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Comments
Not really when you think about it. The Rav4 has a very space efficient transverse (east-west) engine, whereas the Liberty has a north-south engine arrangement. The longer engine bay has to accommodate the longer inline 4 cylinder engine—hence the longer hood and wheelbase.
Bob
I am amazed at the range of pricing for the Liberty. Seems to range all the way from $400-500 over invoice to $3000-4000 over MSRP.
I too am now considering the Liberty in my choice. I am going to purchase in the August/September time frame. I constantly watch the advertisements and the Diam/Chry has come out swinging in this battle. The prices of the Liberty are fantastic. Prices Range form 21K up to 23K for the top of the line Limited. On my list are the Ford Escape, Jeep Liberty and the Nissan Xterra.
I wouldn't expect any incentives for quite a while on the Liberty.
And, there are rumors the Escape will be adding a bunch of new options and packages for the 2002 MY to maintain the sales lead over any competitors.
Now, Mr. Bobcatbob, when you say the 'top of the line' Liberty is around $28K, I presume you're referring to a $23K Limited that is as fully loaded as it can get. Your choice of the Rav 4 leads me to assume that you're not really looking for a vehicle that can handle the tough off road stuff anyhow. You may want to read what Consumer Reports has to say about the Cute Utes. Maybe, then, you'll want to change your mind and purchase a Subaru Forester.
Now ... lastly ... about cost. I went to one of the web sites that arranges deals with local distributors. The day after telling them what I wanted, a local dealer called me and stated that he would provide the Liberty of my choice for $300 over invoice. I mentioned that I had heard that he was selling at $1500 over sticker. His response was that web initiated purchases were handled by a totally different department within their sales organization.
It does look like it will be a while before this deal is consummated though because I choose not to own a car without ABS. One experience on the Freeway in my old '94 Saab totally convinced me of the value of ABS. No problem, I'll wait ... August huh?
I took my present car, a '99 Escort, over that same stretch, and it was smooth as glass.
I can only conclude that the Liberty has a rough suspension indeed.
Now, my mentioning the RAV4 has nothing to do with my requirement for a vehicle. Heck, I haven't even mentioned what I need a vehicle for. I mentioned the RAV 4 because
(a) I want a vehicle that is reliable, well built, and will last a long time. Toyota's are known for this, Jeep is not. Oh sure, there a a few Cherokees and older models with upwards of 220K miles on them, but that seems to be the exception rather than the norm.
and
(b) I did not realize the cargo space of the Liberty was so closely matched to that of the RAV 4, a vehicle that fell on my ranking criteria because of this very factor.
Hey, don't get me wrong, if the Liberty is a great vehicle with no recalls and great reliability, then I am all for buying one. If you go back to the original posts from this board, you'll see that my message has remained the same since day 1, if they build it correctly and launch it correctly, the Liberty will be a vehicle I'll take a long had look at when purchasing later this year.
THe good news is the car mags will probably be focusing on the suvs in this range for the summer. I hope anyway.
Its never easy!!
Funny. I just bought a 1997 Wrangler. I thought this was Jeep's first small SUV!
Yippee!!!!
My guess is that there will be future models that will use those letters. Wonder what they'll be?
Bob
I very much doubt that they came up with those package names depending on how someone felt that day. I'm sure there is a method to their madness. We just don't know what it is.
Bob
I find it funny that the XTerra motor is a 3.0 liter, and it will make less in supercharged form than the 3.0 liter Nissan motor from the 300ZX of maybe 10 years ago (222HP). The turbocharged 300ZX motor made I think made 300HP.
My dream would be for Honda or Toyota to make an open air competitor to the Wrangler (or even better, the old Scrambler!).
This would have 2500# towing capability, low rpm grunt motor (diesel?), solid axles, 32 inch tires, removable rear seat, fold down windshield, come in under $22,000.
Bob
BTW, 23k for a loaded Liberty limited is not realistic. Our Liberty Sport came to 23,500 with the options we ordered (and that included 1,000 knocked off for ordering from this dealer, nice eh?) Some of the options ordered that knocked the Sport price up: Select-Trac 4x4, cd player, fog lamps, tint, ABS, Speed Control, stuff like that.
-mad
Of course this is a no-haggle, internet price, but still amazing considering Don "Come on in and we'll rip you off" White's in Timonium has all of its Liberty's at a few grand over sticker, or as they say "what the market will bear."
Only thing that the dealer was able to tell me was that they really and honestly didn't think that people would order the Liberties with ABS? I thought that was an odd thought, but hey, what do I know. I have ABS on our Ford Taurus and personally wouldn't get a vehicle without it, especially with the Nascar like drivers here in NJ (and the wonderful winters)
Anywho, he basically said that the order is in and inline for ABS (only thing holding up the build date/VIN), and that it would probably be built sometime mid-August.
