texasmerq, did you drive the IS at the Taste of Lexus in Houston? I *so* wanted to go but I was sick as a dog and couldn't make it...
Anyway, your review is great. Based on the specs, I've been having trouble figuring out why anyone would buy the IS. The 250 seems really underpowered for a $30K+ "sports" sedan (I've seen 0-60 in 8.3 published, which is HORRIFIC for that kind of money/class of car, but sounds about right for the power-to-weight ratio). The 350 is much more appealing spec-wise, but WHY NO STICK? And a little pricey to boot. The G35 certainly looks like the better option from where I sit.
No I was scheduled to go at first but hen I found out earlier last week I had to work that weekend out of town. I drove the IS Monday at Lexus of San Antonio actually. It would be impossible to deal with them now anyway as it's the only Lexus dealer until you go to Austin or the 3 or so in Houston. I wanted to go to the Taste of Lexus too but I think I got a bit of a better test drive on Monday. One of the things that bothered me and I'm surprised no one mentioned it is how Lexus has the V8 version of the GS' competition of every car except the 5 series. Rightfully they should compare the GS430 against the 545/550 especially since they use the E500 to compare.
Was the 3.5L and the 4.6L delayed in the GS by choice or because they both weren't ready for Lexus yet? I'm just curious because I would feel highly cheated if I bought a 2006 model only for both engines to be upgraded for the 2007 model year.
Partly true... Only the 4.6L motor remains to be fully completed, but the 3.5L debuted in Japan's GS350 back in the spring, and here in the US in the IS350.
I would feel highly cheated if I bought a 2006 model only for both engines to be upgraded for the 2007 model year.
Only if you are a HP-hog... The GS350 gets here next year, and the GS460 may wait awhile until its LS version is released next summer. But expect the current motors in the GS to upgrade within a couple years from now. The GS may ultimately have four models - 300 (245HP), 350 (310HP), 450h (350HP) and 460 (360HP). That should boost its sales against the 5-series, E-class, and the A6.
While that may be true it would seem to make more sense if they only had 3 choices for the power plant GS300, GS350, and the GS450h if those horsepower figures are to be believed. The GS450h should have about equal power to a GS460, assuming the power figures are true, with the benefit of better fuel economy. I just couldn't see where a proposed GS460 would make sense if those models and the figures are right. OTOH why didn't Lexus wait on the 3.5L engine for the GS? That makes logical sense and they could increase sales and profit by offering 1 engine more powerful than both of the current ones.
blueguydotcom, I've heard the rumors about a "turbo-3" too and hope they're true. And I definitely hope the BMW 325i is gone. It's not so much that I think the 325i is underpowered -- although, for me, both it and the IS250 are -- but that BMW seems to have gone out of their way to produced a lower powered automobile. You can't tell me that the price difference between the two engines is $5,700 MSRP: they're the same engine!
If BMW wanted to lower the entry proce for the 3-series, all they needed to do was have a decontented 330i. :mad:
Sorry but just reading the "reviews" and I must say to everyone, drive it for yourself.
Actually, I think we all agree on the relative faults of the Lexus compared to the competition, primarily the BMW 3-series, how each individual "trades them off" is something we each can only do for ourselves.
For example, I think the handling and steering feel of the IS350 is good but not great and definitely not equal to the BMW 330i. However, the acceleration, both standing-start and mid-range, of the IS350 is better. I think most people on this board would agree with both statements. The question is, however, do the strengths in one area make up for the deficiencies in other areas?
That's something only each of us can answer for themselves.
As for tires, I sware by Pirelli PZero Nero M+S as an all-weather tire. They are simply the best all-around tires I have ever come across. Living where I do, I get enough inclement weather for all-season tires but not enough for winter tires: that and when the weather get's really bad I drive an SUV. In fact, if I do get the Lexus IS350 -- which I think I will -- I will probably trade out the OEM tire for the Pirelli's.
Again, it's all about priority. A good choice for one person isn't necessary good for another. And forcing it down someone else's throat won't help either. So, relax people. Enjoy the choices that we have, and the freedom to choose them.
And who ever suggested that dealer should charge fees for test drives...........get a grip!! Next thing we'll know, we get charged for trying on a pair of pants. :sick:
The question is, however, do the strengths in one area make up for the deficiencies in other areas? I don't think that strategy would work for sportscar fanatic (in a good sense) like BGDC. :P
Can some tell me how much the new IS250s are better than the last year's IS300?
I think IS250 costing more than the TSX is reasonable. But I don't know much about the IS250 to feel that it is worth more than the 3.0 L driven IS300.
You can't tell me that the price difference between the two engines is $5,700 MSRP: they're the same engine!
It's not. The 330i comes standard with memory seats, larger rims, tighter suspension, xenon headlights, larger brakes, logic 7 stereo, auto headlighters/wipers, obc. You're paying 2k for the bigger engine. The rest is content stuff. When I map out a 325i v. 330i via ED the price difference is about 2-3k after I add memory seats and xenons. At that point, just for the power, rims and brakes I see a clear reason to bounce to the 330i.
The IS250/350 has a massive chasm too and I don't see much of change between the two beyond VDIM (useless) and the big engine. Is there other content that benefits the driver on the 350 standard that isn't on the 250?
I agree that it's reasonable for an IS250 to be priced higher than the TSX. I would say a 5K premium fully loaded or at least with sport package, Nav/ ML would be fair. The 10K premium it currently commands over a TSX is a bit excessive to ME for an about equally performing vehicle. To each their own though.
Do you get light snow occasionally, newcars? Or sleet and such?
There are definitely locales where an all-season makes life easier, and it sure sounds like you're in one, but I know folks who are faced with nothing more than regular heavy rain come winter and still opt for AS tires. With three of the top five-rated max performance summer tires also top-rated as rain tires, I think they are really cheating themselves out of a whole lot of enjoyment from their rubber.
Those transitional regions like your aside, I'd say the AS tire is often the worst of both worlds. A fraction of the traction (poet and don't know it) of a summer tire, and zip of the grip of a snow tire!
