Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

maxhonda99

"Oh, like the rise of hybrids (and current silly backlash against them), I see and hear more and more from people about Diesel."

Backlash against Hybrids?? Where. I guess it's something you're seeing but I'm missing. Same with Diesels. All my friends and various family members are car nuts, none of them talk about diesels. And if Diesel's were such a big deal, wouldn't we see both Mercedes & VW building more of their Diesel offerings for current consumption?? You make it seem like demand is outstripping supply for Diesels in the US. Which it clearly is not. I would say that Diesels are definately gaining popularity, but not as fast as you're making it seem. And as lexusguy said, a Diesel with HSD would be ideal once the oil giants figure out how to make Diesel clean burning. That I would buy, a Hybrid giving tons of torque and upwards of 50MPG.

"visit a VW forum and ask about the TDI...they worship it.. "

And it's probably the same 10 people who worship it over and over. You know like on Edmunds, it's a few people who post over and over and over.

"Why be such a naysayer? What's the beef against diesel? Do you dislike engines that last far longer than gas gobblers? lower torque of gas engines? less efficiency? "

As I said before, I would consider one, but not right now. Once oil companies make cleaner burning diesel(as clean or cleaner than gas) and car manufacturer's make more variety I'll think about it. As far as the engines lasting longer? Really? how long do you need a engine to last? Gas engines are ridiculously trouble free today to begin with and will last the life of the car, so I see this as a mute issue. As for less efficiency. Gas may be less efficient, but diesel is still worse today to the enviroment.

shipo

"You make it seem like demand is outstripping supply for Diesels in the US. Which it clearly is not."

Hmmm, well what does it say about the demand for diesels when the Mercedes E320 was selling with mild discounts while the E320 CDI was selling with some hefty "Dealer Premiums" tacked onto the MSRP? To my way of thinking at least, that implies that there aren't enough diesels being brought in to the U.S. to meet the demand.

Then again you might say, "Mercedes has always had a fairly loyal following of Diesel fanatics, so that is a bad indicator." Fair enough, what about the Jetta? According to the TMV here at Edmunds, the Jetta GLS w/Leather has the following valuations:

$21,385 -- MSRP
$19,560 -- Invoice
$19,016 -- TMV

On the other hand, the Jetta GLS TDI w/Leather has these valuations:

$22,405 -- MSRP
$20,902 -- Invoice
$22,085 -- TMV

Hmmm, the gas fired Jetta is selling for more that $500 below invoice while the diesel fired Jetta is selling for nearly MSRP. Nuff said.

Best Regards,
Shipo

gee35coupe

And diesel ones are a lot rarer. Supply vs. demand. Odysseys were selling for MSRP for a long time due to lack of supply. If they could produce 200,000 of them a year I'm sure the price would have been much cheaper.

As was said earlier VW sends many fewer oil burners here. Then when you divide that by trim, tranny, and option type, the choices are even slimmer. Price would therefore be higher.

maxhonda99

"Hmmm, well what does it say about the demand for diesels when the Mercedes E320 was selling with mild discounts while the E320 CDI was selling with some hefty "Dealer Premiums" tacked onto the MSRP?"

Again, what does that mean when you're not making many diesels anyway?? The E320 CDI production is probably what, 10% or probably less of total production for the US market? Read Gee35coupe's response in the last post. It doesn't mean much when their are 50K gas E-classes sold and there are only 5K diesels for the market. Same for the Jetta. Do you think if MB imported 30,000 E320CDI's to the US they would still be selling at or near MSRP??

blueguydotcom

here are quite a few interesting article's in this months C&D about this very subject. One is about a new type of gasoline engine that is able to use both the gasoline and diesel type of combustion methods and switch on the fly depending on engine workload. There are only very early tests at this point, but supposedly this new engine design is actually as much as 10% more efficient than a diesel engine while running on gasoline, and without requiring forced induction.

that sounds like a sweet compromise.

