Subaru Crew: Official SOA Presence (aka Patti)

paisan

It's human nature to blame anyone and anything but yourself for such incidents. From the descriptions I've seen, it is pretty apparent that the problem is not with the ABS system. Rather the broken part is the nut behind the wheel.

Both those above descriptions are very similar to how ABS works....

-mike

snowbelter

Paisan: Not to beat a dead horse, but my brakes aren't broken, and the ABS does activate at low speed, less than 30 mph on a bumpy road. I was looking at my speedometer when this happened the other day. I was not driving too fast for conditions. I am merely reporting what has happened to me several times. If I were speculating on what might have happened in some of the WRX cases, I would look for excessive speed as a contributing factor. What has happened to me and others has happened at slow speeds. My only question for Subaru is whether the ABS is designed to activate at such low speeds on a bumpy road or a road with uneven pavement., and if so, whether that design parameter is safe. It should be very easy to set up a test to replicate ABS activation, but may not be easy to reach a conclusion on whether there is a safety problem or whether a "fix" is necessary. I don't like ABS activation at such low speed, what I'll call a "non-excessive situation.", and as I said, my wife's 00 OB is not so sensitive.

paisan

But the system is acting normally. The ABS isn't rocket science, it doesn't know bumpy road from non bumpy slick road. It senses that one wheel (the one "bouncing") is rotating slower (bouncing means less weight is pushing the rubber to the road, hence the wheel locks) and activates the ABS on that wheel to prevent skidding.

Your wife's outback most likely has differnt tires, and is heavier than your WRX, that could be why it activates quicker on the WRX.

What people are alleging in the descriptions is that they loose total braking on all wheels or "no brakes" which is probably not the case.

I can induce the same reaction in just about any ABS car given the correct road. As I've said, this is the case with my Trooper, Dad's Legacy, WRX, Sonata, Acura TLS, SVX, and just about any other ABS equipped car I've driven.

I did notice that after suspension and tire upgrades on some of these vehicles, the ABS activation is less on bumps which leads me to believe that it's simply ABS activating telling me I was taking the bumps a bit to speedily.

-mike

snowbelter

For the record: I drive a VDC wagon which is heavier than my wife's 00 OB sedan. She has Firestone and I have Bridgestone tires.

locke2c

uh, I for one believe that there are some cars with improperly functioning ABS. isn't it embarrassing to try to defend such a ludicrous position or do you really just enjoy arguing so much the point of the debate and the facts are irrelevant?

the ABS in my 99 Impreza 2.5RS functioned splendidly. I believe something was changed in the tuning or mechanical function in later model years that is causing these problems...

-Colin

subaru_team

I'm just saying that we shouldn't jump to a conclusion everytime we read about an accident (a very sad one at that) that it is caused by "bad brakes". Wreckless driving appears to be a major cause in the accident cited. Since I first read of complaints about the ABS in WRX's (I drove two different WRX's) and I could not make it happen - and I really tried. I read about the circumstances listed and tried to get the car's in similar situations and could not make it occur. Then, when you speak to some folks that report the problem, they keep referencing what they read on the web or heard from friends or "think it may have happened once" in their car. You also hear about it with "noises". Someone reports it on the web and others say, "what does it sound like". It is described and then we get reports with "I think I heard it once in my car too". I love the wealth of information on the internet. Sorting through it is the challenge.

Anyway, I think that with Subaru's reputation for doing the right thing related to TSB's and recalls, should count for something. They are trying to isolate it and I'm sure they'll stay on top of it until they do.

Patti

leo2633

Patti,

I know that we all support "wreckless" driving. It's the "RECKLESS" driver that is a menace on the roadways.

Len

kens

Folks, why don't we just sit tight and let SOA do their work of investigating the complaints? I'm not sure if this back and forth of opinions is going anywhere...

Ken

rsholland

Now I'm sorry for bringing it up. I sure didn't expect the reaction it's recieved here. Oh well, a good intention gone awry...

Bob

subaru_team

you are well loved and respected here. I appreciate all that you share. This situation is a point of frustration for me (and I'm sure others at SOA). Don't feel bad, Bob. You are highly regarded. I'm just concerned, because of how you are viewed here, that the perception might be that we (SOA and I) don't care. We do - and about you too, Bob.

