day after telling them what I wanted, a local dealer called me and stated that he would provide the Liberty of my choice for $300 over invoice. I mentioned that I had heard that he was selling at $1500 over sticker. His response was that web initiated purchases were handled by a totally different department within their sales organization.
It does look like it will be a while before this deal is consummated though because I choose not to own a car without ABS. One experience on the Freeway in my old '94 Saab totally convinced me of the value of ABS. No problem, I'll wait ... August huh?
You're right about that ride. I test drove the Liberty, then a JGC over the same stretch of road. The JGC was A LOT smoother--over one stretch it felt like you were going over a washboard in the Liberty.
I took my present car, a '99 Escort, over that same stretch, and it was smooth as glass.
I can only conclude that the Liberty has a rough suspension indeed.
Yes, I am talking about a fully loaded Liberty. Take the base Limited model that STARTS, nto tops out at 23K, add the G package or a choice of options and it quickly escalates to over 26 approaching 27K.
Now, my mentioning the RAV4 has nothing to do with my requirement for a vehicle. Heck, I haven't even mentioned what I need a vehicle for. I mentioned the RAV 4 because
(a) I want a vehicle that is reliable, well built, and will last a long time. Toyota's are known for this, Jeep is not. Oh sure, there a a few Cherokees and older models with upwards of 220K miles on them, but that seems to be the exception rather than the norm.
and
(b) I did not realize the cargo space of the Liberty was so closely matched to that of the RAV 4, a vehicle that fell on my ranking criteria because of this very factor.
Hey, don't get me wrong, if the Liberty is a great vehicle with no recalls and great reliability, then I am all for buying one. If you go back to the original posts from this board, you'll see that my message has remained the same since day 1, if they build it correctly and launch it correctly, the Liberty will be a vehicle I'll take a long had look at when purchasing later this year.
The more I am undecided about which of the suvs to get the more I dive into the mags and web sites and the more I find out about other vehicles. it has never been this hard to choose between cars and they are close within there respective classes too. the suv market seems to be incredibly close this year they are all fighting for hte same customer. Is the v6 escaper going to be a major contendor in this all ready tough battle? Edmunds says that they are going to be conducting a test of the utes soon and that we should stay tooned...they really need to do it now!!!!!! THe good news is the car mags will probably be focusing on the suvs in this range for the summer. I hope anyway. Its never easy!!
"The link in post #929 calls the Liberty Jeep's 1st entry into the small SUV field which is kind of funny since it's a little bigger than the 18-year-old Cherokee."
Funny. I just bought a 1997 Wrangler. I thought this was Jeep's first small SUV!
Anybody besides myself notice that there's a gap in the Liberty packages? There's a Sport A & B, and a Limited F & G. What happened to the letters in between?
My guess is that there will be future models that will use those letters. Wonder what they'll be?
I'm not sure I would jump to that conclusion. The JGC has used the E/F and G/K option package designation on the Laredo / Limited models for quite a while without it meaning anything. It probably was just the way whoever came up with the designations happened to feel on that day. Just my 2 cts. worth.
those packages could offered in other markets, other than North America??
I very much doubt that they came up with those package names depending on how someone felt that day. I'm sure there is a method to their madness. We just don't know what it is.
XTerra and Liberty competition will help improve both (and the rest of the market).
I find it funny that the XTerra motor is a 3.0 liter, and it will make less in supercharged form than the 3.0 liter Nissan motor from the 300ZX of maybe 10 years ago (222HP). The turbocharged 300ZX motor made I think made 300HP.
My dream would be for Honda or Toyota to make an open air competitor to the Wrangler (or even better, the old Scrambler!).
This would have 2500# towing capability, low rpm grunt motor (diesel?), solid axles, 32 inch tires, removable rear seat, fold down windshield, come in under $22,000.
there are no incentives on the liberty yet.. is this going to be a long wait or will the incentives going to be more lucrative for the consumer once the market gets flooded by all of the suvs that are so close to each other. What do you think is in store for august, september and october??
Checked out both, thought the Liberty had a much better ride, pickup/speed, and handling. Also much more comfortable to drive. We like to do a lot of camping, and it seemed that doing long hauls in the Xterra would just not be comfortable enough. Still on hold with our Liberty order (ABS restriction still in effect), but waiting patiently.
BTW, 23k for a loaded Liberty limited is not realistic. Our Liberty Sport came to 23,500 with the options we ordered (and that included 1,000 knocked off for ordering from this dealer, nice eh?) Some of the options ordered that knocked the Sport price up: Select-Trac 4x4, cd player, fog lamps, tint, ABS, Speed Control, stuff like that.