Lexus/Toyota will probably be first to market with something that inegious. Everybody else will stand around gawking...like the industry is doing with hybrids.

blueguydotcom

Backlash against Hybrids?? Where. I guess it's something you're seeing but I'm missing.
you haven't seen all the articles berating hybrids because they aren't delivering the epa figures? Shrug. many of the articles originate from...shocker...detroit. Hardcore suv and america-firsters are using this as an opp to tear down the tech. Seriously, I find it weird too.

Same with Diesels. All my friends and various family members are car nuts, none of them talk about diesels. And if Diesel's were such a big deal, wouldn't we see both Mercedes & VW building more of their Diesel offerings for current consumption?? You make it seem like demand is outstripping supply for Diesels in the US. Which it clearly is not.

Demand is outstripping supply. That's not to say 5 million people want to line up for them. Maybe only 2 million do. MB and VW are importing enough to keep demand high. This is how good manufacturers work...witness the mini. If you produce more than people want, you end up with Camcords sitting on lots. So demand is high v. supply but at this time the average american carbuyer isn't searching for diesel. Yet. Give it time. The new diesels are so much more advanced than the cars of the 70s/80s that with time people will see the benefits.

Diesel with HSD would be ideal once the oil giants figure out how to make Diesel clean burning. That I would buy, a Hybrid giving tons of torque and upwards of 50MPG.

totally agree there. MB has shown off some diesel hybrids at car shows. in fact it was either mb or audi (audi i believe) who just two days ago announced a new v8 diesel that was putting down monster acceleration numbers.

And it's probably the same 10 people who worship it over and over. You know like on Edmunds, it's a few people who post over and over and over.

I wasn't suggesting this forum. I meant a real VW forum.

As far as the engines lasting longer? Really? how long do you need a engine to last? Gas engines are ridiculously trouble free today to begin with and will last the life of the car, so I see this as a mute issue. As for less efficiency. Gas may be less efficient, but diesel is still worse today to the enviroment.

I haven't experienced trouble free modern engines... i own german cars. Really though getting 300-400k out of a diesel - even 20 years ago -is not unusual. Often the physical car will fall apart before the engine will.

As for pollutants. I'm not really concerned about the environment, to be honest. If the government gave a damn and pushed cafe standards up - something clinton and bush never did. I might be more interested. if we were making serious pushes into solar, wind, wave tech, I'd be right there with ya. but our government cares so little about energy consumption that I'm just curious about ways to ease up on my pocketbook. not to get political but it seems like the government is on the side of oil producers and have very little interest in helping the consumers get more clean, efficient fuel for our energy dollar.

mackabee

I thought this was the Lexus IS forum. Sorry for interrupting.
Mackabee

blueguydotcom

I get that we wandered off topic but you know what, this forum has been dead for weeks. At least we're interacting and everybody is being pretty darn nice too. It's a nice shift for this group. We're talking, not entirely about the lexus but we are still edging it in and we're saying something beyond insults.

It could be much worse.

If you got something to say about the IS, then say it...

shipo

"Read Gee35coupe's response in the last post. It doesn't mean much when their are 50K gas E-classes sold and there are only 5K diesels for the market. Same for the Jetta. Do you think if MB imported 30,000 E320CDI's to the US they would still be selling at or near MSRP??"

I think that you took my post out of context. I was responding to your comment that said, "You make it seem like demand is outstripping supply for Diesels in the US. Which it clearly is not." Well, based upon the numbers it clearly looks to me like "Demand is outstripping supply", otherwise the sale prices wouldn't be as high as they are. The quantities are low to be sure, but the point is that at those low numbers, there appear to be more buyers than cars. Now, if you had said something like, "You make it seem like demand would outstrip supply for Diesels in the US, regardless of how many were imported. Clearly that is not going to be the case anytime soon, if ever." Then I would have agreed with your statement one hundred percent. :shades:

Best Regards,
Shipo

biker4

Since the engine technology between gas and diesel is converging somewhat (both using direct injection) this news is not that surprising.
There could be a day when you could put just about any combustible fuel in your tank and the electronics will figure out how to best burn it in the engine.

