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That Altezza 2L from Japan also was never brought here for the same reason- Americans wouldn't pay 30K for a 165hp engine. The logic is that while it's great the 3.5L that it has 300hp. 38K doesn't get any options on it. Also where the IS250 is concerned while it's a new base all the old base engines of the competition have gotten stronger engines. This car performance wise is competing against the 325i, Volvo S40 T5, Acura TSX, Subaru Lagacy GT and Audi A4 2.0T. They are al faster and offer similar features. That's the benchmark they need to address performance wise. The 3L engine is more effective at that.
So lets use your logic here. The e90 330i has 255HP and retails north of $35K, loaded will run you to $40K+. For that price why not buy a G35 or TL loaded for the same price with MORE options ? And we are talking of 2006 model years here, not 7 years ago !!!
As to the low HP of the IS250, and its competitors dusting it in speed, *most* owners don't sprint 0-60 in their cars everyday (except BGDC). So its not all about sprinting, is it ? There is clearly a market for all these cars hence they are out there to give buyers choices. Its up to you in what your needs/wants are in a car. So the IS may be overpriced for what you get, others are buying it all the same. Many have said same about the 3-series for so long, yet it continues to outsell its lower-priced competitors.
My personal observation is: to rule the road, you don't need a good car, but a thick nerve. I frequently see Honda Civics (non-Si) blast through the traffic, while an NSX can be slow as hell.
Back to topic. What's wrong with a car maker offers a lower performance version at a lower cost? Everyone has his/her own opinion on "sport." But, in terms of hp/torque, IS250 is no less "sporty" than a Bimmer 323 (2.5L I6 engine, 174hp). And don't get me start on the 318 (yes, they are STILL selling these 129hp ultimate driving machines).
The difference in HP between 330 and 325 is about 17%, the difference between 350 and 250 is a whopping 50%! How can that be justifiable?
The solution is to offer 3.0 V6 ASAP (second production year?) at least in the U.S. market in addition to or instead of 250. I mean, think about it: 245 HP IS300 with a manual and AWD for $35K loaded? Makes perfect sense. I would buy that configuration on the spot. What we have right now is this:
350 is fast but expensive and automatic only: not acceptable.
250 is underpowered, no AWD with manual and still expensive: difficult to justify.
I am unconvinced that Lexus made the right choices from the start.
The only consolation is making 350 available with an "Enthusiast package" with a manual and lightly optioned for around $35K.
While it's true a TSX is a better value than a 325i when all is said and done it doesn't compete in any way with the 330i performance wise. If you were paying attention I was comparing the TSX to the IS250 not the IS350. They are 2 completely different animals in terms of performance. If performance wasn't a factor for owners though why is everyone so happy that a IS350 can go 0-60 in around 5.5 seconds or so? I think a lot of people are lying to themselves because they don't wanna admit publicly that Lexus screwed the pooch with the IS250. They are human too afterall and can make some mistakes.
P.S. I was always talking about my wants, needs, and suggestions for Lexus to improve a good car. How is this wrong? Why my opinions in my review of this car bothers you I have no earthly idea but the fact we feel differently should have no bearing on what you wanna purchase because your opinion means squat as far as my money is concerned.
To go along with your reasoning, Lexus would have to offer a de-tuned version of the 3.5 liter in the IS350. I personally don't think they will or should.
In fact, I'll add that I don't see the reason for the de-tuned 3 liter engine in BMW 325i. I, for one, would never pay for it. But BMW has a market for it. Just like Lexus feels they have a maket for the IS250. I think time will tell that both BMW and Lexus were right and I was wrong.
However, I will say that I do think they should offer a manual with the IS350. That would expand their market for the car. But again, Lexus is the one investing billions in the car; they are the ones who are betting on its success or failure.
Me not actually being in the market for a new car, notwithstanding.
I'd hoped that Toyota's compartmentalized distribution service, which looks to be organzied like the old carnie or mob syndicates, hadn't extended to the up-brand.
Here's to hoping they get their own Vince McMahon.
Can you order one like you want, or is it just like the Toyota ordering experience --
"Can I order it?"
"Yeah, what color you want?"
"Well, I wanted one with package B."
"What color you want?"
"Can I get package B?"
"You do not seem to be getting it, sir. What. Color. You. Want?"
Time will tell. But there's a chance the venerable 325 will soon be gone.
Is it the look? performance? fuel mileage? braking?
Thanks for your comments.
Drivers like me like a corresponding lower (to a point) tire sidewall for vastly improved and more predictable cornering abilities.
