Pontiac GTO

bigdaddycoats

I don't know who this bigdaddygoats is that you speak of, but these are the new incentives. And as pointed out earlier it is financing plus the $3500 - the program ends 11-1-04. Your dealer is wrong. Go to gmfamilyfirst.com and pull down the incentives box.

hammen2

...are also displayed at Pontiac.com (I looked 'em up to verify my post that the $3500 GMAC bonus was still available with the low finance rates).

--Robert

ua01682

My coats-goats, too much thinging of GTO! Thanks for the corrections! I will check w/ the buypower site.

sputterguy

You just don't get it. Without xenons I get second looks, stares, thumbs up, people roll down their windows to ask about it. People stop to check it out in front of my house. You want a better GTO, I don't know what to tell you. And frankly, I don't care if another GTO is ever sold. The less of them out there, the more mine is worth...

white6

If anything, I would like:

Dead pedal for my left foot: 2005 models will have this standard (I made and installed one yesterday. Major improvement in cruising comfort)

Dual zone auto climate control: This is a no-brainer since it is standard equipment on the CV8 Monaro that the GTO is based on. I don't know how much they saved by "de-contenting" this way, but this is one thing I wish they would have left in.

ua01682

Anyone heard any good leasing deals this month on '04 GTOs?

andys120

If you say so...I have dual zone-climate control in my current ride and I could live without it a lot easier than I could a moonroof or even rain-senising wipers

ocmike3

options are a personal thing. I've had all of them except the xenon on one rig or another over the years. I can do with out many - Some I think are more gimmicks than useful. Personally I like heads up displays, auto climate control, compass/thermometer, air conditioned seats (yeah here in the NW) and can do with out moonroof, nav system, heated seats, dual climate control...

Mr_Shiftright

This GTO launch is SOOOO GM, isn't it? (Can you whisper Pontiac Fiero? Took them three tries to get it right and by that time the buyers left town).

I don't think they really targeted or sold the audience precisely, and I agree they didn't option the car quite right either. Close but no cigar. Well, still better than Ford's WIDE miss with the new T-Bird and the Marauder.

bluerex03

"Anyone heard any good leasing deals this month on '04 GTOs?"

Chicago Sun Times shows 255$/24m 0 down / 12000 miles/year

Its very tempting to trade mine 03'WRX with 26M miles, that I got offered 17,800$ for it. I will miss all wheel drive though....I did drive Z28 in the winter before and wasn't pretty...

ua01682

Which Chicago dealer in the Sun Times?

kevm14

IMO, auto climate control is sorely missing from this otherwise fairly upscale interior. It's actually the thing I notice first. And the knobs are still crappy mechanical controls. Should at least be electronic with only a light touch required. This is a nice car, not an f-body (I own an f-body so don't flame me).

bluerex03

www.rogersautogroup.net

montanafan

Could the fact that there is no Auto-Climate Control (and other features offered down under) be a factor of the GTO being converted to Left Hand Drive? Perhaps there was not the needed time or desire to reenginer a dead car(being replaced perhaps as soon as 2007 model year) for the driver side change.

Also as far as the NAV debate goes here and elswhere (G6), approximately 4% of the vehicle sold in 2003 had nav units from numbers I have read.

exzur

The GTO is a limited production vehicle. My guess is 18,000 or less annually. GM has to make a good amount of money per vehicle to keep this project going. Unlike high volume cars like the Accord, Camry, etc., and several GM vehicles. They can afford to sell these cars at a very small profit. The high number of cars sold(in the hundred of thousands) will compensate for a very small money made per vehicle.

If GM can only let go a very limited number of GTOs this year and next year at a very huge discounts, say $6,000 to $9,000 per vehicle, I won’t be surprised if GM would consider killing the GTO.

I heard, in 2007, the GTO will be redesigned using a new platform. Why wait? Remember the Fiero. When GM got it right, potential buyers has left and opted for a different car. Will history repeat itself???

ua01682

What is the best way to monitor for rebate changes/incentives? Is there any proactive registration, e.g., email alerts etc? Thanks!

white6

They build left hand drive cars for export to middle east. Anyway, the center stack (where HVAC controls are) is identical to both left and right hand drive cars. Seems really goofy to build a cheaper mechanical version for U.S. when the electronic control version is probably cheaper to build. Downloaded the brochure for the 2005 Monaro last night. It has dual-zone electronic climate control and memory seat/mirrors as standard equipment. This means that they don't build or sell a manual mechanical version (like our GTO) for local consumption. I did a 24-month SmartBuy on my GTO; hopefully the 2006 model will address some of these shortcomings and I'll give em back my 04 for an 06 that has all the "right stuff."

exzur

Quote: “If you had ever driven the car you'd know it's not even remotely close to a "Cavalier on steroids.”