Again, my prediction - 08 IS220d w/ 6MT (same as the European one coming out in about 6 months) starting at $31,990.

lexusguy

Isnt positve.. at all. "Only 40,224 diesel cars were sold here in the 2004 model year. As a share of the nearly 8 million car market, diesels round off to one half of one percent. In other words, zero".

Patrick Bedard then mentions the V-10 diesel toureg, and praises it, until he gets to the price tag, $65 thousand, a $10K hike over a comparable V8 version. "The V-10 was available for only part of the model year; 511 were sold".

"The EPA mileage of the V-10 is 17\23 vs. 14\21 for the Hemi-powered JGC. When I filled the tank at the end of my journey, I paid $2.10. Premium was $2.02, regular was 20 cents less. Oops! Pay more for the optional engine, then pay more for fuel too? Where's the economy in that? When I went by my local Mobil station yesterday, diesel was 15 cents above premium, 35 above regular. According to the department of energy, retail prices of diesel moved consistently above gasoline starting last July".

"Diesel boosters cite Europe, where 43 percent of new cars are diesels; 57 percent of Mercedes-Benz cars sold there are diesels. We'll follow, they say. No, we wont. Most of Europe gives a tax break for diesel fuel, resulting in diesel prices up to 40 percent lower than gasoline in Poland, for example, more like 10 percent in Germany, and no benefit in Switzerland. No surprise that diesels dont do well in Switzerland."

"The headwind against diesels here will only get stronger. US sales of the '05 and '06 Toureg V-10 were suspended in March. The EPA didnt approve of VW's plan for emmisions control. VW says they will have the technology needed to meet the even tougher 2007 regulations, which allow about 1\4 of the NOx Europe permits now, and just 40 percent of the particulates. However, neither VW nor any other car maker I talked to has actually met the numbers in high mileage test cars".

"It's hard to see the payback on a 2007 diesel car in the US in less than 200,000 miles (because of the at least $5K cost over a gas engine due to the emissions regulations). Thats efficiency you couldnt sell at gunpoint. And every cent that diesel fuel rises above gasoline pushes the payback out further."

rotoryfan

Biker4, I noticed your flag icon - are you in Switzerland?

Did you get a chance to see the IS at the auto show? Are you a potential European customer/do you think Lexus will be successful with their push for more marketshare there?

P.S. I enjoyed the skiing in Zermatt and St. Moritz (and the view from Piz Nair) 3 months ago.

biker4

Yes, I saw the IS (the IS220d that is) - very nice.I'll be moving to the US - so I'm not interested in a European model.

Diesels sell just fine in Switzerland - but not at the levels in other parts of the Europe because as the article pointed out - the diesel subsidy is less here than in the rest of Europe.

The article points out one thing that is true as far as diesels chances of grabbing a bigger share of the pie - the economics must make sense. The Touraeg has two strikes against it - the V10 diesel is being compared to the 6 cyl in the base vehicle and the V10 is packaged in such a way as to have a 10K premium over the gas model. On top of that you have the increasing cost of diesel and the economics of diesels for that model don't look good.

But that is not to say that the picture is the same for all models. In general, models in which similar engines/packaging is available (like the E320) the price diff between gas and diesel engines is less than $1K. If the price of gas and diesel fuel is the same, the payback from the milage gains is less than 2 years.

Those two factors will drive sales. Packaging and price diff between gas-diesel. If models will be available similarly packaged and the only diff is the engine and price of the two fuels is the same - diesel will sell. If any one of those two factors make the payback of the diesel more than 3-4 years out, they won't sell - very simple economics.

For the IS, assuming diesel and premium gas (cause the gas version needs it) are the same price, an IS220d will sell if it's less than $1K above a similar IS250.

