Subaru Crew: Official SOA Presence (aka Patti)

jesse370

Patti, I work less then five minutes from SOA. I would love to show anyone that needs to see the problem it first hand. If I can help in anyway please email me.

ateixeira

She may still be on sick leave, though she has started reading some boards. Did you call the 800 number to get information on your case #?

-juice

kens

Brian,

That's a good point. Look at the Crew -- we're all out there selling Subarus! It would be valuable to learn "How many Subaru purchases of friends, family or collegues did you influence and why?". Ask that question here and you'll get a ton of answers.

Did the survey start with the all important "This survey will take approximately X minutes to complete?". I find that all too many surveys do not provide this important piece of information.

Ken

jay_24

I too got the survey in the US snail mail. I too had a similar comment to Brian's... it needs to be wider to truely seat 5. 3 kids in boosters do/don't fit depending on brand and model of seat. 3 more inches in width would be really nice.

The comments section of the survey was a little too small. I couldn't write enough good things about Patti.

--Jay

rsholland

I bet all of us here have either directly or indirectly influenced a friend or family member to buy a Subie of some sort. I know I have, but I bet juice is the clear winner here.

Bob

ateixeira

Maybe: cousin, dad, wife, sister, 2 co-workers, and one of my step mom's friends. Word of mouth is the best advertising.

-juice

paisan

10+ at least.

-mike

hypov

I don't know
But I do know I keep sending them to "Mark the Dealer"

-Dave

rsholland

I know SOA is very much involved with the 2002-03 WRX brake failure issue. FYI: This was just in today's Baltimore Sun newspaper:

http://www.sunspot.net/news/local/annearundel/bal-ar.accident08oc- - - t08,0,6111218.story?coll=bal-local-arundel

2 people died in a car accident, one being the driver of a 2002 Impreza. While the article did not mention "WRX," it's probably safe to assume that this is the case because: (A) it mentioned aggressive driving, which more than likely means a WRX, as opposed to less powerful Imprezas, and (B) the driver of the Impreza lost control of the vehicle when he slammed on his brakes.

Granted, I'm making assumptions here without full knowledge of the incident, but my guess is this is another case of WRX brake failure which ended tragically.

Bob

bluesubie

I don't know if you can tie that to a WRX brake issue:

"A car described as a dark-colored or black Chevrolet Impala was speeding west on Route 32 when it cut off another speeding car, a 2002 Subaru Impreza driven by Browning."

"Browning apparently slammed his brakes and lost control of the car, which careened across the center line into eastbound traffic,..."

-Dennis

ateixeira

2 drivers going too fast for the conditions (obviously, else they could have avoided each other). I also wouldn't blame the hardware.

The complaints usually center around bumpy pavement, and the ABS engaging too abruptly. If the pavement was bumpy and the driver was still speeding, well...that's just really bad judgement.

-juice

twrx

I never had the first problem with my ABS in 29,800 miles of driving of my 2002 WRX wagon.

TWRX

c_hunter

As I understand it, the brake issue is related to uneven/bumpy roads and oddball surfaces interacting with the ABS, and probably involves driver reaction as well.

When someone is speeding, zipping in and out of lanes, and cutting other drivers off, my guess is that he lost control of his car because of reckless driving. It doesn't take a whole lot to lose control of a car under those conditions. I think it's a long shot to tie this in to reported brake issues, especially since we (the public) don't know everything there is to know about either case. It's quite a stretch.

Craig

hypov

<<(B) the driver of the Impreza lost control of the vehicle when he slammed on his brakes.>>

Don't forget that majority of those who have "issues", or like lemmings that think they have "issues" with the ABS disabled their ABS. In this scenario, I'm incline to think it's driver's error [disabling ABS] and not the ABS at fault.