Of course, again, my own priorities color my perceptions, but an awful lot of people buy AS tires for rain without realizing that they get no safety benefit over a good performance tire and may be getting far less enjoyment out of the car than they might.
blueguydotcom, that's sort of my point. If you just want the better engine in the BMW (notice I did not say "bigger") you have to pay nearly $6,000 more and get a bunch of options that you might not want. Instead, I think BMW should have foregone the 325i and simply offered a de-contented 330i.
And I actually agree with you about the differences between the IS250 and IS350. Your paying a lot of money for a bigger and better engine and VDIM (which, surprisingly to you perhaps, I'm not a big fan of either). But at least the engines in the IS250 and IS350 are different. And I do think that is a big difference.
As for me, as I have stated before, I am only interested in the BMW 330i and the IS350 (at least among the cars we are discussing here). I personally have little use for either the Lexus IS250 or the BMW 325i. But to each their own.
My area -- Washington, DC area -- gets snow (and sleet and such) just enough so that I'm leery of keeping on summer tires year round but not quite enough that I go through the bother of putting on winter tires. Besides, I will put the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S's up against 95% of the summer tires out there any day.
But I will add that as a general rule, I would recommend summer tires for the summer and winter tires for the winter. It just that me and my situation, I think the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S's year round are the best option.
And I actually agree with you about the differences between the IS250 and IS350. Your paying a lot of money for a bigger and better engine and VDIM (which, surprisingly to you perhaps, I'm not a big fan of either). But at least the engines in the IS250 and IS350 are different. And I do think that is a big difference.
I don't understand why VDIM is a useless thing, quoting BGDC here. Why is safety not important to a driver ? Is the ability for a car to try to make you safe when you do stupid things like driving too fast, taking the corner too fast, or driving on a freeway like you are on a race track, a bad thing ? I mean, don't you guys value your lives, or is it sufficient to drive from point A to point B regardless of how you get there ???? I guess I may never understand this one-track mind of car enthusiasts....
Personally, I think it's more a case of I don't want something I don't need and definitely don't want to pay for it if I don't want it.
But to get to the real kernel here, oac, if Toyota had simply provided an override switch and left it up to us, there would be no discussion here. Matter of fact, I'd guarantee that!
Ah, Wale_ makes sense for an overide switch... but I hear those who simply say it is useless. These are two different things you know.
So traction control, stability control and ABS braking force all managed by a central OBC is a bad thing, eh ? Why on earth do car companies think we need these nannies anyway ? Is it because of legalities, or features that improve/enhance the driving experience ?
I don't understand why VDIM is a useless thing, quoting BGDC here. Why is safety not important to a driver ? Is the ability for a car to try to make you safe
I grew up driving RWD vehicles - Camaro Z28s, Miatas, Mustang GTs, etc and often on 100s of acres of private property. My dad owns 5 cars and all of them are RWD. Right now he's building a Factory Five Cobra (he's in his 60s and still loves cars). What a RWD car will do when pressed to hard, is not a mystery to me.
I mean, don't you guys value your lives, or is it sufficient to drive from point A to point B regardless of how you get there ???? I guess I may never understand this one-track mind of car enthusiasts....
Value my life? You make it sound like I'd be in grave danger in a RWD car without an electronic nanny. People got along without stability and traction control systems in cars for over 90 years. All the cars I learned to drive - starting at age 10 - lacked stability control, traction control, dsc, vdim, abs, airbags, etc. Many of the cars had lap belts!
And no it's not sufficient to just go from point A to point B. Even when I bought a commuter car for a job I spent weeks looking. The car I ended up buying, a 2003 Protege ES, exhibitted handling traits and roadfeel far beyond anything else in that price range/class. Sure 85% of my drive to work was on the freeway but some of those backroads in Vista/Escondido/San Marcos are twisty, hilly, tree-lined gases.
So traction control, stability control and ABS braking force all managed by a central OBC is a bad thing, eh ?
ABS is a fine thing, IMHO because I still get to decide when the car brakes.
Why on earth do car companies think we need these nannies anyway ? Is it because of legalities, or features that improve/enhance the driving experience ?
You already answered this by flipping out over me calling VDIM useless. The marketing people have convinced you that feature is important. And for some people, it probably is. For people raised on FWD cars driving a RWD car with power can be quite dangerous. Heck I worked with a guy who drove an e36 3 series and he came into the office one rainy day freaked out. Why? He fishtailed and had no idea what to do. For him a stability/traction control system is imperative.
Remember the old Porsches? A buddy in high school jacked up his dad's turbo 911 one night illicitly joyriding. He had no concept of how to negotiate a corner in that car. Today that corner wouldn't be an issue as Porsche's PSM would kick in and tame the car before the back wheel met a curb in a most unpleasant and axle bending fashion.
Yep, some manufactures have an off/kill switch for partially disabling control systems. A few even allow a backdoor for totally disabling the traction/stability control systems.
Well, I understand BGDC's viewpoint. In all but the most severe of conditions, a management system like that hinders my enjoyment rather than helps. I can count the days of conditions like that in my driving calendar on one finger if at all. So for me, it's useless as well.
In the context of a car with sporting pretense, the inability to turn the system off is the killer, not the system itself so much.
I think it's a plus for RWD sales in many areas of the country that have weather like newcar's and worse, and are used to thinking they're safer with FWD. I think it defers liability and makes underwriters happy, and I think it's cheaper to wire a car one way for all markets.
When I drove a G35 I would always have the stability control turned off, unless it was winter or raining (though it would always reset back to “on” when the car was started)
Powering through a corner and have the rear end wing out a foot can be very “fulfilling” not that I’m going to paint a “01” on the side of my car and go “Yee haw”. This enjoyment doesn’t come at the school crossing or down at the 7-Eleven, but on clear rural/country roads.
If I was stuck in urban/city driving all the time I wouldn’t consider either of the cars being discussed here I’d go for a Jetta TDI or something.