Kirstie_H

Just because you feel a discussion is "dead" doesn't mean you can talk about anything you like. If there's nothing to say about the IS, then take the off-topic conversation elsewhere.

davidd3

Let's get the discussion back on track.

Does anyone have more specific information about the timing for the 2006 IS to go on sale? First I heard "Fall." Then I heard "October." Shouldn't we have better info by now?

The timing is critical for me being I am coming off-lease a G35 lease in mid-September. The lessor, Chase, told me that they will extend my lease for 1 month as a courtesy but absolutely no longer than that. I am hoping that this car hits the dealerships in time for me to consider it. I just about fell in love with it at the NY Auto Show last month.

blueguydotcom

You could try talking lexus into loaning you a car if you put down some of the dough on a new IS. I've heard of Bimmer dealers doing this when someone orders but the car won't arrive and the buyer is carless.

davidd3

Thanks for your suggestion. I will explore the possibility. I really want to find some sensible way to buy more time so that I can consider the new IS as my next car.

lenscap

Everything I have heard from my dealer and read indicates an October 1 launch date.

davidd3

Thanks for the encouraging info.

stickguy

worst comes to worse, rent a car for a few weeks. Probably won't cost much more than your lease payments anyway (although it might not be as nice).

davidd3

Thanks for your suggestion. I will explore that option too. But rental cars are quite expensive in the NYC area, especially once you step up in size. I'm not sure if I could get a decent monthly rate. But it is something to look into.

rotoryfan

From an article on the web...

"Japan’s Future Rockets: Uber-Lexus IS...in the wings: At the Geneva Motor Show in March, Lexus launched its new BMW fighters, the IS models, introducing the V6-powered IS 250 and IS 350. But is there another IS that will punch the performance even higher? Rumors from Japan point to a high-performance uber-IS powered by a modified 4.3-liter V8 producing 400 hp, but speculation also suggests a possible 3.5-liter hybrid with equal pulling power. At the same time, the German automotive press is going gaga over word that Lexus has registered the name “IS460”—suggesting the possibility of an even more powerful autobahner with a 4.6-liter V8 under the hood. Recent photos from the Nürburgring show a disguised Lexus IS prototype with twin exhaust pipes, a hood vent and upturned trunk lid, all indicating this is the high-performance IS 430, if not the bolder IS 460. "

lexusguy

I'm pretty sure the IS V8 will be using at least the 4.6L engine. Lexus has traditionally used the same V8 engine with all of its cars. When LS400 became LS430, the GS was updated as well. When the LS becomes LS460, the GS and most likely IS should follow suit as well.

Regardless, I'm very interested to see what Infiniti does here. Even the IS350 should have more power than the G35 6MT, and its become pretty clear that Infiniti doesnt like being in second place when it comes to power. Toyota has traditionally stayed on the sidelines while Nissan and Honda duked it out, but apparently no more.

blueguydotcom

gotta expect nissan can tweak 10-20 more hp out of the 3.5.

lexusguy

Yes Im sure thats true. Its very impressive that Nissan and Toyota can now join Porsche in being able to get over 300hp in normally aspirated 6 cylinder engines. Infiniti may just use the GT-R coupe to compete with an IS460\500.

blueguydotcom

Yes Im sure thats true. Its very impressive that Nissan and Toyota can now join Porsche in being able to get over 300hp in normally aspirated 6 cylinder engines. Infiniti may just use the GT-R coupe to compete with an IS460\500.

It is? BMW's M3 CSL has a 3.2 that pumps out over 350 hp. Not impressed at all by a 3.5 that puts on 300. Haven't seen a dyno yet of the new 3.0 in the e90 but I'd bet that the car is really putting down 240-250 whp as BMW and VW/Audi have a tendency to underrate their engines (the new Audi/VW 2.0 is really pumping 220 hp, not the 200 hp mentioned in the literature).