On account of the BMW- again we are talking about the AMERICAN market (I don't understand why that's so hard to understand) They sell the 325i/330i here as well as e46 coupes. You should direct your comparison at those models. Directing arguments at other markets in the world is about as useful as me comparing a Skyline GT-R V-Spec II Nur (R34) to a Toyota Supra TT neither which are sold here and are completely irrelevant to the current IS250 and it's lack of performance compared to the seling price and what the competition offers.
No need to personalize this discussion, its all about BMW v IS, so far until you start to inject your personality to the debate. Let's just keep it to the cars, as I have so far.
The IS250 you say is overpriced for what you get. But lets see what you get for $30,500 in the IS250/6MT. You get leather seats standard, moonroof standard, smart key standard, and a bunch of other stuff. All of which are options or not available on the outgoing IS300, and yet you claim this car is over priced ? Add these standard stuff to the 325i and see where the price of the *base* 325i begins.
Finally, the IS350 is very fast, the fastest in its class. For Lexus to be taken seriously in this compact sport-lux class, it must differentiate itself. BMW is all about handling, Lexus wants to be about speed and luxury, with some sport thrown in. Differentiation is a way to succeed in a tough market. Especially when you are going up against BMW's bread-and-butter class, the 3-series. The IS will succeed quite well. Within 18 months, expect an IS500 hi-po variant with 400HP output to go against either the 335i bi-turbo, or the new M3. Lexus does not want to yield ground to BMW any longer, and aiming straight for it, after disposing MB in the full-size lux class. Watch and see what happens.
Seeing as how Toyota refuses to build a 6MT IS350 due to "low projected demand", I'm not holding my breath that the company will build a 400hp IS500 with even lower demand.
LOL!
The rules of engagement change to fit the outcome!
Denny Clements spelled it out three years ago: BMW is the benchmark for Lexus, and the 3 is the target for the IS. If he hadn't made that so emphatically clear, there would be far less BMW discussion in here.
The outcome is correct: the IS is not a 3, and that's just fine; and we can rationalize the differences in any way we want to paint the IS as pretty a shade as can be, and yes, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks Willis, but at the end of the day, the IS isn't what it was heralded to be: a 3-killer.
Doesn't mean it's bad, doesn't mean it won't sell, doesn't mean in May I might not end up in one (white/cashmere 350 with sport package, thank you), but let's call a spade a spade, and not grovel before the altar of the big "L".
Wale
Lexus owner sans blinders and robes
Why would Lexus bring out a 2-door coupe in the LF-A with a V-10 powerplant ??? They mean business....
Some of you are simply stuck in one sentence about a 3-er competitor. That was not all Denny said, was it ?
I must have missed that one.
Q) Why doesn't Lexus offer a manual transmission in the IS 350? Any plans to do so?
A) The IS 250 is our core model, representing over 80 percent of sales. With this volume, we believe the IS 250 with manual transmission (M/T) will meet the needs for those consumers desiring a 6-speed manual and provides a very competitive value. The volume of M/T sales within the segment the IS 350 will compete is very small, and we do not forecast enough demand to warrant production of a M/T choice for the IS 350. If the market should change, we will, of course, consider a M/T for the IS 350.
This was never about BMW v. Lexus for me. I only mentioned them because they are considered the defacto "standard" in this class. They natural CAN demand a higher price. If you go back and read my very first post I mentioned that I drove the 330i, G35, TSX, A4 Quattro 2.0T to compare to both the IS250/350. The problem in your base price theory is I do want options. Everyone knows the base prices are decent, no one is disputing that, but the required option packages just to get common amenities like Xenon headlights are absolutely ridiculous. The same could be said when trying to get a firmer suspension setup ~ $3700... umm no thanks. Add to the fact that this is still a heavy 204hp car and this thing keep sounding worse. As I said I don't have a problem with the IS350 overall, it just needs a shot of personality (read. greater steering response and road feel, MT, sequential manual v. automatic, bolstered seats, and a firmer ride.) They really needed this car to not be boring and while the IS350 isn't totally boring I haven't been that unamused about that much horsepower since I drove an '05 GTO. It just doesn't have that untamed "sporty" feel. I guess you would have to try to push the car to know though. You shouldn't be driving an IS like an ES and I can barely tell the difference between a IS250 and an ES330. They are both somewhat boring although the IS is a bit more nimble.
I also agree Lexus has a personality. Their personality is reliability, a great sound system, luxury, but not speed. That's not their personality. I will respectfully disagree that Lexus is aiming for BMW in product. They may be in the same class. What they have produced is very good car, but it's more in line with a C Class in terms of driving whereas the G35 is more in line with a BMW. As far as an IS500 goes I will have to wait for Lexus to announce something like that. I'm not saying it'snot going to happen but I don't like to go on hearsay alone. I've seen the IS test mule pics around the net but most people are specualting on what's under the hood. It could just very well be the 4.6L or a 5L V8 who knows though.