What have you heard about the ABS shortage. Did you fing out a data when the restriction could or would be lifted (besides the Aug. 13th date)? Thanks.
If you check out Fitzgerald Auto Mall, here in MD at www.fitzmall.com, you'll see they are offering the Liberty Sport for invoice.
Of course this is a no-haggle, internet price, but still amazing considering Don "Come on in and we'll rip you off" White's in Timonium has all of its Liberty's at a few grand over sticker, or as they say "what the market will bear."
Only thing that the dealer was able to tell me was that they really and honestly didn't think that people would order the Liberties with ABS? I thought that was an odd thought, but hey, what do I know. I have ABS on our Ford Taurus and personally wouldn't get a vehicle without it, especially with the Nascar like drivers here in NJ (and the wonderful winters)
Anywho, he basically said that the order is in and inline for ABS (only thing holding up the build date/VIN), and that it would probably be built sometime mid-August.
Personally, I would think people would want ABS. I know a lot of hardcore 4x4er's say that ABS can get in the way of rock hopping, but the Lib is designed to shut ABS off when in 4low, so that's not an issue.
My guess is that Jeep hadn't perfected the ABS for this vehicle when it was ready for release. ... Or ... Maybe they had trouble with their original design. I, though, find it really hard to believe that they hadn't intended it for the Liberty because they didn't believe that people wanted it.
Have nothing to do with design flaws, inability to perfect the system, or an expectation that people didnt want it. It's strictly a parts supply problem. It was already available and many Libertys have been built with ABS. However, as you can expect with a brand new vehicle design come brand new, specific, parts. As soon as the vendors get caught up, which will be soon, all the options will be available. I had the same problem waiting for the sunroof, which is also now available.
<< I know a lot of hardcore 4x4er's say that ABS can get in the way of rock hopping, but the Lib is designed to shut ABS off when in 4low, so that's not an issue. >>
I was not aware of that. If that is in fact true, then there is no reason, IMO, why ABS shouldn't be standard. Does the ABS in the Grand Cherokee work that way too?
I heard on network TV news this morning (I don't remember which station), that there may be a problem with some Libertys jumping out of Park and/or Neutral into Reverse. Anybody hear anything else on this issue?
I just read an AP news release on AOL stating the that the 95-99 Grand Cherokees were being investigated for this problem. Unlike the TV show I saw, there was no mention of the Liberty. However, the Liberty uses the same transmission that these Grand Cherokees use. So, buyer beware...
ABS Lo Range: If my memory serves me correctly, and it seldom does , the correct statement I should have provided was that the Lib does something special while in 4lo and ABS. I'll look for more info and post it later. Anyway, I think I saw it either in their brochures, the jeepunpaved website or Car&Driver TV.
Potential Problems: Scoured the web, haven't been able to find anything regarding problems with the Liberty as of yet. With new vehicles, no matter how much testing they do, problems will arise. It's a matter of how severe the problems are.
ABS Restriction: Hopefully it won't be long. I'll have to agree with Tony on this one, it's just a parts shortage, nothing more. My inlaws live in Toledo, and do marketing research for DC, Ford, GM say that this sort of thing happens quite often, more than people realize. It's probably not the entire ABS part that's restricted, it could really be just one little doo-hickey (pardon my technical ABS lingo) that's holding up the part and causing the restriction. Who knows, but I'll wait in the meantime.
You can get a Liberty sport for about 22K and the limited go for about 25K. Test drove both a Liberty and an Xterra. By far the Liberty has the power advantage. The engine was smooth along with the shifts. Fit and finish were right on par with the Xterra. I went to one of the larger Jeep dealers in my area and they had 7 on the lot with 13 more to arrive in the next week. No shortage here. On road ride was a bit better in the Xterra in my opinion. The salesperson at the Nissan dealer was pushy as all he... the person at the Jeep dealership was not at all pushy. Both salespeople were very knowledgable about their vehicles which was a nice change. The factory the Jeep Liberty is built in is all new state of the art facility. The Liberty will sell quite well and give the Escape/Tribute/Xterra crowd a run for their money. Rav4?? No way, not for me.. A Liberty will totally outperform the RAV4.
In the Liberty brochure it's mentioned that Jeep uses the Just-In-Time approach in manufacturing. Several years ago I attended a JIT workshop. We actually set up a production line using Lego blocks. As the excersize progressed, production efficiency improved dramatically and the need for large inventory dropped significantly. I was impressed. One factor stood out glaringly though, if just a single part at one modular station didn't get there in time, the whole line could grind to a halt. It didn't occur to me at the time that they could just continue on by simply not including that module in the final product. I suspect this explains the ABS and sunroof issues.