Still, regardless of Autoweek's article, I'm not convinced of either the GT-R or IS430/460. I'll believe it when I see it...

gee35coupe

The Japanese engines are bargains compared to the German ones. I mean the G35 can be had for less than $30K(theoretically). I mean MOST 3 series 3.?L engines are nowhere near the specific output of Toyota, Lexus, Infiniti engines. And even then, you PAY for the Bimmers. I mean the Accord 3.0 puts out an underrated 240hp and C@D had an article a few years back where Honda R@D had a 3.0 with 300hp.

If Lexus can get the "over 300 hp" IS350 for less the $40k even in "base" form it'll be quite a coup.

shipo

"I mean MOST 3 series 3.?L engines are nowhere near the specific output of Toyota, Lexus, Infiniti engines."

Is that so? Have you ever dynoed either? Certainly what you say is true "on paper", however, real world driving experiences suggest otherwise. Then there is the issue of just how much fuel is required to do what. It seems that the BMW engines are absolute fuel mizers when compared to similar displacement and similar performing Infiniti and Lexus engines. Yes, the technology required to develop and manufacture a high performance engine that is economical as well ain't cheap. Then again, what is these days. :-/

Best Regards,
Shipo

gee35coupe

It is more efficient AND performed as advertised. Try a google. It's easy to find. For that matter so has the TL. 3.2L, 270hp, some on Edmunds can get 30mpg. My dad has a prev generation TL-S and gets up to 34MPG. That's better than my SI and almost good as our EX-L 5 speed Accord.

I have confidence Toyota can manage to get the IS250 in at 200hp and mid 20'sMPG. As long as the price doesn't get much higher than $33K reasonably equipped, I'm in. I mean Acura can sell the TSX for $27 loaded. A $5,000 premium for RWD and similar hp/displacement V6 sounds reasonable.

shipo

That's it! No new IS350 or 330i in my future. I'm gettin' an Accord.

Best Regards,
Shipo

gee35coupe

You won't be the first.

shipo

Sorry, I forgot to put an emoticon at the end of my post. :P

A CamCord has yet to be built that could audition for a space in my garage, efficient engine or no. I've had the displeasure of riding in enough of them to know that they are the poster children of the milquetoast family car segment. No thanks.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

I'm not referring to cost. Someone mentioned 3 liter engines and Porsche and Lexus as if they'd done something special getting 300 hp out of 3.5 and 3.6 liter engines. I merely pointed out that's not an impressive feat.

Remember, someone else wrote Porsche..obviously a more expensive engine than japanese makes too.

anythngbutgm

33k for an IS250 is a tough sell when a TL can be had for that... I WILL be comparing these two when the IS comes out. In fact I won't buy a new vehicle until I give the IS250 a chance. I am crossing my fingers that this thing delivers, because I was hooked ever since I saw the IS in NY. At the moment, the Redondo Red TL 6-spd is at the absolute top of my list...

Come'on Lexus, knock this one out of the park!!!

gee35coupe

Making it "affordable" is. Especially affordable, easy to maintain, and "Toyota-grade" reliable.

sorter

That is not fair since there is none out there can claim Toyota-grade. Especially Lexus grade.

I have heard the production date for IS 6AT and 6MT are different, so you might have to wait a few more weeks for the MT. Nevertheless, the BMW era has past, ever since the G35. The TL, and now IS is just more stepping on a already deadbody- and may I add the new 3 styling is really a flop.

The question remines, Can Toyota win F1 and release a prodtuction version of 911 killer at the same year?

gee35coupe

The VQ is very reliable. Infiniti's, Nissan, Acura, Honda all have V6 models with great initial and long term reliability and high specific output. I haven't heard of any problems out of any of the V6 engines.

Toyota/Lexus may be a little late in the 3.5L/300hp game, but other Japanese engines with similar hp/liter have been out for a few years now. And like I said, if they can keep the 2.5L/200+hp below $33k and the "base" 3.5L/300+hp IS below $40k, it'll be an awesome feat.

drfill

I'd LOVE to join you dancing on BMW's grave, but until Lexus picks up the ball it dropped (The MT), and SLAMS IT like Dwayne Wade in the right car (The 350) :shades: for the right price (within $1k of a 330i), the 3 will still be the Beast of the Blacktop!