Personally, I would think people would want ABS. I know a lot of hardcore 4x4er's say that ABS can get in the way of rock hopping, but the Lib is designed to shut ABS off when in 4low, so that's not an issue.
-mad
By the way, I have a build date of 8-1-01!
I was not aware of that. If that is in fact true, then there is no reason, IMO, why ABS shouldn't be standard. Does the ABS in the Grand Cherokee work that way too?
Bob
Bob
Bob
Potential Problems: Scoured the web, haven't been able to find anything regarding problems with the Liberty as of yet. With new vehicles, no matter how much testing they do, problems will arise. It's a matter of how severe the problems are.
ABS Restriction: Hopefully it won't be long. I'll have to agree with Tony on this one, it's just a parts shortage, nothing more. My inlaws live in Toledo, and do marketing research for DC, Ford, GM say that this sort of thing happens quite often, more than people realize. It's probably not the entire ABS part that's restricted, it could really be just one little doo-hickey (pardon my technical ABS lingo) that's holding up the part and causing the restriction. Who knows, but I'll wait in the meantime.
-mad
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2001/05/21/021309.html
Hope that helps the explanation.
-mad
Test drove both a Liberty and an Xterra. By far the Liberty has the power advantage. The engine was smooth along with the shifts. Fit and finish were right on par with the Xterra. I went to one of the larger Jeep dealers in my area and they had 7 on the lot with 13 more to arrive in the next week. No shortage here. On road ride was a bit better in the Xterra in my opinion.
The salesperson at the Nissan dealer was pushy as all he... the person at the Jeep dealership was not at all pushy. Both salespeople were very knowledgable about their vehicles which was a nice change. The factory the Jeep Liberty is built in is all new state of the art facility. The Liberty will sell quite well and give the Escape/Tribute/Xterra crowd a run for their money.
Rav4?? No way, not for me.. A Liberty will totally outperform the RAV4.
Bob
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010704/ts/jeep_probe.html
About halfway down they mention about the tranny not being used since 1999.
Drew
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Steve
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I'm planning on waiting until mid-August to place an order for a fully loaded Liberty with ABS. Got a quote from a dealer (via internet) for $100 over invoice, around 27K loaded, 6-8 weeks for delivery. Seems like this is a pretty good deal, any thoughts?
Cyndi
I would build my jeep on Edmunds and compare the invoice price to the invoice quoted by the dealer.
Most dealers include advertising costs and etc in the invoice price. The extra cost can be up to $500. Invoice may not mean want it used to.
Steve
Webb
They are not getting enough from their agency. I worked for the agency that USED to have the Jeep account. They did the ad with the lump moving below the snow- and you don't know that it's a Jeep until the lump under the snow stops at a stop sign that is barely above the snow, and you see a dim blinker through the powder. THAT is why people buy Jeeps! It goes where other vehicles don't- and has a personality of its own.
I still want one- but GAHD! If the vehicle didn't sell itself- the ads sure wouldn't be doing the job.
And the billboards are the most boring atiseptic ads I've ever seen.
Why do all the major circulation ads show this vehicle shiny and clean.
Only in a car mag did I see the ad with the mud (pretty good ad)-
Oh well.....maybe they know something us actual Jeep fans don't!!
Carbuyingtips.com was an excellent site for more info- thanks for the tip.
Tim
PS - Anyone else with a thought on this issue? Please feel free...
I keep getting told by dealers that sunroofs are not being made, that it could be 6 months...
And I can't seem to find a dealer with side air bags...they tell me they are rare or something. Anyone else find this?
Also, what are some good online dealers to look at?
Bob
This rig is heavy, and needs the V-6 at a minimum to haul its girth around. Engine could use more low-end grunt, or quicker final drive ratio, but there goes the mileage. Again, this rig is heavy. I hope it is good in the crash tests, at least there'd be justification for the porkiness.
Build quality seemed excellent, seemed like it was carved from stone it was so solid. Shockingly great build quality, slight left pull in braking. Tranny shift points seemed appropriate.
Front seats extrememly uncomfortable. Could not adjust to a good position. Cushions too short and narrow, & seating position will straighten the spine no matter which way it is adjusted (a good thing maybe). This is not comfort. A real miss here, sadly. Makes me wonder what the target market is? Nissan Xterra's crowd maybe, but not boomers for sure.
Ride was very well controlled, but I felt like I was almost back in my Ford Ranger 4wd. A lot of bobbing with the road surface, like it is bloodhounding every single dip (like a bobsled). Would not be pleasant on a longer jaunt, but probably tolerable for quick around-town jaunts. I think they missed the mark with the ride, unless of course you want a total "Jeep" ride.
Try using the power seat controls with the door closed. You'll never get your hand down there because you arm will get wedged by the driver door armrest. Jeesh, maybe they should've put the seat controls on the console too.