The problems were with the 1995-1999 Grand Cherokee transmission. The Grand Cherokee has used a different transmission since 1999. The transmission that is suspected of having problems has not been used in the current Grand Cherokee since 1999 OR the Liberty. There were 48 suspected cases of trannies jumping out of Park into Reverse. So far the Liberty has had no problems. This is how rumors get started. Read the story here:
Ah, sounds like Continental Teves, the supplier, is using a similar ABS for the Liberty that they are using for the MB M-class. The M-class also has a seperate and special ABS algorithm for low range/off-road use. It allows the front wheels to lock a lot more. This shouldn't be used in snow though (especially downhill) since you have no directional control. I know this from experience with low range + the ABS in my vehicle. Was definitely a hair raising experience! The owner's manual does have this warning, but I wanted to try it out anyway ;-)
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Hi all. I'm not really in the market for an SUV (I'm currently driving a Dodge Dakota). But for the future, who knows? Anyway, I finally had a chance to go out and take a look at the new Jeep Liberty. I did not test drive one, I was just looking. One of the local dealers here had 5 or 6 on the lot, all equipped the same way for 23.8K. Sport, 3.7L V6, auto, air, power windows/door locks, cruise, tilt, leather wrap steering wheel, Select Trac, track lock rear end (is that Limited Slip?), maybe a few other items I am forgetting. The Liberty is a nice looking truck. I like the size and stance. IFS does not bother me, my two previous 4WD's have been IFS (Mazda B3000 and Dakota) and those vehicles get me where I want to go on 3 or 3+ rated trails. The cargo area behind the rear seat was not as small as I feared from some previous posts here. Plenty of usable storage for my needs. Rear seating looked adequate also. Overall, a nice looking SUV. I would prefer a 5 speed manual (I guess that will be available later) and Command Trac. My one concern was the size of the tires. My goodness, those 215's looked dinky! But I don't think you could squeeze a 30inch all terrain in those wheel wells. That's a shame, and it's my only real complaint from just looking at the Liberty. Just a few thoughts. I'm kind of keeping my eye on the new Jeep...
I'm planning on waiting until mid-August to place an order for a fully loaded Liberty with ABS. Got a quote from a dealer (via internet) for $100 over invoice, around 27K loaded, 6-8 weeks for delivery. Seems like this is a pretty good deal, any thoughts?
I would build my jeep on Edmunds and compare the invoice price to the invoice quoted by the dealer. Most dealers include advertising costs and etc in the invoice price. The extra cost can be up to $500. Invoice may not mean want it used to.
I agree with chetelm2 that you should compare the dealers' invoice price with Edmunds invoice price as a starting point. Keep in mind also that dealer invoice price usually includes holdback charges and other fees (advertising, etc), some of which are bogus (dealer prep, ADM, ADP, etc.) and some of which are legitimate (destination). Check out carbuyingtips.com for information on such fees and dealer holdback. Good luck!
This review was complete hogwash. It was apparently written by some die-hard cherokee fan that can't stand the thought of a smooth riding SUV with IFS. They gave it 1 and 2 stars for the most ridiculous reasons including power window switch locations, a loose piece of plastic and a stiff transfer case lever. I'm sure the lever will break in some after being used for awhile. And perish the thought that the plastic panel might not have been pushed in completely or something at the factory. There are plenty of more reasonable reviews of the Liberty at Carpoint.com where both reviewers gave it a respectable 8. Car and Driver and Motortrend have also had favorable reviews of this vehicle. I'm still way happy with mine and no parts have fallen off it yet.
the article was hogwash - the he/she approach was sickening as well. we also cannot tell if the vehicles they tested were pre-production etc. all the complaints were minor in nature, certainly not any serious design flaws. as far as the fallen panel goes, If this was truly a problem (I believe the man in the article did something to downgrade the liberty), this can happen to any car no matter what production year it's in. I've heard no other reviews where this has happened.
I went to see the movie A.I. last night and they had a Liberty commercial at the beginning. I must say it was one of the most inane commercials I have seen in a long time. "There is only on Darwin. There is only one future"... You could have tacked ANY product on the end. The advertising company obviously has no idea why people buy SUVs.
They are not getting enough from their agency. I worked for the agency that USED to have the Jeep account. They did the ad with the lump moving below the snow- and you don't know that it's a Jeep until the lump under the snow stops at a stop sign that is barely above the snow, and you see a dim blinker through the powder. THAT is why people buy Jeeps! It goes where other vehicles don't- and has a personality of its own.