Patti

rsholland

I know that you and SOA are doing everything you can to resolve this matter. That was never in doubt as far as I'm concerned.

What I take issue with is the automatic assumption by some that this is driver error only, and that there is not a problem. Those posting here, and who have experienced it, know what I'm talking about.

Even so, in hindsight, given some of the responses, it was probably not a good idea on my part to post that news account. Live and learn...

Bob

cptplt

FWIW, I don't know what it is but I can reproduce the "problem" everytime I try at one particular junction . There is a drop in the height of the road by about , maybe an inch or less between two "slabs" of concrete right before a stoplight. If I'm braking at that point, and going 30 or less, the ABS seems to kick in and then I lose braking. Since I am aware of this anomaly I try not to be on the brakes going over that junction in the road surface.Its easy enough to override by just coming off the brakes and reapplying them but I can see if you were doing an emergency stop and not used to it, you could panic, keep the foot down like you are supposed to with ABS systems and hit something. I've never had this on my two 92 Legacies, my 98 Legacy or any other car I have now or ever had with ABS (and thats a variety of Honda, Acura, Audi, Chevy, Ford). There was a railway junction with uneven surfaces I could get it to do the same thing too, but IDOT fixed the road and I haven't been able to do it there since! It occassionally happens at a variety of other places but at this one place I can reproduce it every time no problem!

It happens with my stock 16in WRX wheels(with the original RE92s or the LM22s I now use for winter) or the 17in Subaru Legacy Turbo wheels (with S03s) I use for summer.

I have followed the discussions here and at the other "site" and the hypothesis that its a spring/suspension problem whereby a bouncing wheel in the air is perceived by the ABS as locked seems the most plausible to me. But then I know didly squat about how those things work!

Anyway if anyone from SOA wants to come to the Chicago area for a demonstration, I'd be happy to oblige.

I'm more upset about my clutch shudder than this problem!

bsvoller

-Patti: Please know that no one here who knows you doubts your personal motivations or those of your employer. Subaru's well-deserved reputation for "doing the right thing" counts for a great deal.

-All: While those who believe they are affected have understandable cause for concern and frustration, I personally see no reason to believe that Subaru or its employees are ignoring the issue, much less conducting a cover-up.

In my experience, complex issues always have complex origins. It is entirely possible that Subaru has some as yet undetected issue that needs addressing, be it in design, manufacture, assembly or maintenance of their ABS systems. Most of us have never experienced a problem with their Subaru ABS system, myself included. That doesn't mean that other's haven't. These things take time, let's give them some.

-ken: I agree that this discussion has run a bit amok lately. The amount of analysis is all out of proportion to the amount of substantiated information available.

-bob: Many of us have watched a discussion begun with the best intentions morph into something less than pleasant. I put myself at the head of that list for reasons you're all too familiar with... No worries on my account, anyway.

My 2+ cents. Now, it's back to work for me...

-brianV

paisan

There may very well be a problem with the system or there may not be. But it's extremely annoying when people in this country jump to the conclusion that everyone and everything around them other than THEMSELVES are to blame everytime there is an accident or something in their lives goes wrong.

-mike

jimmyp1

I like the people at my dealership and my car gives me no reason to see them. Can you give me any advice?

Jim

subaru_team

I'd suggest you stop into the dealership and take regular test drives of new models! Share the love, you know?

Thanks for the smile!

Patti

c_hunter

You should move to VA -- I have to go in at least once a year for state inspection, a whopping $15. If it weren't for this, they'd probably forget me alltogether!

Craig

ateixeira

It could be a couple of issues - ABS tuning, i.e. how aggressively it kicks in. I noticed Mercedes' ABS actually does allow a tiny bit of skidding, you hear it in hard braking.

Bumpy surfaces make tuning very tricky. Still, it's puzzling if not everyone feels this.

Also, there is the feedback, and I think perhaps this is the issue. Some report the pedal sinking to the ground, with no braking power (like Hutch). Others don't, yet they report the same problem of braking loss. The two examples above (the ones in all caps) seem to describe two different ABS systems!