Denny said the '06 GS would clearly show Lexus' devotion to injecting excitement and youthful appeal into the Lexus sedan lineup.
Denny said.
Denny got fired.
Some of us know a church by daylight. The car is what it is. That it is a good car, I believe in my soul of souls. That it has sales potential, likewise. That it will be pleasant enough to drive and own, I will speculate.
The car also ain't what it ain't, and no degree of rationale will change that.
To your own point, I don't think it needs to. To my point, why bother defending what doesn't require a defense?
Heck, I'd take the current IS 250 AWD if it had a manual. I really like the car as it is - I test drove it yesterday and it was the first car I have test driven recently that actually made me want to pull out the checkbook. The thing is, I got back into my TSX and realized how much more engaging it is to have the six-speed manual. I could easily accept the 204 hp if it had a slick trannie like the Acura.
By the way, anyone else notice what I thought was a very cheap looking clock in the IS? The old-school digital clock with the "H", "M" and ":00" buttons next to it seemed out of place with the rest of the up-scale interior. Minor gripe, I know.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2025 MB GLE450e - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
It should be noted that tires in a staggered set cannot be rotated, as you can't take the 245mm wide tires from the back and swap them with the 225mm wide tires in the front. It should also be noted that the summer tires are sticky and soft, because grip is what they're all about, and should be on a sport/lux sedan.
Be all and end all is that for a fairly passive driver, tire wear is going to be fairly rapid, while for a reasonably active driver, tire wear is going to simply blaze. I have a factory staggered set up on my IS300 SportCross, and I'm on my third set of rubber in three years at 29K miles (good for maybe 13K miles a set). Granted, I drive plenty of curves, which is why I love and bought the car in the first place, and my commute is a short romp through a canyon, but for folks used to 40K+ mile tires, the tire-wear warning label on the window sticker is there for a reason.
I'll happily burn through a set a year considering the enjoyment I get in return, and I heartily suggest the same for anyone else, but some may find their jaws on the tarmac when that first re-rubber comes up a lot faster than you thought it would!
:shades:
I'm on my third set of staggered 18s in my car. 1k a pop isn't so purdy.
By the way, what's your best guess on how many miles I can squeeze out of a set if 90% of my driving is on the highway?
Again it's not a bad car. In fact it's a very good car but they missed their targeted mark.
So should a manufacturer get the approval of the current buyers before upgrading cars for next year's buyers? I remember when the 02 Jetta 1.8Ts went to 180 hp (01s had 150 hp) and the 01 buyers whined. Uh, the manufacturer doesn't owe last year's buyers anything.
It's a bit different from say and upgrade of an engine that was around for 3+ years. Audi for instance introduced the 2005.5 A4 2.0T which was the same as the 2006 model. The difference is everyone expected an all new model soon and the 1.8T had been around for some time. I think it's somewhat justafiable for buyer's of an all new model to be a little angry for a 1 year old model to be redone with all new engines. The same shouldn't be said for people who buy the last year model of a impending car upgrade or even a mid-life upgrade (like say if I was to buy a e46 Coupe next March and the e92 is released in May or so or when the 3 series went from the 323 to 325/ 328 to 330.)
On replacement, I've priced decent sets out between roughly $800 and $1200. BGDC probably runs Michelin Pilots (eh? 'mon back!), which is a good rec, and I stand by Goodyear's Eagle F1 GS-D3, which I think is the ultimate rain tire out there and pretty impressive in the dry. Bridgestone S-03 is a great choice too.
One thing that makes me 'bout yak is when some shmoe brings his sport sedan into Costco for Turanzas because he can't stomach the cost of real rubber. Please, if that's something that even crosses anyone's mind out there, buy an ES instead!
I recall with dismay that one of our friends here noted that Dunlop Maxx is OEM for the IS, BTW. That would be the first thing to go. Day one. 8am. Sharp.
I am getting the 18's on my IS. What's the perfect tire for a road-noise-obsessed Californian who wont be cornering too hard and wants as much tread life as possible?
Affirmative on the 040s, except that my experience with grip disintegrated the second the wear indicator got touched. And yes, the were noisy puppies, lousy in the wet and not worth the replacement cost. How far are you into the Kumhos?
I cannot possibly say enough about the rain performance of the F1 Gs-D3s. This tire in the wet is everything a summer tire should be in the dry! I run it up about five pounds in summer to counter the sidewall, and I could not be happier overall. Great bargain when on sale too (every month)!
Check the surveys and read the reviews. Discount about half the tripe some people post who have no business writing about cars in the first place, then narrow your field. Great site for education, even if you buy somewhere else...