I still want one- but GAHD! If the vehicle didn't sell itself- the ads sure wouldn't be doing the job.
And the billboards are the most boring atiseptic ads I've ever seen.
Why do all the major circulation ads show this vehicle shiny and clean.
Only in a car mag did I see the ad with the mud (pretty good ad)-
Oh well.....maybe they know something us actual Jeep fans don't!!
Thanks for the advice, I compared Edmunds invoice with dealer's verbal quote and it is off by about $500. Dealer is going to send me a copy of the invoice today so I can compare. I'm not sure how much more I should negotiate, I'm just happy I don't have to deal with the place where we test drove that added $5k ADM. What a joke! (the best part was when the salesman opened the hood and tried to convince us that the Liberty we were looking at *did* have ABS)
Carbuyingtips.com was an excellent site for more info- thanks for the tip.
Hey Vince, I've got a question for you concerning the Liberty. I know that you are a fairly avid off-roader with you current Ranger (I used to have a Mazda B3000 and currently drive a Dakota). Anyway, my question to you is do you have any concerns about the small tire size of the Liberty? The ones I've looked at in Tucson all had 215's. It looks like you could maybe squeeze 235's on there, but certainly not a 30inch. Because you enjoy off-roading so much, I'd like to know what your opinion is about the small tire sizes. Just wondering. Thanks...
Tim
PS - Anyone else with a thought on this issue? Please feel free...
I am not clear from reading everyone's posting, is ABS not yet available on the Liberty?
I keep getting told by dealers that sunroofs are not being made, that it could be 6 months... And I can't seem to find a dealer with side air bags...they tell me they are rare or something. Anyone else find this?
Also, what are some good online dealers to look at?
This rig is heavy, and needs the V-6 at a minimum to haul its girth around. Engine could use more low-end grunt, or quicker final drive ratio, but there goes the mileage. Again, this rig is heavy. I hope it is good in the crash tests, at least there'd be justification for the porkiness.
Build quality seemed excellent, seemed like it was carved from stone it was so solid. Shockingly great build quality, slight left pull in braking. Tranny shift points seemed appropriate.
Front seats extrememly uncomfortable. Could not adjust to a good position. Cushions too short and narrow, & seating position will straighten the spine no matter which way it is adjusted (a good thing maybe). This is not comfort. A real miss here, sadly. Makes me wonder what the target market is? Nissan Xterra's crowd maybe, but not boomers for sure.
Ride was very well controlled, but I felt like I was almost back in my Ford Ranger 4wd. A lot of bobbing with the road surface, like it is bloodhounding every single dip (like a bobsled). Would not be pleasant on a longer jaunt, but probably tolerable for quick around-town jaunts. I think they missed the mark with the ride, unless of course you want a total "Jeep" ride.
Try using the power seat controls with the door closed. You'll never get your hand down there because you arm will get wedged by the driver door armrest. Jeesh, maybe they should've put the seat controls on the console too.
Window controls on the console: very bad when there's another front seat passenger. Like to wait while the other person fiddles with their switch? You will, and you won't like it. You also won't like having to take your eyes off the road to see the correct switch. C'mon DC, fix it.
Tried lowering the rear windows to see if the 'woofing' was there. And yes it is there in spades. Get rid of this problem DC, the darn windows should be usable at any pricepoint.
All in all, I didn't see it as a sufficiently comfortable vehicle, and I told the salesman that. The build quality seemed quite remarkable, but you're going to have to learn to live with a lot of discomforts and poor design on some things in your ownership years. If they had just sweated the details a bit more, I think I'd buy one, the looks are just great IMHO.
If this vehicle is going to have wide appeal, they've got to straighten out these issues. We were going to order one if we liked it, but changed our minds after driving it. I'm late forties in age. This is where a lot of moolah is, DC.
Again, all this is IMHO. You gotta drive one yourself and make your own judgements. I just with mine could have been different.
I am currently shopping for a new car and test drove the Jeep Liberty 2wd limited edition. I like everything about it, but am not sure if I should get the 2wd vs. 4wd. I am currently living in Houston and it is relatively flat here, but will be looking to move to San Diego next year. Besides the skid plate and a few other features, how important is it to have a 4wd if I'm not taking it offroad a lot? In addition, in trying to get an idea of the resale value on this vehicle, what is the best way to find out... being that it is a new vehicle in the market. Should I just base the numbers on the Cherokee's past performance and history?
With all due respect, I just don't understand why anyone would put up with the incoveniences of an SUV, and only get a 2WD version.