I think BDGC hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't personally go so far as to call it useless as traction control has it's place on cars for safety, but it's the level at which VDIM intrudes on the driver. Most people are responsible enough to speed in mostly familiar areas that they know or for the people who autocross around a track. If any other reason to avoid speed traps. OTOH most people who buy these cars are usually careful enough to know their own driving ability and don't try crazy manuevers they know they can't accomplish.
A perfect case was in my test drive the one turn I took where VDIM began braking the car for me at 72mph in an IS350 (I normally take it at around 65mph in my FWD Chevy.) I would really like to believe that a 300hp sports sedan would be able to take that sweeping turn at more than speed than that.
Most of the time, I simply don't need it. Yes, I'm that good of a driver. And more often does a system like that inhibit my fun than it saves my life. I will admit and say that I don't mind it on the car as long as there is a "kill" switch for it. It's the fact that on the Lexus I can't turn it off that I don't like.
But I'll also admit and say that in most daily situations, I probably won't notice it one way or the other.
Oh heck, even if it's not about lining up the butt, just that first slight feeling of drift as you hold the edge; last thing I want is the nanny coming on and lights on my dash and such. Talk about a cold shower!
"But I'll also admit and say that in most daily situations, I probably won't notice it one way or the other..."
Undeniably true. For most of us I'll warrant. But it's those special situations that count!
The trac alone on my car comes on at the least opportune moments, and certainly well within the limits of safety, which makes it such an annoyance that I turn it off first thing after I buckle in.
Regarding the value of VDIM and is it worth the extra cost, I would say much depends on the individual car. Some are more progressive in feel and provide more warning that you are about to lose traction that others. I have not driven the IS yet but I suspect that this would be the case. I clearly recall the Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX (all wheel drive) that I bought new in 1990. Great acceleration and handling for the time and price you paid, but it had a nasty tendency to break loose when you pushed it too hard around turns. I actually had this happen to me twice (slow learner and much younger) when taking cloverleafs too aggressively and did 180's each time. I was fortunately able to keep it on the pavement, but clearly with that car the VDIM might have helped me avoid the embarrassment (and potential injury). This hasn't happened to me before or since with cars like an RX-7, Audi A4 and Allroad, or my current ride, an FX45 - the last three of which have been AWD. With the IS I am assuming that even without the VDIM the car would provide at least some measure of feedback that the tires were about to break loose, and that you better back off.
So while from personal experience I do appreciate the value of VDIM, I agree that an on-off switch would be ideal, and even then it should be something that's not bundled in an expensive option package for those who THINK they may never need it.
My wife's RX330 is about due for servicing so when I take it in I do plan to take a good look at the IS and maybe take it out for a test drive. I'm certainly one who finds the look of the car to be very attractive, and it's the first Lexus sedan that I'm really curious about. Also I can't wait to try to squeeze into that back seat!
Invoice Pricing for IS350 is also posted on Edmunds, but you have to llok under sedans priced between "35k-45k" is $31,186. Me post earlier was incorect for IS250 is $27,419 for Auto.
First, I’m a BMW guy at heart, but I have been VERY open-minded in my hunt for a successor. I have thoroughly researched/driven the Acura TL (price, MT, good looks, fun, techie, but FWD stinks and questionable durability issues), the Infiniti M35/45 (good looks, ALL the toys, room, power, but I didn't like the AT or driving dynamics[awkward and disconcerting]), Mercedes and Audi have nothing that interests me, so in the end I was back to my beloved BMW. However, I once considered the IS300, so I wanted to wait and see what Lexus created before I made any decisions not to mention my Dad worships at the Lexus altar, so I had to give them a shot. I'll focus on the IS in this forum and will compare where appropriate...sorry if this is too long, but I wanted to be thorough.
EXTERIOR: I like it. A nice classy look that’s different, but evolutionary from the IS300 (drop nose, stumpy butt, small dimensions, chronograph-inspired dials). Straight on the IS is aggressive and, dare I say, sexy. I love the bulging hood that tapers back along the beltline. The front fenders are flared just enough, while the rear finish the wide, nicely proportioned stance. The roof line rakes back nice and low, finishing off at the flared tail (high tail made it a bit hard to back up, but with the nav, you have a camera). The doors seem a bit too high without anything to break up the clean sheet metal, but that's purely an aesthetic, personal thing for me. The tail lights finish the crease, that started at the nose, very nicely...you don't really appreciate it until in person. The Matador Red Mica is gorgeous, but not my cup of tea. IMHO the spoiler is an absolute must, otherwise the tail looks a bit too stumpy. The view from straight back is a bit too narrow and tall for my taste, but not bad. Overall, the wheelbase seems to be plenty long, but it isn't fully realized inside. The wheel styles are nice, but somewhat forget table. Assessment = a classy, sporty design with few styling quirks/miscues a winner.
INTERIOR: Once again I like it. The "boy toy" look of the 300's chronograph was too much, but they've kept the theme, updated it, classed it up nicely. The materials, of course, are flawless, as long as they are durable. The stack without the Nav looks good, but I prefer it with the system. Unlike BMWs, the stereo and HVAC functions were not washed out by my UV-rated shades. I like the small bit of wood trim, but prefer the metallic finish in sport package. The seats were comfortable and supportive. This is one area I feel that they trumped BMW. I'm 6'1"/205lbs and the 330i's sport seats are too confining, unnecessarily so, on my sides, while not providing much more lateral support than the IS. I wish the seats had a tilt feature versus just up and down, but I found a way to make it all work. I think it’s an absolute must to have the tilt and telescopic found in the Luxury or Sport packages...I can't believe it's not standard on all models. I like one touch windows, but I had to fight them when I wanted them to stop anywhere other than full up/down; it can easily be done once you learn to pull just a slight detent less than all out...it was more frustrating than it should have been. The sunroof functions were easy and rewarding, and my head didn't touch it. I thought that teh cool rake of the windshield intruded a bit towards my head inside, but it wasn't a big factor. There was enough leg room and the well was appropriate for the segment. If I do decide to go with the 330i, you can bet i-drive will stay back in Munich, but if I head over to Lexus the 5th Gen Nav system is coming with me! The basic stereo was good, and I can't imagine how AWESOME the ML set-up is. Now, to the biggest downfall of the IS and what may very well cost it teh chance to reside in my garage...the back seat. I liked what someone said before Lexus should have gone ahead and made the IS a coupe, a PERFECT assessment! I do have a tendency to push my seat back fairly far, but I was still able to get behind the seat easily in the 330i. If I sat up straighter, I think my hair/head would have touched the headliner due to the sunroof. I couldn't get behind the seat in the IS at all! Even my 6 yr old's shoes were touching the back on the seat. I think they did a POOR job of utilizing the interior space. Now, on the other hand, I don't care too much about the backseat because I don't travel with too many other folks in the car with me I'm driving, so who cares. However, when I get my next car, I'm going to want to drive it ALL the time/everywhere for that matter. Assessment = a very nice interior if you ignore the back seat situation, just OK if you don’t....passes the grade, but not necessarily a winner.