You don’t get me. The issue is the looks of the car. I don’t have to drive it. It’s the look. Even the GTO has the performance and the ineterior of the Corvette, I still call it Cavalier on steriods. Simply because no matter how I look at it(the exterior only, get it) these australian GTO looks like an oversized Cavalier.

And that is the looks alone. The steroids is the vette’s engine and transmission.

rob999

From your tiresome and repetitive posts, YOU obviously don't like the looks of the GTO.

But how can you possibly complain about the styling of the GTO?
After all, you bought an AZTEK!

andys120

Touche

exzur

Quote: "Touche"

It’s not I don’t like the looks of the GTO, however, IMO and I think I am not alone, I could be in the majority, because this new GTO is a flop, the cavalier look alike body does not deserve GMs one of the best, if not the best powertrain, the vette’s engine and transmission.. Just when I thought Bob Lutz is a genius.

On the contrary, the Aztek body deserves GMs mediocre engine and transmission. Some of you maybe those Aztek haters of years ago, disguise or hiding with another name.

Just when you run out of reason, you bring on the Aztek. I remind you, this is not the proper forum to discuss the Aztek.

kentmoon

I am up to about 1400 mile, and mileage is definately improving. I am up to about 23-24 mpg now on about 80% freeway driving.

* Likes so far: power, more comfortable than bimmers i had, quality materials, good looks (believe it or not), absolutely no mechanical probs, great deal, good handling, good seats

* Dislikes: hard to get in and out in my garage with limited space, kind of hard to drive smooth in local road with manual, backseat is hard to get into, missing home link, memory seats, outside temperture and premium sound.

* Bottom line: A deal of a decade. Where do you get a covette engine, european style and quality for a mustang price? Get it while you can!!

sspeedracer

"the cavalier look alike body does not deserve GMs one of the best, if not the best powertrain, the vette’s engine and transmission"

The first GTO built was an option package based on Pontiac's 1964 Tempest. Smallest, lightest, most underpowered Pontiac available.

No one thinks the '04 GTO is ugly, some just think its not flashy enough. Keep in mind that the only GTO with flash was the "Judge" model option in 1969 for $332.

SLP (Street Legal Performance) Trademarked the "Judge" name while GM was asleep at the proverbial wheel. SLP spiced up the firebird model into the firehawk. SLP also created the 4th generation Camaro "SS" package (which I own and race).

I'm shopping for a new car and will be looking closer at the '05 GTO, '05 RX8 and '05 300C SRT8 (if I can wait that long).

If you own an Aztec, please dont post your performance and aesthetics advise. I dont need to explain why.

qbrozen

It wasn't just the Judge that had flash or style. Yes, there were some plain jane Goats, but there were scoops and louvers on models other than the Judge. If you want to see some nice pics, check out this site: http://www.gtoalley.com/
Even the '64 had louvers and a convertible option.

ua01682

Here Here!

exzur

From http://web-cars.com/gto/pontiac_index.php, I quote,
“Not up for debate was the sales success of the Pontiac GTO. The marketing types predicted that about 10,000 GTOs would be sold; the final tally for 1964 was 32,450”
                                                                                                   
If I remember it right, the projected sale of the cavalier look-alike 2004 GTO was 20,000. GM was very optimistic that buyers will fall in line to buy this car. At first, dealers markup was up to $5,000. Now, the year is almost over and I think only 6 to 7, maybe 8 or 9 thousands cavalier look-alike GTOs were sold. Even at a very huge discount, this cavalier look-alike GTO is a hard sell.

If you were right, in your post, comparing the 1964 GTO to the 2004 australian GTO, please explain to me why the original 1964 goat was so successful and the cavalier look alike GTO is a failure? Why is the result so different? Something is wrong somewhere. Don’t you think so?

I still maintain, the reason for failure is the cavalier look-alike body is not worthy of the 2005 corvette engine and trasmission. I am not saying you can’t put it there. Only that it is not worthy. GM will loose money.
  