Don't get me wrong I like the Liberty a lot, but if you're not convinced you need 4WD, there are many other better and more logical choices out there—and they're all cars, not SUVs. Cars will get better mileage, handle better and are safer because they must meet tougher government crash regulations. Most station wagons will be just about as capable as an SUV, from a cargo standpoint. I would strongly suggest you look at an AWD Subaru sedan or wagon, not a Liberty.
If it's just because you like the looks of the Liberty, then buy what you like. I can't help you. Good luck with whatever you choose.
After owning a Liberty Limited for 2 weeks and putting 700 miles on it (including a Bay Area to Tahoe roundtrip on Friday), I thought I'd post my impressions so far.
Ride and handling - Not carlike at all, the Liberty has a firm suspension that leaves you with a solid, trucklike impression. A bit bouncy without a load, the ride smooths out considerably once you throw in a couple full grown passengers and gear. Handles well on twisty mountain roads, fair amount of body lean but not bad overall keeping in mind this is a very capable off road vehicle. Never had a problem keeping up with traffic, either uphill or down. City driving is great as it shrugs off potholes and other road imperfection. While not as nimble as the Escape/Trib, it's still fun to maneuver in.
Engine - Reasonably smooth, unobtrusive V-6 that provides decent acceleration around town. You'll have no trouble beating someone off the line at the stoplight or merging into traffic on the freeway. Much less engine noise in cockpit compared to Escape/Tribute. 400+ mile Tahoe trip produced 19.2 MPG, suspect it would have been better but mountains do take a toll on mileage.
Interior - Mostly I love it. Very good stereo w/the Infinity speaker package. Still haven't gotten to like the center located window switches, probably never will, but find it to be a minor annoyance. Seat comfort is quite good, but you should be aware that the Sport has different (cheaper, highback) seats than the limited. It was one of the main reasons I didn't get the sport, I found the seats very uncomfortable. My 5'11" rear seat passenger reports the back seats are fine for 2 hour sessions. At 70 - 75 on the highway, interior is quiet with just a little windnoise intruding. Lowering a rear window at highway speeds creates the worst buffeting noise I've ever heard in any auto. Can be reduced (almost eliminated) by cracking a front window. Doesn't occur until 40 - 45 MPH, so doesn't happen in city driving, about the only time I really lower the rear windows.
Off-road - Managed a few miles on a poorly maintained dirt road through the Sierras on the way to our fishing spot and I can report that the Liberty handles rocks, ruts, dips, mounds, etc., as well as I'd hoped. One of my passengers drives a LR Discovery and commented on how well the Lib's suspension handled everything (and on the rear windows going all the way down!). I'm hoping to find some more challenging terrain next time as this little dirt road run was a blast.
Cargo - On the trip to Tahoe the Lib handled: 1) 3 people from 5'8" to 6'2" 2) 1 small ice chest 3) 3 sets of fishing gear (waders, boots, vests) 4) 3 float tubes 5) 1 pontoon boat (frame on the roof) 6) 6 fly rods in cases No complaints about comfort or space from anyone. Overall, both passengers liked the vehicle.
Tires - I was surprised to see the Lib came equipped with Eagle RS-A's rather than a light duty truck tire like a Wrangler. I'm sure it's a contributing factor in the lack of tire noise and how well it handles, but might be a liability if I ever tackle rougher terrain.
Overall, I'm completely happy with my purchase. I've found the Liberty fun to drive, both on-road and off, a capable hauler for my purposes (camping and fishing), comfortable, and so far trouble free. Considering my previous ride was a Honda Prelude, I'm surprised at how happy I am with the ride, handling, and acceleration of the Lib. Sure, there are a few things that could be improved, but so minor I'm having no trouble living with them.
Everyone seems to like the styling, and Wrangler and Cherokee drivers get all swivel headed when I drive by :-)
Comments
Not really when you think about it. The Rav4 has a very space efficient transverse (east-west) engine, whereas the Liberty has a north-south engine arrangement. The longer engine bay has to accommodate the longer inline 4 cylinder engine—hence the longer hood and wheelbase.
Bob
I am amazed at the range of pricing for the Liberty. Seems to range all the way from $400-500 over invoice to $3000-4000 over MSRP.
I too am now considering the Liberty in my choice. I am going to purchase in the August/September time frame. I constantly watch the advertisements and the Diam/Chry has come out swinging in this battle. The prices of the Liberty are fantastic. Prices Range form 21K up to 23K for the top of the line Limited. On my list are the Ford Escape, Jeep Liberty and the Nissan Xterra.