DRIVING: I think they made a HUGE mistake by only offering the MT in the 250, the version they think they'll sell the most of, and not the 350. They have produced an impressive transmission, but like some of you, I like to be immersed in the driving experience. I do have to admit that I had some fun with the F1 style paddles. I REALLY "got on it" around a corner, shifting gears and ripping up the pavement all as one cohesive unit a few times...BIG FUN!!! I did sense the car trying to keep me in line, but it wasn't too much interference. As a whole, I usually argue that the BMW makes you part of the driving experience, while Lexus removes you from it...I think the 330i still does a better job of doing so, but the IS is much better than I thought it would be. I read about the IS' skittishness on wet pavement, but I’ll have to take them both back out, back-to-back, in one of those days. The IS did remove me from the road more than the Bimmer, but not near as much as I expected based on all the forums I read. I felt connected, particularly when I used the paddles for shifts, while feeling the road just enough. I like the fact that the transmission will let you push the revs to the limit, but jumps in at redline before you screw things up. I often switched back to the manual function on the AT stick, just because I'm used to having my hand down there and it shifted just as well. I LOVE MTs, that's all there is too it, but this is the nicest automatic set up I’ve come across better than that offered by BMW. The car handled well, with enough road feel and little or no hop when “getting on it.” It’s also fast as sin! I hit the highway and was blasting along with endless amounts of engine left to go .potential for many tickets in the future. Assessment = Much more fun than I expected. Fun to drive, comfortable, powerful power and an impressive automatic...a winner, but not quite aimed at the same bullseye, but it is the same target, as BMW.
COST: I’m not going to get into the [non-permissible content removed]-for-tat that usually goes on in these forums, but here’s how I see it. An loaded IS350 compared to a loaded 330i/Ci, will be roughly the same (mid-40s), with a few more/user-friendly toys
I too have to agree that what you told us (well in my case me!) had a more exact understanding on what it was like driving one and seeing one. I'd too would like to drive by to my Lexus Dealership and test it out but i never have time to. Maybe this weekend (I hope) by the way would you considered having the tires changed? and what would you think if they offered a convertible version for the IS 350? Since I am like ready to purchase the 350 in a few months (like May)! Since im still in high school! Thanks.
Nice, open-minded evaluation by a BMW-ophile. I'm going in this weekend for a spin in an IS350, unfortunately, a non-sport equipped version. I should have my own personal observation then.
I will still say this: an IS350 with Nav/ML as the only option can be had for under $40K, and that car with 325HP (306HP by new SAE rating) is a mighty car to own and drive. Where else would you get a 300+HP car for under $40K ??? Does the TL or G or 330i have a dual vvt-i with direct injection ? Nope. We are talking state-of-the-art engine here, backed up with the legendary Lexus reliability, all in a sleek new skin.
As to lack of an MT, if there are that many MT requests Lexus will put one in, maybe MY2007, if demand is that high. But, let's face it, 99% of drivers want a slush box. And with the F1-like paddle shifter, you can enjoy the best of all worlds...And the VDIM is not as aggressive as some of you would like us to believe. Personally, I want all the gizmos in my car... This is the 21st century afterall, not 19th Century where some would like it to be...the old way
And with the F1-like paddle shifter, you can enjoy the best of all worlds...
Numerous times at 50-60 mph I tried to drop from 5/6th to 3rd and I felt the system took forever and a day to get down to 3rd. All the people complimenting the automanual feature, did you attempt a multiple click downshift?
I ask as this is common practice for me on the freeway or even around town.
On account of the BMW- again we are talking about the AMERICAN market (I don't understand why that's so hard to understand) They sell the 325i/330i here as well as e46 coupes. You should direct your comparison at those models. Directing arguments at other markets in the world is about as useful as me comparing a Skyline GT-R V-Spec II Nur (R34) to a Toyota Supra TT neither which are sold here and are completely irrelevant to the current IS250 and it's lack of performance compared to the seling price and what the competition offers.
Does it occur to you that not everyone on this board live in the U.S.? Actually, I live in Canada, where Bimmer 323 is offered.
I fully agree that customers will be better served if more car body/engine/equipment combos are offered. I just tried to state that Lexus obviously made more money by limiting the total combo number.
The thing with Lexus is that it tries to lead the market, not just following it. For example, the long term trend is that cars of the future will all be CVT automatic because at that time software control simply beats human control. Likewise, cars will use hybrid or fuel-cell or superconductor to drive by electric motor. Although the technology is not mature yet. I can see some of the manufactures (like Lexus, MB) are pushing consumers that direction (consider the automatic in 350 and AMGs).
The current E-shift is a bit slow, but not that slow. Hmmm...
The only time I notice sluggishness heading down the row is when the selected lower gear is at the upper end of the revs for that gear. So unless you were asking for just about redline in 3rd, it should have been not-quite-as-quick-as-SMG, but with a slightly annoying softness (as opposed to authority).
It's not great that way anyhow. Where it's useful is holding a lower gear as opposed to hunting, and I use it for modest compression braking.
Coming from a manual I expected automanual to be a bit slow. The 2-3 down shifts though seemed to take a long time so I'm just curious if I'm the only one who double and triple clicked the downshift button/lever/plastic thingie and found it to take a long time.