Window controls on the console: very bad when there's another front seat passenger. Like to wait while the other person fiddles with their switch? You will, and you won't like it. You also won't like having to take your eyes off the road to see the correct switch. C'mon DC, fix it.
Tried lowering the rear windows to see if the 'woofing' was there. And yes it is there in spades. Get rid of this problem DC, the darn windows should be usable at any pricepoint.
All in all, I didn't see it as a sufficiently comfortable vehicle, and I told the salesman that. The build quality seemed quite remarkable, but you're going to have to learn to live with a lot of discomforts and poor design on some things in your ownership years. If they had just sweated the details a bit more, I think I'd buy one, the looks are just great IMHO.
If this vehicle is going to have wide appeal, they've got to straighten out these issues. We were going to order one if we liked it, but changed our minds after driving it. I'm late forties in age. This is where a lot of moolah is, DC.
Again, all this is IMHO. You gotta drive one yourself and make your own judgements. I just with mine could have been different.
Don't get me wrong I like the Liberty a lot, but if you're not convinced you need 4WD, there are many other better and more logical choices out there—and they're all cars, not SUVs. Cars will get better mileage, handle better and are safer because they must meet tougher government crash regulations. Most station wagons will be just about as capable as an SUV, from a cargo standpoint. I would strongly suggest you look at an AWD Subaru sedan or wagon, not a Liberty.
If it's just because you like the looks of the Liberty, then buy what you like. I can't help you. Good luck with whatever you choose.
Bob
After owning a Liberty Limited for 2 weeks and putting 700 miles on it (including a Bay Area to Tahoe roundtrip on Friday), I thought I'd post my impressions so far.
Ride and handling - Not carlike at all, the Liberty has a firm suspension that leaves you with a solid, trucklike impression. A bit bouncy without a load, the ride smooths out considerably once you throw in a couple full grown passengers and gear. Handles well on twisty mountain roads, fair amount of body lean but not bad overall keeping in mind this is a very capable off road vehicle. Never had a problem keeping up with traffic, either uphill or down. City driving is great as it shrugs off potholes and other road imperfection. While not as nimble as the Escape/Trib, it's still fun to maneuver in.
Engine - Reasonably smooth, unobtrusive V-6 that provides decent acceleration around town. You'll have no trouble beating someone off the line at the stoplight or merging into traffic on the freeway. Much less engine noise in cockpit compared to Escape/Tribute. 400+ mile Tahoe trip produced 19.2 MPG, suspect it would have been better but mountains do take a toll on mileage.
Interior - Mostly I love it. Very good stereo w/the Infinity speaker package. Still haven't gotten to like the center located window switches, probably never will, but find it to be a minor annoyance. Seat comfort is quite good, but you should be aware that the Sport has different (cheaper, highback) seats than the limited. It was one of the main reasons I didn't get the sport, I found the seats very uncomfortable. My 5'11" rear seat passenger reports the back seats are fine for 2 hour sessions. At 70 - 75 on the highway, interior is quiet with just a little windnoise intruding. Lowering a rear window at highway speeds creates the worst buffeting noise I've ever heard in any auto. Can be reduced (almost eliminated) by cracking a front window. Doesn't occur until 40 - 45 MPH, so doesn't happen in city driving, about the only time I really lower the rear windows.
Off-road - Managed a few miles on a poorly maintained dirt road through the Sierras on the way to our fishing spot and I can report that the Liberty handles rocks, ruts, dips, mounds, etc., as well as I'd hoped. One of my passengers drives a LR Discovery and commented on how well the Lib's suspension handled everything (and on the rear windows going all the way down!). I'm hoping to find some more challenging terrain next time as this little dirt road run was a blast.
Cargo - On the trip to Tahoe the Lib handled:
1) 3 people from 5'8" to 6'2"
2) 1 small ice chest
3) 3 sets of fishing gear (waders, boots, vests)
4) 3 float tubes
5) 1 pontoon boat (frame on the roof)
6) 6 fly rods in cases
No complaints about comfort or space from anyone. Overall, both passengers liked the vehicle.
Tires - I was surprised to see the Lib came equipped with Eagle RS-A's rather than a light duty truck tire like a Wrangler. I'm sure it's a contributing factor in the lack of tire noise and how well it handles, but might be a liability if I ever tackle rougher terrain.
Overall, I'm completely happy with my purchase. I've found the Liberty fun to drive, both on-road and off, a capable hauler for my purposes (camping and fishing), comfortable, and so far trouble free. Considering my previous ride was a Honda Prelude, I'm surprised at how happy I am with the ride, handling, and acceleration of the Lib. Sure, there are a few things that could be improved, but so minor I'm having no trouble living with them.
Everyone seems to like the styling, and Wrangler and Cherokee drivers get all swivel headed when I drive by :-)