I wouldn't expect any incentives for quite a while on the Liberty.
And, there are rumors the Escape will be adding a bunch of new options and packages for the 2002 MY to maintain the sales lead over any competitors.
Now, Mr. Bobcatbob, when you say the 'top of the line' Liberty is around $28K, I presume you're referring to a $23K Limited that is as fully loaded as it can get. Your choice of the Rav 4 leads me to assume that you're not really looking for a vehicle that can handle the tough off road stuff anyhow. You may want to read what Consumer Reports has to say about the Cute Utes. Maybe, then, you'll want to change your mind and purchase a Subaru Forester.
Now ... lastly ... about cost. I went to one of the web sites that arranges deals with local distributors. The day after telling them what I wanted, a local dealer called me and stated that he would provide the Liberty of my choice for $300 over invoice. I mentioned that I had heard that he was selling at $1500 over sticker. His response was that web initiated purchases were handled by a totally different department within their sales organization.
It does look like it will be a while before this deal is consummated though because I choose not to own a car without ABS. One experience on the Freeway in my old '94 Saab totally convinced me of the value of ABS. No problem, I'll wait ... August huh?
I took my present car, a '99 Escort, over that same stretch, and it was smooth as glass.
I can only conclude that the Liberty has a rough suspension indeed.
Now, my mentioning the RAV4 has nothing to do with my requirement for a vehicle. Heck, I haven't even mentioned what I need a vehicle for. I mentioned the RAV 4 because
(a) I want a vehicle that is reliable, well built, and will last a long time. Toyota's are known for this, Jeep is not. Oh sure, there a a few Cherokees and older models with upwards of 220K miles on them, but that seems to be the exception rather than the norm.
and
(b) I did not realize the cargo space of the Liberty was so closely matched to that of the RAV 4, a vehicle that fell on my ranking criteria because of this very factor.
Hey, don't get me wrong, if the Liberty is a great vehicle with no recalls and great reliability, then I am all for buying one. If you go back to the original posts from this board, you'll see that my message has remained the same since day 1, if they build it correctly and launch it correctly, the Liberty will be a vehicle I'll take a long had look at when purchasing later this year.
THe good news is the car mags will probably be focusing on the suvs in this range for the summer. I hope anyway.
Its never easy!!
Funny. I just bought a 1997 Wrangler. I thought this was Jeep's first small SUV!
Yippee!!!!
My guess is that there will be future models that will use those letters. Wonder what they'll be?
Bob
I very much doubt that they came up with those package names depending on how someone felt that day. I'm sure there is a method to their madness. We just don't know what it is.
Bob
I find it funny that the XTerra motor is a 3.0 liter, and it will make less in supercharged form than the 3.0 liter Nissan motor from the 300ZX of maybe 10 years ago (222HP). The turbocharged 300ZX motor made I think made 300HP.
My dream would be for Honda or Toyota to make an open air competitor to the Wrangler (or even better, the old Scrambler!).
This would have 2500# towing capability, low rpm grunt motor (diesel?), solid axles, 32 inch tires, removable rear seat, fold down windshield, come in under $22,000.
Bob
BTW, 23k for a loaded Liberty limited is not realistic. Our Liberty Sport came to 23,500 with the options we ordered (and that included 1,000 knocked off for ordering from this dealer, nice eh?) Some of the options ordered that knocked the Sport price up: Select-Trac 4x4, cd player, fog lamps, tint, ABS, Speed Control, stuff like that.
-mad
Of course this is a no-haggle, internet price, but still amazing considering Don "Come on in and we'll rip you off" White's in Timonium has all of its Liberty's at a few grand over sticker, or as they say "what the market will bear."
Only thing that the dealer was able to tell me was that they really and honestly didn't think that people would order the Liberties with ABS? I thought that was an odd thought, but hey, what do I know. I have ABS on our Ford Taurus and personally wouldn't get a vehicle without it, especially with the Nascar like drivers here in NJ (and the wonderful winters)
Anywho, he basically said that the order is in and inline for ABS (only thing holding up the build date/VIN), and that it would probably be built sometime mid-August.
Personally, I would think people would want ABS. I know a lot of hardcore 4x4er's say that ABS can get in the way of rock hopping, but the Lib is designed to shut ABS off when in 4low, so that's not an issue.
-mad
By the way, I have a build date of 8-1-01!
I was not aware of that. If that is in fact true, then there is no reason, IMO, why ABS shouldn't be standard. Does the ABS in the Grand Cherokee work that way too?