At 60 mph, a drop to 3rd should be the middle of the rev range - it's gotta be good to 85-90 mph.
Haven't found anything as intoxicating as the instant shifts on the DSG though. My god that's heavenly..
ICan get the 330i just the way I want it. Don't want iDrive, don't order it.
BMW’s packages are more reasonable. Now if you are insistent on ordering everything you’re in Mid to high 40's.
Difference is I can stay in high 30's ordering the vehicle the way I want. I can’t with The IS 350.
The IS 350 makes you take packages of 6-7K to get items you want along with items you might not need. So you're stuck Mid 40's unless you take next to nothing.
That is the true difference, and along with the driving experience, is still too much for me to go with Lexus. I do agree, this IS 350 has narrowed difference much better than in the past, now if they would only pick and choose items, a la carte, and not force these expensive packages down our throats, the gap will then be almost negligible..
I just went through this exercise with a Lexus salesperson, who tried to compare the two.
He priced out his IS 350, then priced out online a BMW equivalent, according to him, with options I didn’t want.
I removed some items, and he couldn’t remove them from his package, so the BMW that I put together was 4K under his Lexus.!!!!
True, CVT may be better but people will still want a manual. for them autos just take the fun out of driving. Lexus will need to put a 6 spd manual in their 350. I'm sure they've lost sales due to the lack of a manual. They also need to enable a shut off of the stability control just to please journalists. Journalists can help sell cars, and right now one of the biggest things holding them back from rating the 350 above a BMW is that the system "interferes too much while driving". Even though this may not be true, they will need to sell the car to the journalists so that they in turn can sell the cars to the public with their reviews.
Globe and mail (globeandmail.com) had a review of the IS today in their auto section. Lexus PR guy said they expect to sell 2500 IS in Canada this year, as compared to 400 last year. It is a beautiful car (nices on the road?) , but given the brutal package prices (base car has16" wheels and no sunrooof), I cannot see how they are going to get there. I realize that 1st year sales are usually good relative to the old model, but this is >6x as many sales as last year.
Where else would you get a 300+HP car for under $40K ???
Impala 300+ hp under 30K. Chrysler 300C (hemi) 33K MSRP, Infiniti G35 6M MSRP 31K (ok that was 298hp but close), Nissan 350Z 28K+ Volvo S60R 38K Subaru WRX Ti 32K Pontiac GTO 400hp 32K
Probably a few more Though not all up the Lexus quality/standards but the hp is there.
I would like to wait and see where the G35 and Z lie according to SAE standards before putting them there in that spot. Ok.... Impala SS with 300-some odd horsepower and FWD... blekh. Not to mention its redesign looks so cookie-cutterish. Who is "designing" cars (if you can call it that) for GM nowadays. The new Chevy products are hurtin bigtime. Epica looks so Korean for some reason.
I loved the interior of the IS 250AWD, it feels safe and comfortable. The leather seats are wonderfull, simply no competition to any other car I have driven. The car looks expensive from the inside and the outside.
The handling of the IS 250AWD was good. The suspension was great, and very comfortable. There was very little body roll. The brakes were great and there was very little nose dive.
Finally, probably the only thing I didnt like was the engine. No, it is NOT underpowered overall. But at the beginning before the power kicks in the engine feels slow and lazy. After you speed up the engine is very smooth and powerful. I was very satisfied
I also test drove the 325i on the same day, but I am not going to post that review in here.
P.S even the BMW salesguy said that Lexus did a good job with the IS.
What is the big deal about BMW using the "same engines" in the 325 and 330? If you think about it, Lexus/Toyota and Infiniti/Nissan are doing the EXACT same thing, just under different names! The ES330 has the SAME engine as a Camry, with slightly different outputs, but charging a premium over the Toyota. Look at how many models the Nissan empire is using their VQ engine. I understand Lexus is more prestigious blah blah blah, but just pointing out that BMW isn't the only one playing this game. What's next? People are going to complain that a lesser model shares the same turn signal stalk as the more expensive counterpart. It's all just part of companies trying to share common parts and lowering costs.
You completely miss the point, harrybush00. The difference between the Lexus/Toyota and Infiniti/Nissan examples you gave is that they are, at least, different models with different options, interiors and even driving characteristics. You can argue that the difference between the models is not that great -- and, truth be known, I often do -- but at least they are still different models. But BMW took the exact same engine in the exact same modeland de-tuned it. Why?
Note that no one is complaining that the BMW 330i and 530i have the same engine.
OAC have you driven the IS350 yet or will this be your first drive?
As for the AT it's not the same as a sequential manual in performance. I have to second BGDC assessment of the Audi DSG. It's as smooth as an AT in Drive but you will know it's no automatic when you shift through several gears quickly. The SMG 2 in the M3 is nice also although quite a bit rougher than the DSG. It will jerk you around sometimes during shifting on the quickest settings.
As for the engine if I'm not mistaken the BMW 3L has direct injection also.
Comments
Anyway, your review is great. Based on the specs, I've been having trouble figuring out why anyone would buy the IS. The 250 seems really underpowered for a $30K+ "sports" sedan (I've seen 0-60 in 8.3 published, which is HORRIFIC for that kind of money/class of car, but sounds about right for the power-to-weight ratio). The 350 is much more appealing spec-wise, but WHY NO STICK? And a little pricey to boot. The G35 certainly looks like the better option from where I sit.
Partly true... Only the 4.6L motor remains to be fully completed, but the 3.5L debuted in Japan's GS350 back in the spring, and here in the US in the IS350.
I would feel highly cheated if I bought a 2006 model only for both engines to be upgraded for the 2007 model year.
Only if you are a HP-hog... The GS350 gets here next year, and the GS460 may wait awhile until its LS version is released next summer. But expect the current motors in the GS to upgrade within a couple years from now. The GS may ultimately have four models - 300 (245HP), 350 (310HP), 450h (350HP) and 460 (360HP). That should boost its sales against the 5-series, E-class, and the A6.
If BMW wanted to lower the entry proce for the 3-series, all they needed to do was have a decontented 330i.