Your experience as car race driver is useless as my owning of an Aztek is irelevant in this case.

bigdaddycoats

exzur: Have you driven one??

qbrozen

he's not complaining about performance, he's complaining about looks. So whether he has driven one is irrelevant to his argument.

Note: i'm not taking sides, just pointing out details.

b4z

I am not quite sure what you are trying to accomplish?

Do you really want to discuss the merits of the GTO? Or are you trying to get a reaction?

The term "Cavalier look-alike GTO" does nothing
to engender a formative discussion here.

You would not want me to refer to you as "Aztek owning exzur".

GM has the capacity to build 18K GTOs a year.

So far this year they have sold 8,229. Which is more than in 1973 or 1974.

I think the GTO will do well. it will never sell as much as a Camaro or Firebird but it will do well.

The incentives being aplied to the GTO are no different than EVERY vehicle GM makes.

I guess the Escalade is not a success because you can get one for 12K off.

bigdaddycoats

very well, we have heard his complaint about looks - let it rest.

Mr_Shiftright

Thank you bigdaddy, that's the way we like to work at Edmunds. Make your point, re-inforce it if you have to, and then let's move on. Nobody wants to stay in the room if the debate gets too one-on-one and repetitious.

ua01682

I am really interested in the GTO. I test drove one and really enjoyed it. I currently own a lightweight roadster and autocross it competitively.

What do any of you think I should consider driving-style wise? Gotchas?

rob999

While styling of the GTO might not be some folks' cup o' tea, I think slow sales have been more of a result of the following 2 factors (IMO):

1. Even before the 2004 models hit these shores, GM was promising the 400hp LS2 and enhanced styling in the 2005 model, so in effect they poisoned the prospects for the my2004 cars and many customers are just waiting for the 2005. If I was in the market right now, I'd wait for the 2005. SSPEEDRACER - you mentioned you're considering a 2005 - is this your reason for the delay?

2. An MSRP of $34K (plus dealer gouging) turned many prospects off during the summer months. When you hit the $34K mark, there are lots of interesting performance cars in the market to choose from. It's only since the incentives kicked in during the last couple months that sales have increased significantly.

I truly believe the 2005 GTO will be success in the coming year.

UA01682 - if you're considering a 2004, go for it as they are a much better deal right now.

hammen2

...has been an issue since day 1.

Who is the market of the GTO? The roundish design tends to skew younger, but those folks don't have the $$$ to buy new GTO's, generally.

The old muscle car enthusiasts in their 40's and 50's are more likely to have the disposable income, but don't like the styling (took my car to a car show, you should have heard some of the comments - "upside-down bathtub", "overdone Grand Am" - of course, a bunch of them didn't believe me that the car was RWD, so I guess their expectations weren't high).

I agree that $33k is too expensive for this car. I do know it costs GM a pretty penny to build them in Australia and ship them to the U.S. - one of the reasons why the U.S. cars are somewhat decontented (no automatic, digital climate control, no side airbags (though the latter may be due to differences in US and Australian safety regulations). If the fire sale hadn't have started last month, I wouldn't have my GTO.

I would expect the next gen will have more "traditional" GTO/Pontiac styling cues. Since it will be built in either the U.S. or more likely Canada (Oshawa), it will be cheaper, or at least be available with both fewer and more options/amenities at different price points (biggest thing I personally miss is the temperature/auto-dim mirror - guess I'll go scavenge one from a junkyard - but, if I were driving the car in winter months, heated seats would be #2, and maybe sunroof #3).

--Robert

ocmike3

If I had extra room in the garage, I would love to have a new GTO there. I like the subdued sleeper look. Impulse blue w/6 spd. New GTO has all the hp I need to get into trouble with. Love the seats and driving (finally broke down and took one for a drive when I was last in for service).
You can't really compare it to the GTO of yor' The technology back then made for great straight line performance, but a windy mountain road...

My major roadblock, to getting one is that with a wife and daughter, the trunk just can't handle a long weekend of stuff.

sspeedracer

ROB999- Exactly, myself and many others are waiting for the 6liter LS2 block. The muscle car wars are heating up between the big three. Fords blown 4.6L, Chryslers aluminum 6.1 liter Hemi and GM's 6.0 LS2.

I visited two Pontiac dealers today and saw 5 GTO's all with dealer markups still on the window. Worst offender was a "demo" automatic black with aftermarket non-functional ram hood, bling bling rims, and tint... $38 K ! Nevermind the fact it had 850 miles on it. What a joke.