Bob
Bob
Bob
Potential Problems: Scoured the web, haven't been able to find anything regarding problems with the Liberty as of yet. With new vehicles, no matter how much testing they do, problems will arise. It's a matter of how severe the problems are.
ABS Restriction: Hopefully it won't be long. I'll have to agree with Tony on this one, it's just a parts shortage, nothing more. My inlaws live in Toledo, and do marketing research for DC, Ford, GM say that this sort of thing happens quite often, more than people realize. It's probably not the entire ABS part that's restricted, it could really be just one little doo-hickey (pardon my technical ABS lingo) that's holding up the part and causing the restriction. Who knows, but I'll wait in the meantime.
-mad
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2001/05/21/021309.html
Hope that helps the explanation.
-mad
Test drove both a Liberty and an Xterra. By far the Liberty has the power advantage. The engine was smooth along with the shifts. Fit and finish were right on par with the Xterra. I went to one of the larger Jeep dealers in my area and they had 7 on the lot with 13 more to arrive in the next week. No shortage here. On road ride was a bit better in the Xterra in my opinion.
The salesperson at the Nissan dealer was pushy as all he... the person at the Jeep dealership was not at all pushy. Both salespeople were very knowledgable about their vehicles which was a nice change. The factory the Jeep Liberty is built in is all new state of the art facility. The Liberty will sell quite well and give the Escape/Tribute/Xterra crowd a run for their money.
Rav4?? No way, not for me.. A Liberty will totally outperform the RAV4.
Bob
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010704/ts/jeep_probe.html
About halfway down they mention about the tranny not being used since 1999.
Drew
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Steve
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I'm planning on waiting until mid-August to place an order for a fully loaded Liberty with ABS. Got a quote from a dealer (via internet) for $100 over invoice, around 27K loaded, 6-8 weeks for delivery. Seems like this is a pretty good deal, any thoughts?
Cyndi
I would build my jeep on Edmunds and compare the invoice price to the invoice quoted by the dealer.
Most dealers include advertising costs and etc in the invoice price. The extra cost can be up to $500. Invoice may not mean want it used to.
Steve
Webb
They are not getting enough from their agency. I worked for the agency that USED to have the Jeep account. They did the ad with the lump moving below the snow- and you don't know that it's a Jeep until the lump under the snow stops at a stop sign that is barely above the snow, and you see a dim blinker through the powder. THAT is why people buy Jeeps! It goes where other vehicles don't- and has a personality of its own.
I still want one- but GAHD! If the vehicle didn't sell itself- the ads sure wouldn't be doing the job.
And the billboards are the most boring atiseptic ads I've ever seen.
Why do all the major circulation ads show this vehicle shiny and clean.
Only in a car mag did I see the ad with the mud (pretty good ad)-
Oh well.....maybe they know something us actual Jeep fans don't!!
Carbuyingtips.com was an excellent site for more info- thanks for the tip.
Tim
PS - Anyone else with a thought on this issue? Please feel free...
I keep getting told by dealers that sunroofs are not being made, that it could be 6 months...
And I can't seem to find a dealer with side air bags...they tell me they are rare or something. Anyone else find this?
Also, what are some good online dealers to look at?
Bob
This rig is heavy, and needs the V-6 at a minimum to haul its girth around. Engine could use more low-end grunt, or quicker final drive ratio, but there goes the mileage. Again, this rig is heavy. I hope it is good in the crash tests, at least there'd be justification for the porkiness.
Build quality seemed excellent, seemed like it was carved from stone it was so solid. Shockingly great build quality, slight left pull in braking. Tranny shift points seemed appropriate.
Front seats extrememly uncomfortable. Could not adjust to a good position. Cushions too short and narrow, & seating position will straighten the spine no matter which way it is adjusted (a good thing maybe). This is not comfort. A real miss here, sadly. Makes me wonder what the target market is? Nissan Xterra's crowd maybe, but not boomers for sure.
Ride was very well controlled, but I felt like I was almost back in my Ford Ranger 4wd. A lot of bobbing with the road surface, like it is bloodhounding every single dip (like a bobsled). Would not be pleasant on a longer jaunt, but probably tolerable for quick around-town jaunts. I think they missed the mark with the ride, unless of course you want a total "Jeep" ride.
Try using the power seat controls with the door closed. You'll never get your hand down there because you arm will get wedged by the driver door armrest. Jeesh, maybe they should've put the seat controls on the console too.
Window controls on the console: very bad when there's another front seat passenger. Like to wait while the other person fiddles with their switch? You will, and you won't like it. You also won't like having to take your eyes off the road to see the correct switch. C'mon DC, fix it.