:mad:
Actually, I think we all agree on the relative faults of the Lexus compared to the competition, primarily the BMW 3-series, how each individual "trades them off" is something we each can only do for ourselves.
For example, I think the handling and steering feel of the IS350 is good but not great and definitely not equal to the BMW 330i. However, the acceleration, both standing-start and mid-range, of the IS350 is better. I think most people on this board would agree with both statements. The question is, however, do the strengths in one area make up for the deficiencies in other areas?
That's something only each of us can answer for themselves.
As for tires, I sware by Pirelli PZero Nero M+S as an all-weather tire. They are simply the best all-around tires I have ever come across. Living where I do, I get enough inclement weather for all-season tires but not enough for winter tires: that and when the weather get's really bad I drive an SUV. In fact, if I do get the Lexus IS350 -- which I think I will -- I will probably trade out the OEM tire for the Pirelli's.
And who ever suggested that dealer should charge fees for test drives...........get a grip!! Next thing we'll know, we get charged for trying on a pair of pants. :sick:
The question is, however, do the strengths in one area make up for the deficiencies in other areas? I don't think that strategy would work for sportscar fanatic (in a good sense) like BGDC. :P
Can some tell me how much the new IS250s are better than the last year's IS300?
I think IS250 costing more than the TSX is reasonable. But I don't know much about the IS250 to feel that it is worth more than the 3.0 L driven IS300.
Thanks.
It's not. The 330i comes standard with memory seats, larger rims, tighter suspension, xenon headlights, larger brakes, logic 7 stereo, auto headlighters/wipers, obc. You're paying 2k for the bigger engine. The rest is content stuff. When I map out a 325i v. 330i via ED the price difference is about 2-3k after I add memory seats and xenons. At that point, just for the power, rims and brakes I see a clear reason to bounce to the 330i.
The IS250/350 has a massive chasm too and I don't see much of change between the two beyond VDIM (useless) and the big engine. Is there other content that benefits the driver on the 350 standard that isn't on the 250?
There are definitely locales where an all-season makes life easier, and it sure sounds like you're in one, but I know folks who are faced with nothing more than regular heavy rain come winter and still opt for AS tires. With three of the top five-rated max performance summer tires also top-rated as rain tires, I think they are really cheating themselves out of a whole lot of enjoyment from their rubber.
Those transitional regions like your aside, I'd say the AS tire is often the worst of both worlds. A fraction of the traction (poet and don't know it) of a summer tire, and zip of the grip of a snow tire!
Of course, again, my own priorities color my perceptions, but an awful lot of people buy AS tires for rain without realizing that they get no safety benefit over a good performance tire and may be getting far less enjoyment out of the car than they might.
And I actually agree with you about the differences between the IS250 and IS350. Your paying a lot of money for a bigger and better engine and VDIM (which, surprisingly to you perhaps, I'm not a big fan of either). But at least the engines in the IS250 and IS350 are different. And I do think that is a big difference.
As for me, as I have stated before, I am only interested in the BMW 330i and the IS350 (at least among the cars we are discussing here). I personally have little use for either the Lexus IS250 or the BMW 325i. But to each their own.
But I will add that as a general rule, I would recommend summer tires for the summer and winter tires for the winter. It just that me and my situation, I think the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S's year round are the best option.
I don't understand why VDIM is a useless thing, quoting BGDC here. Why is safety not important to a driver ? Is the ability for a car to try to make you safe when you do stupid things like driving too fast, taking the corner too fast, or driving on a freeway like you are on a race track, a bad thing ? I mean, don't you guys value your lives, or is it sufficient to drive from point A to point B regardless of how you get there ???? I guess I may never understand this one-track mind of car enthusiasts....
But to get to the real kernel here, oac, if Toyota had simply provided an override switch and left it up to us, there would be no discussion here. Matter of fact, I'd guarantee that!
So traction control, stability control and ABS braking force all managed by a central OBC is a bad thing, eh ? Why on earth do car companies think we need these nannies anyway ? Is it because of legalities, or features that improve/enhance the driving experience ?
I grew up driving RWD vehicles - Camaro Z28s, Miatas, Mustang GTs, etc and often on 100s of acres of private property. My dad owns 5 cars and all of them are RWD. Right now he's building a Factory Five Cobra (he's in his 60s and still loves cars). What a RWD car will do when pressed to hard, is not a mystery to me.
I mean, don't you guys value your lives, or is it sufficient to drive from point A to point B regardless of how you get there ???? I guess I may never understand this one-track mind of car enthusiasts....
Value my life? You make it sound like I'd be in grave danger in a RWD car without an electronic nanny. People got along without stability and traction control systems in cars for over 90 years. All the cars I learned to drive - starting at age 10 - lacked stability control, traction control, dsc, vdim, abs, airbags, etc. Many of the cars had lap belts!
And no it's not sufficient to just go from point A to point B. Even when I bought a commuter car for a job I spent weeks looking. The car I ended up buying, a 2003 Protege ES, exhibitted handling traits and roadfeel far beyond anything else in that price range/class. Sure 85% of my drive to work was on the freeway but some of those backroads in Vista/Escondido/San Marcos are twisty, hilly, tree-lined gases.
ABS is a fine thing, IMHO because I still get to decide when the car brakes.
Why on earth do car companies think we need these nannies anyway ? Is it because of legalities, or features that improve/enhance the driving experience ?
You already answered this by flipping out over me calling VDIM useless. The marketing people have convinced you that feature is important. And for some people, it probably is. For people raised on FWD cars driving a RWD car with power can be quite dangerous. Heck I worked with a guy who drove an e36 3 series and he came into the office one rainy day freaked out. Why? He fishtailed and had no idea what to do. For him a stability/traction control system is imperative.
Remember the old Porsches? A buddy in high school jacked up his dad's turbo 911 one night illicitly joyriding. He had no concept of how to negotiate a corner in that car. Today that corner wouldn't be an issue as Porsche's PSM would kick in and tame the car before the back wheel met a curb in a most unpleasant and axle bending fashion.