-juice

forestir

I was wondering if Subaru or the dealers allow buyers to buy the car but not take the wheels and tires in favor of aftermarket (e.g. Tire Rack) packages. If so, how much would the buyer be credited (for example on Forester XT)?

I think this is somewhat supported if you buy the BBS wheels optionally offered on the WRX. However, we all know that's not a bargain.

p.s. Really liked the Forester XT on a test drive, except for the rubber and the really cheap sun visors.

paisan

It's up to each individual dealer if they want to do that. Officially though the only options are SOA provided BBS rims on the WRX. Even then I'm not positive they officially give you a credit for the old ones.

-mike

PS: you can probably get about $200 on the open market for stock rims and tires.

locke2c

I'd keep the stock Forester XT wheels and tires for winter use and mount 17" wheels and low profile summer tires.

The value you'd get through selling them is minimal.

-Colin

bluesubie

It wouldn't be an Impreza based vehicle without cheap sun visors. :-)

-Dennis

lark6

The quality of Forester sun visors has improved from the previous generation, which may tell you even more about the older cars than you want to know. ;-)

Ed

ateixeira

This vinyl sun visors are upgrades compared to the plastic used on the year prior, imagine those!

Ed beat me to it, I'm slowing down.

-juice

forestir

Hmmm, maybe we can start a trend with carbon fiber sun visors for Subies... it could be the next big aftermarket thing!

ateixeira

Figures, soon as we buy our 2002, the 2003 Legacy SE gets a nicer one with lit vanity mirrors.

-juice

c_hunter

You should be able to buy the upgraded visors -- I picked some up for my 2000 base Outback for about $40. Easy upgrade. Part of the wiring is already in place. The kit comes with two lighted visors and a wiring harness extension (taps into the map light).

Craig

kullenberg

Patti:
We had some discussion about my experience with the ABS system on a 99 OB. I was wondering if anything came of all the info you gathered? BTW, I just drove 6000 miles in a 03 OB, MT, with zero problems, and averaged 26.5 MPG. Great little car, but a torture chamber for someone my size!
Cheers
Pat

ateixeira

Really? Wow...

Still, on both our Subies we have aftermarket moonroofs, so access would be difficult with the custom headliner they installed. I think it's glued in place.

Have you tried to modify the seat track? On power seats it's easy.

-juice

kullenberg

Juice:
It's my mom's car, which we borrowed. She drove our ML (not enough miles left on the lease), and now wants to trade. (she's 92) There is no sunroof. The door opening is too short, and I never could get really comfortable in that seat. We're looking at the Murano or the Jeep GC next spring. The Forester XT is a possibility, but the road noise is an issue.
Cheers
Pat

ateixeira

Get an XT and some of that sound deadening stuff from a stereo shop. )

-juice

hypov

cheaper ;-)

-Dave

ateixeira

True, and those work for screaming 4 year olds in the back seat, too! ;-)

-juice

hypov

Patti-

At the risk of starting up another brush fire, I thought I share a recent observation.

I've been driving with my seat tracked two notches back to alleviate a reoccuring cramping of my legs and been driving around in the new position the last month.

OK cutting to the chase. Braking over uneven/bumpy surfaces, vibrations can be felt through the brake pedal. The vibrations and the sound of the bouncing wheels/tires is very similar and seem to emulate the ABS but it isn't the ABS kicking in. Pebbles did not appear to be slowing down as fast as it should, didn't get the grabbing feeling. Engine down shifts [4EAT] and brake pedal sinks further emulating the ABS.
No, my brakes didn't fail. I was sitting a notch too far back to allow my foot to fully utilise the pedal's range which brought about this scenario.

Just thought I share.

-Dave

nygreg

are back (50K miles now). Patti - Subaru make any headway on this? I might just bite the bullet and install 4 new Brembo rotors with Hawk pads. Otherwise car is perfect, except for the wax job it needs before the first snow.