-Dave

snowbelter

I've had the ABS engage many times, when I've been slowing to a stop on bumpy roads with uneven pavement. The other day I was going less than 20 mph when it happened as I was slowing for a "stop sign". This is always a surprise even though it has happened a number of times. I always get the feeling that the brakes aren't "stopping the car" even though they do. Perhaps the stopping distance is more when this happened. I've been going less than 30 mph most of the times this has happened. For what its worth, the ABS on my wife's 00 OB is much less sensitive. Don't know if thats a model year difference or just Limited OB vs VDC.

locke2c

not to pick on your Bob, but you kind of asked for it...

quote: Granted, I'm making assumptions here without full knowledge of the incident, but my guess is this is another case of WRX brake failure which ended tragically.

that's a very irresponsible conclusion to jump to!

unless proven otherwise, odds heavily favor that this incident was the result of driver error in both judgment and car control.

last year when I cracked a few ribs due to an 'incident' on my dad's Honda XR650R, I sure didn't suspect that Honda had made a defective or dangerous enduro. I suspected that I screwed up.. and the result being that 300lb of dirtbike crushed me.

-Colin

ateixeira

Another thought - if the driver slammed the brakes and the ABS issues came up, the car would simply not slow down, it would not have spun out of control.

That makes Dave's theory that the driver might have removed the ABS fuse more likely than any other.

-juice

rsholland

I guess we'll never know, as the Impreza driver died...

I did qualify my statement. I didn't say for sure this is the reason, but knowing the WRX has braking issues it's not that far of a leap IMO. Also we don't know what the road conditions were. Who knows, maybe the road surface was rough where this occurred.

Bob

ateixeira

Yes, but my point was that if the road surface was rough and bumpy, he shouldn't have been speeding in the first place.

I just believe we as drivers have to take responsibility for our actions. Moot point, as that driver already did. :-(

-juice

rsholland

the guy was a jerk. Now he's a dead jerk. And we'll probably never know as to whether the brakes played a role in this unfortunate event, unless SOA examines the wreck. Even then there's no guaranty an answer will be found.

I'm just saying the way that news report was written, and knowing about the WRX brake issue, it's not that far of a stretch IMO.

Bob

locke2c

it's an unnecessary stretch though!

barring hard evidence it's much more reasonable to theorize that driver error was responsible. it is far more likely, statistically speaking, and it doesn't slander the manufacturer unjustly.

people make mistakes far more often than machines... even ones with moving parts.

-Colin

kens

While I can see Bob's point that one would be led to believe the news article is in someway associated to the ABS investigation, there's really not enough information to make that conclusion.

ABS or not, anyone travelling at high speeds and suddenly slamming their brakes is bound to get into trouble. It appears being able to stop wasn't the issue -- he "careened" across the freeway.

Ken

ateixeira

In that case, the steering and tires also failed. Sue Bridgestone! ;-)

-juice

rsholland

Colin, do you honestly think I want to slander Subaru?

Bob

locke2c

intentionally, absolutely not! that's the result of unfounded conclusions though.

-Colin

rsholland

but it certainly looks suspicious, at the very least, given the history of WRX brake problems.

Bob

hypov

The problem with the WRX brakes is there aren't any problems with them. If there were then it would span beyond the WRX, and we'll be hearing a whole load of crashes [loose nut behind the steering wheel excluded].

-Dave

paisan

1) If the ABS problem occured in this case, he would have slowed down at a SLOWER rate than expected rather than a FASTER rate, it would have actually avoided the accident rather than caused it.

2) It's a big stretch bob, if you are gonna say that the brakes are suspect, then I guess the accident in NY on Sunday night where a MB slammed a divider on the west side highway cause he was doing 90+mph should be blamed on the engine being too powerful?

3) Loose nuts behind the wheel cause most of the accidents out there, PERIOD, end of story...

-mike

leo2633

we arrested a kid doing 123 MPH in his Sentra SER Spec-V last night. It may be fast, but it can't outrun a Motorola (or a Crown Vic Police Interceptor). So today, there's one less idiot on the highways of northern NJ.

Len

rsholland

My understanding of the ABS problem with the WRX is, under certain conditions, on rough road surfaces as an example, the brakes disappear momentarily. You don't get reduced braking, you lose the brakes entirely. Zip&#151;no braking, whatsoever. If, under aggressive driving, you lose the brakes, it could be the difference between life and death.