In the context of a car with sporting pretense, the inability to turn the system off is the killer, not the system itself so much.
I think it's a plus for RWD sales in many areas of the country that have weather like newcar's and worse, and are used to thinking they're safer with FWD. I think it defers liability and makes underwriters happy, and I think it's cheaper to wire a car one way for all markets.
Kill switch. That's all we need here.
When I drove a G35 I would always have the stability control turned off, unless it was winter or raining (though it would always reset back to “on” when the car was started)
Powering through a corner and have the rear end wing out a foot can be very “fulfilling” not that I’m going to paint a “01” on the side of my car and go “Yee haw”. This enjoyment doesn’t come at the school crossing or down at the 7-Eleven, but on clear rural/country roads.
If I was stuck in urban/city driving all the time I wouldn’t consider either of the cars being discussed here I’d go for a Jetta TDI or something.
At least give the option to turn it off.
A perfect case was in my test drive the one turn I took where VDIM began braking the car for me at 72mph in an IS350 (I normally take it at around 65mph in my FWD Chevy.) I would really like to believe that a 300hp sports sedan would be able to take that sweeping turn at more than speed than that.
Most of the time, I simply don't need it. Yes, I'm that good of a driver. And more often does a system like that inhibit my fun than it saves my life. I will admit and say that I don't mind it on the car as long as there is a "kill" switch for it. It's the fact that on the Lexus I can't turn it off that I don't like.
But I'll also admit and say that in most daily situations, I probably won't notice it one way or the other.
Undeniably true. For most of us I'll warrant. But it's those special situations that count!
The trac alone on my car comes on at the least opportune moments, and certainly well within the limits of safety, which makes it such an annoyance that I turn it off first thing after I buckle in.
So while from personal experience I do appreciate the value of VDIM, I agree that an on-off switch would be ideal, and even then it should be something that's not bundled in an expensive option package for those who THINK they may never need it.
My wife's RX330 is about due for servicing so when I take it in I do plan to take a good look at the IS and maybe take it out for a test drive. I'm certainly one who finds the look of the car to be very attractive, and it's the first Lexus sedan that I'm really curious about. Also I can't wait to try to squeeze into that back seat!
EXTERIOR: I like it. A nice classy look that’s different, but evolutionary from the IS300 (drop nose, stumpy butt, small dimensions, chronograph-inspired dials). Straight on the IS is aggressive and, dare I say, sexy. I love the bulging hood that tapers back along the beltline. The front fenders are flared just enough, while the rear finish the wide, nicely proportioned stance. The roof line rakes back nice and low, finishing off at the flared tail (high tail made it a bit hard to back up, but with the nav, you have a camera). The doors seem a bit too high without anything to break up the clean sheet metal, but that's purely an aesthetic, personal thing for me. The tail lights finish the crease, that started at the nose, very nicely...you don't really appreciate it until in person. The Matador Red Mica is gorgeous, but not my cup of tea. IMHO the spoiler is an absolute must, otherwise the tail looks a bit too stumpy. The view from straight back is a bit too narrow and tall for my taste, but not bad. Overall, the wheelbase seems to be plenty long, but it isn't fully realized inside. The wheel styles are nice, but somewhat forget table. Assessment = a classy, sporty design with few styling quirks/miscues a winner.
INTERIOR: Once again I like it. The "boy toy" look of the 300's chronograph was too much, but they've kept the theme, updated it, classed it up nicely. The materials, of course, are flawless, as long as they are durable. The stack without the Nav looks good, but I prefer it with the system. Unlike BMWs, the stereo and HVAC functions were not washed out by my UV-rated shades. I like the small bit of wood trim, but prefer the metallic finish in sport package. The seats were comfortable and supportive. This is one area I feel that they trumped BMW. I'm 6'1"/205lbs and the 330i's sport seats are too confining, unnecessarily so, on my sides, while not providing much more lateral support than the IS. I wish the seats had a tilt feature versus just up and down, but I found a way to make it all work. I think it’s an absolute must to have the tilt and telescopic found in the Luxury or Sport packages...I can't believe it's not standard on all models. I like one touch windows, but I had to fight them when I wanted them to stop anywhere other than full up/down; it can easily be done once you learn to pull just a slight detent less than all out...it was more frustrating than it should have been. The sunroof functions were easy and rewarding, and my head didn't touch it. I thought that teh cool rake of the windshield intruded a bit towards my head inside, but it wasn't a big factor. There was enough leg room and the well was appropriate for the segment. If I do decide to go with the 330i, you can bet i-drive will stay back in Munich, but if I head over to Lexus the 5th Gen Nav system is coming with me! The basic stereo was good, and I can't imagine how AWESOME the ML set-up is. Now, to the biggest downfall of the IS and what may very well cost it teh chance to reside in my garage...the back seat. I liked what someone said before Lexus should have gone ahead and made the IS a coupe, a PERFECT assessment! I do have a tendency to push my seat back fairly far, but I was still able to get behind the seat easily in the 330i. If I sat up straighter, I think my hair/head would have touched the headliner due to the sunroof. I couldn't get behind the seat in the IS at all! Even my 6 yr old's shoes were touching the back on the seat. I think they did a POOR job of utilizing the interior space. Now, on the other hand, I don't care too much about the backseat because I don't travel with too many other folks in the car with me I'm driving, so who cares. However, when I get my next car, I'm going to want to drive it ALL the time/everywhere for that matter. Assessment = a very nice interior if you ignore the back seat situation, just OK if you don’t....passes the grade, but not necessarily a winner.