Greg

jon_in_ct

Unfortuantely, it appears SOA management would not allow subaru_team (aka Patti) to publish any portion of SOA's response to NHTSA's Office of Defects Investigations. Luckily for us, ODI itself has published SOA's entire response. See:
http://152.122.48.12/prepos/files/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2003/PE- /INRL-PE03029-16146P.pdf

Maybe SOA management will avoid such embarassment in the future and be more forthcoming with information that will become part of the public record anyway.

ateixeira

Wish the quality were better, that's pretty hard to read.

-juice

jay_24

Appears the Honda Pilot has the ABS problem too.
I've ready a couple posts (5342 and 5343) on it in the Honda Pilot discussion.

--jay

ateixeira

Interesting. I wonder how it interacts with VTM-4, and if it effects the MDX, or even the Odyssey.

-juice

fibber2

Quoting from P6:
"Likewise, the perception of brake loss is not correct. During ABS operation, the rate of deceleration is not proportional to the brake pedal force, since the braking force is controlled by the system. Additional brake pedal force does not result in an increased rate of deceleration. When ABS is operating, overall vehicle control and stability is enhanced. We believe it is a proven safety feature."

Imagine you are in a light to light/moderate braking situation. A single wheel encounters a rough surface and bounces, or perhaps simply a slippery surface. That one wheel's speed is out of step with the others, and ABS is activated. Being a 4 channel system, only that one wheel pulses. Fine... But if I am interpreting the text correctly, no further fluid pressure will be applied to the other 3 wheels that might have excellent grip for the duration of ABS activation, no matter how much harder the pedal is depressed! To the average driver, not knowing that he is now locked into a static fluid pressure mode, it might indeed feel like no brakes!!

Maybe that is why some mfgrs are now heavily advertising 'brake assist' and 'electronic brake force distribution' on their ABS systems. It allows increased fluid pressure to the wheels that are not in ABS pulse mode.

Steve

ateixeira

The Forester XS gets EBD, while the plain X does not, I believe. I wonder if you could feel the difference?

-juice

fibber2

I don't think that there is anything that unusual about how the Subaru system is responding, it is just the first time that I have actually seen it written. I am pretty sure that my past Toyota's responded the same way - additional pedal pushing did nothing extra. But there was a safety valve that I exercised in snow driving more than once. If you pulled up on the parking brake with a quick jab, the ABS system disengaged & allowed you to snow-plow. Under some circumstances this will give shorter stopping distances, albeit with possible loss in steering control. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work on my OBW.

So why the WRX? Probably related to the stiffer suspension, tire size and rubber choice in relation to the weight & weight distribution of the vehicle. It just might bounce a single corner more on rough road stops, setting up the 'look ma, it feels like no brakes' situation. I bet BA/EBD would solve this problem.

Steve

subaru_team

comments - Dave - I hadn't thought to try that. I always drive with my seat back pretty far though. I know that it's still being looked at by quite a few of us (FHI too).

Patti

hgutstein

With the WRX,and also with a Saab 9000 I drove 15 yrs. ago. This is not problematic, I think it is just getting used to the ABS. Simple reapplication of the brakes seems to do the trick.

Atex - yes 2003 legacy SE rox! We are now also a 2 subie family. Only question is whether we can retrofit the turbo when it comes over with the legacy...

HG

ateixeira

I'll offer ours as a test mule. Got that, Patti? ;-)

-juice

locke2c

I'd like to see the test procedures described in that PDF performed on a customer's "known bad" car with NO modifications.

-Colin

hypov

SOA buying back the purported "problem" cars. Hmmm... that might quench my curiosity 'bout a recent good number of WRX owners urgently wanting to return to stock.

-Dave

kens

Steve,

You raise in interesting point about the combination of wheel and tire size. I recall at the very onset of this whole issue of some WRX owners claiming that you don't hear about the ABS issue in other countries because they get 17" wheels standard with their WRXs.

Ken

c_hunter

My WRX is a heck of a lot more planted in driving and braking since I switched to 17" wheels and tires. Part of that may be because I have heavier wheels and tires -- stocker 16" setup is about 37lb per corner, my new setup is about 48lb per. I can see how adding unsprung weight would settle the car down.

Craig

ateixeira

But the Outback Sport and RS get the same size rims and tires...

-juice