The government has launched an investigation into this already, and I know at least one other death has been attributed to this issue. SOA is aware of this investigation, and I'm sure is doing everything in their power to get to the bottom of this.

The following link/pdf is the governments investigation of the WRX brakes. If you scroll far enough down, you can read about all the individual incidents that have been reported, in the the death that I mentioned.

http://152.122.48.12/prepos/files/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2003/PE- - /INIM-PE03029-15746.pdf

Still, I will grant that you all could be right, and that this was not ABS related, and was strictly driver error.

Bob

locke2c

Jon [in CT] came in here within the first few days of this discussion being opened and attempted to grill Patti about this very issue. He hasn't said anything since.

I am aware of the issue and I still believe it is improper to assume this to be causation, when many tens of thousands of vehicles have had no problems reported and drivers make mistakes everyday without the influence of any mechanical failure.

-Colin

rsholland

but there's a dedicated thread over on the "other site," where a discussion has been occurring. Nothing nasty, or anything like that, but there has been a continuing discussion.

Bob

hondafriek

My 02, the fact that braking is lost would be even less likely to cause the car to swerve into another lane, the only thing to my mind that would cause a vehicle to swerve violently under braking would be impropery balanced brakes to one or other front wheels.

 An example would be a seized caliper on one or other front wheels, causing no braking on one wheel that would definitely cause the vehicle to swerve.

  I think this smacks of out and out driver error, and this discussion could be put to bed.

  Cheers Pat.

subaru_team

In reading this (with the information that is only available in the article) and based on coversations I've had with other owners, I do not feel (my opinion only) that this has anything to do with the complaints related to WRX ABS. I'm not saying "problems", I'm saying complaints for a reason. While there has been a lot of postings about "the" issue, we cannot get anyone to duplicate it. It makes the issue a major challenge. That's not to say there there isn't something going on. Unfortunately, it's one of those things that takes on a life of it's own and sorting through what is being experienced is messy. Bob - you're right when you say we're working on it - we are and we take it seriously. It's just that the "blame it on the brakes" thing whenever someone has an accident muddies the waters a bit.

Patti

hypov

Patti-
My offer [Pebbles] as a Test Mule still stands

-Dave

paisan

It's DRIVER ERROR!!!

If you are speeding over bumps, you get the feeling of "brake loss" when the ABS is activated due to wheels loosing traction. I'm sick of people who instantly want to blame the car rather than their own poor driving skills or inappropriate speeds over bumps.

-mike

twrx

Do you own a WRX? Think you have an opinion without having owned one. Having said that, if there is a problem I have not seen it. Never happened in 29,800 on WRX 1 and has not happened in the first 1000 on WRX 2.

hypov

Need not own or drive a WRX.
Don't all Subie models share the same ABS system?
Why the WRX and not the other models?
Too Fast Too Furious I'm incline to believe.

Had my ABS kick in coming to an abrupt stop at a Stop sign a month back. Hey, I felt and thought I was going ~30mph, but my GPS tracking revealed I was 20 over.

Bring on the Black Box

-Dave

paisan

But I've driven lots of miles behind the wheel of WRXs, pushed em (spun em) etc.

I even got em to kick in on Hypov's car in a certain place.

-mike

twrx

That's a satisfactory answer. I really am neutral on the issue to the extent I have not had mine give a problem, but maybe someone has a valid issue. I will also add I never got the WRX wagon out to Colorado and took it on any gravel/dirt roads but I do hope to do so next summer with the new sedan. So if rough roads are the problem...

TWRX

snowbelter

Paisan, please explain how your "driver error" theory applies to my report when I've been going 30 mph or less. As I've said, when the ABS kicks in, the brakes "feel" like they aren't working. I can duplicate this almost every time I drive on a couple of streets with a washboard surface in the city near where I live.

paisan

Your particular car may be broken, so you'd have to take it on a case by case basis. But in general, my guess is that you are going >30mph or are going >the speed necessary for control on that particular situation. As hypov posted, he thought he was going 30mph, but GPS log showed he was >20mph faster than that. It's not only subies that do this on bumps, any ABS equpped car will do it. I can replicate it with my trooper, dad's legacy, etc. etc.