Out of all the cars I've considered, the GTO has the best build quality. I attribute this to the several pre-production years of the Holden Monaro. Getting all the bugs out in Australia. It still didnt feel like a $33K car. Even at 30K its questionable. $25K and I would jump.

Side note.. I took the above mentioned $38K joke out for a spin... literally. T/C off and got side ways flooring it at a 5 mph roll. 18 year old salesman almost sh1t his pants!

sspeedracer

"It wasn't just the Judge that had flash or style"

Small hood scoops, heat extractors, and circus pinstripes were a style but are not stylish. Stacked headlights and endura bumpers are stylish.

Dont get me wrong, I love the original GTO's and would like to park one between my 4th generation camaro and my '57 tripower. My guess is that a few POCI members check out these posts also.

sspeedracer

"If you were right, in your post, comparing the 1964 GTO to the 2004 Australian GTO, please explain to me why the original 1964 goat was so successful and the cavalier look alike GTO is a failure? Why is the result so different? Something is wrong somewhere. Don’t you think so?" -exzur

I agree that the '04 GTO was a failure. However, I am not surprised and do not think anything is "wrong."

There are several reasons for the poor sales numbers. The most basic being that GM does not support or promote Pontiac. Would you be surprised if Pontiac went the way of Oldsmobile?

Pontiac was the "performance" division in the '60's. Now it is third string behind chevy and cadillac.

The original GTO was a stripped down, motor only car that looked like mommys grocery getter. Huge bang for the buck performance. That is what attracted buyers. It is a mistake to draw from GTO history 40 years ago to explain why the '04 isnt selling. Bottom line is that the current GTO does not know its demographic.

So when you complain of the uninspiring design of the present day GTO, keep in mind that the '64 was uninspiring also. Before anyone flames, remember that the orignal was stealth except for the badge.

Be aware that the GTO drivetrain is much more similar to that of a TransAm or Camaro than a corvette.

There are more reasons for the low sales numbers, my fingers are getting tired now.

exzur

Quote: “There are several reasons for the poor sales numbers. The most basic being that GM does not support or promote Pontiac. Would you be surprised if Pontiac went the way of Oldsmobile”.

Not the 2004 GTO. I have not seen a car so well promoted and advertised in a long time, other than this GTO. Just before the launch, I had seen numerous GTO tv advertisements. At one time I was annoyed by the four, five maybe six pages, one after the other GTO ads in car magazines, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, Road and Track, etc. etc.., This GTO project is Bob Lutz idea due to demise of the F car. His name is on the line. GM spent a lot of money promoting the 2004 GTO.

If you browse some of the previous posts in this website, you will find out, I am not alone in saying, the looks of the GTO is the problem. I've read several articles stating the looks is the culprit.

I foresee the 2005 GTO to have the same fate as the 2004s. The 400 hp engine won’t make a big difference in sales. That’s wny I am holding my cards, if I can buy the 2005 GTO 6-spd with hood scoops for $25k, I would jump on it . I would not mind other people thinks, “I am driving a super size Cavalier or a Cavalier on steroids”.

From a guy who owns a 2001 yellow Aztek.

qbrozen

i thought we were dropping the looks topic, but i guess not. speedracer, did you look at the link i posted before? That '64 is definitely NOT plain jane. It has way more style than the '04. I don't really even want to talk about the style of the '04 any more (did that MONTHS ago on this board), but I'm coming to the defense of the '64. I don't think they compare in any way.

white6

A. I like the styling (sans rear "wing" which I removed the second day of ownership).
B. Engine/transmission is more Corvette than F-body (look up the specs).
C. Material quality and design is good (in fact, better than any other GM product I have sampled); but not as good as my E-46 BMW.
D. Horsepower can overcome many shortcomings; lack of headroom, decontenting.
E. I paid $25,330 (not including T&T) which is an excellent price point for this vehicle. $33,495 (MSRP) is not.

andys120

Allow me to chime in since I was one of the many enthusiasts of the original GTOs, having turned 21 in '64 so I was right in the target demographic range.

The '64 GTO was not a plain jane car in that it could be optioned out to a full luxury standard with all of the deluxe features that could be had on it's full-size contemporaries including air/cruise/stereo and even vinyl roof covering and many if not most cars were so equipped.

If you wanted you could in fact order a plain jane model (pillared coupe with three-speed) but only serious drag racers did so, interestingly even a HEATER was optional.