Tried lowering the rear windows to see if the 'woofing' was there. And yes it is there in spades. Get rid of this problem DC, the darn windows should be usable at any pricepoint.
All in all, I didn't see it as a sufficiently comfortable vehicle, and I told the salesman that. The build quality seemed quite remarkable, but you're going to have to learn to live with a lot of discomforts and poor design on some things in your ownership years. If they had just sweated the details a bit more, I think I'd buy one, the looks are just great IMHO.
If this vehicle is going to have wide appeal, they've got to straighten out these issues. We were going to order one if we liked it, but changed our minds after driving it. I'm late forties in age. This is where a lot of moolah is, DC.
Again, all this is IMHO. You gotta drive one yourself and make your own judgements. I just with mine could have been different.
Don't get me wrong I like the Liberty a lot, but if you're not convinced you need 4WD, there are many other better and more logical choices out there—and they're all cars, not SUVs. Cars will get better mileage, handle better and are safer because they must meet tougher government crash regulations. Most station wagons will be just about as capable as an SUV, from a cargo standpoint. I would strongly suggest you look at an AWD Subaru sedan or wagon, not a Liberty.
If it's just because you like the looks of the Liberty, then buy what you like. I can't help you. Good luck with whatever you choose.
Bob
After owning a Liberty Limited for 2 weeks and putting 700 miles on it (including a Bay Area to Tahoe roundtrip on Friday), I thought I'd post my impressions so far.
Ride and handling - Not carlike at all, the Liberty has a firm suspension that leaves you with a solid, trucklike impression. A bit bouncy without a load, the ride smooths out considerably once you throw in a couple full grown passengers and gear. Handles well on twisty mountain roads, fair amount of body lean but not bad overall keeping in mind this is a very capable off road vehicle. Never had a problem keeping up with traffic, either uphill or down. City driving is great as it shrugs off potholes and other road imperfection. While not as nimble as the Escape/Trib, it's still fun to maneuver in.
Engine - Reasonably smooth, unobtrusive V-6 that provides decent acceleration around town. You'll have no trouble beating someone off the line at the stoplight or merging into traffic on the freeway. Much less engine noise in cockpit compared to Escape/Tribute. 400+ mile Tahoe trip produced 19.2 MPG, suspect it would have been better but mountains do take a toll on mileage.
Interior - Mostly I love it. Very good stereo w/the Infinity speaker package. Still haven't gotten to like the center located window switches, probably never will, but find it to be a minor annoyance. Seat comfort is quite good, but you should be aware that the Sport has different (cheaper, highback) seats than the limited. It was one of the main reasons I didn't get the sport, I found the seats very uncomfortable. My 5'11" rear seat passenger reports the back seats are fine for 2 hour sessions. At 70 - 75 on the highway, interior is quiet with just a little windnoise intruding. Lowering a rear window at highway speeds creates the worst buffeting noise I've ever heard in any auto. Can be reduced (almost eliminated) by cracking a front window. Doesn't occur until 40 - 45 MPH, so doesn't happen in city driving, about the only time I really lower the rear windows.
Off-road - Managed a few miles on a poorly maintained dirt road through the Sierras on the way to our fishing spot and I can report that the Liberty handles rocks, ruts, dips, mounds, etc., as well as I'd hoped. One of my passengers drives a LR Discovery and commented on how well the Lib's suspension handled everything (and on the rear windows going all the way down!). I'm hoping to find some more challenging terrain next time as this little dirt road run was a blast.
Cargo - On the trip to Tahoe the Lib handled:
1) 3 people from 5'8" to 6'2"
2) 1 small ice chest
3) 3 sets of fishing gear (waders, boots, vests)
4) 3 float tubes
5) 1 pontoon boat (frame on the roof)
6) 6 fly rods in cases
No complaints about comfort or space from anyone. Overall, both passengers liked the vehicle.
Tires - I was surprised to see the Lib came equipped with Eagle RS-A's rather than a light duty truck tire like a Wrangler. I'm sure it's a contributing factor in the lack of tire noise and how well it handles, but might be a liability if I ever tackle rougher terrain.
Overall, I'm completely happy with my purchase. I've found the Liberty fun to drive, both on-road and off, a capable hauler for my purposes (camping and fishing), comfortable, and so far trouble free. Considering my previous ride was a Honda Prelude, I'm surprised at how happy I am with the ride, handling, and acceleration of the Lib. Sure, there are a few things that could be improved, but so minor I'm having no trouble living with them.
Everyone seems to like the styling, and Wrangler and Cherokee drivers get all swivel headed when I drive by :-)