Also you may "feel" like no brakes, but it's not "no brakes" it's "less brakes" due to one or more wheels having the abs engaged.

-mike

bluesubie

and I know how to react.

As Dave and I have said numerous times, our current and prior Subaru's did this. Maybe we have more potholes where we live. :-)

All it takes to correct it is to lift and reengage the brake pedal again. I can duplicate it when stopping at a red light in Watchung, NJ on Rt. 22. There is a small bridge near the light with a rough surface.

-Dennis

rsholland

Did you read that PDF link I posted? It gave case histories of these incidents with descriptions.

Bob

hypov

Bob-
One really can't assess YES or NO based on face value of those incident descriptions.

There are many variables that are not included and/or not disclosed by the compliants.
i.e. were the wheels recently washed? did they bling the tires with those tire glaze? were they actually travelling at the speed they purport to be travelling at?
Were adequate stopping distances observed/facilitated for the actual speed, or were they based on "I thought I was travelling at"? etc...

Like one of the compliant - loss brake @ 7mph?!
Hey, I was going ~25mph when I loss Al'Gator... Not.
But that was the last numbers I saw

-Dave

rsholland

But there are enough complaints there (and here) that the government has taken interest enough to pursue the matter. I find it hard to believe all these complaints are attributed to driver error.

Bob

paisan

Complaints....

Bob you are a riot. How many nabisco people [non-permissible content removed] and complain about everything about their WRXs, "it's too heavy, it's too light, subaru screwed me on my warranty, yadda yadda yadda"

Anyone who has an accident is going to blame anything and anyone but themselves, it's just human nature...

-mike

c_hunter

OK, so maybe I'm an engineer, but it sounds to me like this problem could be investigated with some simple testing. Find a *safe* isolated place with bumpy pavement, and see what happens. If I can find a suitable test site, I volunteer to provide Outback, Forester, and WRX results.

I probably have a combined 130,000 miles in Hondas with ABS, and 75,000 miles in Subarus with ABS, and have not run into this problem. In my Prelude, ABS would frequently engage over bumps, but still provide ample braking power.

Craig

hypov

Quote 1
<<SUBARU WRX WAGON, 2003. WHILE ATTEMPTING TO SLOW FOR A CORNER ON A WELL GROOMED, DRY, GRAVEL ROAD THE ABS SYSTEM OF THE CAR INITIATED A MODE THAT WOULD NOT ALLOW THE CARS BRAKES TO FUNCTION AT ALL. DURING THE EPISODE (WHICH HAS BEEN AND CAN BE RECREATED) PEDAL PRESSURE AND PEDAL HEIGHT WAS MAINTAINED AS DURING NORMAL BRAKING OPERATIONS. THE BRAKES WOULD NOT WORK DESPITE THE FACT THAT I WAS STANDING WITH BOTH FEET ON THE BRAKE PEDAL. I AM IN THE PROCESS OF DISCONNECTING MY ABS AND SUBARU NA CLAIMS THAT I'M NUTS. *NLM >>

Quote 2
<<COMING AROUND CORNER ON A HILL DRIVER WAS IN MIDDLE OF ROAD AVOIDING POTHOLE I SWERVED AND BRAKED THEN SWERVED BACK. WHEN I SWERVED BACK MY BRAKE PEDAL HIT THE FLOOR AND I PROCEDED TO DRIVE ONTO SOMEONES FRONT LAWN. THE ABS SHOULDNT HAVE DONE THAT.*AK >>

I wonder why?
Sounds like one's inability to admit that they're a "tool"? [Just my observation].

Disclaimer: Block letters originated from NHTSA site, so it isn't me yelling ;-)

-Dave

rsholland

Have those involved who have actually experienced this problem. Hutch, are you listening?

BTW, not every one of these incidents has resulted in an accident.

Bob