The car it was based on, the LeMans 2-door, was arguably the most stylish of the intermediate cars offered '64-'67 by any of the Big 3. No one could say that about a Cavalier or Grand Prix nowadays.

The "Goat" succeeded for two reasons--

1-Timing, it hit the demographic sweet spot as the first Boomers were coming of age.

2-Skillful marketing that took advantage of GM's dominance and Pontiac's styling prowess.

Neither of these factors is relevant to today's market so the new GTO can never be more than a niche player but I certainly think that it can be a successful niche player for GM if properly equipped and marketed right assuming gas prices don't continue to sky rocket.

bigdaddycoats

Was the spoiler easy to remove?
What did you do about the holes in the trunk lid?

hammen2

I've heard of folks using plastic plugs they bought from Home Depot to plug the spoiler holes.

I'm contemplating removing mine (I find it's "in the way" when backing up, and it makes every car behind me seem like it's tailgating). I think I'd rather find a nice thin duck-tail spoiler and put that on instead, rather than the "wing" of the current style (look at some of the spoilers available from JHP (http://www.jhp.com.au) or CAPA (http://www.capa.com.au)).

Of course, since I'll be garaging the car within the next few weeks (assuming it doesn't become a GM buyback - see my post over in "Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous" in News and Views), I probably won't do anything until next spring...

--Robert

fformula88

Since I have been taking a serious look at the GTO for my next daily driver, I thought I would chime in on why its sales may not have been as good as expected.

I see a lot of people place blame on styling. No question the styling has come under fire for not being aggressive enough, but isn’t really only because of the GTO nameplate? If BMW or Mercedes had put out a car with similar lines, performance, and build quality they would sell it for at least $10K more and the automotive press would praise its clean, grown up executive coupe lines. However, since the press and GTO enthusiats expects a heritage look these days when a classic nameplate is resurrected, and they also expect aggressive styling details on Pontiacs from years of cladding excess, they feel somehow let down by this car. However, the car does have a clean purposeful stance to it with a sporty flair, and although it does not look GTO it does look good enough that it should sell with the ‘Vette drivetrain and best interior in any non-Cadillac GM product I have seen.

What has really hurt the GTO is the sticker price. Its MSRP is just too expensive. Not because it lacks a sunroof or HID lamps (although that hurts at 33K) but because there is tons of competition at that price. Not only does the competition get thick, but GM’s own C5 Corvette fire sale also had to have eaten into GTO buyers. There were dealers handing out Corvette’s in the mid to upper $30’s all summer long. Basically the GTO is priced up in the niche sports car market, above some good competitors, where the number of buyers is already fairly small. Your not going to get Mustang buyers used to shelling out $25K into $33K GTO’s.

As we saw, sales took off with incentives. They sold somewhere around 2500 units in September. That pace would easily far outsell their desired 18K units over the course of the year (it would be 30,000 units if the same volume held all 12 months). If that doesn’t tell everyone the problem is the price, I don’t know what does!

rob999

RE: "If BMW or Mercedes had put out a car with similar lines, performance, and build quality they would sell it for at least $10K more and the automotive press would praise its clean, grown up executive coupe lines."

Exactly. I passed a MB CLK320 on the way in to work this morning. It's almost exactly the same size and profile as the GTO and you could only descibe the styling as very understated.

exzur

Excellent analysis. However, had the 2004 GTO been launched with the heritage look and a more agressive style, I think it will fly at a lesser discounts or incentives. May be at around 30 grand, not the mid $20K for the cavalier look-alike GTO.

rob999

exzur, is it possible for anyone to post here without another followup from you with the same "cavalier-like styling" comments??!!!!

We understand your view. You've made your basic points on styling OVER and OVER again. While everyone is entitled to a viewpoint, this constant repetition is highly obnoxious and against good forum manners. Stop it, or we'll have to use the A----k word again.

exzur

rob999, I am very sorry, if have annoyed you. But I am just responding to a post. I agree with
his excellent analysis, except for that one, which I have to point out. First I use the 2004
GTO. It is redundant if I use 2004 GTO again to describe the same car. I have to use another words. If you think I don’t have a good forum manners and you want to invoke that A----k word is all up to you. I am abiding by the rules. If I am going out of bounds, it is not you but the HOST who can stop me.

white6

Actually, I always liked the Cavalier's styling. I don't really think my GTO looks much at all like a Cavalier, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.