Anything

If 200HP klnocks it out of your park, G-- Bless ya! I play in a bigger park, and I think the wind is blowing in.

So far, Lexus is stealing signs, but still only fouls it off! Frustrating! :mad:

DrFill

shipo

"...and may I add the new 3 styling is really a flop."

Hehe. Yeah, that's why it's selling in record numbers. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

lexusguy

OK OK I forgot the M3. Sheez. Still, that makes FOUR automakers that can get over 300hp from a normally aspirated 6. I still think its pretty impressive. Audi and M-B cant match it. Neither can any of the US big 3.

"VW/Audi have a tendency to underrate their engines (the new Audi/VW 2.0 is really pumping 220 hp, not the 200 hp mentioned in the literature)."

Am I supposed to be impressed by a 2.0L turbo four with "just" 220hp? Even if Mitsubishi is not underrating their engine, the Lancer Evo's 2.0L four makes 220hp seem pretty pathetic.

merc1

I would say Audi and MB really haven't tried as far as a six goes. MB goes for torque more than hp in their hi-po motors. Audi does have a n/a 4.2L V8 that makes around 420hp in the RS4 so the ability is there.

M

lexusguy

Well, I'm just talking about whats on sale right this minute. If Audi can get 255hp out of a 3.1L, FSI V6, then Im sure another .4L of displacement could manage at least 300. But, you cant buy a 3.5L Audi. Same with BMW.

merc1

I can't imagine how much hp BMW would be able to get out of a 3.5L I6 tuned the Motorsport way. It'd be like a TVR I6.

M

lexusguy

I'm sure it would be loads, if the M3's engine is anything to go by. What is the displacement of VW's new VR6 engine going into the Passat?

merc1

I think its a 3.6L engine for the Passat. There has been nothing on this engine so far and since its supposed to be a U.S. exclusive I guess we'll find out closer to Passat launch time. It's kinda like the IS350's V6. Shrouded in mystery so far.

M

anythngbutgm

I meant the overall package of Luxury, ammenities, smoothness, and a gearbox that rivals the last 5 Honda's I've had. A real Homerun for the Lexus is in the overall package.

IS250 and IS350 better deliver. For me if I want the stick, I have to count on the IS250. That's why I compared it to the TL, because right now the Acura is at the top of my list. However, I would accept a 200+hp V6 and REAR drive in place of a 270hp FRONT driver for (around) the same price. :shades:

lexusguy

No G35 6MT? The TL's 270hp combined with the stick simply overwhelm the front wheels. Its not quite a 9-3 Viggen, but it has some of the worst torque steer in a car you can buy today.

anythngbutgm

No knock on the G, but I'm not really a fan of the exterior styling on the Sedan. The coupe is gorgeous (although the wheelbase is a bit long) but with a future family, it'll be tough putting the little ones in the back of a coupe. and as far as interiors go, I think Lexus and Acura are also a notch above the Infiniti lines. The new IS interior looks stunning, especially compared to the old one. No knock on the proven VQ, great motor. :shades:

gee35coupe

If you want a familiy sedan with sporting aspirations. If you lay off the gas from startup you'll have no problem with torque steer. RWD cars overwhelm their tires too. They oversteer and spin out and all. You have to do the same there, just take your foot off the gas pedal.

While I would also like a RWD car, considering the power for the price, foul weather advantages, and space efficiency of FWD, I'll be the first to admit RWD is a want and hard to justify when you look at a car for what it is. A way to get from one place to another.

drfill

EVERY car in this class lacks something. I'd rather lack a little in interior exterior styling (G35), than a lack a lot of heart (IS). You can get smoothness in a Camry, amenities in a Jetta, handling in a Mazda3.

The IS is a nice tease of a sports sedan. Oh, what coulda been.

DrFill