DRIVING: I think they made a HUGE mistake by only offering the MT in the 250, the version they think they'll sell the most of, and not the 350. They have produced an impressive transmission, but like some of you, I like to be immersed in the driving experience. I do have to admit that I had some fun with the F1 style paddles. I REALLY "got on it" around a corner, shifting gears and ripping up the pavement all as one cohesive unit a few times...BIG FUN!!! I did sense the car trying to keep me in line, but it wasn't too much interference. As a whole, I usually argue that the BMW makes you part of the driving experience, while Lexus removes you from it...I think the 330i still does a better job of doing so, but the IS is much better than I thought it would be. I read about the IS' skittishness on wet pavement, but I’ll have to take them both back out, back-to-back, in one of those days. The IS did remove me from the road more than the Bimmer, but not near as much as I expected based on all the forums I read. I felt connected, particularly when I used the paddles for shifts, while feeling the road just enough. I like the fact that the transmission will let you push the revs to the limit, but jumps in at redline before you screw things up. I often switched back to the manual function on the AT stick, just because I'm used to having my hand down there and it shifted just as well. I LOVE MTs, that's all there is too it, but this is the nicest automatic set up I’ve come across better than that offered by BMW. The car handled well, with enough road feel and little or no hop when “getting on it.” It’s also fast as sin! I hit the highway and was blasting along with endless amounts of engine left to go .potential for many tickets in the future. Assessment = Much more fun than I expected. Fun to drive, comfortable, powerful power and an impressive automatic...a winner, but not quite aimed at the same bullseye, but it is the same target, as BMW.
COST: I’m not going to get into the [non-permissible content removed]-for-tat that usually goes on in these forums, but here’s how I see it. An loaded IS350 compared to a loaded 330i/Ci, will be roughly the same (mid-40s), with a few more/user-friendly toys
Also, how did you like the brakes? I though they were awesome! Of all the things on the car, that was what surprised me the most.
I will still say this: an IS350 with Nav/ML as the only option can be had for under $40K, and that car with 325HP (306HP by new SAE rating) is a mighty car to own and drive. Where else would you get a 300+HP car for under $40K ??? Does the TL or G or 330i have a dual vvt-i with direct injection ? Nope. We are talking state-of-the-art engine here, backed up with the legendary Lexus reliability, all in a sleek new skin.
As to lack of an MT, if there are that many MT requests Lexus will put one in, maybe MY2007, if demand is that high. But, let's face it, 99% of drivers want a slush box. And with the F1-like paddle shifter, you can enjoy the best of all worlds...And the VDIM is not as aggressive as some of you would like us to believe. Personally, I want all the gizmos in my car... This is the 21st century afterall, not 19th Century where some would like it to be...the old way
Numerous times at 50-60 mph I tried to drop from 5/6th to 3rd and I felt the system took forever and a day to get down to 3rd. All the people complimenting the automanual feature, did you attempt a multiple click downshift?
I ask as this is common practice for me on the freeway or even around town.
Does it occur to you that not everyone on this board live in the U.S.? Actually, I live in Canada, where Bimmer 323 is offered.
I fully agree that customers will be better served if more car body/engine/equipment combos are offered. I just tried to state that Lexus obviously made more money by limiting the total combo number.
The thing with Lexus is that it tries to lead the market, not just following it. For example, the long term trend is that cars of the future will all be CVT automatic because at that time software control simply beats human control. Likewise, cars will use hybrid or fuel-cell or superconductor to drive by electric motor. Although the technology is not mature yet. I can see some of the manufactures (like Lexus, MB) are pushing consumers that direction (consider the automatic in 350 and AMGs).
The only time I notice sluggishness heading down the row is when the selected lower gear is at the upper end of the revs for that gear. So unless you were asking for just about redline in 3rd, it should have been not-quite-as-quick-as-SMG, but with a slightly annoying softness (as opposed to authority).
It's not great that way anyhow. Where it's useful is holding a lower gear as opposed to hunting, and I use it for modest compression braking.
At 60 mph, a drop to 3rd should be the middle of the rev range - it's gotta be good to 85-90 mph.
Haven't found anything as intoxicating as the instant shifts on the DSG though. My god that's heavenly..
BMW’s packages are more reasonable. Now if you are insistent on ordering everything you’re in Mid to high 40's.
Difference is I can stay in high 30's ordering the vehicle the way I want. I can’t with
The IS 350.
The IS 350 makes you take packages of 6-7K to get items you want along with items you might not need. So you're stuck Mid 40's unless you take next to nothing.
That is the true difference, and along with the driving experience, is still too much
for me to go with Lexus. I do agree, this IS 350 has narrowed difference much better than in the past, now if they would only pick and choose items, a la carte, and not force these expensive packages down our throats, the gap will then be almost negligible..
I just went through this exercise with a Lexus salesperson, who tried to compare the two.
He priced out his IS 350, then priced out online a BMW equivalent, according to him, with options I didn’t want.
I removed some items, and he couldn’t remove them from his package, so the BMW that I put together was 4K under his Lexus.!!!!
I do agree Lexus packages are very unreasonable. Hope they will fix this.
But still
Base IS < Base BMW 3
Fully loaded< Fully loaded BMW 3
Impala 300+ hp under 30K.
Chrysler 300C (hemi) 33K MSRP,
Infiniti G35 6M MSRP 31K (ok that was 298hp but close),
Nissan 350Z 28K+
Volvo S60R 38K
Subaru WRX Ti 32K
Pontiac GTO 400hp 32K
Probably a few more
Though not all up the Lexus quality/standards but the hp is there.
The handling of the IS 250AWD was good. The suspension was great, and very comfortable. There was very little body roll. The brakes were great and there was very little nose dive.
Finally, probably the only thing I didnt like was the engine. No, it is NOT underpowered overall. But at the beginning before the power kicks in the engine feels slow and lazy. After you speed up the engine is very smooth and powerful.
I was very satisfied
I also test drove the 325i on the same day, but I am not going to post that review in here.
P.S even the BMW salesguy said that Lexus did a good job with the IS.
Note that no one is complaining that the BMW 330i and 530i have the same engine.
why not?
Lexus should use the GS 300 engine...
As for the AT it's not the same as a sequential manual in performance. I have to second BGDC assessment of the Audi DSG. It's as smooth as an AT in Drive but you will know it's no automatic when you shift through several gears quickly. The SMG 2 in the M3 is nice also although quite a bit rougher than the DSG. It will jerk you around sometimes during shifting on the quickest settings.
As for the engine if I'm not mistaken the BMW 3L has direct injection also.